Is the 360 version limited?

[Goobers]

sorry i should have put "EVERY single desktop computer that a typical/average person has to have in order to operate."...I mean i was responding to someone who, well you read what he said, do you think he even understands what you just posted .

i just knew someone was going to call me out on that...

i'd call people out on grammar... but i'm not that much of a "no soup for you" guy. plus the fact that on gamespot forums, for some reason, the message box will randomly remove spaces from my posts.

as for mr vinnie... i dunno... in reality, i agree that there is/should be some expectation for PC users to have HDDs (hopefully enough to do everything they want at the time).

[!NITRO!]

Kkrieger.. right.. released quite a while back.. and what a leap it has taken....

[Sublime]

Even if UT3 players will be able to download the extra content online. This still leaves a bit of worry because eventually all games will be too large to fit on DVDs. And with game genres such as RPGs, you can't simply download the excess that doesn't fit on disc. Which means sooner or later, Xbox is going to have to start releasing games on multiple discs, or developers are going to have to cut things out.

Whereas the PS3 discs have 50Gb storage and PC users(while perhaps requiring multiple discs) can simply install the game to their HD anyway and only need the discs once.

[Mort_Q]

No. They'll just sell you a knew and better console with the latest greatest storage media.

How long until we go back to having games on cartridges?

[Goobers]

Whereas the PS3 discs have 50Gb storage and PC users(while perhaps requiring multiple discs) can simply install the game to their HD anyway and only need the discs once.

25 GB if you go single layer BR.

No. They'll just sell you a knew and better console with the latest greatest storage media.

How long until we go back to having games on cartridges?

um... XBox 360 Elite?

the reality is... Xbox 360 CAN do all the content that PC and PS3 will... but ONLY if you go with the Elite version since they have 120 GB drives or buy that drive seperately (current price? about $180)... sure you could try to fit it on the non-elite 20 GB hdd... of that 20 only 13 is usable (the "rest" is system space).

but... like i said... for a company to do that, it would mean a "requirements" kinda deal of the 120 GB drive... and you know what happens then? a boat load of people coming on the forums... making just about as much noise as we are.

[Sublime]

No. They'll just sell you a knew and better console with the latest greatest storage media.

How long until we go back to having games on cartridges?

True.

I give it 9 years. With the way flash storage is going these days, it could very well be possible. >_< But that's going completely off topic.

[numonex]

with that 96KB... what can be done? as the wiki said, most of the space on the DVD from UT2003/2004 isn't from the level information, but from the engine (which runs not only graphics, but physics, audio and AI processes) and textures.

there's a bit more to it than just level generation.

Agreed but the majority of the space is taken by textures and sounds. Download it and play it. Mind you its just a demo and a little buggy but when playing it remember that it can fit on a floppy 10 times over. Its pretty amazing. Now I am not saying that 360 games can fit on floppies but if I am not mistaken a significan amount of space savings can be claimed by fully implimenting this approach.

I dont ever se it happening though. Developers tend to port games, which means they are not going to recreate from the ground up just to use this process. that is pretty sad.

[Recon42]

The Xbox 360 is not limited. Microsoft is limiting the 360.Epic doesn't know the words of limits.Microsoft practically invented the word "limit"..

[Delirium Trigger]

Well this isnt a very good practice. it makes me not want to support Epic anymore. Does he think that millions of gamers that made him loot with Gears of war is going to just go out and get a PS3 because it is supposed to have more? Personally with all the games that are comming, especially Halo 3 and Bioshock, i just aswell skip over UT3 if it ever comes to 360. Maybe it shouldnt. If they cannot release the complete game then dont release it at all! Dont mess with people pocketbooks like this!

The Xbox 360 is not limited. Microsoft is limiting the 360.Epic doesn't know the words of limits.Microsoft practically invented the word "limit"..

Epic isn't to blame for this. Nore is it Microsoft's. When Microsoft decided to make their console, they wanted it to be affordable and give people options to experience a better generation of games. That basically lead to the fact that they decided to stick with DVD as their media for games over HD-DVD and the different SKUs. Since this gives consumers more affordable options, it "limits" developers with storage options.

If there's anyone there to "blame", it's the consumers. It doesn't pay to be cheap. In the long run, spending just that little extra is worth it.

[Law]

Epic isn't to blame for this. Nore is it Microsoft's. When Microsoft decided to make their console, they wanted it to be affordable and give people options to experience a better generation of games. That basically lead to the fact that they decided to stick with DVD as their media for games over HD-DVD and the different SKUs. Since this gives consumers more affordable options, it "limits" developers with storage options.

If there's anyone there to "blame", it's the consumers. It doesn't pay to be cheap. In the long run, spending just that little extra is worth it.

True that. I'm getting the PC (I want to get into modding) and the ps3 version (so I'll be able to play game at all when the game comes out.).

[JTP709]

Sooo... does that mean the PC / Mac / Linux versions will also have less content? Because the last time i checked most people didn't had a BD drive in their computers. Heck, a lot of them don't even have a DVD drive.

They'll just ship them with multiple DVDs and you can install all of the maps on your computer, duh! They used to and still do that with CDs!!!!!

The maps on the consoles are on the discs and not "installed" to the console drive.

[jambo]

Sooo... does that mean the PC / Mac / Linux versions will also have less content? Because the last time i checked most people didn't had a BD drive in their computers. Heck, a lot of them don't even have a DVD drive.

In the last Steam Hardware Survey, there were 1,047,042 unique samples and out of those, 998,689 had a DVD-ROM drive in their PC. I think it's safe to say that most people have DVD-ROMs nowadays =]

[Illuzionz]

Mark, just in case.. you need not get offended by these newb's. Some people comment before they read..some people comment before they play. It's all part of an open forum where you let people in who just sometimes join to say "epic sucks you like PS3!" then some other guy comes and says "epic sucks cause you like X360!"(you means You as in Mark rein). Now to think of it, aren't those totally contradicting?

All I'd say is, "best of luck to you making a game that makes the history of gaming itself!" "Do what you do best and what you think is really best for the game."

Thanks big time!

I didn't say anything about epic sucks. I was just asking a simple question.

And mark thank you for the news

[jphuff]

I continue to be disappointed that folks on the internet treat any positive thing we say about one platform as some sort of critique of another platform. We're a multi-platform company folks please come to grips with that. We like the PC. We like the 360. We like the PS3. We like the Macintosh. We like Linux. We will deliver UT3 for all of these platforms and it will rock on every one.

The simple facts state that the optical disc on the PS3 holds more data than the optical disc on the 360. If we exceed size of the 360s optical disc then we'll have to find alternative ways to get the content to 360 users such as making it downloadable. Adding a second DVD to a game like UT3 would be a challenge because when playing online you might not know exactly what map you're going to be playing next and we have to be able to accommodate users of the core system. So does that mean the disc on the 360 might have a map or two less? Possibly although it is too early to tell for sure. People love Unreal Tournament because we always ship it with tons of great content but that also makes it a bit of a disc hog - in a good way

Obviously, and as is true with most major games on 360 and PS3, you're going to be putting your hard drive to good use if you want to experience the full richness of content that UT3 will have to offer over the lifetime of the game. the fact that you can do this is a good thing.

I don't know the exact numbers but I suspect the version of Gears of War that most of our customers play today on their 360s, when you combine the downloadable content with the content on the disc, is larger than what we could fit on the 360's optical disc alone. So clearly there are perfectly good strategies to cope with this situation. We're all very used to downloading extra content for console games and with UT3 there will be lots of it for all supported platforms. In fact the cool thing about our engine is that when you make content for one platform it can run on all of them. If history is any indication, the vast majority of UT3 content won't even come from Epic - it will come from some very brilliant end users with lots of cool and innovative ideas.

When it comes to user created mods on the 360 - we will work with Microsoft to find a way to support them. We just don't have all the answers today and it isn't our chief priority at this very moment because we already have our hands completely full shipping UT3 on PC and PS3 as well as shipping Gears of War on PC. When we get those out of the way, and get a little time to spend with our friends and families, then we'll get back on this issue and figure it out.

GOOD FOR EPIC! And GOOD for Mark too!

A developer who is sick of every little word and/or shift of the eyebrow being interpreted as a slam of one platform and/or a blessing of another! I'm so sick of the fanboys running around on this and other issues.

Xbox fans- play your games and stop looking for any little thing you can try and use to jump into the PS3 or other platform forums to try and make yourselves feel superior.

PS3 fans- play your games and don't do the above either. Also, when people jump in to try and use something to make themselves feel better, try IGNORING them and going back to having fun and playing your games. Seriously, this is so ridiculous.

Epic has released good products since the "old" days. I played them on the Mac and PC and they were always good about delivering a good product on whatever platform they released on.

I'm glad Epic cares enough to set things straight. What's sad is that the fanatics can make enough noise that it's noticed even by someone at this high of a level at a company. It's truly ridiculous and makes the installed bases look like they have an average age of about 6. That's 6 years old and living on the island with the 'Lord of the Flies!'

Kudo's to Epic for taking a stand. Hopefully everyone will settle the hell down and leave each other alone. Platforms all have their respective strengths. Pick one, or multiples, and go have fun. And leave everyone else and their choices alone!

[jphuff]

They'll just ship them with multiple DVDs and you can install all of the maps on your computer, duh! They used to and still do that with CDs!!!!!

The maps on the consoles are on the discs and not "installed" to the console drive.

Do people not know how to read? The man said there are options. Obviously this includes multiple DVD's and downloading.

BTW, I believe that the PC is actually the biggest market for Unreal games (last time I looked, but could be wrong). PC's have the ability to upgrade hardware. They can use DVD, Blu-Ray, HD-DVD, whatever. GUARANTEE that if anything, the PC has the advantage. Like earlier mentioned, patching is a much easier/shorter process for the PC than a console where it has to be certified, etc.

Point is, content will be around to all platforms somehow. Epic even mentioned that if need be they could make releases of user generated content onto XBL. Yes, it's cool to be able to swap between PS3 and PC quickly, but it isn't over yet. 360 could still get this feature and even if not, there will be ways of getting other content.

People need to chill and quit trying to pounce on any little imagined scrap of news to try and make themselves feel superior and put others down. I know it's mostly happening one-sided right now, at least in the initiation, but it doesn't mean that you have to respond to it. You just make yourself look as stupid as those who start the issues.

[Night Shadow]

BTW, I believe that the PC is actually the biggest market for Unreal games (last time I looked, but could be wrong).

ya your right dude pc will always dominate the Unreal franchise. For all you noobs that don't believe me there a couple polls i remember taken back around May i think.
They show that more people will play pc that the other 2 systems combined. Now with that said maps "maybe" missing from the 360 version of the game but i'm confident that Epic will max out the HD cd with a couple of exclusive vehicles or a weapons in place of missing maps. plus you gotta remember xbox 360 has xbox live and epic may put in a clan system "like halo 2 has" or something. PS3 does not have that full capability (yet). If i may say so Sony's to busy copying off Nintendo to care about offering that service quiet yet. The point is Epic will probably balance out the 2 systems somehow and will make your $60 worth spending on all systems. I'm looking forward to a quality product Epic! Unreal Tournament rules!

[ChapsZero112]

Adding a second DVD to a game like UT3 would be a challenge because when playing online you might not know exactly what map you're going to be playing next and we have to be able to accommodate users of the core system.

In that case, couldn't the single player campaign be on one disc, with all the single player content, while the second disc contains all the multiplayer content?
And with the space that may be left on the first disc, fill it with maps that can be decompressed to the hard drive. And release those same maps as downloadable content for the core users that have big enough memory cards. That should tempt them to buy a hard drive so problems with the core users not having storage space do not occur as frequently.
The core system has been holding back to potential of the premium and elite models with the ability to store and decompress data, and I think Microsoft is even noticing that.

[numonex]

I didn't say anything about epic sucks. I was just asking a simple question.

And mark thank you for the news

I dont think anyone here is saying mark or Epic sucks, at least I am not. What I am saying is that if UT releases for 360 at the same price as the PS3 version containing less then I will pass the game over. Sorry but 360 owners should have to pay the same for less. In that respect I may be pigheaded. for that I am sorry.

[Sublime]

In that case, couldn't the single player campaign be on one disc, with all the single player content, while the second disc contains all the multiplayer content?
And with the space that may be left on the first disc, fill it with maps that can be decompressed to the hard drive. And release those same maps as downloadable content for the core users that have big enough memory cards. That should tempt them to buy a hard drive so problems with the core users not having storage space do not occur as frequently.
The core system has been holding back to potential of the premium and elite models with the ability to store and decompress data, and I think Microsoft is even noticing that.

As I already told someone yesterday. Removing the multiplayer aspect would hardly save any space at all, it wouldn't be worth it. And I'd rather have a couple less maps than loose multiplayer functionality.

[GoodBoy]

... The US are not the center of the universe, wich means not every single computer out there has a DVD drive in it. ... Again, the US are not the center of the universe and the rest of the world is very different from your neighborhood, so don't judge everyone else based on your narrow view.

DVD BURNERS can be found online for $30. If you cannot afford a DVD-ROM drive (cheaper than burners), then how will you pay for the game that will cost twice as much (as the dvd drive required to install it)? Steal/Pirate it?

I say for PC's only release it on DVD. It makes more and more sense to do this these days. I myself prefer games on DVD, and when looking for a certain game if I find that one store only has it on CDROM I wait and continue looking and try to get it on DVD.

For the Xbox360, just release it on 2 or 3 DVD's (however many it takes), and make the game require a hardrive. 2 of the discs can be installed into the Xbox360 hardrive. This would make the game likely load up faster anyway, running from the HD instead of the DVD.

I can't wait for the PC DVD-rom version.

[numonex]

I think they are too bent on not smiting the core owners by requiring the HDD. Personally I have the 120GB HDD so I dont care. I dont see it going this route but who knows. I think it is going to have to be PC version for me. Was hoping for a good 360 version because of live but PC should be fine.

[GoodBoy]

Well, how many people actually that bought a core system have not upgraded and added a hardrive? For one it is required for compatibility with xbox games. Two, it's a much better save game mechanism.

Requiring a hardrive will affect a very small xbox360 population. That is preferred to leaving stuff out for 95% of the xbox360 community who have hardrives.

If they MUST make it somehow compatible for core users, then when installing the game, users could be given a choice, to either install the extra content on dvd's 2 and 3 to the hardrive (Recommended), play in "Core" mode only, where some maps and content isn't available, or play in "Core - Swap" mode, where the disc must be changed when content is on the 2nd or 3rd DVD.

[Wenty]

can they not just release it on 2 discs?

[Sublime]

can they not just release it on 2 discs?

Oh good Lord. Please go and read the rest of the thread.

[Wenty]

Oh good Lord. Please go and read the rest of the thread.

I take that as a "it cant be done" then?

[Sublime]

I take that as a "it cant be done" then?

Take it as a 'this has already been discussed and the obvious flaws with releasing it on two discs'

[spikestabber]

If MS wouldn't limit the DVD9 disk to 7gb for game data due to DRM and hologram junk this wouldn't be a problem. Heck, as it stands a PS2 has more room for game data on a DVD9 (full capacity) than the 360 does. That extra 1gb would be what Epic needs (and im sure a lot of other developers too, before having to resort to watering/chopping things down).

[umdk1d3]

Mark, thank you and your team very much for keeping the Linux version alive. Gaming is tough on Linux, but UT2k4 has been awesome. Keep up the great work.

[Hickeroar]

Sooo... does that mean the PC / Mac / Linux versions will also have less content? Because the last time i checked most people didn't had a BD drive in their computers. Heck, a lot of them don't even have a DVD drive.

[expanded for clarification, since some people like to criticize without knowing any facts]

The US are not the center of the universe, wich means not every single computer out there has a DVD drive in it.

Pressing 1 DVD is roughly the cost of pressing 4 CDs, that was the reason given a few years back for UT2004s 6 CDs (yes, i know the SCE version came out in a DVD, but that was a limited edition)
I don't think they'll be pressing more than 1 DVD for this game even if it's for the PC. It's probably not cost effective. My 2 cents are on a 1 DVD edition with the missing stuff being available through download, leaving those still living with 56K or without internet unable to access this content.

Yes, there are still people without internet or on 56k modems with machines capable of playing this game. Remember that most UT2003/2004 buyers NEVER played online.
Again, the US are not the center of the universe and the rest of the world is very different from your neighborhood, so don't judge everyone else based on your narrow view.

Did you even think before posting this?

A) Pressing a BR disc costs TONS more than pressing a DVD, let alone a CD. The cost of making the discs is utterly irrelevant here. If they were *that* worried about the cost of media production, they wouldn't be going anywhere near the PS3...

B) PCs will install the entire game to the HDD, so spreading the game across *ten* discs wouldn't be an issue once it was installed.

C) 360 Owners do NOT install content to their HDDs off the discs because MS has stated that games on the 360 can NOT "require" an HDD. This obviously presents a logistical problem for multi-disc games... It's not impossible, but it will require some work because in a game like UT, how can you determine WHEN a user should trade out the disc? In a normal game you play up to a certian point and then trade out the disc. This is not the case with UT.

Use your brain next time.

[Hickeroar]

You know what?? Yes I can read and I am a computer engineer.

LOL as if that means jack crap in regards to your argument. You just lost all argumentative credibility with that statement.

[Hickeroar]

I think they are too bent on not smiting the core owners by requiring the HDD. Personally I have the 120GB HDD so I dont care. I dont see it going this route but who knows. I think it is going to have to be PC version for me. Was hoping for a good 360 version because of live but PC should be fine.

If you have a PC that can run the game, it'd be utterly STUPID not to get it over any of the console versions. Consoles suck for FPS games compared to PCs...period. Console versions are out for the people who have consoles and can't afford to build an expensive gaming rig. There just happen to be a lot of them, so console versions of games are pretty much a must anymore. You sacrifice graphical quality, controls, (storage space), etc for a better initial investment pricetag.

Saying the PC version just "should be fine" is doing the incredible virtues of the platform a severe injustice.

Buying PC over Console (given adequate pc hardware) is a no brainer.

[chu::LOB::]

Sooo... does that mean the PC / Mac / Linux versions will also have less content? Because the last time i checked most people didn't had a BD drive in their computers. Heck, a lot of them don't even have a DVD drive.

As of 2004, the installed DVD-ROM base was estimated at over 26 million units:
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a

If you want more detailed and current stats on DVD-Adoption (most home computers sold in the last three years have them as standard) you can purchase a comparative study here for $4,500:

http://idc.com/research/viewtoc.jsp;...ainerId=207487

If you have a PC that can run the game, it'd be utterly STUPID not to get it over any of the console versions. Consoles suck for FPS games compared to PCs...period... You sacrifice graphical quality, controls, (storage space), etc for a better initial investment pricetag.

Explain how PS3 + Mouse and Keyboard for $500 is a bad idea if $500 worth of upgrades wouldn't get me equal framerate?

As it stands, I'll have to replace mainboard, CPU, ram, vidcard and PSU. And that looks like about $1,000...

[Goobers]

As of 2004, the installed DVD-ROM base was estimated at over 26 million units:
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a

If you want more detailed and current stats on DVD-Adoption (most home computers sold in the last three years have them as standard) you can purchase a comparative study here for $4,500:

http://idc.com/research/viewtoc.jsp;...ainerId=207487



Explain how PS3 + Mouse and Keyboard for $500 is a bad idea if $500 worth of upgrades wouldn't get me equal framerate?

As it stands, I'll have to replace mainboard, CPU, ram, vidcard and PSU. And that looks like about $1,000...

to be fair, he did say...

If you have a PC that can run the game,

i think he meant "if you ALREADY have a PC that can run the game..."

[Skill]

Explain how PS3 + Mouse and Keyboard for $500 is a bad idea if $500 worth of upgrades wouldn't get me equal framerate?

pc framerate>console framerate

Period. I hate to say it, being i will get it on ps3, but pc will have better possible framerate than console. And ut3 is being made to run well on midrange pcs. u can get a new pc that'll run it for less than $1000

[T1tusCr0w]

ut3 is a pc game through and through! now dont get me wrong i have always had consoles too from ps1/ps2/xb/gamecube etc - but they are 2 different types of experience. the pc you are siting at your pc the screen is smaller and you use it for different types of games. in my case it is fps / and rts ( mainly ut2004 and coh ) due to mouse and keyboards the pc does these games much better than console - this isnt even an argument its a statment.
that said sprawling out infront of the new large HD tv with a racing game beat em up or sometimes even a fps can be just the thing, you dont have as much control if course but you do have more comfort and its nice to see the game in the big screen with the 5.1sound system the pc is hardcore mode the console = more fun mode relaxing mode, or using it for something that the pc doesnt have / do as well
these are just my personal opinions on this subject.
ps - after seing bioshock at my friends house on his 360 i am taking advantage of the 24th being the elite release day and bioshock release ( in the uk ) and getting both as i feel this is a perfect example of a fps that is very good played in the console enviroment. whatever platform you have remember to enjoy the coming months we are heading into the good part of the year for us gamers and its been lean so far ; )

[L'enculeur]

Pressing 1 DVD is roughly the cost of pressing 4 CDs, that was the reason given a few years back for UT2004s 6 CDs (yes, i know the SCE version came out in a DVD, but that was a limited edition)
I don't think they'll be pressing more than 1 DVD for this game even if it's for the PC. It's probably not cost effective.

Umm, at the moment, any end-user could go to some big PC store and buy a spindle of 50-75DVD for a price so low that it end up making each DVD+R (4.7Gb, not dual-layer) 33¢/Each and that's in Canadian price so my *** that it's more expensive than 4 CDs.

[whirabomber]

Bioshock (based on the demo) was good on the 360 but I still like the idea of modding on the pc.

Anyways, a way to sort out the 360 issue with where to keep all the maps, why not just make the missing maps downloadable for free via live? Although a bit costlier than say the 2 disk option, it is still a solution. MS has stated it will allow MMORPGS to require the hard drive and technically, UT3 would be playable without a hd, it would just rock more with a HD.

[numonex]

LOL as if that means jack crap in regards to your argument. You just lost all argumentative credibility with that statement.

Oh im sorry, when did I ask you for your opinion?

[numonex]

Bioshock (based on the demo) was good on the 360 but I still like the idea of modding on the pc.

Anyways, a way to sort out the 360 issue with where to keep all the maps, why not just make the missing maps downloadable for free via live? Although a bit costlier than say the 2 disk option, it is still a solution. MS has stated it will allow MMORPGS to require the hard drive and technically, UT3 would be playable without a hd, it would just rock more with a HD.

Who knows. I personally dont care anymore. i just sank 2 DX10 cards in my PC (SLI) and I will be getting an Agia physics add on card as soon as it arrives in the mail. My system will run this game 10 times over. I actually downloaded the Bioshock Demo to test out my PC (less the physics card since it isnt here yet) and my PC runs it with ease.

PC version for me

[Goobers]

Who knows. I personally dont care anymore. i just sank 2 DX10 cards in my PC (SLI) and I will be getting an Agia physics add on card as soon as it arrives in the mail. My system will run this game 10 times over. I actually downloaded the Bioshock Demo to test out my PC (less the physics card since it isnt here yet) and my PC runs it with ease.

PC version for me

just as a reminder... Bioshock uses Havok... so there'd be little to no point in testing the demo with the PPU.

you can try, but don't expect any performance boost. i don't expect any performance loss either, since it shouldn't kick in to try anything... but the fact the drivers are installed may or may not affect you.