will UT3 have instagib as a default gametype?

[cato]

Hi,

First of all, don't bore me with your NW versus iG arguments.

Since the patch 3323 instagib CTF is a default gametype in UT2004. Now my Question to Epic: Will we have a default iCTF gametype for UT3 like in UT2k4 aswell?
I hope it is possible, because the european UT szene is more active in iCTF as in all others. So please Epic put this gametype into UT3 again.

[Lert]

I wonder what the difference - in forms of practicality - would be between having iCTF as a votable gametype or i as a votable mut for CTF, or gametypes in general .. I'd much, MUCH rather have normal weapons as standard selection (hence the 'normal' in the name) and i as a votable add-on, instead of further diluting the list of 'standard' gametypes by making a distinction between CTF and iCTF as stock gametypes ..

[MonsOlympus]

Yeah I never understood why instagib got bigger then a mutator, I think it might have more to do with the coding possibilities myself. Like mutant as well they seemed more like DM mutator material in a sense rather then a gametype on its own.

Im sure its popular like DM with the instagib mutator but I dont think popularity should determine whether something gets merged into another gametype or stay as a mutator etc. I myself agree with Epics decision on the other CTF types being under the same gametype heading of CTF so I dont think instagib CTF should be any different.

So yeah, Im pretty sure the instagib mutator will return either way but as to the CTF gametype with a few extra options for instagib, I dunno. I would like to see this done in a mutator and allow the adjustments like boosting done in a mutator as well.

I do hope that mutators will be able to get more options in UT3 without causing compatibility problems like with mutators which replace pawn classes for eg. Im not sure how easy it would be to work around in the actual engine type code but for gameplay stuff people can avoid it if they can to some extent sometimes its quicker to just replace pawn or not possible to do things any other way

[Raynor]

IG don't need it's own gametype. In that way we could make endless additional gametypes like IDM, ITDM, ICTF Insta-whatever...
Mutator is just fine.

[Magwa]

Yeah I never understood why instagib got bigger then a mutator, I think it might have more to do with the coding possibilities myself. Like mutant as well they seemed more like DM mutator material in a sense rather then a gametype on its own.

Im sure its popular like DM with the instagib mutator but I dont think popularity should determine whether something gets merged into another gametype or stay as a mutator etc. I myself agree with Epics decision on the other CTF types being under the same gametype heading of CTF so I dont think instagib CTF should be any different.

So yeah, Im pretty sure the instagib mutator will return either way but as to the CTF gametype with a few extra options for instagib, I dunno. I would like to see this done in a mutator and allow the adjustments like boosting done in a mutator as well.

I do hope that mutators will be able to get more options in UT3 without causing compatibility problems like with mutators which replace pawn classes for eg. Im not sure how easy it would be to work around in the actual engine type code but for gameplay stuff people can avoid it if they can to some extent sometimes its quicker to just replace pawn or not possible to do things any other way

The reason it got bigger ?? More people played it than just about any other gametype...and there are no vehicles in a insta CTF game (how could you insta gibb a tank??)..so it might be better to have insta CTF as a gametype and then add a NW mutator to it and viola no vehicles in CTF...which i think is the way it should be ..it makes no difference to me i am fine with NW as gametype and insta as a mutator either way keep the tires out of the game.

[Hedge-o-Matic]

I think the root problem behind the Vehicle/No-vehicle/Insta gametype controversy is that the server filter functions of 2k4 simply weren't up to snuff. There's no need to have a different gametype for every possible variation of CTF, since a gametype, by definition, defines the winning rules, and CTF never mandates that you have to drive anywhere to win, even if vehicles are present, nor do you have to use your weapons in any way to score. Obviously, in practice, you do have to use the weapons during a game, but this isn't strictly needed, as a game without bots shows. You don't need to do anything beyond touching the flag to your occupied flagbase.

The only reason DM and TDM aren't handled with a checkbox option, even though the rules for winning are the same, is that free-for-all games are inherently different than team games in ways that a simple piece of equipment (such as the TL, instagib rifle, or a vehicle) cannot match.

I think all CTF variants should be handled as the same gametype, but with the caveat that the server browser filtering system must be beefed up to handle the job of properly discriminating between servers with each variety of option.

[MonsOlympus]

I think the root problem behind the Vehicle/No-vehicle/Insta gametype controversy is that the server filter functions of 2k4 simply weren't up to snuff. There's no need to have a different gametype for every possible variation of CTF, since a gametype, by definition, defines the winning rules, and CTF never mandates that you have to drive anywhere to win, even if vehicles are present, nor do you have to use your weapons in any way to score. Obviously, in practice, you do have to use the weapons during a game, but this isn't strictly needed, as a game without bots shows. You don't need to do anything beyond touching the flag to your occupied flagbase.

The only reason DM and TDM aren't handled with a checkbox option, even though the rules for winning are the same, is that free-for-all games are inherently different than team games in ways that a simple piece of equipment (such as the TL, instagib rifle, or a vehicle) cannot match.

I think all CTF variants should be handled as the same gametype, but with the caveat that the server browser filtering system must be beefed up to handle the job of properly discriminating between servers with each variety of option.

Wow bingo, you are the winner

Infact most gametypes are there purely as map filters and dont add much in the way of rules which would really define a whole gametype anyway they are more like mutator like settings.

I dont think people are looking at the big picture that the merger might have more to do with coding or even the fact a community split 3 ways (namely the CTF one) will become more of a big single community of players which is a good thing. I mean people dont just have to play CTF or iCTF or vCTF hell they could play them all, theres only tiny differences to the stats in those types and that happens to be what you kill with not how many captures you get

But yeah I would be very worried myself if the instagib mutator didnt return again, hey heres a novel idea why dont they code it so it removes the vehicles or even disables them for a set amount of time when you hit them like laser tag. Oh but hey vehikalz suck right

[Hedge-o-Matic]

I think being on a server that dishes out random variations of CTF would be great fun. will the next game have vehicles and no hoverboards? Hoverboards and instagib? Low-grav with hoverboard and normal weapons? Tell me that wouldn't be awesome fun. Screw the old-school provincial "vCTF-only" mindset.

Personally, I think the hoverboard will be the big thing in UT3. This little gem will change the game in very dramatic ways, given that everyone has one. This will make the "fast gameplay at all costs" crowd jump for joy, while being fun for those of us who dislike the particulars of the TL.

[Magwa]

i have to bow to your genius.. you are the winnar!

[TheRealSephiroth]

Instagib...it's own gamemode...why is it necessary? Aren't mutators a cool thing anymore?

[Mort_Q]

(how could you insta gibb a tank??)

You could make an enhanced shock rifle do different damage to vehicles than to players... or just have it force a player out of the vehicle (and lock it for X seconds) after say 3 consecutive hits (within X seconds) or something.

There are lots of ways to do it that might be playable.

[Boksha]

Yes, but most of those kill the point of instagib, being that you instantly gib stuff.

[ne_skaju]

Its better to be a mutator. I 'd like to have ability to add this as gametype myself, but it should not be added by default.

[MonsOlympus]

I think being on a server that dishes out random variations of CTF would be great fun. will the next game have vehicles and no hoverboards? Hoverboards and instagib? Low-grav with hoverboard and normal weapons? Tell me that wouldn't be awesome fun. Screw the old-school provincial "vCTF-only" mindset.

Personally, I think the hoverboard will be the big thing in UT3. This little gem will change the game in very dramatic ways, given that everyone has one. This will make the "fast gameplay at all costs" crowd jump for joy, while being fun for those of us who dislike the particulars of the TL.

Your on the ball today arnt you I feel the same way I would love to see servers which mixed it up alittle using stock mutators for alittle variation. It will add to the overall life of the product because people wont be playing the same one thing day in and day out just to get good at it to pwn, thats where the bottom line is with most "players". With this variation it'll give people who are good at different skills a chance to get on top even if it only happens to be turbo instagib on codex

[Magwa]

NO vehicles Just like NO trans in Insta CTF ...

[fuegerstef]

...I would love to see servers which mixed it up alittle using stock mutators for alittle variation....thats where the bottom line is with most "players".

Maybe they should set up more servers like that then, shouldn't they?

[MonsOlympus]

Maybe they should set up more servers like that then, shouldn't they?

Are you asking or telling? I know Im totally sick of the demo maps myself, I dont even play too much UT2k4 anymore anyway. I got into rpg invasion with weapons of power last but that gets boring after awhile. But yeah I think it would be cool for a server to say well do CTF say infantry only to save alittle face then we hit the randomize instagib mut so every so often on say we set it to random map and have a maplist of the fav's then we get alittle mixing up of things. Not a flawless system but I have lost alittle faith in players to choose a map especially in 2k4, people dont say oh we havent played this one very often its usually pick the first good map (especially in invasion) but yeah its either good map or the same few maps over and over. Servers can even set it to a longer list as well so they stay grey longer which is a pretty decent system but its under used. You might get 3 if your lucky, I have seen an invasion server with like 20odd which takes almost the whole day because people were playing HTC (hold the camp) all the time to get easy lvls.

[DeadPool]

yea, as a mutator only man, it's better for all of us.

[TWD]

It didn't matter one bit that they gave InstaCTF it's own tab. I still have to use filters to stop such servers from showing up in my CTF list. If you're going to give it it's own tab, any server with instagib on it should show up there, and not anywhere else!

Mutators are fun for a while, but then people get bored and go to a different thing. An online community based largely around mutators cannot be stable. You may have noticed that many of the most active longstanding members of our community prefer the normal gameplay. You'll also notice that as the game becomes less popular there are more mutator servers to the point where that's all there is anymore. Epic has tried to remedy the problem in the past, but it just hasn't been enough.

The sad truth I have to tell you instagib fans is that you're beloved gametype is an afterthought. A simple easy to code mutator. Such "afterthoughts" are not going to make UT3 a popular online game. Focus on the core gametypes because that's where success lies. That's what will make or break the game, not how great instagib is. There's a problem with how mutators are handled starting in the server browser and it needs to be fixed!

[FliccC]

I never liked Insta.

I always thought of it as a mutator which amputates good old UT. In insta the movement is almost completely negated and without a fast movement you also reduce UT to simple reaction and aiming. Whereas the extreme dynamics of fast and calm moments of the classic UT is what always attracted me.

However, in Europe iCTF as a gamemode gained pretty much popularity. The community is quite big. I assume and hope there will be the instagib-mutator available for UT3 out of the box. Having iCTF as a seperate gametype in the server browser somehow sounds like complete nonesense to me.

They're building Unreal Tournament with Weapons, Powerups and Movement because they want the stuff to be used in game. If you would like to simplify the whole game with the mutator than go ahead, but because of the drastic changes in the game I would not like to have it in the serverbrowser. It is oldfashioned and it is really something else, it just is not Unreal Tournament.

The possibility to play it should always be there. As well as there should be the possibility to play with lowgrav or quadjump. Even so I still wouldn't get an extra list in the serverbrowser for servers with the quadjump mutator.

[cato]

Mutators are fun for a while, but then people get bored and go to a different thing. An online community based largely around mutators cannot be stable. You may have noticed that many of the most active longstanding members of our community prefer the normal gameplay. You'll also notice that as the game becomes less popular there are more mutator servers to the point where that's all there is anymore. Epic has tried to remedy the problem in the past, but it just hasn't been enough.

The sad truth I have to tell you instagib fans is that you're beloved gametype is an afterthought. A simple easy to code mutator. Such "afterthoughts" are not going to make UT3 a popular online game. Focus on the core gametypes because that's where success lies. That's what will make or break the game, not how great instagib is. There's a problem with how mutators are handled starting in the server browser and it needs to be fixed!

You talk about america, I talk about the whole community. In europe for example instagib becomes bigger and bigger, like onslaught on your side. We have a great community here ... since UT99. So if Epic wants to sell more then ever, they would be well advised to make it default again.
It's no offense, but I think you fear that NW must be tied with Instagib aswell as Onslaught (upcoming Warfare) is doing atm in your country.
I mean why are you that ignorant to think your gametype is the navel of the world? We have all different opinions about gametypes, but the Insta Community accept other gametypes!

Some last words from my personal opinion as a graduated designer: The simple things are mostly better then complicated ones

[Molgan]

I have lost alittle faith in players to choose a map especially in 2k4

O man you don't agree with the publics choices and therefore wanna force them to play the "right"(your) way? Sounds like the Swedish govern TV monopoly in the 70's. ^^ Let people play the game the way they want, the fact is that servers that is "mixing it up" isn't popular among the majority of the community. There are a few successful examples, but there isn't much head room for it. Forcing people to play the "right" way will not change that but more likely make people looking around for other games.

On topic: Keep IG as a mutator. If ctf and vctf can be considered the same game type it would be weird to single out ictf. Instagib are doing well in 2k4 as a mutator.

[Boksha]

Mutators are fun for a while, but then people get bored and go to a different thing. An online community based largely around mutators cannot be stable.

The irony here is that the instagib ladders are by far (and especially in the case of UT I do mean by far) the most popular ones on Clanbase.
Scorn instagib all you want but the community is not exactly unstable.

I agree with the "Keep instagib as a mutator" crowd, but I do think it's big enough to recieve special treatment in the serverbrowser, for example getting a combobox (No instagib/Only instagib/Allow both) instead of a position in the mutator list.

[superwarrio]

yeah, but it could add to having a bit of variation

[evilmrfrank]

Don't take this too seriously but my guess is that they only put the instagib CTF gametype into UT2k4 because the demo didn't support mutators and it was the only way to give demo players that ability.

[Drintion]

Instagib is in UT3, Mike Capps or someone said it word for word in a G4TV interview (At E3'05 I believe "Its not Unreal Tournament without Instagib")

I believe they made instagib ctf it's own gametype for (beta) DEMO USERS

In the beta demo, users were modding their cache files in order to apply "mutators" and the most popular mutator they were applying was: Instagib.

Seeing how popular it was, I guess they decided to let instagib ctf be it's own gametype (they certainly weren't going to allow demo user's to use the mutator function they worked so hard to disable :P) ...allowing demo'ers to get a taste of another UT favorite, encouraging them to buy the game, and allowing retail players to join demo ictf servers without server filter conflict :X

idk... just a guess

[Drintion]

Don't take this too seriously but my guess is that they only put the instagib CTF gametype into UT2k4 because the demo didn't support mutators and it was the only way to give demo players that ability.

wow... you posted just AS I was typing out my response... T_T oh well xD

[MonsOlympus]

O man you don't agree with the publics choices and therefore wanna force them to play the "right"(your) way? Sounds like the Swedish govern TV monopoly in the 70's. ^^ Let people play the game the way they want, the fact is that servers that is "mixing it up" isn't popular among the majority of the community. There are a few successful examples, but there isn't much head room for it. Forcing people to play the "right" way will not change that but more likely make people looking around for other games.

On topic: Keep IG as a mutator. If ctf and vctf can be considered the same game type it would be weird to single out ictf. Instagib are doing well in 2k4 as a mutator.

Lolz some people try to put words in your mouth hey, what I meant by my comment is I get sick of the majority rules mentality and the fact most servers Ive played on play the same maps way too often.

I would rather people (including me, shock horror) to be able to play on random map list rotations as well as voted is all. But hey what do I know, lets just let the pop gamers choose our matches shall we and see how well the game does online.

Everyone wants to be a pro gamer or something these days so they play rankin so they can pwn all day, boring. How about the majority recognize the minority for a change and perhaps try to work together to form some kind of middle ground. I see it the total opposite myself, Im always forced to play the way I dont like whether the choice is there or not, oh but you turn it around and people complain.

It could be worse I could be trying to force people to change their attitude because I think that has more to do with it in a votable system myself. Sure I recognize there are bad maps but there is more then 6 good maps in 2k3/4. But hey this is politics so its serious business not a fun game hey, so what do I know!

[Mort_Q]

Yes, but most of those kill the point of instagib, being that you instantly gib stuff.

But vehicles don't have giblets!?

I'm just saying that one-shot-kills against vehicles doesn't sound very fun, and that either means no vehicles or no one-shot-kills.

I don't like instagib enough to really care how people do it, but since their will be vehicles on some CTF maps, and people do like their iCTF, I figured it was worth discussing.

[MonsOlympus]

Well vehicles with instagib turrets sounds pretty kewl

[cato]

I'm just saying that one-shot-kills against vehicles doesn't sound very fun, and that either means no vehicles or no one-shot-kills.

Only for Info, it's just always a mistake :P
one-shot-kill = wrong
one-hit-kill = right

And ot: vehicles haven't any weapons? I saw something different

[Magwa]

Insta CTF is by far the biggest gametype played on the ladders in UT1 now granted the insta community died somewhat since the release of 2003 but look what they had to work with...If it is made back to how it should be it will again be huge..

[Mort_Q]

And ot: vehicles haven't any weapons? I saw something different

We don't actually know if vehicles will have their normal weapons or enhanced weapons with the instagib mutator (or even is insta will be a mutator or something else in UT3).

[StalwartUK]

Instagib is a mutator and it should stay that way.

[Boksha]

Only for Info, it's just always a mistake :P
one-shot-kill = wrong
one-hit-kill = right

Besides the Manta, perhaps, you don't generally miss vehicles with instant-hit weapons. Basically, all of the vehicles would become riding deathtraps.

[Crotale]

Suddenly, I find myself longing for a UT3 version of iTAM. Sounds reasonable, doesn't it?