[gp's] Impressions & Suggestions on changes for competitive play

[girl poison]

Hi all, it's girl poison (gp), long time forum member since the beginning of my GOW days. As some of you know I've recently gotten into playing this series competitively, and Epic has been trying (and doing a great job of) applying changes to the game to make it more balanced. I'll be using this thread to add/update what I feel are good changes and suggestions that might help create a more balanced game.


I. Keep the "NEXT" timer for KOTH - it's a great addition!

The "NEXT" timer that starts at the 10 second countdown of the previous capture point helps take away the element of surprise and luck that this gametype brings. Prior to this feature it was possible to figure out where the next capture point would pop up through the process of speculation and elimination. However, it was impossible to be 100% accurate unless there were only a few capture point spawns on the map that hadn't been hit already.


II. Remove "man up rule" for Execution/Warzone or add a feature to private matches to disable this function.

When you break down these game types and strip them of their creative name, you expose the objective. Execution/Warzone would be called "Elimination" because the goal of these game types is to eliminate the enemy team. Man up rule encourages camping of teams who are at an advantage with "man up" and forces the other team to make reckless plays, looking to at least even out the score so that the round can result in a stalemate. Man up forces the wrong team to push.

This concept isn't good for competitive play (or online play, in my opinion) because teams will sometimes- not all the time, but sometimes- shoot for a single kill, then set up on the map to stop any plays or pushes. The team who has man advantage should be able to work around the map to eliminate the remaining opponents and team who has less players shouldn't be penalized with a loss for the round when their enemies didn't even complete the objective.

Man up rule only needs to be removed for these game types, it is fine for TDM because the objective for this game type is to get the most kills. It's essentially a point system in reverse, "first to 20" (19 in 4v4s). Whoever has the most kills before that time will win, and the team with the most lives left obviously has the most kills.


III. Add more spawn points to TDM to make this gametype playable competitively.

There are two major problems with the TDM game type. The first problem is that it's extremely easy to set up and spawn kill a particular spawn- the game doesn't always flip spawns immediately, even if there are enemies in your spawn. Some maps have very open spawns where there is little to no cover and only one or two ways to move out of spawn. Compare maps with good spawn set ups, like Trenches and Thrashball, to maps with bad spawn set ups, like Hotel and Mercy. Creating additional spawn points will help to resolve this issue. I personally feel there should be four spawn points (one on every corner of the map if possible, like a diamond shape if you're looking at an overhead view of the map)- I think that KOTH spawn system would have too many spawns for TDM.

The other problem is that spawn protection lasts too long for some maps like Checkout and Mercy, where you can make it to the middle of the map with spawn protection. Especially if additional spawns were added to TDM, the spawn protection timer should be adjusted according to map size. Smaller maps should allow less time for spawn protection (Checkout, Mercy - 3-4 seconds) and larger maps should grant more spawn protection so players can get out of spawn (Thrashball, Trenches, Gridlock - 5-6 seconds).


IV. Change the 15 second spawn cycle to a consistent five second wait between a death and spawning.

The 15 second spawn cycle adds a lot of luck to the mix for any respawn game type. Sometimes you get lucky and die (which isn't really lucky at all, but anyway) right toward the end of the spawn cycle, getting a 1-2 second wait before you spawn, and sometimes you die right at the beginning, having to wait a full 15 seconds before being able to play again. Making the wait between spawns exactly the same for everyone takes away that element of luck when it comes to death and spawning.


Thanks for taking the time to read my thread Epic & forums, please feel free to discuss, make suggestions and deliver your constructive criticism, that is what this thread is for. All that I ask is that you keep your posts civil and avoid bashing and flaming at all costs, thanks. :)

[InFlamesWeTrust]

For once I actually agree with all of GP points.
Good Job :D

[oO PSYCHOTiC Oo]

Spot on -agreed

[the_suicide_fox]

I agree with 1 and 2. 3 is iffy, I don't think making the number of spawns lower or higher would make a difference other than how long the game lasts. As for 4, I like the 15 second spawn timer mainly because you spawn with your team, but you are right in that it can be random. Maybe make it a set 10 seconds, but spawn everyone together. So then if you and I were on a team, I get killed and start the 10 second timer then you die at 3 seconds left, we spawn together and the next death resets the 10 second clock. IDK that's a toughie. Faster, definitive spawns would be great, but spawning with your team is also great.

[Thrashballer]

I. I'm starting to like the whole "NEXT" feature in KOTH. Not a bad addition at all.

II. I completely agree on the removal of the man up rule for Execution/Warzone.

III. The spawing system in TDM isn't bad at all. However, the spawn rotation should vary a lot more often than what it is currently.

IV. Agreed on making the spawn cycle consistent.

[I Love U Jesus]

I don't think the man-up rule should have ever existed to be perfectly honest with you. I see even TDM as an "Elimination" match type with respawns. Man-up rule completely changes the flow of a round or match for anyone who has any idea of what they're doing in the game in the negative way that you've described.

As for adding more spawns to TDM, you're probably quite right that something to that effect needs to happen. All of the shipped maps at least allow any organized team to spawn trap the enemy team worse than any other game I've ever played. Drydock is the perfect example of this, with its bottleneck spawns that allow players to camp literally right in front of the enemy spawn, and they will continue to spawn there.

Yes, spawn times should be the same for everyone, not random.

[H2KxDEVIOUSx787]

I agree.. Yeah! What she said..

[Mr shWo]

agreed on all points

[Thrashballer]

As for adding more spawns to TDM, you're probably quite right that something to that effect needs to happen. All of the shipped maps at least allow any organized team to spawn trap the enemy team worse than any other game I've ever played. Drydock is the perfect example of this, with its bottleneck spawns that allow players to camp literally right in front of the enemy spawn, and they will continue to spawn there.

If you played the Boom Snipes (TDM) or One Shot, One Kill (TDM) weekend events, they demonstrated spawn killing perfectly on Drydock. It would just seem odd for a team to respawn on a power weapon spawn in a non-objective playlist.

[ll ALEX76 ll]

I wish just one thing, Gears 2 on dedicated servers.
Flame suit on :p

[Vevion]

Hi, my names Vevion (vev) and I've been a uber long forum member since g1 came to play and been a competitive Gears player since Gears 2.

I agree with everything you just said, GP. <3

[Peruvian]

totally agree, one thing id like to see though is the removal of the ink grenade as of now its kinda glitchy. and the slightest amount of lag can produce greatly varying effects.

[sl00p]

Keep 15 seconds spawn...
As for KoTH the update fixed a lot of problems. KoTH in MLG matches was partially based on luck.

[I Love U Jesus]

Buuuuuummp.

[iGoDz II DraGon]

I approve of this Thread.

[Doc Holliday v2]

Good thoughts. Agree with I-- Next Hill loc is very nice and adds new dimension to KOTH Strats.

Disagree with #II-- Manup is fine. It's a double edge sword. Teams may use a 1 kill/postup strat. but still, why is that all bad? It still puts the priority on a team to press and create confrontation to even it or gain man up. With Ex & WZ been one and done modes. This is a good rule. Keep it. Stale mates for days doesnt solve it. Man up keeps matches moving.

Disagree with #III-- Spawn system is just fine. The random flip is working. And Spawn protection is doing what its supposed to do. Prevent easy Spawn trapping. Its a design effect. Put onus on teams to spawn trap with some intelligence.

I somewhat agree with #IV-- I hate the 15 sec respawn timer. Its a joke. Should be a revolving 7 sec timer. 7 seconds has proven to be near perfect and I think is worth a test. Should keep action moving much faster. At the very least it should be a clock adjust for private matches.

[the_suicide_fox]

Just thought for #4, if they added a little icon, maybe in the corner, that could 'beep' when players spawn that might help too.

[Pulletlamer]

I agree on all except adding/changing the TDM spawns. They are not very good right now, but adding more spawn points would not be very fair. Sometimes you might get lucky and spawn behind enemies etc which would be really unfair.

Other than that I agree with everything. Especially I think the spawn idea (5 second spawn timer) you just suggested is very good.

[SgtReed24]

God forbid the team that's losing should have to make a play to win the round. It most certainly does add to the competitive aspect. You don't know how many times me and the people I was playing with have been sitting there a man or two down with the other team holding down a spot. The rush you get when you make a great push and tie it up for a stalemate or clutch the win from the jaws of defeat is just amazing! I love it.
Edit: Forgot to mention that without the man up rule, we wouldn't have even tried to even it up or win. We would have camped and camped for a stalemate. It makes you HAVE to do something. Keeps the game moving.


It makes the team that's losing actually do something other than hide for a stalemate when they've been outplayed that round.

As for everything else, I agree.

I just think removing the man up rule is just a way to give the team that makes a mistake another way out.

[the rattle5nake]

I agree with points 2 to 4 but totally disagree with point 1. The next indicator is not a good addition to KOTH, the randomness of the ring was what added to this game mode. From both a winning or losing point sometimes a correct guess could mean the difference to winning or losing whereas the new indicator has taken the guess away.

Rather than help a losing team out it actually aids a team dominating more as they can move to the next ring en masse following the indicator. Previously there would be uncertainty as to the next ring, and I know you can roughly work out the cycle but it was never fool proof.

I hope this is just a test and the indicator is removed soon.

Unlike to think I can speak from a solid knowledge of KOTH having played over 300 ranked games.

[GiddyupHorsie]

Agree with every point you made.

[War Pigs]

Girls a boss, she know's what's up. Good ideas.

[Darkhound64]

I agree with those points. ^^

[zchy]

What about updating(trading off)? I have yet to see any mention of this. Its when 2 players kill each other at the same time. I have yet to see any mention about this. From my understanding, it was added in gears 2 to compensate for the laggy connections, so if the connection made a player miss out on the kill, it would still shoot afer they died(and kill them most of the time.) This feature needs to be removed in gears 3 altogether. The connection is no longer a factor, for the most part, it is an equal playing field. Why still have is when it only hinders a players performance? I strongly believe it should be 100% removed.

[I Love U Jesus]

Charmander char char!

[TAO Devil]

I agree with all points especially #3.

All respawn gametypes need Dynamic Spawning rather than static spawning.

[FreakkoRock]

I think everyone here is with GP ;)

[Hannah]

i completely agree, just like everybody has so far!! Though I am not sure on the spawning one, perhaps lower the waiter from 15 seconds to 10? i don't really mind , but you where spot on about how the change in KOTH is a good one

[girl poison]

Thanks everyone for your input, I really appreciate it.


What about updating(trading off)? I have yet to see any mention of this. Its when 2 players kill each other at the same time. I have yet to see any mention about this. From my understanding, it was added in gears 2 to compensate for the laggy connections, so if the connection made a player miss out on the kill, it would still shoot afer they died(and kill them most of the time.) This feature needs to be removed in gears 3 altogether. The connection is no longer a factor, for the most part, it is an equal playing field. Why still have is when it only hinders a players performance? I strongly believe it should be 100% removed.

Trading is annoying, especially when you're the one that "gets updated", but it makes sense. Trading kills is based on CSHD, or client side hit detection. It's where your game processes that you input the trigger command to fire a shot, even if those directions don't get to the host or server before the person you're fighting. Prior to CSHD, if two people shot at the same time, accurately and in gib range, the person with the better connection in general or better connection to the host would get the kill. For online play, CSHD is only helpful to the player base, because connection is still- and always will be- an issue. Doesn't stop it from being annoying though- thank God it doesn't happen to me too often.

[yalnif]

I completely agree, especially with your point about the spawn timer.

[StLouisAssassin]

I agree with all, except I think the respawn timer should be somewhere more in the 8-10 second range.

Also, I think for KotH, Overtime needs to go. It turns a hard fought back-and-forth game into a total crap shoot. Instead, time the rounds and whoever has more points at the end gets the round/match. Sucks that two teams may be having an awesome match, but because of a lucky spawn or one good digger or nade, you can get 3 times as many points while a team respawns as you were getting earlier in the game, potentially giving you a win. The addition to KotH with the next label was a good step. If they fix the spawning system, time the spawns so people dont get lucky with a 1 second respawned or screwed with a 14 second respawn, and get rid of OT...KotH will be perfect.

[Randoms]

Thanks everyone for your input, I really appreciate it.



Trading is annoying, especially when you're the one that "gets updated", but it makes sense. Trading kills is based on CSHD, or client side hit detection. It's where your game processes that you input the trigger command to fire a shot, even if those directions don't get to the host or server before the person you're fighting. Prior to CSHD, if two people shot at the same time, accurately and in gib range, the person with the better connection in general or better connection to the host would get the kill. For online play, CSHD is only helpful to the player base, because connection is still- and always will be- an issue. Doesn't stop it from being annoying though- thank God it doesn't happen to me too often.
The most annoying **** ever? Getting updated by host..LIKEWUT??..
Yes it can happen and says that it's not all connection.

[girl poison]

Also, I think for KotH, Overtime needs to go.

I've heard mention from someone at Epic that this might come out. I don't like it- there have been times, prior to the NEXT indicator, that by the time we get to the next spawn, fight for it, and finally get the cap, you get 15-20 seconds worth of points- and that's only if your enemies don't spawn instantly and close by to break the circle. For GB's, you play 1 round at 210 points to win. Imagine how annoying this gets.


The most annoying **** ever? Getting updated by host..LIKEWUT??..
Yes it can happen and says that it's not all connection.

Yeah it's happened to me before too, moreso in GoW2 for me, probably because host is a lot easier to identify. I've traded a lot of kills on LAN at NJ Halo this past month.. which is kind of funny to say the least.

[Randoms]

Oh yeah who won? Infinity probably? I didn't even bother watching any of that because my team didn't even go.

The LAN I went to had just as much updates if not more than online also. Joke :/

[bison187]

Very well laid out girl poison (nice interview on GoWNation btw). I don't think it could be laid out any better and more articulated than how you just did. Since Guardian no longer exists, KOTH has been my new go-to game mode and I've noticed a lot of flaws as you've pointed out. The respawn system is terrible. In a perfect world the points should always be geared toward the center from wherever the respawn points are located. The entire goal is to always move toward a center at all times, if you die and respawn the other team shouldn't respawn parallel to you, but complete opposite of the map in the same direction.

ie.

Respawn points top left, middle left, bottom left, top right, middle right, bottom right. If you respawn top left they should respawn bottom right, not bottom left like in Mercy for instance. It kind of makes sense how they did that when you look at the map design. Most of them aren't geared toward any kind of "middle" ground of the map. Trenches I think is probably the best simple because you have a capture point at the top near mortar, right below at digger, top of the hill, and bottom middle in the trenches. All of them nearly center when looking down on the map and require difference strategies and difficulties to capture and maintain the hill. Hotel is another close one except for the two outer ring points where distance, open ground, lack of cover, and spawn give one team the advantage over the other.

Completely agree with the respawn times as well. More and more it seems I'm hitting the 15 second marker and that's just too long for games that are time dependent. It should be cut in half to say the least and no longer in waves. Waves are successful in other games and came about during the PC era when teams were 8v8 or more and where spawning as a single person at a time could lead to near instant death the minute the other team moved up and had the numbers advantage. It doesn't feel right in 4v4 or 5v5's where people tend to run off in multiple directions after spawn regardless because there are so many different routes to the objective.

On a side note I think TDM should have instant respawns as well or near instant to keep the pace high and further prevent spawn camping.

Just my 2 pennies on the dime.

[Losthursday]

1. At first I wasn't sure about the "Next" Icon. I like it now. I think it keeps teammates from needlessly dying trying to cap 5 seconds of a ring and then unluckily getting a 15 second spawn cycle meaning we basically gave up the next hill.

2. Don't really care about the "Man-Up" rule I've been in matches where it has benefited me and ones where it hasn't. So I feel it's fine really. I think having that option for private games is a reasonable idea and one that those that play competitively would appreciate. I don't play competitively so it doesn't really change the way I play.

3. I do think the spawns in TDM are sometimes a pain. I think adding more spawns just creates more issues. For example you bring up the point that even if enemies are in a spawn you can at times spawn in that same area only to be squeezed in there and be killed. This problem could still exist even with more spawns. I think the solution is have some sort of detection where if it knows enemies are in the area then you don't spawn there. I've used this a little in KOTH specially in Checkout during the first ring. I help the team cap the ring then I hop into electronics so it keeps the enemy team from spawning there. Maybe this could work in TDM.

4. This point I agree with completely. The sheer luck factor in the spawn cycles is frustrating. Particularly in KOTH and CTL. If you get the long spawn timer in close games and tack on a far spawn it's game over.

[Doc Holliday v2]

I really think the Spawning issue is something that is part of what Gears is and it's something that even serious players do not understand.

For one thing. GOW was never designed originally, to be a "respawn" type game. It was a tactical, one and done style that profiles team work and stresses thought based strategy.

The addition of TDM quite simply goes against the original mold that Gears really is. Although, it does seem to work with the twist that the development team has made. I still feel like making respawns dynamic would completely ruin the mode entirely. Quite frankly. It would turn it into a chaotic and mindless tdm mode that "ehem" the OTHER guys shooters are in the same modes. The system as is, I believe is still the best fit for this hybrid to the original design.

I would like to see it stay the way it is. Preserve Gears in its original form as much as possible. Please dont turn it into the mindless bs that others games have turned theirs into.

[girl poison]

Bringing this back to the front page, it needs more comments and support!

[girl poison]

A lil' ba-bump.

[ExponentJustin]

agreed completely!

[Rukia Kuchiki]

i agree with everything but im undecided by number 3.

[girl poison]

Needs more feedback. :)

[girl poison]

Bringing this thread back to the top, let's see what more people have to say. :)

[Vevion]

da funk is this....

[Falloutt]

100% agreed with everything, hope Epic would agree too :O

[CJ 1825]

While I fully agree with points one and two, points three and four I say no to. And here's why:

All gametypes in Gears require teamwork. Teammates need to work together to complete the objective of the gametype they're in. And most of the time, this requires players to stick together. My point here is, if teammates are spawning all over the map, or spawning one at a time, it makes it hard to work as a team. With one spawn point per team, and respawns being stacked every 15 seconds, players can respawn together and try again to complete their objective.

Now you might say "but multiple spawns would allow for much easier flanks and such." But if a team is working together, this shouldnt be a problem anyway. Just run around the map from the spawn, and coordinate timing with the team to take out the enemy.

Now, I'm not at all saying that it doesnt get annoying to have to wait 15 seconds after a death, especially more than once in a row, but I understand the reasoning behind it.

Also, as a note about your idea to change spawn protection time based on the map: While I think that could be one way to almost fix any problems with spawn protection, I would imagine it's not nearly as easy to do as to say. If they could pull it off successfully and correctly, I'd go with it. But I dont see it happening.

[Nonoru]

1/I disagree. I mean it's not that hard to check where the ring appears.(And you always had the option to check the Tac-com) No matter your skill level you shouldn't be helped by the game in order to know where will be the next hill BEFORE it spawns. If you're a competitive player surely you know how to use the left bumper ?
Do we really need a pat on the shoulder with an indicator panel in order to find a ring ? No.

2/I agree with this. I've always been against this rule since it has been announced. It promotes camping and provoke stalemates.

3/Adding some spawns would be nice. But again, in order for this to work you have to take in consideration the issue that people face when playing KOTH;
People spawning right next/before/behind you at times.

4/I've always been saying that this was an issue. But here what would be another problem is that when you die, it would be easily predictable to know when a player is going to spawn and IF rule 3/ isn't added it would only results in spawn trapping/camping.If 3/ isn't done then no i'm against 4/.Both added could work(at least a temporary playlist could be worth a try).

[Primopratsy]

I agree almost in this thread entirety. I just disagree with Point 1, is just not right to have an actual indicator of where to go next, since the game loses its sense of surprise of where will the next ring be. Just like being able to hear/talk to dead teammates, being able to do so completely loses the game's sense of surprise. Making a PARTY chat is an option you have, but you don't HAVE to listen to your dead teammates if you choose not to. Having the freedom whether to hear your dead teammates or not is just priceless. Not to mention being able to hear/talk to your friends (if you are playing private matches) that are also dead, in the dead chat room like how we had in the previous gears games will be just as priceless. Here is the link for that thread http://forums.epicgames.com/threads/825533-Private-Match-Audio-between-rounds-and-in-the-quot-dead-zone-quot

and About point 2. Here is the link for a thread specifically just about that http://forums.epicgames.com/threads/824097-Remove-the-new-quot-Man-up-rule-quot-from-Execution-Warzone-Epic-is-fixing-it!! Please read and share your support for it.

[Und3rdoggy]

good stuff gp but i think the respawn timer should be 7-10 seconds 5 is just to fast but epic listen to this woman

[girl poison]

Thanks to whatever mod moved this thread to this section. :)

[@Strife]

It makes the team that's losing actually do something other than hide for a stalemate when they've been outplayed that round.

The object of execution is to eliminate the enemy team. NOT kill one then run back. If you can't kill the entire team then you don't deserve to win. Am I right?

[C R I S ii S]

Agree with OP, would like to see how 5 second spawns would would but I see it might need a possible slight increase. Something I would love to test out though.

[girl poison]

Agree with OP, would like to see how 5 second spawns would would but I see it might need a possible slight increase. Something I would love to test out though.

A lot of people are saying this and I have to agree, but the 5 second countdown would begin on the timer, which like 2-3 seconds after you're spectating your killer before the spawn timer starts. Does that sound a little better or should the timer still be increased?

[C R I S ii S]

So really it would be around 7-8 seconds. Thats what I was thinking. 5 just seems like maps could turn into complete chaos. Maybe a slight increase but you really never know until its been tested.

[xBrian]

I agree with your points gp. With regard to #4 I think 10 seconds would be better kinda like Halo.

[iDuskk]

I agree for the most part, but I personally think Wave Spawning is nessissary for Gears, but I would like to see them cut down on the spawn times a bit, like maybe instead of having a 5, 10, 15 second respawn, just make the respawn set to every 5 seconds.

[Ins1deTheF1re]

I agree with all of these points. Luckily, we got an option to remove Man Up in private matches with TU3 :D

[LmfaoKaiThx]

Solid points, Gp.

[GifteD iZ NicE]

I'm not sure if tdm needs more respawns. I feel like Epic doesn't think it does, so I think we should think of ways to improve the game with the rulesets we already have in place.

I think 5 is too fast. Shoot for somewhere between 8-10 seconds. I'm not even sure you can get into your ghost cam with a 5 sec respawn time. I think tdm needs weapons to respawn even faster, and I also think people in the dbno position needs more health, so they can maybe crawl away, things of that nature. So it takes more teamwork to kill a downed person, not some guy blindfiring his shotgun from 25 feet away.

Koth just needs just certain hills taken away, the easy to camp/hard to break hills, and it'll be a great gametype. I like the respawn system in the game.

[nVi Clide]

I like the next indicator in KOTH, but I don't like how the respawn system ignores where the next will be. I have spawned on the next hill even with the indicator there. I think that needs to be changed.