ITEM-Spawning

[$TNT$MaeksOne]

Lo all!

i dunno if there is a similar thread right now?! So if just delete this one !

Ok what u think about the ITEM-Spawning in ut2k7? What u think about flexible respawntimes for all items?! U think it could give more fairness for players with lower skill? How much regulary itemspawning influence classic gametypes like 1on1 or ctf and give em a static touch?

[fuegerstef]

Can you please define what you mean by felxible?
You mean random?

[StalwartUK]

I think he means that anyone should be able to change the respawn times of items.

[Boksha]

Good, 'cause randomising spawns is a horrible idea that promotes camping and... well... randomises the game.

[sphinx]

dont think it should be random or more flexible, boksha kinda sums up the bad thing about that.

do think that a maplock should be slightly easier to break, but thats other balance issues

[blackout]

why don't we replace any players by bots, give humans spectator slots and create a game in which any noob has a chance?
(maybe legit aimbots?)

[VoodooPriest]

Good, 'cause randomising spawns is a horrible idea that promotes camping...

That is utter BS. Completely and utterly not thought through. If you randomize item spawntime AND location there is nothing to camp for. The 100 shield or the AMP could spawn at spawnposition x but it could also be just a adrenaline pill.
Actually it would lead to exactly the opposite of camping. Not just the map areas where the most important items spawn but all the map would be the playground. To make it more interesting the announcer could say when an item spawns and where but that is just an idea.
NEXT!!

...and... well... randomises the game.

Which is a good thing. In a recent study people have shown that the most popular sports e.g. football (not the american version) are the ones where the favourite not always wins and chance is as important as skill and tactics. It makes the game unpredictable and leads to different tactical situations.

There is nothing more boring than to watch a UT or Quake 1on1. We all know that.
Random spawns would lead to so much more interesting gameplay but I also know it will never happen because the pro gaymers don't want to give away their stopwatch advantage. Otherwise they might get owned by a good player without one.

[sphinx]

how can a player be good when they cant master the most basic skill of timing?

And yes, timing and placement randomisation might be "fun" on a public (although i dont really think people will feel rewarded for their efforts, because the luck-factor will just raise through the roof)

anyway, quake and ut 1on1 boring to watch? im sorry but... i strongly disagree on q2/q3 1on1's or ut'99 1on1's being boring.

[MonsOlympus]

I still think bots are better at timing than people watching the clock. I can time well without it although Im not always waiting for a pickup like bots do, not that they camp but they always seem to be there as they spawn. Makes them dumb in a way!

[Boksha]

Which is a good thing. In a recent study people have shown that the most popular sports e.g. football (not the american version) are the ones where the favourite not always wins and chance is as important as skill and tactics. It makes the game unpredictable and leads to different tactical situations.

That's an entirely different type of chance. People don't enjoy watching random number generators much. Imagine how popular football would be if every 5 minutes a team could lose or gain 2 or 3 players at random. It'd be idiotic.
The idea that completely random powerups would make 1on1s more interesting to watch is funny, but I can't really take it seriously.

Also, note that I was talking about spawntimes, which is what the threadstarter was talking about.

[VoodooPriest]

That's an entirely different type of chance. People don't enjoy watching random number generators much. Imagine how popular football would be if every 5 minutes a team could lose or gain 2 or 3 players at random. It'd be idiotic.
The idea that completely random powerups would make 1on1s more interesting to watch is funny, but I can't really take it seriously.

Also, note that I was talking about spawntimes, which is what the threadstarter was talking about.

The fact that items spawn randomly does not automatically make the whole game random. Just less item/timing centered and more skill centered.

[Boksha]

The fact that items spawn randomly does not automatically make the whole game random. Just less item/timing centered and more skill centered.

Not really.

[VoodooPriest]

Not really.

r e a l l y.

[sphinx]

not really, more luck-centered.

[fuegerstef]

That is utter BS. Completely and utterly not thought through. If you randomize item spawntime AND location there is nothing to camp for. The 100 shield or the AMP could spawn at spawnposition x but it could also be just a adrenaline pill.
Actually it would lead to exactly the opposite of camping. Not just the map areas where the most important items spawn but all the map would be the playground. To make it more interesting the announcer could say when an item spawns and where but that is just an idea.
NEXT!!



Which is a good thing. In a recent study people have shown that the most popular sports e.g. football (not the american version) are the ones where the favourite not always wins and chance is as important as skill and tactics. It makes the game unpredictable and leads to different tactical situations.

There is nothing more boring than to watch a UT or Quake 1on1. We all know that.
Random spawns would lead to so much more interesting gameplay but I also know it will never happen because the pro gaymers don't want to give away their stopwatch advantage. Otherwise they might get owned by a good player without one.

Anybody remembers earlier posts from him (I am too lazy to search now). Are his other posts of the same level???

[VoodooPriest]

Anybody remembers earlier posts from him (I am too lazy to search now). Are his other posts of the same level???

I remember your posts, they go like this:

"I have a really good argument but I posted it somewhere else, I'm too lazy to search now or post again but anyway you have no clue."

So much about your level. I know it sucks not beeing able to weaken someone elses arguments. And to give you a "level up": Try to klick on peoples names and select "find more posts by.." so you don't have to remember them.
banana

[sphinx]

isnt it ironic that you dont practise what you preach?

[Boksha]

r e a l l y.

On top level, matches are won by making clever use of the map and environment. If item spawns are randomised, that's all gone.
Not to mention a single 100a is basically one frag less for your enemy, and currently some 1on1s are won not just BY a single frag, but WITH a single frag.
Like I said, putting truly random things of that scale in the game is a BAD idea.

The kind of unpredictability you seem to confuse with randomness is already present in the game by people missing or landing essential shots, or dying in certain fights while surviving others.

[fuegerstef]

"I have a really good argument but I posted it somewhere else, I'm too lazy to search now or post again but anyway you have no clue."

I actually posted and and linked to it...

Now I remember, you were the one too stupid to find something in the same thread 10 posts before and then telling me I wouldn't post it.

BTW: The "Find more posts" was actually the way I found my old thread, linked to it... ...but why should I do so in the future if you are too blind and stupid to find it.

proof: http://utforums.epicgames.com/showth...6#post24614196

It's not my fault you cannot use the "Find more posts" button and I have to repat everything I said for people like you. Do it yourself. I had written it down several times... ...you just didn't search for it.

isnt it ironic that you dont practise what you preach?

At least Voodoo tried. He only isn't capable of differening between rule-randomness in a FPS and a soccer game (there is no randomness in the rules in soccer, ffs, learn that, priest, the rules for both teams are equal. Yet you try to use that as argument for random spawn time, jeez).

[Scylla]

Random spawning of items everywhere would suck, you could be stuck with the assault rifle while the other player could be fully stacked and have good weapons.

[Jake-SF]

Well if that is what you call Skill (timing stuff and controlling the map) then it isn't an action shooter its just another boring tactical game with other part for action.

Boksha said some 1on1 match could end up with a single frag being made (or did I took that wrong? Sorry if I did, but I "think" im right.) And he talk like its good that way? Funny, UT + one frag in an entire match doesn't work to me.

Its a SHOOTER, and people get more rewards for knowing how to look at a watch and predict powerup respawn, than actually shooting at his opponent.... this is the cowards' world.

On the other side, I do not agree randomizing powerup would be better. Instead of actually requiring something to get a powerup, it becomes TOTAL luck. Not just a bit of luck, its completely luck now.


My best match are always going to be those with no powerups EXCEPT healing stuff, and the inability to go over 100 health (150 in UT, i think I played that way). It was much more fun, all things oriented on the gun fire and deadly combat, but you could still heal your wounds after a battle. No more tedious advantages 'cause you ran like a cowards toward multiple powerups...

That is all my opinion...

[VoodooPriest]

there is no randomness in the rules in soccer, ffs, learn that, priest, the rules for both teams are equal. Yet you try to use that as argument for random spawn time, jeez.

And if items spawn randomly that would be different rules for both teams?
The rule "items spawn randomly" is the same for both teams.

man you smoke too much

[DeadHead]

If you dont like timing items, go play TAM.

[NeoPhoenixIIM]

I can see where Jake-SF is coming from, though I don't think power-ups should ever be removed. They add another whole dimension to the game play, and can help you rebound from the verge of losing. In actuality the power-ups add the ability for random results in a match. You guys just don't like that the randomness can be dominated by one good opponent, and I agree this can be annoying. Personally I feel the best way to even the playing field is to do the following;

1) Remove the clock from the main HUD; it makes it too easy to know when the next power up will spawn. Just keep the clock on the score board F1 screen.

2) Make a visual animation that shows approximately how much longer till the next spawn. This could be done by having a holographic image of the item that slowly becomes more solid as the spawn time gets closer. Or by having colored lights attached to the base that change hues the closer to spawn the item gets(ex. red/orange/yellow/yellow-green/green). Solid green would indicate a 10 sec warning window prior to spawn. That way everyone has the same info on the next power-up spawn time.

3) If you stand in X proximity to the power up for 5 seconds or more, it won't respawn until you move away.

Only then will there be no reason to say how unfair it is to have power-up to add a bit of randomness.

[fuegerstef]

And if items spawn randomly that would be different rules for both teams?
The rule "items spawn randomly" is the same for both teams.

man you smoke too much

See, here you clearly fail, again.
The randomness/luck in soccer can only result from players' actions* not from the rules themselves.

soccer rules = equal gameplay for both teams without putting luck and randomness into gameplay.
VoodooPriest's miserable excuse of rules = one team will get advantages by randomness/luck through his rules.

Read other's people's posts too please. Then you might realize that you have no clue at all. One of them I think was Boksha who already pointed that out to you and explained your misconception... ...but still you fail too see that.

Shall I quote that for you, PM it to you, link it for you... ...or are you able to find it yourself, what Boksha said directly to you?


*)the same also goes for e-sports, too.

[Gregori]

Randomised player spawn points would be a better idea to avoid spawn-rape.
You would be spawned randomly within a given radius of the the spawn point.

[Jake-SF]

I can see where Jake-SF is coming from, though I don't think power-ups should ever be removed. They add another whole dimension to the game play, and can help you rebound from the verge of losing. In actuality the power-ups add the ability for random results in a match. You guys just don't like that the randomness can be dominated by one good opponent, and I agree this can be annoying. Personally I feel the best way to even the playing field is to do the following;

1) Remove the clock from the main HUD; it makes it too easy to know when the next power up will spawn. Just keep the clock on the score board F1 screen.

2) Make a visual animation that shows approximately how much longer till the next spawn. This could be done by having a holographic image of the item that slowly becomes more solid as the spawn time gets closer. Or by having colored lights attached to the base that change hues the closer to spawn the item gets(ex. red/orange/yellow/yellow-green/green). Solid green would indicate a 10 sec warning window prior to spawn. That way everyone has the same info on the next power-up spawn time.

3) If you stand in X proximity to the power up for 5 seconds or more, it won't respawn until you move away.

Only then will there be no reason to say how unfair it is to have power-up to add a bit of randomness.

I think these ideas are great, and should be considered.

[$TNT$MaeksOne]

1st: sry for my bad english!! yeah some nice ideas right now . I just started the thread cause i thought about it after a ctf match. Item-Timing is still a basic part of the game. But well if u watch some tactics in CTF they mostly depend on the items. Some teams wouldnt attack before getting the Big-Shield...just to give an exampe...and that leads in some cases to predicatable matchsituations. Btw i dont think that random spawing will lead to camping! Why? u wont win a match by just hanging around the Shield :P! Not in a CTF-match and as well not in DM/TDM match. But nevermind.

What u think about the Item-Spawning after 27,5, 55 or 87,5 seconds? May the items spawn more often...or should there be less power-ups within a match...for example: big-shield spawning just after 120 seconds?

[iLL]

Yeah it would curve the power up campers,but too much luck involved imo.

You might play several matches in a row and never get the DD,extra health,or armor while Lucky Lou is jacked up all the time because of the purple haired troll on his desk.

I admit I do get frustrated playing some people who never really throw down unless they are jacked with something.Thats why I like Udamage reward.

I even tend to wait for them at the powerups sometimes.Not so much to beat them to it,moreso to time a shot because you know the greedy lil' bastard will cross in front of you very soon so its just a shot timing thing,not a question of where he will land like a regular battle.

Powerups need to not be so easily accessible,spread out evenly on the map,and even better have some sound triggers when players are near it.
Good maps have this stuff.

I also notice that in CTF and DM players tend to gang up on powerup hoes before fighting each other which is always nice.

Nice idea,but too much random luck for me.

[DrDoomed]

when i read the first thread and he said flexible i automatically thought :

If a noob goes near say a shock rifle wep base that was just picked up on.. cos hes a noob for him it would respawn the shock for him but the pro has to wait for official timing to reclaim the wep

[fuegerstef]

when i read the first thread and he said flexible i automatically thought :

If a noob goes near say a shock rifle wep base that was just picked up on.. cos hes a noob for him it would respawn the shock for him but the pro has to wait for official timing to reclaim the wep

Will a dialogue pop up saying "Are you n00b or pr0??" with two answer-buttons?

[Piglet]

Timing is a skill, but I play a FPS to shoot - not learn the placement of every item and time it as I play.

DM will never have any attraction to me with power up location knowledge and timing the powerups being rather more important than aim and weapon selection.

For fun play TAM is the perfect gametype for me. It's FPS with the shooting being the primary part and map knowledge coming a distant second....and timing being non-existant.

I'll stick to ONS and Conquest in UT2007 until something similar to TAM is written.

[VoodooPriest]

See, here you clearly fail, again.
The randomness/luck in soccer can only result from players' actions* not from the rules themselves.

soccer rules = equal gameplay for both teams without putting luck and randomness into gameplay.
VoodooPriest's miserable excuse of rules = one team will get advantages by randomness/luck through his rules.

Read other's people's posts too please. Then you might realize that you have no clue at all. One of them I think was Boksha who already pointed that out to you and explained your misconception... ...but still you fail too see that.

Shall I quote that for you, PM it to you, link it for you... ...or are you able to find it yourself, what Boksha said directly to you?

*)the same also goes for e-sports, too.

Ok let's deal with your "arguments" (Its funny how you confuse your own bla bla for arguments.) one by one.

First unlike a computer game which develops deterministically (see below) soccer has a built in randomness which we call real life physcis.

An unlimited number of factors decide the behaviour of the ball and players and how the game develops including every single blade of grass which will be different in every second and every little breeze of wind, every peeble of dust on the field and the diameter of the goalpost in nanometers. Every shot changes the airpressure and shape of the ball. These billions of factors are random (in as far as they are not - or can not - be determined by the rules of the game) and change randomly but are the same for both teams to deal with. Complex systems are also sensitive to initial conditions (popularly referred to as the butterfly effect). As a result of this sensitivity, the behavior of such systems sometimes appears to be random, even though the system is deterministic in the sense that it is well defined and contains no random parameters.

Thats why david beckham as hard as he might try can never do the same penalty shot twice. That's why Henry can never do exactly the same trick twice. That's why football is an interesting game and you never know what will happen. The favourites might still own with skill but not always. They need some luck also.

So you can clearly see that randomness/luck in soccer can NOT only result from players' actions but is part of the rules!!!

The rules of physics that is but no one will deny that a soccer game has to comply to the rules of physics as it has to comply to the rules of soccer (which are broken sometimes)

Computer games on the other hand have little such built in randomness. One of them is the different spawn points which will alter the starting conditions of games. You don't object to this ha? The only other factor that stands against deterministic development of the game is of course human player input. (you also mentioned built in randomness like the goliath cannon) But when you remember the old ut2003 botmatch timedemo that has those factors removed every run is exactly like the other.

The second point you try to make is that one team will get an advantage by random item spawns.

Unlike "spawn-near-shield" luck in otherwise nonrandom games (e.g. present day 1on1s) which can give you an advantage you can use to play home and win the game random item spawns will favour you from time to time but not all the time.

Let me tell you a swedish proverb my young friend to make this point clear to you:
"Luck never gives; it only lends."

[The_Deacon]

Perhaps we should let the powerups spawn a few random nanometres away from the normal spawn point?

Or perhaps we should have arena weather conditions affect the flight of projectile weaponry.


The analogy with football is still partly flawed, because despite there being all the described factors (including all the unmentioned ones too of course), these factors do not cause large changes in the game state. The wind does not blow the ball to the opposite end of the field for example. Yes, a player will never take the same penalty twice, but you can almost completely guarantee that under *similar* conditions, the outcome will be close enough to being the same that it doesn't matter. Certain conditions can also be accounted for in some circumstances.

Having an item spawn on the other side of a level is a much larger condition change, and one that is not controllable in any way by the player.

[VoodooPriest]

... but you can almost completely guarantee that under *similar* conditions, the outcome will be close enough to being the same that it doesn't matter....

lol
you clearly have not watched the last world cup

[fuegerstef]

So you can clearly see that randomness/luck in soccer can NOT only result from players' actions but is part of the rules!!![/B]

Oh, someone here messed up randomness in physics with rules.

If there was a rule in soccer that randomly gives a penalty to one team (and this is what a 100 shield randomly given to one player is), i could agree with with you, but unfortunately that rule doesn't exist.
From now on I will talk to you about Basketball where there is no grass on the floor, no wind, etc...

lol
you clearly have not watched the last world cup

What's your point here...??? ..the same goes for a lot of matches in UT (be it ladders or cups, without randomly giving nodes/pickups to one team)

EDIT:
You might have realized that you try to defend your point against a lot of people who have better knowledge.

[VoodooPriest]

Hehe owned

From now on I will talk to you about Basketball where there is no grass on the floor, no wind, etc...

You clearly do not understand the complexity of real life physics. Of course the same thing that applies to football also applies to basketball and any other sport.

[fuegerstef]

BTW; I also think that the randomness in the Goliath's primary fire is more than enough. On Dawn where a Goliath spams down the center node on the other side and vice versa (happens quite often) it is luck that determines a hit.

I don't like that... ...as it could decide a match (unlikely, when the teams know what they are doing, but possible)

[sneaky]

Randomizing spawn timings is the best idea for 2k7 so far!

[senty]

Hello

I just read some of the posts here about randomized item spawn.

Did you ever imagine what would happen to league games in TDM, 1on1 or what ever? The most interesting part of such maches is the fight around the items a fight is based on this, the Teams or the player tries to get the control of the items.

If you would have randomized spawn for such gametypes (TDM 1on1 CTF and others) it will all be luck based, and thats no fun at all. The team with bether spawn will win. Is it what you want ut2k7 to be? a LUCK based game??

in my opinion it is a really bad idea for a game like this.

][asd][ senty

P.S: sry for my english