Why in-game advertisements are good?

[chu::LOB::]

Unlike many other companies (and EA specifically) Epic does a terrific job of supporting their releases with bugfixes and patch releases. They also release *LOADS* of free content in the form of bonus packs.

Personally, I wouldn't be averse to seeing adverts in-map if it meant that Epic could fund continuing support of UT3 during its lifecycle. We, the players of the game would benefit from more timely patches and more *GOOD* maps.

TL;DR
Would gladly watch adverts for a constantly updated UTSecure.

[jacobi289]

advertisements, no. not-so-subtle product placements, yes.

Billboards with ads are a bad idea. Replacing adrenaline vials with cans of Pepsi is much better IMO.

[JaFO]

Please ... no.

I'd rather pay a monthly fee for access to servers if that is what it takes.
But I sure as hell do not want to see any advertisements of any kind in games.
I play games because it is the one place where you aren't bombarded with advertisements and "product placement".

[chu::LOB::]

Please ... no.

I'd rather pay a monthly fee for access to servers if that is what it takes.
But I sure as hell do not want to see any advertisements of any kind in games.
I play games because it is the one place where you aren't bombarded with advertisements and "product placement".

That's an interesting point. Here is the US it's much the same, but I feel sort of numb to adverts and product placement. And imagine the sort of revenue stream Valve would have had they sold Coke instead of Pop Dog.

[Jonny]

It makes me angry that you would dare to promote such a thing in games. Life is an information overload enough with adverts bombarding us on the road, the street, TV, radio, magazines - its insane and very annoying. Advertising doesnt work on me at a concious or subconcious level. If i want something i buy it, if i don't i don't. No amount of shoving it in my face is going to change that!

I hope everyone here would agree with me that any game producer that decides advertising at me in its product is a good idea can say goodbye to me ever buying anything they make, again....ever.

(and i would never pay a monthly fee for any game either - what a rip)

[Ultron]

No. The last thing the game needs as immersion-breaking is displaying Pepsi ads from today in a setting 300+ years in the future. It also detracts from some of the seriousness of the setting with that sort of crap.

[chu::LOB::]

I hope everyone here would agree with me that any game producer that decides advertising at me in its product is a good idea can say goodbye to me ever buying anything they make, again....ever.

(and i would never pay a monthly fee for any game either - what a rip)

i think the most valid point in the thread so far is how to prevent the advert from being and "immersion breaker".

for Jonny, how exactly would you like to see Epic paid for continuing development efforts?

would you like to have ongoing support for the game farmed out to the community?

[JaFO]

i think the most valid point in the thread so far is how to prevent the advert from being and "immersion breaker".

for Jonny, how exactly would you like to see Epic paid for continuing development efforts?

by doing the same thing we've done before : by buying their games and expansions.
Besides ... they're selling licenses, so they should have plenty of money to burn on 'useless' stuff like building and maintaining a game they like ?

would you like to have ongoing support for the game farmed out to the community?

I wouldn't trust the community to do this, because 'they' couldn't provide support for a 'missing' gametype like Assault.

[Lithic]

I wouldnt have any problem with in game ads as long as they were neatly done and placed.

Billboards in an urban enviorment for example I wouldnt have any problems with, even if it did advertise Pepsi or whatever, they could always snazz up the ad to make it look more futuristic and alien or whatever.

Product placement done well would also work, but is usually harder to pull off in a game like this I feel, for an example of product placement gone horribly WRONG check out Splinter Cell Chaos Theorys cutscenes, aweful aweful stuff.

The trick is to really tone it all down a lot so it's dosent get distracting but still have the companys willing to pay for the exposure.

[JaFO]

but if it doesn't distract then the advertisement doesn't work ...

*distracting* is what 'good' advertisements do ...
that is why a movie like "I, robot" is one long advertisement with a few stunts thrown in between.

[fuegerstef]

It can work in racing games.

So I say: Bring ads into Assault/Warfare-Race maps... ...leave the decent maps alone.

[JaFO]

it only 'works' in those games, because people have accepted ads in racing.
If we accept those things in 'regular' games then people will think that they ought to be standard in 'new' games ... so better stop this trend before it even begins.

[Wormbo]

Personally I don't like ads in any way. But there's a simple practical reason "next generation" (god, I hat that phrase ) games shouldn't include in-game ads: Framerate and ping. "Pros" are whiney about framerate and ping and in-game ads would affect both because the ad textures deen to be displayed (framerate) and somehow there needs to be a feature keeping track of how many players have the ad in their view, how long and at which angle. This is usually the server's job, so it affects ping.
Also it doesn't really work with custom maps because the ads would be included in third-party property (the map) without the author profiting from it. Epic makes a whole lot of money from the UT and GoW series and not to mention by licensing the engine (ok, they may have to spend a bit because of a certain not-to-be-named licensee - you know who I mean, but please don't make this thread disappear by commenting on that), so I don't think they really need to annoy players with in-game ads.

[Lithic]

but if it doesn't distract then the advertisement doesn't work ...

*distracting* is what 'good' advertisements do ...
that is why a movie like "I, robot" is one long advertisement with a few stunts thrown in between.

I disagree. Distracting advertisements are just sloppy. Take the latest Bond movie, had heaps and heaps of product placement and I didnt once feel distracted by it, I hardly even noticed it. Hockey, racing, golfing, all examples of entertainment that uses advertisements VERY heavily and yet I've never felt distracted by it when watching a game/race/tour.

It becoming standard is a very viable fear, but if it means we can have (for example) MMOs free of a monthly charge, or games like UT3 for a fraction of the cost it is at now then I feel it might very well be worth it. Again, provided it is done right.

The price-cutting might also very well reduce piracy which would help the developers even further and coupled with online distribution could cut a lot of costs and help further the medium.

[StalwartUK]

No, we already paid for the game, so why have to put up with crappy adverts that no one really cares about? And besides, if they were in the game people would just figure out a way to remove them anyway.

[DeathBooger]

Advertisements are pointless in UT3 since half of the content used by players will be custom content. Modders sure as hell won't put ads in their creations unless they get paid a hefty penny.

[Skill]

advertisements, no. not-so-subtle product placements, yes.

Billboards with ads are a bad idea. Replacing adrenaline vials with cans of Pepsi is much better IMO.

I would be fine with a billboard or 2 in a few levels. having to pick up cans of pepsi constantly i would not (altho, i dont like pepsi). I don't think they'd do anything extreme if they decide they want ingame adverts

[Da Spadger]

Heh, I guess there would be a UT3 version of adblock released almost right away after UT3s release then. :D

[JaFO]

I disagree. Distracting advertisements are just sloppy. Take the latest Bond movie, had heaps and heaps of product placement and I didnt once feel distracted by it,

I knew there was something wrong with that movie ... I always wondered why they just 'happened' to be driving the latest model Ford, when Bond only ever drives an Aston Martin. Never mind that product-placement is precisely why Bond's movies have become crappier with every release.

I hardly even noticed it. Hockey, racing, golfing, all examples of entertainment that uses advertisements VERY heavily and yet I've never felt distracted by it when watching a game/race/tour.

which is why I rarely if ever watch tv anymore. There's advertisements and product-placement in every frellin' program.

It becoming standard is a very viable fear, but if it means we can have (for example) MMOs free of a monthly charge, or games like UT3 for a fraction of the cost it is at now then I feel it might very well be worth it. Again, provided it is done right.

I'd rather pay double if that is what it takes to keep all the advertisements out of my games. Far too many media have been corrupted by that already.
Did movies get any better thanks to productplacement and advertisements ?
No they didn't, instead we are paying for advertisements that last 90+ minutes ...

The price-cutting might also very well reduce piracy which would help the developers even further and coupled with online distribution could cut a lot of costs and help further the medium.

there is no way any price-cutting is going to occur, because 'they' (the publishers) are the ones that reap the benifit of reduced costs and not us.
Why else do you think that Steam-based software is just as expensive as the real thing ?

Piracy occurs because it is possible and there's no chance of getting caught.
Sure ... some additional sales will occur if the price drops, but it would have to be a significant drop such as selling it for < $20 ...

[chu::LOB::]

Personally I don't like ads in any way. But there's a simple practical reason "next generation" (god, I hat that phrase ) games shouldn't include in-game ads: Framerate and ping. "Pros" are whiney about framerate and ping and in-game ads would affect both because the ad textures deen to be displayed (framerate) and somehow there needs to be a feature keeping track of how many players have the ad in their view, how long and at which angle. This is usually the server's job, so it affects ping.
Also it doesn't really work with custom maps because the ads would be included in third-party property (the map) without the author profiting from it. Epic makes a whole lot of money from the UT and GoW series and not to mention by licensing the engine (ok, they may have to spend a bit because of a certain not-to-be-named licensee - you know who I mean, but please don't make this thread disappear by commenting on that), so I don't think they really need to annoy players with in-game ads.

I can't imagine how displaying an ad texture would take up any more processing power (client side) than any other similarly detailed texture... And how *much* increased load ad-serving would generate is entirely up to the cleverness of the people coding the advert software... As far as third party property, couldn't Epic also release texture packs that offer adverts with *ROYALTY* images/software?!?

Can you guys see the opportunities for mappers who create good maps that get loads of playtime?

Just imagine if Goose2k4 had been released using a set of Epic Approved "licensed" texture packs with ad banners... In the NA TDM and TAM communities, this map is played more often than 90% of Epic's maps. Imagine if Soma (Goose2k4's author) got something like pennies per thousand views of those adverts? Even with the bulk of the advertising dollars going to Epic, he'd have a nice (and well deserved I might add) stream of royalty checks for his work.

But back to my original point, however shrouded it was: who's going to pay for updates/patches/map packs/content and continuing development of security software that prevents people from ruining online play?

Do you think Epic should pay out of pocket? If you do think so, explain to me how it could possibly benefit them to support a game past the first year of it's release? Shouldn't the users playing online share the cost of continued development?

And I'd rather have ads than a monthly subscription fee.

So in short:
-Limited or no advertising in "Offline" mode.
-Way for custom content authors to make royalties based on how popular their maps are.
-Billboards and/or product placement (the advertisers can certainly develop "future brand indentities" for product) in "Online" mode.

[Sam Stride]

Please please please, no advertising epic, please. I want the experience to remain unreal, so dont bring in any real world advertising, please please.

very very bad idea to have adverts in games, as it is streets are filled with them, dont want to see games filled with them.

[HoMeRS}i{MpSoN]

I hope everyone here would agree with me that any game producer that decides advertising at me in its product is a good idea can say goodbye to me ever buying anything they make, again....ever.

(and i would never pay a monthly fee for any game either - what a rip)

So does that mean you will never watch TV or movies again?

I mean, when you see a can of Coke in a movie, that is product placement. If it is not obrusive then who gives a flip? Personally, seeing a advert for a video card in UT3 is NOT going to affect me in any way shape or form - from my perspective it is a waste of money on the advertiser's part. Its not like seeing someone using a product in a re-run of friends is going to make me run out and buy it.

The fact is, if you don't like advertising you can opt out. just don't use the service in question (TV, radio, movies, newspapers, etc.), or in this case don't buy the game. As long as people are spending money, there will always be advertising...

On another topic, there is absolutely no reason for a montly fee in UT3. Epic (or Midway) is not going to host the servers. Well there is the stats server, but you should be able to opt out if they want to charge for it (i don't really care about stats personally). UT2k3/4 content updates was pretty much restricted to bug fixes. Sure there was the ECE updates, that was to sell more copies of the game (otherwise they wouldn't have made the download free). Making patches to fix bugs is part of being a software developer...

[karmatized]

at best i would say a little image of something in the corner during map downloads is acceptable

[chu::LOB::]

does the Nvidia logo every time you load the game bother you? it doesn't bother me 1 bit.

would maploading logos of manufacturers bother you? it wouldn't bother me at all.

there are several bugs in 2k4 that never got fixed (dud rox and flak for example).

as far as security goes; how do propose Epic creates funding for that? i would not be surprised if UTsecure's lack of support after the first few months of 2k4 was more due to a lack of dedicated funding than anything else.

keeping up with malicious 13-18 year olds and less than ethical programmers out to sell their products for $65 is expensive; i'd bet it could be anywhere into 6 figures a year for a qualified staff of 1-2.

maybe wormbo can answer this one:
while AntiTCC was in development (from 2004 till november of 2005, roughly 2 years) how many man hours of work and testing (roughly) did you invest in AntiTCC?

now multiply x $50 and you have an idea of what a collossal cost security could be.

AND WORMBO DID THIS FOR FREE (to the best of my knowledge)

and I'm thankful for his efforts, but wish that the support had come from the source

[Mort_Q]

I wouldn't mind event advertisements ingame... on billboards... like E3 '08, or UT3 tournaments...

[{DvT}JonahHex]

I am constantly amazed when I read about references to "product placement" in movies because I never see it. Yeah, I rememeber a big Coke billboard that got destroyed in some movie I saw but I couldn't tell you what movie it was. I, Robot was mentioned here a "big ad with some action in between" but, myself, I couldn't give you a single example of this.

However, the best examples of the effectiveness of in-game advertising I can think of are in UT maps: The hellbender puts the player's name on the license: sometimes I notice my own name on it when I 1st jump into one, then I never notice it again until the next time I start off in another one - I cannot recall ever seeing/noticing another player's name on the hellbender license plate. Secondly, the streaming billboard in Morpheus puts up the leading player's name. While I am aware of this, I almost never look at it; in the same rooms there are other static billboards - when I first played the maps, I looked at them - now I have no idea what they are about other than a vague recollection that they relate to the Tournament.

Unreal is too fast a game for advertising to be of any use other than to have the players note it is there, snarl, and get back to the game. I can see it as having some potential in slower paced games such as RPGs or strat games, but my feeling is that in FPSs the bottom line effect would be negative: "Thank you for reminding me not buy your POS product...if I even remember what your product is at the end of the map."

[Xenocide]

I do not want ads in the maps. Having them in the corner of the menu or while downloading a map is ok, but I'd rather not have any at all.

[utzBluesman]

If the advertise is not polluting the game visual and aid to help on good (I meant VERY very good) servers to be free, I see no problem.

[corax]

the whole concept of unreal tournament does look like gladiators fighting in an arena bigger than the octagon... with weapons... and many fighters at once... if it had advertisements i'll be ok with it, because it will help various aspects of the game to stay on a top level. this is mostly AC and bonus packs.

[Zoë(Co30)]

does the Nvidia logo every time you load the game bother you? it doesn't bother me 1 bit.

would maploading logos of manufacturers bother you? it wouldn't bother me at all.

there are several bugs in 2k4 that never got fixed (dud rox and flak for example).

as far as security goes; how do propose Epic creates funding for that? i would not be surprised if UTsecure's lack of support after the first few months of 2k4 was more due to a lack of dedicated funding than anything else.

keeping up with malicious 13-18 year olds and less than ethical programmers out to sell their products for $65 is expensive; i'd bet it could be anywhere into 6 figures a year for a qualified staff of 1-2.

maybe wormbo can answer this one:
while AntiTCC was in development (from 2004 till november of 2005, roughly 2 years) how many man hours of work and testing (roughly) did you invest in AntiTCC?

now multiply x $50 and you have an idea of what a collossal cost security could be.

AND WORMBO DID THIS FOR FREE (to the best of my knowledge)

and I'm thankful for his efforts, but wish that the support had come from the source

I think a map loading ad would work ok. I wouldn't even mind in game billboards if they fit the map ok, but that would be a problem. I wouldn't trust ad companies to do tasteful in game ads, but during loading screens, who cares? It's down time anyway, so if Epic could make a couple of dollars doing that, fine.

[Wormbo]

does the Nvidia logo every time you load the game bother you? it doesn't bother me 1 bit.

*cough*NoIntro.ut2*cough*

maybe wormbo can answer this one:
while AntiTCC was in development (from 2004 till november of 2005, roughly 2 years) how many man hours of work and testing (roughly) did you invest in AntiTCC?

Far too many to be able to count them.

AND WORMBO DID THIS FOR FREE

Yeah, big mistake. Won't happen again.

[T1tusCr0w]

u got to give it to them free the 1st time so they know what they are missing if u take it away ; )

on adds - no way man unless they make styilized futureistic versions of there adds, then it might add a little ambiance on some maps where the setting was right.

why do epic support the game? because if they left us high and dry after 1 year they would never have the good faith of the community again and would find it harder to sell the next game they had out. also maybe these guys who have made a game for 2-3 years want it to do well and last as long as possible as they really dig what they created?

[da ghost]

Please ... no.

I'd rather pay a monthly fee for access to servers if that is what it takes.
But I sure as hell do not want to see any advertisements of any kind in games.
I play games because it is the one place where you aren't bombarded with advertisements and "product placement".

anyone who thinks that there's no ads in games should boot up a stock UT2004 game and see the giant logo you're staring at.

[Wormbo]

I wouldn't consider that "in-game" really. It's just a start-up logo thingy. And you can completely and permanently disable it, if you like.

[Xyx]

Advertisement is an evil that must be stamped out.

Anything more than a "best played with X" at the start (that I can remove) and Epic doesn't get any money from me.

If ads are the way to free bonus packs, then I'd rather not have free bonus packs.

[Taleweaver]

Clear and simple:

I stopped watching TV because they started focussing on telling me what stuff I need to have in order to be happy.
I'll stop playing video games if they start going that direction (I disabled that intro screen pretty much since day 1).

[AleGenoa]

I think they should put some ads here and there, strictly uninteresting to teenagers, like baby diapers, home improvement, insurances, counseling services, home appliances...
That way a day in the future, when a wife drags her husband to the nearest Ikea, he is all: "Uhm, yeah, well...ok... I remember that Ikea from when I used to play UT when I was a boy".

[harrier_rada]

I think some of you are super paranoid about advertising/product placement. Every single movie/TV show that has someone drinking Coca Cola or Pepsi is using product placement....is it that bad for you? Would you rather have them drinking some bogus brand that doesn't exist? Would you have driving cars by fake companies?

As for billboards and such, as somebody else pointed out, this is a fast pace game. You won't have time to look around and stare at billboards, so if they want to put it in there, let them.

BF2142 has billboard advertising, and imo they did it very well. There was a huge uproar in the BF community, and yet when they implemented the ads most people didnt' even notice. They were blowing things out of porportion, just like you guys.

To whomever said that the point of advertising was to distract you and get your attention, in many cases it is not, especially in relation to games. Take product placement, for example. If done correctly it is very subtle, yet very effective. Good advertising in things such as movies, tv, and now games relies on subtlety. The more you see a specific product the more you are willing to use that product. That is the whole point of product placement. Their goal is to get you so familiar with their brand that when you want a new car you go to them, or when you are thirsty you want their beverage, its not supposed to jump out at you and get you to buy that product right then and there.

[fuegerstef]

Anything more than a "best played with X" at the start (that I can remove) and Epic doesn't get any money from me.

Please uninstall immediately and get you money back from EPIC.

[Ultron]

Well to be fair those files are hosted at FasterFiles, IIRC. I think it's a fair tradeoff, especially since FF got it's start hosting many Unreal files nobody else did, or before most other sites got them.