Mantas are completely imba. And map vehicle imbalance is STUPID

[innociv]

Seriously what the heck. It's just as bad as beta was.

We thought "Oh durr it's because the avril is far away. It's just the map" But almost ALL maps are like that.

And the biggest issue is that, why the hell does the Manta *HAVE* to be countered by a scorpion, avril, or 50/50 chance a tank, when all the other vehicles can pretty easily be killed with other weapons?

Tank I can kill with link gun or flak no problem.
Raptor i can kill with stinger or shock rifle.
Scorpion i can kill with flak, rockets, stinger, whatever.
So on and so forth.

The manta.. It's pretty much impossible to kill with anything but another vehicle or an avril. And not only that, but the manta is the best at killing people next to the Nightshade, or just as good as the nightshade.

So, what the hell? Who thought this was a good idea?


At least in UT2004 you could shock rifle to push them away and dodge jump to avoid them. Both these things, the only defense there was against Mantas, is gone. Now I hated UT2004, but at least Mantas weren't so insanely overpowered then as they are now


There should be a defense against them, like being able to crouch so they can't roadkill you. Or make mantas explode instantly when someone tries to enter them. OR hell, just remove them from the game. They're just so extremely broken.


------
Oh and no only this, what the heck is up with one team getting a nightshade, and the other not, on some maps?
Like Avalanche
Nightshade > Infinite number of Hellbenders.
On Islander..
Nightshade > 50 turrets.

Nightshade is the best vehicle in the game, by far. Hell, it's even better than Mantas most of the time. I've gotten just as many monster kills with the nightshade as I have with the Manta, but i've gotten wayy more godlikes and unstoppables with the nightshade, it just takes a little longer before i get my first monster kill with the nightshade since i have to wait for the people to come to me instead of going to them.


But I can fight Nightshades alot better than Mantas. It's just newbs amking easy kills with me in a Nightshade. Against Manta's theres often no denfese. I usually can't even weapons switch to a freaking avril fast enough to shoot one by the time i see it. Or with how fast they move the avril shoots into a damn wall.
Mantas = broken.
Unbalanced vehicle balance on a map isn't so bad, but it definitely is when one side gets a nightshade and the other doesn't.

[Snky_Bstrd]

You're "imba". You're also newb and hax.

[Silverado-CoA]

hammer beats mant, end of story....and its one of the most fun kills in the game

[innociv]

hammer beats mant, end of story....and its one of the most fun kills in the game

Um wrong.
It takes 2 hits to kill the manta. The Manta recovers and kills you faster than the firing delay on the impact hammer.

Lots of people try to say that. Would you like to 1vs1, you having an impact hammer, and I have a Manta?

TWO people with impact hammers against a Manta MAYBE. But 2vs1 only reinforces how imba it is.


Also take into account how Mantas sneak up on you and kill you from behind 75% of the time. you can't freaking hear them.

The sound distance in UT3 is just ass for everything.

[thejinx]

Hitscan + Knockback = Shock Rifle. Right tool for the right job at longer range. Manta jockeys can't get close enough to splatter you. They ARE pretty frail, ya know. Just like hitting a guy with a shield belt, jump boots, and a link gun.

[Reise]

If I know a Manta is coming for me it's usually very hard for them to kill me. Flak, Stinger or Shock Rifle are best to use while strafing their attacks. You just have to know how they move and how to exploit their crappy sideways/backwards maneuverability.

[innociv]

Hitscan + Knockback = Shock Rifle. Right tool for the right job at longer range. Manta jockeys can't get close enough to splatter you. They ARE pretty frail, ya know. Just like hitting a guy with a shield belt, jump boots, and a link gun.

I've had people try this against me plenty of times. Uhm.. the push isn't nearly high enough to stop it.

Just like hitting a guy with a shield belt, jump boots, and a link gun.

And "speed boots" and "armor of insta-killing thorns". That'd put into perspective how a Manta is well, yes, and why they're so overpowered.


The only RELIABLE way I've found to kill them is with the shock rifle or flak, AND jump boots. But it shouldn't REQUIRE jumpboots. Jumpboots are way less plentiful and harder to get to than mantas.

[Killerus]

mantas are easy to take down on foot. Impact hammer is the best IMO. Yes it takes 2 hits for a full health manta, but 99% of the time mantas already have damage to them.

Quit running in a straight line and start looking around more and you will be surpised how much longer you live.

[innociv]

Quit running in a straight line and start looking around more and you will be surpised how much longer you live.

Maps aren't flat.

[thejinx]

Jumpboots are way less plentiful and harder to get to than mantas.

So get another manta.

[FooZ]

manta is piss easy to kill......

[Ultron]

Mantas are easy to kill, but they can rack up a ton of kills before that happens. The only thing that really competes with that is another Manta, or a Scavenger.

[Mokuba]

1-AVRL
2-Link gun

[»madMar†y»]

Mantas are easy to kill, but they can rack up a ton of kills before that happens. The only thing that really competes with that is another Manta, or a Scavenger.

Well I have only toyed around with the Scavenger for a short while, so I'm probably not aware of all popossibilities, but to me it looked like the Scavenger was pretty much defensless against a manta. You can't really lock that ball thing onto anything and the secondary fire are rotating knives, so that wasn't much effective against them either..

[innociv]

Mantas are easy to kill, but they can rack up a ton of kills before that happens. The only thing that really competes with that is another Manta, or a Scavenger.

Right.
You get at least 5 kills for every death in a Manta even if you're a n00b.

Manta is like Halo crap. Skilless noobness leveled playing field.

Killing with a manta doesn't take a fraction of the skill it takes being on foot. Anyone with a Manta has a fair chance to kill someone with real skill.

[Biznarie]

One of the gameplay changes in the BETA patch is

- Flak, Rocket, and Shock do slightly more damage to manta and viper.

[Dario D.]

I agree with the original poster, especially with the point that most of the time you can't even hear them coming. I far prefer more subtle (but more heavily armored) vehicles like the Ghost in Halo, which serve their purpose without causing frustration among the 10 people who get slaughtered before the vehicle gets taken out.

[Mr Evil]

Hitscan + Knockback = Shock Rifle. Right tool for the right job at longer range. Manta jockeys can't get close enough to splatter you. They ARE pretty frail, ya know. Just like hitting a guy with a shield belt, jump boots, and a link gun.

Did they increase the knockback in the final game? I've managed to hold off Mantas several times with it which I never managed to do in the demo, but that might be because I've only played vs. bots so far, who might somehow be extra affected (I didn't play any botmatches in the demo).

[Richteralan]

Did they increase the knockback in the final game? I've managed to hold off Mantas several times with it which I never managed to do in the demo, but that might be because I've only played vs. bots so far, who might somehow be extra affected (I didn't play any botmatches in the demo).

Mantas are the same. Nothing changed.

[-delete-]

THe manta sufferes from SEVERAL massive problems

1) they are incredibly silent. by this i mean you really cannot hear a manta coming at you from behind or the side or anything until it is already too late. but then again all the vehicles are way too silent so i guess Epic decided that it was balanced if you cant hear ANY vehicle.
2) the impact hammer is not a viable counter measure. i say this because it is only effective if the manta is coming directly at you and even if the manta gets hit once all the pilot has to do is start pew pew pewing with the lasers and the person with the hammer is dead in 2 seconds.
3) the ROF of the plasma is way too high
4) the damage output of the plasma is way too high but this has more to do with the ROF than the damage per blasma bolt.
5) it is far more agile than the 2k4 manta making it much more beastly and the vehicle that will win maps for teams.



as for things like the scavenger... that thing is LAWL. fun as hell but absolutely lawl. it is the new scorpion in terms of being only useful of getting from point a to point b. however you can get some decent crush kills if you know how to use the ball mode effectively.

the nightshade is hilarious. can we say free kills? but this thing suffers from the lack of sound ALL the vehicles suffer from. the link beam on the nightsade is terrible as it gives no feedback as to if it is doing damage at all. that is until something flies off the vehicle or something. plus the damage output it horrible. i can understnad it since it is basically an invisible steamroller but sheesh why even give it the link beam in the first place then?

[Lulzy]

The next patch will increase the damage and knock back received ("slightly" as they put it) by mantas from shock rifle, flak and rockets. So yeah it's getting nerfed.

Manta is fine, l2play

[Jonny]

I find the sniper rifle the best weapon to counter the manta - the shots seem to do a fair chunk of damage to it and theres a chance you'll headshot the driver.

If that fails throw your computer down stairs...the manta will never bother you again

[Ultron]

If that fails throw your computer down stairs...the manta will never bother you again

LOL!

That's somewhat like my cure for the hiccups.

What you do is, you hold your breath.

For 10 minutes.

You'll _never_ have hiccups again....

[kaluro]

as for things like the scavenger... that thing is LAWL. fun as hell but absolutely lawl. it is the new scorpion in terms of being only useful of getting from point a to point b. however you can get some decent crush kills if you know how to use the ball mode effectively.

It's actually quite a powerful weapon, but only versus infantry.. As you said, leaping in the air, changing into a ball heading down the earth towards an infantry unit is quite effective.. If you got the hang of it.

But also when you're a ball, and press left mouse button your 'legs' will start rotating like a razorblade for X seconds, which will kill off infantry fairly easy as well.

Also it seems faster than any other vehicle except for maybe the manta/Viper ( ? ), making it a great transport vehicle.

[-delete-]

The next patch will increase the damage and knock back received ("slightly" as they put it) by mantas from shock rifle, flak and rockets. So yeah it's getting nerfed.

Manta is fine, l2play

actually the manta isnt getting nerfed at all. the fact that it is still ninja silent is a massive problem. only thing changing in the patch (which i already have btw) is the weapons doing more damage and that isnt really too big an issue when you are dead before you even see or hear the manta or viper.

[innociv]

Yeahhh the silence-ness of it(and all vehicles) is so stupid.

Manta's would be alot less effective if you could hear them coming.


And the scavenger as great for defending nodes. It's drone thing heals up nodes VERY fast, will take out people far away, and the rollign to someone then spinning when they're trying to be an orb is great.

The scavenger just doesn't seem as great compared to overpowered manta's and vipers.



Oh and actually Manta's movement is nerfed a bit over UT2k4. But they turn way faster, and there is no dodge-jump(which is a good thing. No dodge jump is good. Manta's not rebalced to take into account lack of dodge jump is BAD though ~_~)

If you look at JUST the manta in UT3 over UT2004, it's been nerfed. In reality though, the Manta is far better in UT3 than in UT2004 since they are much harder to avoid and other changes to the rest of the game.

[Reise]

Even though I feel dirty for doing it, the Manta is quite the killing machine. Just about every time I use one I get killing sprees or better, and it's worse if I make it into your base while you try and defend the core or flag. Lots of people get cut down that way.

[bclagge]

I love the manta like it is. The only problem I have with it is the lack of noise. That's what kept the manta from squishing you from behind in UT2k4. You could hear it coming.

For all of you whining that the manta is too powerful: try and learn to deal with it. There are many effective strategies for battling mantas. And really, vehicles are supposed to be powerful. Otherwise the wouldn't be fun.

[Therealjoe]

When i played againt the bots on godlike they managed to avoid getting crushed by the manta.

[Reise]

When i played againt the bots on godlike they managed to avoid getting crushed by the manta.

It's very possible to dodge a Manta, you just have to understand how someone driving it might move to try and hit you. Once you get the maneuvers down you can pelt them with Stinger fire until they either die or give up.

[Luseferous]

It's very possible to dodge a Manta, you just have to understand how someone driving it might move to try and hit you. Once you get the maneuvers down you can pelt them with Stinger fire until they either die or give up.

+1
Same goes for their plasma shots.

Impact Hammers Work well.
Flak primary & Stinger secondary also give Manta's an extremely hard time at close range.

Vehicle wise Raptor missiles are far better at killing them than in 2k4.
Goliaths are a good match for them as are Hellbenders.

So apart from the Scorpions, Raptors, Hellbenders, Goliaths, Impact hammers, Flak, Shock, Turrets, Rockets, AVRiL's, Sniper & Stingers what have Epic ever given us to kill Mantas with ?

I have not tried the the Necris vehicles out yet but will guess that they can also field some Manta killing power.

[Killerus]

It's very possible to dodge a Manta, you just have to understand how someone driving it might move to try and hit you. Once you get the maneuvers down you can pelt them with Stinger fire until they either die or give up.

i make manta drivers give up all the time used to be alot easier in 2k4 with double dodge jump, but it is still possible in UT3. It's all about timing and keeping the manta in your vision at all times. A well placed EMP hammer in the process usually makes them run away scared.

[Patarak]

The new patch is going to make the Manta more susceptible to being knocked away

[Kyllian]

Flak/Rox/Shock do more damage to Mantas in the beta ut3 patch.

As for the hammer, keep moving around the manta while you charge the altfire a second time. The manta may be much more manueverable, but a player can still run circles around it at close range

[9ades]

I'll give the new manta some credit. It can't ramp jump from one end of the map to the other like it could in ut2004. And anybody can use the new manta, evening the skill gap.

But yes, it is definitely overpowered. It owns tanks and one manta pilot can keep the entire enemy team occupied while a single player strolls away with the flag.

The best defence against it is camping a high place (it can't jump high at all now), a rocket salvo fired at it as it comes at you, a team of stinger shooting players, a scorp, or a raptor (though the manta pilot can still evade the missiles if he's good and knows where the missiles are coming from).

It needs more knockback applied to it, it made louder and less strafing acceleration. It's speed is fine.

[D2F[Leo]]

I didn't read everything here, but a main rule in ONS and WAR is to never leave your base/node without an AVRiL. It's your own fault when you don't have the equipment to kill a manta, simple as that.

And btw: Actually the manta is nerfed a lot, compared to 2k4. ;]

[Xyx]

never leave your base/node without an AVRiL.

That's not as easy this time around. AVRiLs are pretty hard to come by in most places.

[Felin]

[03:09] <Felin> yea I heard vehicle balance is a big problem, hopefully some of it will get fixed in this first patch
[03:15] <*> i read the patch changes and though there were a lot of things, i don't remember balance changes or other warfare issues like sound being among them
[03:15] <*> maps aren't as good as 2k4's as well
[03:22] <Felin> you mean in general or all like primal and frostbite?
[03:23] <Felin> we may have to depend on the mod community to make the 2k4 maps for us, but who wants to play those again =/
[04:50] <*> in general, most of them have some gimmick that is pointless and most of them are 1-1-1 or some similar setup
[04:50] <*> frostbite was great

[Destini]

If you're arguing with the OP's point that the vehicles are imbalanced you've either never played vehicle modes competatively or your a dumbass, because it's frickin obvious...

[Felin]

11/21/2007 5:03:59 PM Felin have you played warfare?
11/21/2007 5:04:00 PM ** it took me some pub playing to see ppl exploit the bad areas of the game again
11/21/2007 5:04:03 PM ** yea
11/21/2007 5:04:06 PM Felin and?
11/21/2007 5:04:07 PM ** all last night and this morning
11/21/2007 5:04:11 PM Felin :-O
11/21/2007 5:04:11 PM ** annoying as ****
11/21/2007 5:04:15 PM Felin how
11/21/2007 5:04:17 PM ** I played torlan end game for 30 minutes
11/21/2007 5:04:28 PM ** they bring the orb back every 10 seconds to bring their node back up
11/21/2007 5:04:53 PM ** these nobodies terrible at mantas in 2k4
11/21/2007 5:04:54 PM ** are gods now
11/21/2007 5:04:59 PM ** I can win on foot with an avril
11/21/2007 5:05:00 PM Felin heh
11/21/2007 5:05:03 PM ** but the avril is being gay
11/21/2007 5:05:07 PM ** comes out as duds sometimes
11/21/2007 5:05:09 PM ** tons of no regs
11/21/2007 5:05:10 PM Felin ew
11/21/2007 5:05:13 PM Felin I remember that
11/21/2007 5:05:19 PM Felin more so than 2k4?
11/21/2007 5:05:19 PM ** trip rox dont kill mantas incoming
11/21/2007 5:05:22 PM ** dont even knock back
11/21/2007 5:05:26 PM Felin oh god D:

11/21/2007 5:06:21 PM Felin there are three manta knock back weapons though
11/21/2007 5:06:31 PM ** it moves too fast to matter