Spam, Hitscan, and the Great Balancing Act

[legacy-AL777]

Random Discussion VIII

Yep, they're back.

We can argue all we want about how cheap the hoverboards will be or how stupidly dark the player models are, but there is really one true core aspect of any UT that pretty much blows any other part of the game out of the water in terms of signifigance. That aspect, my friends, is pure, face-to-face combat. Time to discuss it.

Probably the most major influence on combat is, obviously, the capabilities and style of the weapons used. As you already know, weapons in UT fall under three main categories: projectiles, hitscan, and arguably lockdown.

UT2004 is hitscan dominant. Done.

So, now that we have the totally needless prelude out of the way, time for the question.

How is the balance of various weapon classes and combat styles in UT2004 flawed, and what should be done in terms of movement, map design, and the weapons themselves in order to better balance them in UT2007?

I've heard some rather ingenius ideas on this forum before, and hopefully they resurface. Anyway, have fun (as always, I'll save my opinions til later)...

[RoadKillGrill]

Hitscan domination is more caused by the maps design then by the game itself., The spam is quite powerful, in most cases able to deal more per second then the hitscan.

[Boksha]

Originally Posted by RoadKillGrill

Hitscan domination is more caused by the maps design then by the game itself., The spam is quite powerful, in most cases able to deal more per second then the hitscan.

Yes, hitscan domination IS mostly a matter of mapdesign, and in UT2k4 at point blank range the close range weapons (both hitscan and projectile; the minigun is an example of a close range hitscan weapon) are already more powerful in the hands of a skilled player than the long range weapons.
However, with the current movement system it's nearly impossible to build a map where close range weapons are useful more often than the long range ones (i.e. close range fights happen more than long range ones); add to that the fact that for midskilled players accurate single-shot hitscan weapons (the long range weapons) are much easier to get good with and UT2k4's ability to get outside of close-range range (i.e. the range where close range weapons are better than long range ones) fairly easily with a single well-timed move, you end up with a game where hitscan weapons are incredibly dominant.
I think removing the dodgejump is a good start in getting rid of the hitscan domination; sure it'll make it harder to get close to your enemies, but similarly it will make it much harder to get away as well. The big difference is that not having dodgejumps invites mappers to build more winding maps (i.e. maps with less open areas and less long hallways) because players no longer need to be able to dodgejump constantly without ever hitting a wall. The more windy a map is the more close range fights will pop up.

Similarly, IMO it's a big mistake if Epic makes the translocator work more like in UT2k3 and less like in UT. UT2k4 held a middle ground in that aspect, but it was still closer to UT2k3 than UT. Having a translocator that works efficiently only in long straight hallways, and in winding close range areas gives only a small speed gain and runs out of ammo quickly, only invites CTF mappers to build oversized long/straight maps that concentrate primarily on single-shot hitscan skill rather than projectile prediction and close range fights.
Limiting translocator ammo IMO is not the way to go in preventing translocator abuse. What the hell is translocator abuse anyway? The translocator's purpose is to let someone move very quickly and relatively safe while he's not fighting; IMO that's the way it should be. The translocator never should've had a limit. It didn't in UT and that game worked just fine.

[legacy-shadow12]

one thing: less hitscan, more time to evade, but, hitscan already has a major aim error.

[Boksha]

Originally Posted by shadow12

one thing: less hitscan, more time to evade, but, hitscan already has a major aim error.

Major aim-error?
Accurate single-shot hitscan weapons do NOT have ANY form of aim error. They work just as well at close range (if not better) as at long range. That's the main problem to begin with; hitscan weapons work equally well at any range while projectile weapons really ONLY work at close range and all too quickly become less usefull than hitscan weapons when the distance to the enemy increases.

btw, I included the rant about the translocator, but that obviously only applies to CTF; in ONS it's a different problem alltogether because the maps HAVE to be big in order to let the vehicles move about freely. Solution: make projectile weapons much more powerful against vehicles and include areas where you simply cannot use vehicles and have to rely on close range skill.

[legacy-shadow12]

major aim error for the assault rifle. Everything else has no aim error, of course, you could always put one in there, if you have enough coding experience.

[legacy-zilch]

Originally Posted by Boksha

Similarly, IMO it's a big mistake if Epic makes the translocator work more like in UT2k3 and less like in UT. UT2k4 held a middle ground in that aspect, but it was still closer to UT2k3 than UT. Having a translocator that works efficiently only in long straight hallways, and in winding close range areas gives only a small speed gain and runs out of ammo quickly, only invites CTF mappers to build oversized long/straight maps that concentrate primarily on single-shot hitscan skill rather than projectile prediction and close range fights.
Limiting translocator ammo IMO is not the way to go in preventing translocator abuse. What the hell is translocator abuse anyway? The translocator's purpose is to let someone move very quickly and relatively safe while he's not fighting; IMO that's the way it should be. The translocator never should've had a limit. It didn't in UT and that game worked just fine.

To continue the rant re: the translocator: I agree with you. Even with the increased charges and recharge rate of UT2k4, you could still run out of translocator charges catching up to a flag carrier on certain maps which defeats the entire purpose and effect the trans. If anything, trans charges will be in even *greater* demand in UT2k7 if mapping styles do indeed change in the direction of less open and more labrythine designs, as they should.

There should be no limit on the trans in UT2k7. At the very least the recharge rate must be increased. The only useful purpose for a trans limit is be to prevent 'telefrag abuse': e.g. the endless spamming of the trans at an opponent to compensate for a lack of skill in pulling off a telefrag the first time (or second time...).

UT2k4 did at least make telefragging a slightly less prevalent and luck based element of the game.

[legacy-Xaero*nz]

Originally Posted by shadow12

major aim error for the assault rifle.

Its supposed to be like that of course.. its not an 'error' just a 'deviation'. if it was 100% accurate it would be far too powerful for a starting weapon. Although the assault rige is entirely to ***** anyway, im glad theyre bringing back the enforcers.

[da ghost]

Originally Posted by shadow12

Everything else has no aim error, of course, you could always put one in there, if you have enough coding experience.

modding weapons doesn't count in this discussion, we're talking about the unmodded weapons...also the minigun lacks precision.

anyways, the only flawed thing about combat in ut2k4 is that sometimes the lightning gun/rocketlauncher splash has lockdown. I think that lockdown (in all weapons) should be taken out because it makes the clumsy movement in the UT series feel even more clumsy. It's alright to have weapons 'push' the players (shock, biorifle), but 'pulling' them makes the movement suck.

[3leggedFreak]

Originally Posted by Boksha

I think removing the dodgejump is a good start in getting rid of the hitscan domination; sure it'll make it harder to get close to your enemies, but similarly it will make it much harder to get away as well. The big difference is that not having dodgejumps invites mappers to build more winding maps (i.e. maps with less open areas and less long hallways) because players no longer need to be able to dodgejump constantly without ever hitting a wall. The more windy a map is the more close range fights will pop up.

Agreed, and I mostly use dodge jumps for transportation anyway. In a fight I tend to use simple dodge and an occational wall dodge so the lack of dodgejumps don't change the pace of fighting much. Only thing I fear is that the maps will turn into something claustrophobic like Q4, but I feel pretty safe since the unreal mappers have shown that they know how to make fun maps.

XyX mentioned in another thread the simple solution on how to make hit scan less dominating in 2k4; make hit scan inflict less damage. Only problem with that is that weapons generally is pretty weak in 2k4 so killing would become a long and tedious process.. Don't know how the weapon balance is in 2k7, but if the shock primary stay as powerful as in 2k4 and the combo is just as spammy we will continue to see an armada of shock abusers. And since the standing combo seems to be a winner, removing dodge jumps, or removing any movement actually, won't change that.