Work-In-Progress thread

[Serenius]

It looks like you really have some cool details and stuff going on in there, but it's so dark I can't see it.

You may want to consider upping the brightness of your lights some. You can still have a scene with lots of dark areas shrouded in shadow, but the lights should be really bright to illuminate the areas around them.

I've been doing a lot of work on this with my current map to get the right look. A good way to see if it works is to jack up your mid-range colors to 1.5 under the view->world options -> post-processing. If your bright areas still look bright, then you have the right balance of bright lights and dark shadows. If the lights aren't bright enough, the lit up areas won't stand out as much from the shadowy areas.

Edit: Also, the outdoor areas appear to have orange light cast on everything, but the skybox looks grey? What is casting the orange light?

[Piranhi]

Thanks for the feedback.

The orange outside is coming from the fires dotted around. I left the fires in the background buildings by accident, they were from the original GoW models, but I forgot to take them out after I changed them. Also, as I had the effects on low to record the movie, the particle effects are really shoddy making the fires from the burning bodies look like the light from a disposable lighter instead lol.

In regards to the brightness, I know what you mean, and I experimented with a lot of different brightnesses. The reason I decided to go with a low light, is that the player has their torch on their gun to light up what they want to see. I excluded the sky light from the morgue to give it that really creepy scary feel. At times it does feel too dark in the morgue but there was a section on the latest Bioshock that did something similar and knocked the lights completely out for a couple of minutes, letting the player rely solely on their torch whilst being thrown into a new area. It gave a really spooky and disorientated effect which I thought worked brilliantly. I think once I add everything in there such as sounds, particles and the interactable objects that I have highlighted through materials, it should be ok.

I'll definitely take what you've said on board though and have another light pass tonight to see if I can spruce it up a notch.

[OoSuper marioO]

Videos:
Part 1 -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCTi0BRmKNQ
Part 2 -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QowI06meRw
Part 3 -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uByNyhlF3xs
Blog - http://project-artus.blogspot.com/

Really love the use of light on Marcus weapon effecting the environment. The dialogue choices was also a clever feature(fantastic to see in Gears).

Can't wait to see this overtime

[krisirk]

Really love the use of light on Marcus weapon effecting the environment. The dialogue choices was also a clever feature(fantastic to see in Gears).

Can't wait to see this overtime

yeah looking good, hope to see final

[Piranhi]

Cheers for the comments, guys.

[Dr Judym]

Just testing some basic stuff right now, checking whether the general color palette is consistent (in terms of e.g. white/black levels and such), defining materials etc.

[Piranhi]

Ok, this should please you Serenius, something with a lot of light!

This is still my game Artus, it's a just few hours later from my last screenshots I posted. The player goes through the morgue, meets with a npc who tell's the player that they will get them to the church, but it'll take a few hours. Then cut to the church with a cut scene. This room is basically going to be a sort of hub, with a lot of NPC's in that the player talks to to find out more about the city, the story etc.

This, like the rest of my work is still a WIP.
You can find my blog, and bigger images, here - http://project-artus.blogspot.com/

[Piranhi]

Cheers bud, comments like that are a big morale booster

I've uploaded a video to YouTube, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgEKxRRewKY

It's not the best quality but this is the opening sequence for the church. After this the player will be able to look around and talk to people. It's far from finished and only has a few people in atm.

[Dr Judym]

One thing, you wrote that this map is for your portfolio. If you're going to apply for a level designer position, making a map with 100% content made by Epic doesn't make much sense, IMO.

[Piranhi]

Really? Considering the fact that I'm applying to be a level designer, not a 3D environment artist then using Epic's content, especially in ways it wasn't originally intended, seems like the perfect way to apply for a job. A level designer has no need to learn how to create 3D asset (although being able to use a 3D program does help, even if it's just to create simple objects to help create the layout of the level), they don't need to know how to create sound effects, animations, they don't need to know how to use unrealscript or C.

Saying that though, I do know how how to create 3D assets and a lot of them are in my levels. I know some unrealscript and I've worked with other coding languages, plus I use a lot my own sounds, materials and particle effects etc. A level designers job is primarily:

Building the level, obviously
Setting the mood: lighting, sound, effects etc
Setting the pacing
Bringing in all the assets and making sure they work together
Creating game dependant assets such as cover nodes, pathing, objectives etc
Making sure the map works, although this is also part of Q&A's job as well.

This isn't me being obnoxious, these are words from industry professionals who I've spoken to. If I was going for a environment artist then your comment holds some truth, but not for a level designer.

[Dr Judym]

Looks like the requirements are different these days (lower?), when I was interested in this kind of job, you had to know how to make your own static meshes, textures, use scripting tools - basically all the things you need to create the visual side of a level plus gameplay.

Anyway, using your own textures/meshes/materials in the level would make your work more unique, so you'd have bigger chance than all the people using default content to create their environments, thus a bigger chance to get the job.

[Piranhi]

Unless you're talking about the days of the SNES or working in a very small indie team, then no. If you can make meshes, script or create other assets then yeah, of course it's a bonus. However, when creating a game, the programmers will do the scripting, the 3D artists will create the models, the sound engineers will create the sounds, the level designers will create the levels etc.

I agree with what you're saying about creating your own models to make your level unique, we had a guy give us a talk from HB studios a while back and I had a chat with him afterwards. He said the same as you, that games with unique models will stand out. especially when everyone else is using the same models, but the key thing they look out for is fun. The level has to be fun, have interesting mechanics, new ideas etc. In the short space of time I have, it's better to have a completed game rather then have a short unfinished level filled with models which compared to the epic ones will look second class.

Again, saying that, I do have some models in that aren't epics, and I'm sure companies will understand that I'm applying to be a level designer and I won't be stuck creating other assets.

[Kantham]

A level designer has no need to learn how to create 3D asset (although being able to use a 3D program does help, even if it's just to create simple objects to help create the layout of the level), they don't need to know how to create sound effects, animations, they don't need to know how to use unrealscript or C.

Correct. Unrealscripting isn't needed now that they've added Kismet since UE3 anyway.
Well good luck. I too seek forward having a job in the industry.

[shooter19]

Correct. Unrealscripting isn't needed now that they've added Kismet since UE3 anyway.
Well good luck. I too seek forward having a job in the industry.

You will most likely get one haha

[Serenius]

Ok, this should please you Serenius, something with a lot of light!

You don't need to please me. I could simply say "looks great" if you prefer.

I'm just trying to give honest input that I hope to get on my work as well since we're both aiming for the industry. A lot better to hear it here than during the application process.

That being said, you might want to consider a contrasting color for shadows in this map. It would really make the visuals pop.

[Piranhi]

haha no, I prefer getting C&C, good or bad! But I'd never turn a compliment down lol.

I had another bash at my post processing after what you said and I'm think this suits it better, it has a lot more of a morning feel, but I don't know if it's a bit over the top. Anyway, if you guys have any input I'd appreciate it.

Bigger pictures on my blog.

[Serenius]

Here's what I meant by using a contrasting ambient light. Sorry the color correction is crappy, it was hard to bring out the blue shadow and mid-tone, but this should give you an idea of what I meant. It shouldn't be quite so dark, but I suck at editing color curves in GIMP.



Basically it's just color theory.



If your primary light source is orange, use blue ambient lighting for your shadows.
If your primary light source is yellow, use purple ambient lighting for your shadows.

Take a look around at night to really get a good feel for it. You'll notice that all the areas covered in shadow are a dark blue, and the lights that stand out (like street signs) are all orange.

Gives a really good contrast, and makes this already good looking level and lighting scheme look great.

[Dr Judym]

Yup. And you can make the lightning less dull by using subtle lights, simulating light bouncing off the floor, walls, radiosity effect and such. Since the lightning is baked you don't have to worry about having a lot of them per scene (unless they're dynamic, that is). This plus 3 lights theory for emphasizing key elements/structures/objects in each room and you should get something decent. Which reminds me of my unfinished GoW map where I have to replace/update most of the lights

[Piranhi]

The only problem is that it alleviates away from the mood that I was going for, however, I had another go but the use of height fog disrupts the effectiveness of the post process effect. I think I know the kind of look you're going for but I'm not sure if that's going to fit the scene as how I originally intended it.

With Height Fog


Without Height Fog


Anyway, this is just me thinking out loud. I'll be working on fine tuning this for the next 3 months but any more input is more then welcome!

Regards
Chris

[Dr Judym]

I think it looks much better without the height fog. The scene has more depth, there's a whole range between hightones, midtones and shadows. I'd tone the saturation of the orange down a bit and use either postprocess or skylight to make shadows as the counterpoint for the light (blue-ish, purple-ish), like Serenius suggested.

Also, if you need better insight on lightning in the churches (in any location, actually), use reference photos. Sample the light colours from there - light sources, floor, ceiling etc and then tweak the values to your liking.

[Piranhi]

I agree it stands out and it certainly has more depth, but that doesn't really fit in with the mood I'm going for, it also brings the game back to a gears of war feel/style with gritty undertones.

The idea of this place is to work with the pacing of the game I've set out. You've just spent the last 10 minutes in a scary location/atmosphere with encounters and other scenarios to keep you on your feet. This place is meant to act as a safe haven, somewhere that the player knows he/she is safe and can relax. It also acts as a hub, full of NPC's. Here the player can find out more about the story/city/events, can get new missions, can use shops or certain NPC's depending on which side of a scale they are currently on etc.

I'm not a religious person, but one thing I really idealise about religious depictions is the sense of safety they portray in some of their images. Sunbeams and god rays, a sense of warmth shown by the sun coming out of the darkness etc. Even the music I have playing is there to give the player a sense of safety and warmth. These are the reasons I've tried to add as much warmth to the level as possible and while bringing up the tones and altering the shadows to become darker does look good, I'll agree with you on that, it really sends the scene off in another direction.

Again, I really appreciate your input and it's going on board but I think the less contrast, just for this level, the better.

[Dr Judym]

Hey, it's your map, you'll do anything you like with it. Definitely you have a valid concept behind your decision, we'll see if you're able to communicate it when you finish your map

I'm not religious (not since I was 10-12 really, so a millennium ago) but I think in Christian churches there's something between a feeling of being in good God's hands (lights, stained glass) and being humbled by his limitless power (gigantic proportions of Gothic churches). So it's both about feeling safe and a bit scared too I guess Romanesque churches seem to be more on the safety feeling.

Also, from what I've seen in games, devs tend to balance the Gothic mood of a temple with light, just as you, ruins are good for this in particular - e.g. you can add a cone of light coming from the ceiling because the roof is partly destroyed, or you can use flora to enhance the feeling of being in a "good area" - vines, green grass patches, flowers and such. But I guess you don't want the church to be ruined. If I were you, I'd look for some methods to show a "good nature" of this place with more than one color.

[Piranhi]

you can add a cone of light coming from the ceiling because the roof is partly destroyed

haha I was actually tempted to do this but I came to the same conclusion that you can't do everything in one scene, perhaps this can be a reoccurring level/hub and near the end of the game you come back after it has been attacked or something similar that would cause it to be damaged etc *starts scribbling down ideas*. Anyway I like your ideas, especially about the part about large religious buildings feeling safe and scary at the same time, something I'll definitely look into.

Cheers

[Serenius]

I agree it stands out and it certainly has more depth, but that doesn't really fit in with the mood I'm going for, it also brings the game back to a gears of war feel/style with gritty undertones.

I wasn't going for gritty at all. I just suck at editing color curves in GIMP.

It would look better and have more depth with contrasting shadows without losing the warm feel you're going for, but it's your map, your call. Good luck!

[Dr Judym]

I experimented with your screenshot (height fog version) and got something like this:



It has a bit more depth and there is something going on with lightning, even if it's subtle. I'd aim for something like that. I guess there should be more lightning coming from the stained glass on the right, I just thought about it after uploading the image

[Piranhi]

Yeah, I know what you're both saying However, you have to remember I'm not going for realism, depth or striking contrasts between colours. The primary factor that I'm focusing on is the mood and removing the warm orange colours and adding in dark shadows breaks the atmosphere. However, I am going to be creating another version of this after I've done, as I mentioned before, which will be ruined, damaged etc. So I will use a different colour pallet to portray a different atmosphere.

I did have a fiddle around to get something along the lines of what you guys were thinking, and it looks good. But to me it doesn't feel as warm and inviting as the original. But again, thanks for the input.

[Piranhi]

Ok, edit!! I thought I had done something fancy by setting the skylight to black and the brightness to 0.5, but it's technically the same as removing the skylight altogether, /facepalm. Using negative numbers however is meant to remove light, but I don't think that's going to work well with a skylight, really.

Anyway, I dunno if this is the kinda direction you guys were thinking off, but I really like this. It still gives the same colour scheme I wanted, along with all the attributes such as an enticing surrounding, a safe, religious feeling, nice warm colours etc. So I think, with a bit more tidying up such as bounce lights, this is the lighting I'll go with. Again, any input would be nice.

-- Look here for the bigger image - http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/9...usnewlarge.jpg --

[Serenius]

Is this what you're trying to go for?

http://www.historytoursnorfolk.co.uk...rior_large.JPG
http://www.businesstravellogue.com/f...-cathedral.jpg
http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/med...-cathedral.jpg
http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/...athedral-1.jpg

[Piranhi]

Hmm, kind of. The still don't portray the type of atmosphere I'm going for. Yeah, they're churches and it feels religious etc. But it also feels very realistic and plain. This is meant to be like the only safe place left on the planet moroless, so it needs that divine protection feel.

I'd say Chicargo and Norway are the closest match if you mixed their style with an environment that encompassed these tones:

[Dr Judym]

So, you're trying to use outdoor lightning scheme for indoor settings, right? Kind of doing the impossible thing It will be hard to make this lightning interesting (not realistic, that's not always the case, light has the same properties and behavior regardless the setting: contemporary, ancient, fantasy, SF, no matter) due to the different light properties and distances for it to travel on open areas, distance fog etc., rather than in buildings.

The second picture in the post #67 looks better in terms of contrast and there seem to be some other colors than the shades of orange. Still it feels like you have this church in a Prince of Persia or Assassin's Creed world, somewhere in the desert.

[Piranhi]

I'm sorry, but all the feedback I've had so far suggests the contrary. I've shown the images around to peers at uni, msn and on irc and there was only one other person who thought the images with more contrast worked better with the mood and atmosphere I'm trying to set, and even he changed his mind once he actually played the level with the music, the ambient noises, the whole idea behind this level. The feedback I got was that the other images remained far too much like GoW.

I've worked with 3D and Photoshop for over 6 years now so I feel I have a basic understanding of light and colour theory. I understand how it moves through different mediums such as glass using refractive indexes to change the speed and tint of light. I know how a room is illuminated and coloured by light bouncing and making an educated guess what the room will look like by working out a rough angle of incidence. However, for this project I have also read a lot into how light and darkness are portrayed in a religious manner. I have also gone through many pieces of artwork, including a trip to Paris in which I went to the Louvre and Notre Damn for research.

I'm not trying to sound like an obnoxious git here, but I didn't rush into this project and I am open,to, and appreciate suggestions. All I did yesterday was try different lighting setups but I just feel that they don't get across my message as well as the current setup I have. When I release the map then you can see what I mean when I talk about the ambience, the music, the setting etc. I don't think a screenshot alone can really get across the image I have in my mind

[Dr Judym]

Well, you're using GoW editor and 90-100% GoW stock assets (wild guess here), so how do you expect it to look "not like GoW"? It will always refer to GoW this way or another, players can recognize the pieces of architecture, textures and such. But I agree, screenshot won't give as much info as the ability to move in this environment. We can argue about the color setup mostly, because what we see on pictures looks pretty flat (obviously ).

[Tag@gears]

Pirahni.. i also think a little more contrast would be visually more pleasing. attached

the orginal








and an reworked example from one of you pics taken from your blog


yet in the end it is indeed your work and your map.
so you can do whatever seem fit its all cool.!

[Kantham]

I think the coloring is a bit better in the re-worked version, but I'm really not a fan of high contrasts, personally. It seems to be more appealing in the newer updates of the Uengine 3, in GOW 1 the characters look like crap with high scene contrasts.

[Tag@gears]

I think the coloring is a bit better in the re-worked version, but I'm really not a fan of high contrasts, personally. It seems to be more appealing in the newer updates of the Uengine 3, in GOW 1 the characters look like crap with high scene contrasts.

well offcourse everyone its own.
I like gears1 with high contrast and bland colors, because it was sometimes
kinda hard to figuring out if you where standing next too an friend or foe.
The Env and char all blended in one big bowl..
just a big + for me in the dept of suprise elements,
wich you..assume would like to have in a wargame.

but i do agree the characters and envs look visually more pleasing
"worked out/polished" in gow2.

[Piranhi]

Hey Tag, I really like the version you did. As I mentioned before, I'll be doing two versions of this level, one when the player arrives for the first time and one when the player returns near the end of the game. As the player takes different actions and the game comes to an end the church level will change to reflect that, and the lighting in the version you linked looks just like the lighting I'd go for. I don't want the church to feel safe in the second, but like Judym pointed out, I'd want to try and keep that divine, powerful feel, and I think that setup achieves it.

[JUGGERNUT]

I am always amazed at how some people can change a scene just like that, the artistic eye is inconsistant with me.

[Tag@gears]

Hey Tag, I really like the version you did. As I mentioned before, I'll be doing two versions of this level, one when the player arrives for the first time and one when the player returns near the end of the game. As the player takes different actions and the game comes to an end the church level will change to reflect that, and the lighting in the version you linked looks just like the lighting I'd go for. I don't want the church to feel safe in the second, but like Judym pointed out, I'd want to try and keep that divine, powerful feel, and I think that setup achieves it.

ok way cool.
your overall orange did achieve something divine and after looking at it
very carefull it was kinda creepy yet powerfull.

[Serenius]

Think this will be my last lighting pass. Getting the whole scripting in checkpoints thing worked out, and will post up a beta.

[Piranhi]

Great work, Serenius, it's coming along nicely.