DM-WaveRider [Alpha 4] [12/4/09]

[rathalos150]

Thread temporarily closed.

[»TheHitMan«]

Screens please?

[rathalos150]

Screens please?

Well that's embarrassing :P I uploaded some screenies for ya

[SEBASTIEN-NOVA]

link broken...

[rathalos150]

The link should be working now

[SEBASTIEN-NOVA]

The link should be working now

yep !

I take a look, and give feedbacks later

[rathalos150]

yep !

I take a look, and give feedbacks later

Thanks, It would mean a lot if some of the regulars on the forums like you or steve would give some good feedback. I look forward to some tough criticism.

[stevelois]

Thanks, It would mean a lot if some of the regulars on the forums like you or steve would give some good feedback. I look forward to some tough criticism.

Yup, I'll check it out this week mate.

At first sight, why the middle of the map is so open since there isn't anything special in the center ?

It would be cool to have some sort of bridge to travel from the vials path to the other side where your aiming with the stinger in the first pic.

Keep in mind that you can't add a plethora of mesh with a open layout like this or else you will affect FPS badly. Like in Aly, I'm at 650 millions triangle with my latest build which is the average trianglecount for stock maps. Just an advice to keep in mind when you'll start meshing the level

[rathalos150]

It would be cool to have some sort of bridge to travel from the vials path to the other side where your aiming with the stinger in the first pic.

My plan for the map is to be able to quickly run along the rooftops for good sniping. I plan on having a few ways to get up to the rooftops and from there you will be able to run anywhere in the map quickly. Unfortunately I don't plan on adding a bridge to the roof from that point because you can already get up to the roof through a window right next to there. But after all it is pretty hard to know everything about map from just pics.

Keep in mind that you can't add a plethora of mesh with a open layout like this or else you will affect FPS badly. Like in Aly, I'm at 650 millions triangle with my latest build which is the average trianglecount for stock maps. Just an advice to keep in mind when you'll start meshing the level

Well in actuality it's much better to have a large number of static meshes than bsp materials. A static mesh is only rendered once in the unreal engine, After the first time one is rendered it is given a small piece of code that corresponds to it such as the number "1". Instead of having to render all of the lines of code the mesh should take up, all your video card has to render is the number "1". This doesn't mean that it doesn't slow down performance, because it still renders lighting. But I don't plan on overloading the map with too many meshes.

Thanks for the insightful comments and I hope you can take a look at the map soon.

[stevelois]

Just try the map,

When you publish an alpha, even if it's very early, make sure that proper bot pathing is there, same as ammos, health, armor. I can't really recommend anything because the spot I would see a medium health can also be good for a small armor, etc. Don't forget that alpha's are for testing gameplay. By not putting anything for testing the layout since there isn't any other thing that weapon base, we just can't help you about the gameplay.

Take note that the majority of DM players don't like vehicle in DM & you put 2 scorpions. There mainly useless since the terrain isn't vehicle friendly at all with the majority of paths built in narrow corridors.

The size of the map is rather big, to big imo & could be cut by 50% easily. Also make sure that every sector as is purpose, navigating in corridors ain't fun if there is nothing to collect.

I'm not a fan of weapon in double for several reasons. Each weapon must have is unique spots & try to make the spot unique is better for gameplay & flow than having the same thing in double. There is enough item in this game to not to have them in double & make there use worthy.

I like some part of the layout & found others rather useless or not worthy. Personally what I would do is :

- Get rid of the vehicles / avril.
- Reduce the layout size by at least 50%.
- Place all weapon base (1 of each ofc) + all armors + all health.

The part that like is the tower & the main in the middle of the map.

Hope it help.

[rathalos150]

Just try the map,

When you publish an alpha, even if it's very early, make sure that proper bot pathing is there, same as ammos, health, armor. I can't really recommend anything because the spot I would see a medium health can also be good for a small armor, etc. Don't forget that alpha's are for testing gameplay. By not putting anything for testing the layout since there isn't any other thing that weapon base, we just can't help you about the gameplay.

Take note that the majority of DM players don't like vehicle in DM & you put 2 scorpions. There mainly useless since the terrain isn't vehicle friendly at all with the majority of paths built in narrow corridors.

The size of the map is rather big, to big imo & could be cut by 50% easily. Also make sure that every sector as is purpose, navigating in corridors ain't fun if there is nothing to collect.

I'm not a fan of weapon in double for several reasons. Each weapon must have is unique spots & try to make the spot unique is better for gameplay & flow than having the same thing in double. There is enough item in this game to not to have them in double & make there use worthy.

I like some part of the layout & found others rather useless or not worthy. Personally what I would do is :

- Get rid of the vehicles / avril.
- Reduce the layout size by at least 50%.
- Place all weapon base (1 of each ofc) + all armors + all health.

The part that like is the tower & the main in the middle of the map.

Hope it help.

Whoa, tons of stuff in that post I'll keep the majority of that in mind for my future maps. I'm still a beginning mapper. (you have a good few years on me with the unreal editor)
I wasn't sure if i should have put the scorpions in the map from the beginning but I was planning on making another version of the map for ctf play.
I think the map is rather large and I didn't plan on it being as big as it is. For some odd reason everything seems smaller when I test the map in the editor. Do you know of a way to downsize the entire map at one time or should I just make a few different layouts and see which I like best?

Thanks for the insightful info.

[stevelois]

Whoa, tons of stuff in that post I'll keep the majority of that in mind for my future maps. I'm still a beginning mapper. (you have a good few years on me with the unreal editor)

Bah, it's nothing mate BTW, I'm not a skillful mapper, I'm more a tester than a mapper & I'm mapping only since 1.5 year lol But THX for the compliment

I wasn't sure if i should have put the scorpions in the map from the beginning but I was planning on making another version of the map for ctf play. I think the map is rather large and I didn't plan on it being as big as it is. For some odd reason everything seems smaller when I test the map in the editor. Do you know of a way to downsize the entire map at one time or should I just make a few different layouts and see which I like best?

Thanks for the insightful info.

Well to help you out with the map size, the way I proceed, I put a character in the room, it's available somewhere in the character package. I put several of them so that give me a rough measure of the size I'll be into when playing. Also, I use a grid of 32 most of the time & take note that small corridors are about 256 uu wide

You can't dowsize a map afaik since it's bsp geometry. I would tend to put a huge mesh at the sectors you don't want to access and after that work on the remaining sectors and enhance them. When the layout is finish get rid of the mesh & the no good sectors & do a rough BSP layout of what you like. There is many ways of working, this is only 1 suggestion.

Another note, there is CTF rules & building a DM level to convert it in CTF after isn't very the way to go unless your very experimented. DM & CTF players don't play the same way so the strategic aspect of the map isn't the same at all and all items must be greatly thought before placing them. In the contrary of DM where it's most of the time FFA maps (Free For All type) you must balance all items directly at the alpha stage or else the map won't be as good as it deserve in the first place.

Glad to help you out mate.

[rathalos150]

Bah, it's nothing mate BTW, I'm not a skillful mapper, I'm more a tester than a mapper & I'm mapping only since 1.5 year lol But THX for the compliment



Well to help you out with the map size, the way I proceed, I put a character in the room, it's available somewhere in the character package. I put several of them so that give me a rough measure of the size I'll be into when playing. Also, I use a grid of 32 most of the time & take note that small corridors are about 256 uu wide

You can't dowsize a map afaik since it's bsp geometry. I would tend to put a huge mesh at the sectors you don't want to access and after that work on the remaining sectors and enhance them. When the layout is finish get rid of the mesh & the no good sectors & do a rough BSP layout of what you like. There is many ways of working, this is only 1 suggestion.

Another note, there is CTF rules & building a DM level to convert it in CTF after isn't very the way to go unless your very experimented. DM & CTF players don't play the same way so the strategic aspect of the map isn't the same at all and all items must be greatly thought before placing them. In the contrary of DM where it's most of the time FFA maps (Free For All type) you must balance all items directly at the alpha stage or else the map won't be as good as it deserve in the first place.

Glad to help you out mate.

I thought a lot about my map last night (I couldn't sleep) and decided to make a new layout from bsp FROM SCRATCH. There was a laundry list of things I didn't like about my first model.
The map was too symmetrical so I think I will get rid of one side of the map almost completely.
The scale of the map was too big. In the center of the map everything was about the right size but everywhere else I felt like I was shrunk down to a 5 year old's size.
The map wasn't set up for easy and equal access to all of the areas. I found myself taking one or two paths all of the time and forgetting about the other corridors because I had no motivation to go there.

I plan on rebuilding the map from scratch because I can't find a way to easily salvage the current model without sacrificing the few things I like about this model. Alpha 2 here I come :P

[SEBASTIEN-NOVA]

Thanks, It would mean a lot if some of the regulars on the forums like you or steve...

If I still was... lol

I plan on rebuilding the map from scratch because I can't find a way to easily salvage the current model without sacrificing the few things I like about this model. Alpha 2 here I come :P

So I wait the alpha 2 to test it

[rathalos150]

So I wait the alpha 2 to test it

Sounds good. You shouldn't be disappointing either.

I was thinking to myself..."What is the best thing about my map so far? The center area, of course!" So the new model will center on that area in addition to the light house. I only just started the new model and already I can see it will be a winner

[rathalos150]

I finished making my new layout but I still have to finish the bot pathing. Does anyone know a good tutorial for bot pathing? I seem to be having a lot of trouble getting bots to ride elevators.

[SEBASTIEN-NOVA]

Does anyone know a good tutorial for bot pathing? I seem to be having a lot of trouble getting bots to ride elevators.

by assuming you have done the matinee of the elevator correctly, you need "lift center" and "lift exit" actors to make bot take the elevator.

you can find it here:
Generic browser>
navigation point>lift center
navigation point>lift exit

put the lift center on the center of the lift
put the lift exit at the both sides of the entrance of the elevator mover.

don't forget to enter the name of your "lift center" actor on the properties of the 2 lift exit actors.

You can open a stock map to see how set and place it correctly

[rathalos150]

Thanks mate! I'll do my best to finish up the alpha 2 by the end of tomorrow.

[rathalos150]

Oh and Seb, Grats on your 1000'th post!

[rathalos150]

I updated the map to Alpha 2

[stevelois]

Layout look more interesting

Will check it out tonight

[rathalos150]

Layout look more interesting

Will check it out tonight

Thanks mate. Since I have put alpha 2 on filefront I've made a few changes to the layout, but it's generally the same. The large tower's inside wont be the same in the next version.

[stevelois]

A2 feedback,

Keep in mind that testing an alpha is not obvious because everybody as a different POV of this or that. Also, as I might see some great opportunities to enhance the layout but I doesn't necessarily mean that it correspond your goal, take it as a grain of salt.

I played the map with 3 bots, while it's better than the previous version, pickups need to be more splited apart. There is to much concentration of pickups in the middle of the layout & not enough around it so players stays near the flak or high above & snipe.

I'll say what I found better :

- The tower is a good improvement
- The layout where the flak & bio are located is also good
- The open space where you have place the link is good but I would switch with another weapon like the shock, stinger or rl (rocket launcher).

What need improvements :

- The rl placement is no good because it is place to high. It's to hard to kill an enemy from the lower level if you have a sniper guy in 1 side and a rl guy at the other side. You need a hitscan weapon to kill those guy's & while the link is a hitscan weapon miss some fire speed & do not make the player rebound as the shock & stinger do. The rl placement is always more appropriate in a wide open place & on lower / mid level of the map for strategics reasons.

- The vest spot is a good idea but you can collect it only from 1 way. It's not bad but it's always better to have more than 1 way to collect a worthy armor or a powerup.

- The helmet place is not to bad. I mean in that part of the map, it feel ok but since it's on the same level as the weapon base & to close to the vest, players don't need to make a big effort to collect armors. Like if your coming from the sniper tower, you can grab the helmet + the RL + jump down to collect the vest. All that in 1 pass. It's to easy. I'll say leave the helmet on that area of the map but make it harder to collect & set the layout so the players MUST choose to collect the armor OR collect the weapon, not both in 1 pass.

- You need to spread out pickups so players cover all the map, not only some spots. I mark some "X" spots in red where only a ammo / vial would be fine but will make the gameplay better since players will have a purpose of traveling & it's cool for close quarters frag fest It will be better if players could collect stuff all around the map like in the pic on the lower deck where you see that long line of sight there is nothing worthy there.

- Also, medium health are placed on the same height. I suggest you place 1 medium health on each corner of the map since your layout permit it & put some vials in the middle. ATM there is 2 * 50 health & they are to close of each other & there isn't real danger of collecting all that health so yu can jump side to side without taking to much damage & be almost full of health.

- In yellow, I just extend the platform / building size a bit more so players have a bit more space to move & can dodge . It add some cool gameplay.

- The green arrow in the tower is to show that the lift is to close to the exit door. It's always bring better gameplay when player have some space to move when they get out of the lift / teleporter going back & forth instead of just been on the edge of a surface. Just placing the lift in the back of the room will be better.

- The green arrow near the helmet is to show that placing it a bit lower but not like the half the height of where it is would be nicer.



Hope that help.

[rathalos150]

- The open space where you have place the link is good but I would switch with another weapon like the shock, stinger or rl (rocket launcher).

Since I posted Alpha 2 I have changed the link in the center to a shock rifle, But based on what you said later in your post about the rl, I might change the shock to a rl. One problem I can see with this change would be the flak and rl being so so close to each other and because they are both so powerful this would be kinda crazy. I will probably move the flak somewhere else (I still want a flak cannon in the map somewhere) and put a shock in it's place.

- The vest spot is a good idea but you can collect it only from 1 way. It's not bad but it's always better to have more than 1 way to collect a worthy armor or a powerup.

I'm thinking of making a back entrance to that building to help create a second path to the vest. This will also motivate players and bots to go around the edges of the map more.

The green arrow in the tower is to show that the lift is to close to the exit door. It's always bring better gameplay when player have some space to move when they get out of the lift / teleporter going back & forth instead of just been on the edge of a surface. Just placing the lift in the back of the room will be better.

In the version of the map I am currently playing, The towers inside is completely redone (As I mentioned in a previous post) so there is no need to worry about the tower.

- Also, medium health are placed on the same height. I suggest you place 1 medium health on each corner of the map since your layout permit it & put some vials in the middle. ATM there is 2 * 50 health & they are to close of each other & there isn't real danger of collecting all that health so yu can jump side to side without taking to much damage & be almost full of health.

I'll probably delete the medium health locations. In the new tower in my version I have a medium health with ammo pickups on each side. (I might remove the ammo pickups or move them later. I don't really want too much good stuff in one place) In the area with the two medium healths in the building in the back of the map I removed em both because there is already two ammo pickups in the same small room.

Thanks for taking the time to play and comment on my map. Keep your eyes pealed for Alpha 3. I hope I get the gameplay good enough to move on to the beta after that :P

[rathalos150]

Updated to alpha 3

[stevelois]

Will try it out in few mins

[stevelois]

Well mate,

This layout is much more interesting

Fewer suggestions ;

I don't really think that the tight placement is a good place at the bottom of the tower. Having the sniper in the tower + health is enough imo so I would tend to place them elsewhere. This area is pretty "nude". Maybe you can consider move the tights there (arrow) & even open up that wall to add some gameplay (medium health + flak + small armor would be nice in that straight route).



Speaking of that part, by open it up a bit like an arc with the upper floor extended a bit would be nice (blue). I feel this corridor is to tight (green) & it will be even worst if you plan to add mesh later. The platform (yellow) is "in your face" & not very useful. I would tend to make it reach the roof instead so when your leaving the vest room you can go higher.



It would be a good thing if you open up the wall so players have the choice of taking the lift or turn right. The section in red is what I suggest to "cut".



Some part like that would be cool if they have some goodies. This is just an example of moving ammo there. I also suggest you open up the roof so players can do a jumplift from the lift beside & can access the roof.



It's getting better mate, keep it up

[rathalos150]

Thanks for all the awesome feedback.

I hope I can move on to beta after my next alpha. I just want to be sure the gameplay comes first in the process.

[stevelois]

Your welcome mate

But, pickups can change along the dev. process so even if all pickups aren't in place, you will eventually place them on the right spot while playing your map. Unless your 100% comfortable with your work, don't hesitate to turn things around & test & watch a lot of bot matches in spec view to make sure they go everywhere as a human do, it's the best way of maximizing flow & gameplay.

[rathalos150]

Adding the hole in the roof above the lift was a great idea. Players can now jump off the lift and land on the roof. This will certainly be in next release.

[stevelois]

Ho, I completely forgot to mention that there is to much levels in the sniper tower. I was expecting to go straight to the top first time I've played and all those level aren't really necessary. Brief, it's not comfortable to be squeezed in the tower going to the top with all those "stages".

[rathalos150]

Ho, I completely forgot to mention that there is to much levels in the sniper tower. I was expecting to go straight to the top first time I've played and all those level aren't really necessary. Brief, it's not comfortable to be squeezed in the tower going to the top with all those "stages".

The tower feels too cramped for my taste and the bots appear to be getting stuck. I'll probably make the tower a little wider and make it only two lifts to the top because I still want the level with the sniper rifle and window to shoot out of.

[stevelois]

Well, since you want the tower to be divided in 2 floors (upper & middle) and wider the tower, it would be nice if you can open the middle floor where the medium health is located so it will give the player the choice of jumping down or take the lift to reach the higher level.

[rathalos150]

Well, since you want the tower to be divided in 2 floors (upper & middle) and wider the tower, it would be nice if you can open the middle floor where the medium health is located so it will give the player the choice of jumping down or take the lift to reach the higher level.

The medium health is on the top floor... But I know what you mean. Traversing through floors will be an easy process in the next version

By the way... Seb said he would test my next version of my map.... three versions ago :P I want multiple opinions (not that your opinions are bad)

[Zerglings]

I'll try it out see what it's like.

[SEBASTIEN-NOVA]

By the way... Seb said he would test my next version of my map.... three versions ago :P I want multiple opinions....

I would, but You work to fast for me, I have D/L the 2 first versions, not have the time to test it you are always on the next version lol

If you decide to slow your work and take time on the version 3, i will test it

[rathalos150]

I would, but You work to fast for me, I have D/L the 2 first versions, not have the time to test it you are always on the next version lol

If you decide to slow your work and take time on the version 3, i will test it

Sure thing. I wont have time to work on my map at all for another week anyway.

The version that is posted is alpha 3. The next version will be #4

[SEBASTIEN-NOVA]

Ok, I d/l the alpha 3

[Zerglings]

Looks like I'll have to download again.

[rathalos150]

I would recommend waiting for the beta version because there wont be much of a difference between the versions until then.

If you want to try the map however, feel free