Butterlies, Gnashers and a series of 9's -

[< Profess >]

So I've been playing TF2 a lot lately. Spy typically.

(To those who aren't familiar with the game the spy carries a butterfly knife that can instant kill with a back-stab)

Now I was talking with someone about the butterfly knife a little while ago and it came up how it does infinite-damage (not literally, just a long sequence of 9's) to guarantee a kill no matter what combination of healing and/or class is involved.

Now whether true or not, that's pretty consistent, so naturally I made a link to the most inconsistent weapon of them all. The Gnasher.

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Here's my meaning,

The Gnasher should be a dead-cert' kill at under a meter. I don't care where it hits them or what lucky pellet spread I get,
I expect limbs to be flying.

I think most people agree with that.

So here's what I propose, we all know that the Gnasher has damage drop off on each pellet as range increases, but I think that each pellet should mimic the spy's 'infinite' damage back-stab (as in a 100hp damage to a 100hp player) so that no matter the spread or target locations it will always be a kill.

(With a substantial damage drop off beyond that 1 meter range to what the Gnasher is doing at present, of course)


I want the Gnasher to be as dependable as my Lancer when I'm giving back-rubs with the barrel, and I think in a world of shot-leading and location damage scaling this is a decent solution.

Thoughts?

[cjgone]

Gnasher is the skill weapon of the game and the most used. I will not buy GOW2 if the shotgun is completely different. If you shoot someone straight on with the shotgun expect damage to be done. The bullets are inconsistent to a POINT, but if you completely miss someone, you're going to lose a shotgun battle. The thing that makes the shotgun appear "random" is that it's hard to dictate where your bullets went without a reticule. Good players can "visualize" the reticule and use it as the skill weapon it is.

So here's what I propose, we all know that the Gnasher has damage drop off on each pellet as range increases

Nah, in Gears, the spread increases, so less bullets hit a palyer at far range, so it does less damage.

[< Profess >]

"Nah, in Gears, the spread increases, so less bullets hit a palyer at far range, so it does less damage."

I think this misunderstanding is why you haven't grasped what I'm putting out there.

What is the least damage you've ever seen inflicted by a shotgun (for me it's DOF without any visible omen change). Now times that by the number of pellets in a shot.

:/

It has damage drop off, just like the Lancer, the Pistol, the Boltok and the HB.

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I think that at absolute point-blank ranges the shotgun needs to be consistent instant death, more so in Gears2 when you consider that panicky point-blank Lancer fire can often prevail. Too often IMO for what is supposed to be a mid-range weapon.

[BattleTATT]

the problem is nothings dependable with gears of war 1. could it be the server side hit detection?

a real life shotty, with buckshot, the spread is tight and travels at a high rate of speed from the muzzle of the barrel, much like a slug bullet. The differance is that the slug is just that one bullet. The buckshot bullet starts to spread as the traveled distance increases.

its not a power weapon....its a close range combat weapon to help clear an area and advance. It should be the same in the game as what it is in real life. The spread of the buckshot should seperate upon leaving the barrel with speed and damage decreasing over range of travel.

its should most definitely go by shot placement and range. if you have the muzzle point blank it should blast a person to pieces...but thats all. at a range of four to five feet the buck shot pattern will spread causing a much wider range of bodily damage but a less controlled, instant kill situation.

i think that an active close range gansher shot less than four feet with good body or head placement should kill instantly.

but being that epic wanted a minigame with the active....a no active should take two to three at the same range depending on hit placement.

i think with the netcode optimizations and hopefully client side hit detection "not sure which they opted to go with" we should see better results with the gnasher.

[< Profess >]

Their using server-side I believe.

[BattleTATT]

thats what creates the bullet lag, host advantage and the inconsistancies of the weapons. Not to metion the load they expected the server to hold and keep the game smooth and precise for its clients. "if i understand this correctly"

i have yet to get an answer on this.

im no software engineer but here is what ive came too understand about the two.

client side hit detection.

the information and actions of firing.
when you apply the fire action..all that follows, the sound, the muzzle flash, the bullets shells ejecting from the gun, the bullets leaving the barrel to travel in a desired direction, the bullets hitting the point of aim,the bullet holes from the impact on a texture. all information is passed though us the client and gives a more desired reaction at one giving moment.

server side hit detection

all of the above, the information must travel to the host/server. and depending on the speed of your internet, the level of ping, and the distance of the location of the server to yourself...causes a less than desired reaction within a giving moment.

we have to make corrections by leading the enemies actions. Judging there next move and compensating due to the time it will take for the information to travel to that of the server thats even if the shots register at a rate of speed that is present to that of a host connection.

the reason lan is so effective is because the information is right there, all in the same network.

i dont know. epic mave have a few tricks up their selves to help server side hit detection but what ive read about it...causes inconsistancies of bullet travel and impact.

the only negative ive read about client side hit detection is when next to cover.
when you are taking fire and go around cover to avaid fire, it sometimes can not register to the client being fired upon until they are behind the wall....killing you, but the shots do register on you giving location at the giving time you are being fired upon. With lag it just takes a little more time to get the information to you.

a good example of this is the sniper. have you ever took a shot that caused the bullet to fly in a completely differant direction that where you aimed?
it does this really bad when you are under the scope and try to move and fire at the same time.

[BattleTATT]

from what i hear cod4 and halo use client side hit detection.

[TANK828]

Not a fan of that idea, if I'm point blank with someone and I graze him with a pellet or two in the kill range then he would always die. And no matter how close you are one pellet should not guarantee a kill.

[GeordiLaforge]

Shotgun fighting is kind of an art form, it is the main gun that you have to be good with to get kills in a game, I don't think that if you hit someone in the foot from 1 foot away they sould die. by the way TF2 is awesome

[< Profess >]

"And no matter how close you are one pellet should not guarantee a kill."

There are times though when at point blank (shooting down over someones wall, around their corner) when the amount of player exposed may or may not be hit with a killing shot because of the random pellet spread (which IS needed to make the shotgun close-ranged).

In those situations that randomness is counter to the point of a shotgun being an effective close range weapon (within the confines of a cover-based game).

Now although a single pellet can gib someone that is injured you may think it's a little over powered. Well if you think about it, if this only applies to those meter (maybe half-meter in the case of clearing people off walls) shots, so no matter what to hit with any pellets your aim must be encompassing at least half of them(if not more).

A lot of the time online I've seen point blank hits on stationary guys that inexplicably give only 1 or 2 pellet hits. Now my aim is centered so it's a kill... that is what's important.

A centered shot while tickling with the barrel should be a kill, irregardless of the weapons random workings.

Basically, with this the random spread is not a factor when your on target at absolute point blank.

'I don't think that if you hit someone in the foot from 1 foot away they should die.'

But without general connection issues that is what the Gnasher does at present, and without character damage scaling in Gears2 (excluding the head) it's still going to do it.

"by the way TF2 is awesome"

[Rayped]

I dont mind the shotty's inconcistincies(?spelling) other than, for me, whenever I'm like a millimeter away from someone and blindfire into their back they just wobble a little, turn around and two piece me. Now in my opinion that doesnt make sense, I've learned though, that if u are a millimeter away from someone cliff wants u to pull the left trigger before shooting.

[DenyThisFlesh]

I dont mind the shotty's inconcistincies(?spelling) other than, for me, whenever I'm like a millimeter away from someone and blindfire into their back they just wobble a little, turn around and two piece me. Now in my opinion that doesnt make sense, I've learned though, that if u are a millimeter away from someone cliff wants u to pull the left trigger before shooting.

Even that can get mixed results at times. I prefer to two-piece when I come up behind someone. That's an almost guaranteed kill.

[< Profess >]

Strong emphasis on the 'almost'.

[cjgone]

I dont mind the shotty's inconcistincies(?spelling) other than, for me, whenever I'm like a millimeter away from someone and blindfire into their back they just wobble a little, turn around and two piece me. Now in my opinion that doesnt make sense, I've learned though, that if u are a millimeter away from someone cliff wants u to pull the left trigger before shooting.

Er, don't blame your poor aiming on the shotgun? Melee first if you can't shoot straight.

[II Donell II]

Well, it's 1:30am in the morning so I didn't grasp everything you said.

However, I do agree that a shot from a ft away in the body should be an insta-kill no matter what - as you said - especially since now, if you don't get an insta kill at that range you'll likely be lancered down or chainsawed.

It would be a bit rediculous if someone got shot in the toe from a ft away and got insta killed but aslong as the whole reticule is over their body it definately should get the 1 shot kill close range.

And also, since the melee stun will be gone we won't even be able to 2 peice from behind to ensure the kill.