Would you like an UT-emulating gametype for UT2004? (Poll & Sugg. for Epic included)

[legacy-danseko]

Edit:
PS: This poll is not about changing all of UT2004, that's not
going to happen anyway (even though it might be better for the
game), it's about adding an optional gametype that people can
play when they want (redundant, yes, but neccessary). Get it now?


Since a lot of people weren't too pleased with how UT2003 turned
out, but some loved it the way it was, I think it's time for my
official request for a "real" UT-like gametype for UT2004.

The goal would be to get some of the huge crowd of UT-players
playing UT2004, as well as shutting up all "UT99 whiners" once
and for all. Now how can you resist that?


The basic flaws people have mentioned with UT2003 were:

1) too slow ("slow motion") run and fall-speed (adjusted for long dodges)
2) too big maps in relation to character scale (adjusted for long dodges)
3) too complex movement system for newbies
4) too weak weapons (also making it harder for newbies)
and finally:
5) too fancy/over-detailed graphics in relation to gameplay.


After discussing this subject on INA the last 9-10 months (!), my
simple suggestions to solve these "problems" in an UT-like
gametype are these:

1-3) Remove dodgejumping. But then you also need maps:
Just to get the show started; make 2-3 simple maps with the old
hallway-design of Q3 and UT, adjusted for simple dodging.
Increase gamespeed slightly (10%).

4) Increase the strengths of some weapons (shock combo,
sniper frequency, ++) Then, like in good UT/Q3-maps; Place
weapons to get weapon balance; ie stronger weapons on
exposed locations like you've done with the redeemer.

5) Less "screaming"/fancy graphics? Solve that by simply not
using too much time on designing these few maps. Try going for
the "duller" palette (ref CS, BF1942, UT etc).


My main point is: For an UT99 mod/gametype, you need the
faster movespeed and some weapons to be extra powerful to
get that UT/Q3 arcade-like fragfest feel, but most of all you
need new, smaller maps for shorter dodging.


I personally know I would love and praise Epic for eternity if they did this and did it properly.

[legacy-LockNLoad]

Epic will NOT make a come back to old UT style. As they said, UT2004 is UT2003 with more cool stuff. I never played UT99, but I sure like most of the stuff of UT2003 and I'm pretty sure if Epic change the game for Hardcore UT99 player, they will not be any happier.

[legacy-CellBlock]

...a new game to have something new. I really don't want to play UT forever just because some people don't like UT2k3. I enjoy it, and would like even more novel changes to be put into UT2k4. As I've said before, the games are meant to be different. If Epic was trying to make UT with better graphics, they would have done so already. Clearly, they're trying to make something a bit more creative with their engine.

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by LockNLoad
Epic will NOT make a come back to old UT style. As they said, UT2004 is UT2003 with more cool stuff. I never played UT99, but I sure like most of the stuff of UT2003 and I'm pretty sure if Epic change the game for Hardcore UT99 player, they will not be any happier.

Read the poll m8!

It's not about changing UT2004 to be like UT99, it's about
adding an extra gametype so that those who want the old UT99
gameplay can play that every now and then with upgraded
graphics and new player models.

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by CellBlock
...a new game to have something new. I really don't want to play UT forever just because some people don't like UT2k3. I enjoy it, and would like even more novel changes to be put into UT2k4. As I've said before, the games are meant to be different. If Epic was trying to make UT with better graphics, they would have done so already. Clearly, they're trying to make something a bit more creative with their engine.

Well, UT2003 was different, but it failed miserably. There are still
(one year after release) only half as many playing UT2003 as there
are playing UT99. So it seems not everyone agrees with you that
forcing novelty on all fields - including gameplay - is a good thing.


But back to the point: This was meant as an optional (on the side)
mod that the people who liked UT99 can choose to play when they want.

(Thus stopping the UT99 vs UT200x debate once and for all)

It would also be a new thing in the UT200x series..

[Boksha]

All of your suggestions require new maps (as well as a different approach to mapping). And I don't think the whole UT1 crowd will switch to UT2k4 even if this mod was in, that's just not going to happen. in fact, I strongly doubt even half will make the switch. I mean, they're playing UT1. Why would they want to play "the other UT1"? What has it got to offer UT1 doesn't? (apart from being very well CD-key protected, having slightly better graphics that you actually wanted toned down... and a complete lack of maps)
What I'm going to say has been said before. It's a really lame remark, and you probably won't like to hear it again. However, it is very true. If you want UT1... it's already there: go play it!
I think the extra copies this mod would sell would certainly not be worth the time spent making it.

[legacy-Guyver3]

[stock answer]
go and play UT99/UT1/Unreal Tournament if you want UT99/UT1/Unreal Tournament gameplay. after all its not the updated/dx8 gfx that make a game after all now is it.
[/stock answer]

[legacy-DraZtiK]

Originally posted by Guyver3
[stock answer]
go and play UT99/UT1/Unreal Tournament if you want UT99/UT1/Unreal Tournament gameplay. after all its not the updated/dx8 gfx that make a game after all now is it.
[/stock answer]

Well said!:up:

[Mr. Brownstone]

The production of such a mutator assumes that everyone who plays UT will migrate over to UT2004 without question, which ain’t never gonna happen.

All it would achieve is spread the existing UT-only fanbase across two games, giving lower player numbers for UT and a tiny minority playing UT2004 + Mutator.

If you want UT, play UT. Please.

[legacy-JavaGuy]

I think that if we keep beating this dead and mutilated horse a couple hundred more times, then maybe they'll do it.

[Grim]

Originally posted by Boksha
All of your suggestions require new maps (as well as a different approach to mapping). And I don't think the whole UT1 crowd will switch to UT2k4 even if this mod was in, that's just not going to happen. in fact, I strongly doubt even half will make the switch. I mean, they're playing UT1. Why would they want to play "the other UT1"? What has it got to offer UT1 doesn't? (apart from being very well CD-key protected, having slightly better graphics that you actually wanted toned down... and a complete lack of maps)
What I'm going to say has been said before. It's a really lame remark, and you probably won't like to hear it again. However, it is very true. If you want UT1... it's already there: go play it!
I think the extra copies this mod would sell would certainly not be worth the time spent making it.

I second that comment

[legacy-191]

Originally posted by danseko
Edit:
(even though it might be better for the game),

I stoped there.

[legacy-Tobbe]

If you put in some neutral choices i would vote on the poll.

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by Boksha
All of your suggestions require new maps

Hm! New maps are indeed part of the suggestion..? *shrug*

And I don't think the whole UT1 crowd will switch to UT2k4 even if this mod was in, that's just not going to happen. in fact, I strongly doubt even half will make the switch.

That half is the amount of people playing UT2003 now!

I mean, they're playing UT1. Why would they want to play "the other UT1"? What has it got to offer UT1 doesn't?

Better graphics, TTM, new maps, new models?

What I'm going to say has been said before. It's a really lame remark, and you probably won't like to hear it again. However, it is very true. If you want UT1... it's already there: go play it!

Yes it is indeed a lame (and pointless) remark, so why make it??
UT2003 split up the original UT players in two parts: 1/3 went to
UT2003 and 2/3 stayed with UT.
How beneficial do you think that is for an online game?

I think the extra copies this mod would sell would certainly not be worth the time spent making it.

Then let the UT2003 vs UT flamewars continue and UT2004 die.

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by Guyver3
[stock answer]
go and play UT99/UT1/Unreal Tournament if you want UT99/UT1/Unreal Tournament gameplay. after all its not the updated/dx8 gfx that make a game after all now is it.
[/stock answer]

Wow what a genius you are!
With toned down graphics I didn't mean 1999 level of graphics,
there might be something in between 1999-2003 maybe?

Also, UT2003's brand of "really cool graphics" is all about just
adding more and more polygons, however the polygons just
have separate textures which don't make the whole look credible/good.

So yes, we could definitely loose some of that.

[legacy-Guyver3]

no offence m8, but the poll results speak for themselves.

it doesnt take a genius to see what that means.

take your UT1 gameplay 'issues' and go back to the UT1 forums on these boards and go play UT1, and leave UT200X to the ppl who actually enjoy it for what it is and accepted the changes Epic made

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by DraZtiK
Well said!:up:

Wow! And the INA mafia are complementing each other for their
answers as well! Another standard UT2003 vs UT99 thread is made!
It's so predictable, it's almost funny!

Actually, this wasn't about "UT2003 vs UT99" at all. It was about
meeting the massive amount of dissatisfied customers'
complaints about getting a better gameplay, by making a simple
UT99 mod for UT2004, done.
No more discussion.


But I see now there are so many of you INA mafia guys out there
who not only want UT2003 to have the gameplay you want, but
also want to decide that the biggest part of the UT2003
community shouldn't have access to the game they want at the same time.

:down:

[Magwa]

Originally posted by Boksha
All of your suggestions require new maps (as well as a different approach to mapping). And I don't think the whole UT1 crowd will switch to UT2k4 even if this mod was in, that's just not going to happen. in fact, I strongly doubt even half will make the switch. I mean, they're playing UT1. Why would they want to play "the other UT1"? What has it got to offer UT1 doesn't? (apart from being very well CD-key protected, having slightly better graphics that you actually wanted toned down... and a complete lack of maps)
What I'm going to say has been said before. It's a really lame remark, and you probably won't like to hear it again. However, it is very true. If you want UT1... it's already there: go play it!
I think the extra copies this mod would sell would certainly not be worth the time spent making it.

you need to re read the post it is not a stand alone mod it is a gametype included in ut2004 ..you don,t have to play it but it would be there to play if you so desired it is a good idea and mabye some peeps would like it ,it would be no different than having invasion (gametype)......

[Magwa]

Originally posted by Guyver3
no offence m8, but the poll results speak for themselves.

it doesnt take a genius to see what that means.

take your UT1 gameplay 'issues' and go back to the UT1 forums on these boards and go play UT1, and leave UT200X to the ppl who actually enjoy it for what it is and accepted the changes Epic made

ok we will leave you and your two friends alone ...bye..go play .......now.......happy fraggin..

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by Guyver3
no offence m8, but the poll results speak for themselves.

I really don't care about the poll, that was just to draw some
flamers in here to get bumpage on this thread.

And again no offense m8, but the only people who have posted
(and probably voted) in this thread so far are people who have
no idea about what a "gametype" is in Unreal (there are
obviously also very many other things they are ignorant about).

Seems the only thing they do know, is they usually vote "no" to anything UT99.

take your UT1 gameplay 'issues' and go back to the UT1 forums on these boards and go play UT1, and leave UT200X to the ppl who actually enjoy it

*sigh*
Listen..
I've been playing and enjoying UT2003 since it came out, I've
been promoting it to everyone and trying to get people to play it
from day #1.
Countering people's whines and complaints all the time, I know
exactly what people dislike about it.
I even made a small mutator that tried out some gameplay changes, just to make UT2003 come alive and to get over this bad
split which is bad for both the UT200x games and UT99.

I am actually one of the dedicated people who are running a
couple of UT2003 servers, and leading an UT2003 clan.

If UT2004 is another disappointment down the same line as
UT2003, it's over for me. I will return to UT, and I won't give a sh't
about UT2003. I will shut down the servers, and many will do the
same as me.

Face it, without enthusiasts, "your" precious UT200x will be dead.

[legacy-Guyver3]

ahhh yes the obligitory mindless flame

well played

good game

current poll states 66% are telling you to shove your UT1 gameplay where the sun dont wanna shine.

yes hmmmm 2 friends or 22??

wp

gg

gs

kthnxbye

[Magwa]

guys it is just a poll come on lets be civil there are plenty of maps that would work either ported over maps or the smaller narrower maps that shipped with the game .It would not take long to find maps to play or dl it would not take much to implement this gametype just a option to remove new moves and aderinaline it could all be options geeze lighten up people lets try to work together,,,,,for the common good of the game .

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by Guyver3
ahhh yes the obligitory mindless flame

well played

good game

current poll states 66% are telling you to shove your UT1 gameplay where the sun dont wanna shine.

yes hmmmm 2 friends or 22??

wp

gg

gs

kthnxbye

Rite.
That was not a flame.

When you're off your crack high, try reading the last part of the
post, how much effort I've put into trying to make UT2003
succeed. Without people like me, no online UT2003 play for you.

[Boksha]

Originally posted by danseko
Hm! New maps are indeed part of the suggestion..? *shrug*

Yep. Who's going to make them? If Epic is to make them, you'll end up with a totally new game. In that case, your argument about "It's optional and won't replace UT2k3" is bollox, because it WOULD take Epic a lot of time, and they would have made a complete extra game. (which you apparently expect to come free with another developed and expensive game, UT2k4)

Originally posted by danseko
That half is the amount of people playing UT2003 now!

Yes... online. And certainly NOT half of the people that BOUGHT UT2k3 and will buy UT2k4. Besides, many of the people playing UT1 never bought it. I've seen clans where almost every member admitted they had a pirated copy. I doubt all those people will happily go to a store and pay for a game they already have.

Originally posted by danseko
Better graphics, TTM, new maps, new models?

Again, if you want new maps, you'd have to make new maps first. If it's made to be optional, there won't be any maps for it. (or at least not many)
Seeing as how maps are the #1 thing that makes a game, and UT1 has loads and loads of good maps (many of which are user-made and took a lot of time before they were released) already, I doubt people would flock to UT2k4/UT1-mode if there's actually LESS maps in there.
Also, you said you wanted simpler graphics... so no better graphics there.

Originally posted by danseko
Yes it is indeed a lame (and pointless) remark, so why make it??

It's lame, so why make it? I think I made that clear. BECAUSE IT'S TRUE. It's just silly to say "This game is good, this game is bad. Let's make the bad game EXACTLY like the good game!". There just isn't a point in that. People will stick with what they have (mostly because they don't have to pay money for that! I doubt people will pay money for playing the game they already own)
And it's CERTAINLY not a pointless remark. Apparently you still haven't got it crammed into your skull, so it's not pointless until you have.

Originally posted by danseko
UT2003 split up the original UT players in two parts: 1/3 went to
UT2003 and 2/3 stayed with UT.
How beneficial do you think that is for an online game?

...not very. That's why I think splitting it AGAIN won't do any good. Think of what will happen if this brilliant idea of yours is implemented: half of the UT1 players will go to UT2k4UT1mode, half of them stay behind. Most UT2k3 players and a couple of new players will go to original UT2k4. Now you have people split out over THREE communities instead of 2. Happy now?

Originally posted by danseko
Then let the UT2003 vs UT flamewars continue and UT2004 die.

Right. What exactly is the point you're trying to make? I was saying "This won't sell many extra copies", and your reply is "Then UT2k4 will die". That doesn't make sense. So you're saying UT2k4 will die in either case? Um... actually, I think UT2k4 will live without your suggestions.

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by Magwa
guys it is just a poll come on lets be civil there are plenty of maps that would work either ported over maps or the smaller narrower maps that shipped with the game .It would not take long to find maps to play or dl it would not take much to implement this gametype just a option to remove new moves and aderinaline it could all be options geeze lighten up people lets try to work together,,,,,for the common good of the game .

Nice support Magwa, thanks!

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by Mr. Brownstone
The production of such a mutator assumes that everyone who plays UT will migrate over to UT2004 without question, which ain’t never gonna happen.

It happened for Quake2, Quake3, Baldur's Gate II, NeverWinter,
Command and Conquer and basically every other major sequel.

The only thing that's mindblowing here, is that Epic managed to
make a sequel (UT2003) that failed to bring over the past fans!

(And in answer to your expected reply: Yes, sure, I guess UT fans
are different from all the other online game fans out there.. )

All it would achieve is spread the existing UT-only fanbase across two games, giving lower player numbers for UT and a tiny minority playing UT2004 + Mutator.

That's what happened when UT2003 was released!
And FYI, UT2003 is stuck with the small and useless part of that split/spread.

[Boksha]

Also...

1. There is a TTM for UT1.
2. Making another game along with UT2k4 will mean there will not be just UT vs UT2k3 flamewars, but also UT2k4UT1mode vs UT flamewars AND UT2k4UT1mode vs UT2k4 flamewars... on top of the UT2k3 vs UT2k4 flamewars we certainly will get!

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by 191

Edit:
(even though it might be better for the game),

I stoped there.

You stoped there??

I've never stoped anywhere before! Please, tell me how!!


(Sorry, but when you post this kind of trash, expect to get the same
kind of ignorant trash back in your face)

[Boksha]

Originally posted by danseko
Nice support Magwa, thanks!

Wow! And the UT1 mafia are complementing each other for their
answers as well! Another standard UT2003 vs UT99 thread is made!
It's so predictable, it's almost funny!

[legacy-191]

Originally posted by danseko
I stoped there.

You stoped there??

I've never stoped anywhere before! Please, tell me how!!



(Sorry, but when you post this kind of trash, expect to get the same
kind of ignorant trash back in your face) [/B]

please no i can't take this. Your reply is so smart and uber 1337 that i am without words.

Next time, think for more then 1 second if you want to make a "smart" reply, kthx.

[legacy-Guyver3]

really don't care about the poll, that was just to draw some
flamers in here to get bumpage on this thread.

ahhh so you've resorted to trolling then?

And again no offense m8, but the only people who have posted
(and probably voted) in this thread so far are people who have
no idea about what a "gametype" is in Unreal (there are
obviously also very many other things they are ignorant about).

easy answer for some1 losing an uphill struggle.

e been playing and enjoying UT2003 since it came out, I've
been promoting it to everyone and trying to get people to play it
from day #1.
Countering people's whines and complaints all the time, I know
exactly what people dislike about it.
I even made a small mutator that tried out some gameplay changes, just to make UT2003 come alive and to get over this bad
split which is bad for both the UT200x games and UT99.

I am actually one of the dedicated people who are running a
couple of UT2003 servers, and leading an UT2003 clan.

ahhh so all this makes your 'opinions' more valid..... i see.

Guyver1:
started playing online August 1999
first game - Unreal1
became a member of the wireplay Unreal1 community.

moved over to UT1 in december 1999, formed [DOA] in January 2000 with an old Unreal1 buddie. played in ALL the major leagues/cups that were around at the time (wireplay, barrysworld, Games Inferno, Clanbase, Jolt etc etc) we were div2 quality as we didnt have the time/money or rescources back then to rent our own server and so couldnt put in the hours to practice.

I became a Games Inferno Admin during the sur-5-vor league and for the CTF league, also did some admin for the original wireplay UT1 leagues.

Moved to UT2003 as soon as the demo was released, all of [DOA] felt it was a breath of fresh air in a stagnant environment. we havent touched UT1 since.

I am now clan leader of [DOA] for over 3 yrs, and am now the UT2003/2004 Community Liaison for Wireplay running 9 servers, 5 forums and the website and ftp section.

Currently in div1 for all 3 clanbase opencups.

so i suppose your gonna tell me now that i have no clue about what makes 'unreal' gameplay??

theres not many ppl who can match the length of time i have spent in the unreal series of games, and the ones who have been around that long probably are open minded enough that they;ve migrated thru all 3 games and accepted that all 3 games are very different.

your 'experience' means jack m8, it is not some kind of leverage tool you can use to somehow justify your 'opinion'.

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by Boksha
Also...

1. There is a TTM for UT1.
2. Making another game along with UT2k4 will mean there will not be just UT vs UT2k3 flamewars, but also UT2k4UT1mode vs UT flamewars AND UT2k4UT1mode vs UT2k4 flamewars... on top of the UT2k3 vs UT2k4 flamewars we certainly will get!

Stay calm.
If UT2004 "does a UT2003" - meaning, it completely misses it
target audience (flops), there won't be any discussion here at all.

This is not a threat or anything, but for me and many other Unreal
enthusiasts, we'll leave the UT200x alone with it's microscopic
player base and most probably move on to with DoomIII or Halflife 2.

Both of these are rock solid games with massive player bases,
and graphics about 3 years ahead of UT200x. That's the truth, and you all know it.


I'm not here argumenting for gameplay options because I like to
get pointless flame flung in my face from ignorant fourteen year-
olds, it's because if Epic don't make UT2004 good, it's dead.

[Boksha]

Originally posted by danseko
Stay calm.

I am. Just poking you around. And saying that the idea that this mod will stop any flamewar is weird.

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by Boksha
Wow! And the UT1 mafia are complementing each other for their
answers as well! Another standard UT2003 vs UT99 thread is made!
It's so predictable, it's almost funny!

You don't think I posted that on purpose?
Here's what I wrote yesterday replying to a post that said this
forum was all about arguing:

Well, that is true indeed! But note that 99% of all flamewars in
this forum go like this:

1) a post: "UT2003 should be changed/modified" or
"I don't like UT2003 because.." (implying that UT2003/4 should be changed)
2) about twenty seconds later, the INA mafia have written 10
flaming replies
3) the flaming replies compliment each other with stuff like
"well said", "best post ever" or "owned"
4) people who agree with the first poster show up with angry
posts of support and argumentation
5) the INA mafia go back to point 2)

Now check this thread. Pretty precise or what?

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by Boksha
I am. Just poking you around. And saying that the idea that this mod will stop any flamewar is weird.

Any kind of handreach from Epic towards the ~300,000 monthly
unique UT players who tried and disliked UT2003 (I've not yet met
one UT player who didn't try UT2003), would be a good thing.

When they keep ignoring this need, well, it's Epic's loss.

[Magwa]

actully guys this is getting out of hand ,i am going to sell popcorn and extra seats in my office so all the bros from the res can come and watch Forum wars lol i might even make a movie ......people you really need to chill a bit have some fun and just try to make this game not only good for yourselves but good for anyone who would play it another gametype option that does not in any way change the gameplay you like would hurt nothing!!!!!!! it would not even effect you.....

the flaming in here is all in fun (on my part as i have not one thing against anyone here no matter what they call me or make fun of me ...it is all good but like i said in another post we are like cancer eating ourselves up from the inside out ....is it too much to ask that we all love Ut in all its forms and we try to help each other instead of acting like i or danseko have the plauge??????

i know now how Custer Felt as he rode over the hill.....

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by 191
please no i can't take this. Your reply is so smart and uber 1337 that i am without words.

Next time, think for more then 1 second if you want to make a "smart" reply, kthx.

Do you ever read a post directed at you?

I made fun of your speling because you posted a stupid
and ignorant post right before: "I stoped reading your post after
one line, huh-huh".


(I don't give a sh't if people misspell words. I do it myself)

[Boksha]

Originally posted by danseko
Now check this thread. Pretty precise or what?

Very! Also, very reversible, and very appliable (spelling?) to you and the rest of the world! Hey, 99% of all discussions go like this, like it or not. If you want a sensible discussion, perhaps a seperate room would be a better option. And that's no sure way either, since most people (including me, quite often ) are rather thick-headed and won't give in even if they have nothing to lose if they do.

Anyway I'm still waiting for a sensible reply to my last serious post.

[Kr4zed]

I won't bother reading the entire thread, but I miss an option in the poll -- "No UT1 mod in UT2004 and we don't need more UT vs. UT2003 threads".

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by Guyver3
ahhh so you've resorted to trolling then?

Another concept you've misunderstood.
Trolling is when you go into a thread/forum where you've got
nothing constructive to add, and post negative remarks just to stir
someone up.

The difference is that I posted something in an attempt to create
something that could be good, while you just posted because you
don't even want to try.

You can find the real troll at a mirror near you.

easy answer for some1 losing an uphill struggle.

Oh! I'm going to remember that one for UT2004's floppage.
Why btw is it so important for you to work against something that
really won't do you any harm?

Guyver1:
started playing online August 1999
first game - Unreal1
became a member of the wireplay Unreal1 community.
[bla bla]
so i suppose your gonna tell me now that i have no clue about what makes 'unreal' gameplay??

Well, obviously the twice as big community who left UT2003
returning to UT would say "hell yes", but the only point I was
trying to make was that I am an UT2003 fan.

I am not trying to hurt the game, or whine at it, I want more
players playing it.

theres not many ppl who can match the length of time i have spent in the unreal series of games, and the ones who have been around that long probably are open minded enough that they;ve migrated thru all 3 games and accepted that all 3 games are very different.

True: There are not many people who agree with you. I know that
first hand having spent months tried to convince heaps of UT fans
to give UT2003 another chance (as you've hopefully done too).