Fusion Reactor - SP level

[Spyderbird]

Hi all.

Ok, so I've finally put an alpha version of my SP level on ModDB & Filefront. Links here:
http://www.filefront.com/17278551/Underground.zip/

Any feedback - bad or good - would be most appreciated before I begin to polish it - it's very unpolished at the minute - I just want game play feedback from people before I start tarting it up. :)

Thanks in advance!!

[Spyderbird]

Just got the email from ModDB that they have approved it.
Correct link is here:
http://www.moddb.com/downloads/underground-fusion-reactor

[JUGGERNUT]

I'll check it out later, how long is the gameplay in your opinion?

[Spyderbird]

A brilliant - thainks!!

Depends on how you play it tbh. If you deal with AI very quickly - 20 to 30 mins. If you're like me and a single battle can take you ages, 40 mins?

[darksin]

Played it, finally copter comes and game over, the aircrew in the cut scene doesn't move, anyway no bugs met, some invisible cover spot, overall no tough battle, level detail is simple, need more light at some spot, but level structure design is good, similar to some FPS gameplay level, you push buttons to opend doors, and up and down, kill some locusts. So not very long, good work...

[Spyderbird]

ah mate - thanks so much for that. Really good of you to take the time to play it. All your points are spot on and I hope to deal with them all as I go through my polishing phase.

[Lambent Veteran]

*NOTE: Please don't take any of the criticism offensively*

Ok, first thing it is kind of unorganized, a lot of debug in the objectives, I suggest using objective text in the actual SP levels if it goes right with your level. How come there is no combat? You really need more cover links, most of the walls I'm just rolling into.You need A LOT of light editing, test your level before releasing it to make sure the quality assurance of it is perfect, why you need light editing: there is some really bright spots, but then there is really dark spots. Also, the chopper just goes in a 90 degree angle, it comes toward you then just goes straight down, it doesn't have the rotors spinning or the sound of a chopper. I'd give a 2 and a half out of 5, it would of been a lot worse if this was a Full Release. I don't really mean to be rude to give that much criticize, that's just the things I want to see improved for a Full Release, I will definitely make sure I download the Full Release when you post it. It's a nice basic level, good job. What I did that I thought was a good idea, was that before you came out with an actual release, make a test level, indoor and outdoor levels, and ask in the original post to leave feedback regarding if your ready for an actual level or you need to practice, I'm working on my first actual level now, and it's expecting to be released as of October 15th, 2010 as a beta. Check my thread out, and play my level in the editor:
http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=741441

Thanks,
Silent Veteran

[darksin]

Some level design reminds me UT99, those old happy times,lol... Anyway, i can see the author put a lot of tricks and make the whole gameplay works fine, so overall plays nice, maybe we played too many custom maps so nothing special of this one, but nou doubt you can make so much more better maps without any problem based on this full work, good luck...

[Spyderbird]

Hi guys. Just wanted to say... please don't feel in any way inhibited by pointing out errors, problems or just plain things that you didn't like about my level. Whilst praise is great for my ego, critisism will help make my level better - which is the most important thing for me! So Silent Veteren - I can only thank you for taking the time to play it and critique it.

Many of the things that you guys are saying are things that I will be doing during the polish phase (getting that chopper to animate & sorting out lighting issues for example). So I'm kind of happy that people are pointing those things out as opposed to 'carp game play' issues.

My main concern is what darksin has commented - "maybe we played too many custom maps so nothing special of this one". I agree. The one thing that I've been very worried about is that the level lacks a 'wow' factor. Part of this is because I haven't spent anywhere near enough time on the visuals (and I have to point out that all geometry is made by myself using BSP's as opposing to using GOW buildings etc). I'm hoping that once I add good lighting and more cool objects etc - the level will look at least a little better.

I'm also hoping to have minor animations & cut scenes - again, to help the mood.

But I don't think these will give me that bit of 'clever invention' that I think the level is missing. I'm happy that I have done the basic things right - placement of cover Versus placement of enemy AI etc (well, at least for the most part - I do need to add cover etc to everything). But the game play lacks that spark.....

I'll keep going and see if I can do better as I learn more..

Again - a massive thank you to you chaps. It's great that people are happy to give their own free time to play the level and then offer feedback.. :)

[Lambent Veteran]

Hi guys. Just wanted to say... please don't feel in any way inhibited by pointing out errors, problems or just plain things that you didn't like about my level. Whilst praise is great for my ego, critisism will help make my level better - which is the most important thing for me! So Silent Veteren - I can only thank you for taking the time to play it and critique it.

Your welcome Spyderbird, I hope to see your 2nd Beta Release or a Full Release!

[JUGGERNUT]

I got to the part where the raven arrived, then died during that cutscene.


Overall, I think it's amazing how big the map is, you were right about how long it would take, I also hope to see future improvements from someone as talented as you.

[Serenius]

I didn't finish the map this playthrough, but here are some notes on what I noticed going through. I know it's alpha, so I won't focus on visuals (much) or sound. I'll do another playthrough soon for more specific feedback, but here's what I noticed upon initial playthrough (beginning to the room after setting the first core - I think).

This isn't meant to be overly negative, I'm just posting things I noticed and possible ways to design around them if you desire. Most mappers can't seem to get thorough feedback here, which I find frustrating as hell, so hopefully it's appreciated from one mapper to another. :D

This seems like a really large project, so I applaud your ambition and efforts, and hope you have a solid modular parts plan for your visual pass to avoid burnout while decorating.

Incoming wall of text.

The Good:

From what I played, there seems to be an overall re-usage (or at least a connection) of playable space, with rooms that have multiple levels, and I'm guessing later on, get tracked through again.
Functioning checkpoints (thank you!)
Some puzzle action (press the switch, something happens) - seems to be a high level puzzle that's not too difficult to figure out.
I could get a sense of the high-level goal of the level from the beginning, which is a good thing (battle through reactor, do something with the cores, get out).


Improvement Areas:

Fighting arenas - There's a lot of good stuff in Lee Perry's Multiplayer Map Theory (http://utforums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=583689) that applies to single player arenas as well.
What I noticed more often than not was only 1 kind of cover available, which was standing cover. The more variations in cover, the better. Add more mid-height cover throughout your arenas, mixed in with the standing cover. Mid-height cover is a "better" cover for flat arenas, as the player and enemies can pop out in more places than just the sides. Standing cover should be used for areas that need protection against an elevated threat, or just to mix it up a bit. In addition, this will give you better AI pathing from the covernodes, so it's a win-win situation from a design and technical perspective.
Overall arena design needs more depth. There should always be a flanking opportunity to gain an advantage or half of the Gears game play formula is missing. Popping out from behind a wall and taking pot shots is more shooting gallery, and less cover-based tactical shooter. Also, the more circular you can make an arena, the better. There should be kill zones (open space aka no man's land) the form the center of the arena with cover all around it, wide open firing lanes full of mid and full height cover, and tons of areas to flank and surprise the enemy. James Gaynor (http://fullbright.blogspot.com/2009/02/basics-of-effective-fps-encounter.html) wrote a really comprehensive guide on this, so I'll let him say the rest.
Immediately after opening one of the doors, a Locust grunt spawned, melee'd me, and I died before I could react. Unavoidable or seemingly unavoidable death detracts from fun. I should be able to see a threat coming and at least have a second or two to react instead of getting clobbered and having to reload.
I noticed a few enemies spawned in the upper decks of those first octagonal rooms after I made it to the ground floor, and I had to go back up to kill them or let them take potshots at me since they had superior cover. Please don't make me do this. Unless there's a viable explanation as to why the enemies are there (aka they kick a door down after I kill their buddies downstairs) then the player can get confused as to why there are bad guys in area they JUST cleared. Plus arbitrary backtracking is just annoying. Backtracking using a bounce (http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Bounce_(level_design)) is a-ok if it somehow makes sense, like how Half Life and Bioshock do it. Having to go back to take out enemies in a room that I just cleared out just seems like unnecessary play time padding.
No immediate cover when entering a new room as enemies spawn. One thing you'll notice in every Gears campaign level is that there is almost always an area to take cover when entering a room. This encourages the player to move forward into the room instead of backpedaling to the door for cover. I had to flee back the way I came to find safety when enemies spawned a lot, which got irritating quickly. If I hit a trigger and enemies spawn, I should be able to find a safe spot to scan my surroundings within 1-2 seconds of hearing them announce their presence.
Matinee cameras - I got stuck in the Matinee sequence a few times after pressing a button caused a Matinee sequence fired. I'd recommend either switching to full on cutscene mode that ends on its own, or remove them entirely since most of these triggered events can unfold using continuity design (http://agamesdesignblog.com/2009/03/01/continuity-level-design/). You can use visual clues to help guide the player's eye to see the event. I don't need a camera to point me in the right direction to know that a huge door to my right is opening after I push a button. The sound effect and seeing the door moving will tell me all I need to know. :)
UI issues & POIs - I couldn't see any labels on POIs at all, so it was a little confusing anytime one of these popped up for seemingly common background objects. Also, the FOV used was a little extreme. I'd recommend backing off to a less aggressive FOV angle, like 45-60 at the most. Also, I couldn't see anything on my UI (even a targeting reticle when zooming) until the first fight. I think a lot of the UI issues are because you didn't use the "SP_" prefix for your maps and the sub-levels. If you do this, the game will know to load all the proper single player scripts, which will probably fix the UI issues.
Checkpoint bug - enemies not fully re-spawning and InterpActors not resetting after a checkpoint. Make sure none of your AI factories or InterpActors are in the persistent level. This way they reset properly every time you reload a checkpoint. Exceptions can be made for anything that should be persistent of course, such as a swaying lamp that will always be swaying no matter what point in the level the player is in.
Soft cover and seemingly soft cover - anything that isn't a fully solid material shouldn't be cover. If I can see through it or shoot through it, it ruins the effect of cover to occlude vision and stop my bullets unless the opening is very small and concentrated. For example, the room at the bottom of the long elevator with the fences as cover, I'd recommend some form of concrete between the floor and the fence. In the big tank room after you lower the first "core" that has 3 levels, I'd get rid of the fence between the player and the grunt behind it. The only way to attack him is to open myself up to attack from 3 other Locusts, and if I ignore him, he kills me while trying to kill the other 3. That's the point I got stuck on, frustrated and stopped because I couldn't turn on god mode (which is just as bad if a player gets to that point). Also trying to shoot through a chain-link fence and seeing bullets collide with it ruins the immersion a bit. At the least, I'd set collision to "Block all but weapons" on these.
Pickups - please provide some ammo and/or more varied weapon pick ups. Some players (like me) hate using the Hammerburst, so it's annoying when the only option is to run out of ammo or pick up a Hammerburst off a dead Locust. Stick a few smaller ammo crates in places that are easily spotted along the main path, and stash a few larger ones that are off the beaten path so explorers are rewarded, and you'll be golden here.
Lighting - only visual thing I'll mention since I noticed a few instances of this. An area should LOOK dark, not BE dark. Dark spots enemies can hide in are annoying since players rely heavily on their eyes to react to the game world. If it's a game like Splinter Cell that relies on using the dark and spotting enemies out of it as an intended game play mechanic, it's forgivable. This is Gears of War though. I should only not be able to see a bad guy if it's because a chest high wall is in the way. :)

[JUGGERNUT]

Yeah, I didn't have much time to post improvements, and it looks like Serenius has got pretty much everything down from the looks of that post. Anyways, I think I'll go through some solutions that might help you with gameflow...



Improvement Areas:

Immediately after opening one of the doors, a Locust grunt spawned, melee'd me, and I died before I could react. Unavoidable or seemingly unavoidable death detracts from fun. I should be able to see a threat coming and at least have a second or two to react instead of getting clobbered and having to reload.

My solution to this would be to have the locust emerge from an e-hole, or show the locust hiding behind the door, giving the player plenty of warning

I noticed a few enemies spawned in the upper decks of those first octagonal rooms after I made it to the ground floor, and I had to go back up to kill them or let them take potshots at me since they had superior cover. Please don't make me do this. Unless there's a viable explanation as to why the enemies are there (aka they kick a door down after I kill their buddies downstairs) then the player can get confused as to why there are bad guys in area they JUST cleared. Plus arbitrary backtracking is just annoying. Backtracking using a bounce (http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Bounce_(level_design)) is a-ok if it somehow makes sense, like how Half Life and Bioshock do it. Having to go back to take out enemies in a room that I just cleared out just seems like unnecessary play time padding.

True, this was quite confusing, and I lost my sense of direction and thought I was backtracking for a bit when I was running away from them. Either don't spawn them, or have jack appear to "rip that door", then have locust burst out of a room that was locked before, or appear from e-holes

Matinee cameras - I got stuck in the Matinee sequence a few times after pressing a button caused a Matinee sequence fired. I'd recommend either switching to full on cutscene mode that ends on its own, or remove them entirely since most of these triggered events can unfold using continuity design (http://agamesdesignblog.com/2009/03/01/continuity-level-design/). You can use visual clues to help guide the player's eye to see the event. I don't need a camera to point me in the right direction to know that a huge door to my right is opening after I push a button. The sound effect and seeing the door moving will tell me all I need to know. :)

Yeah, make sure for any cutscenes you always enable god-mode for the players. Also take a look through sp_embry_p and see how they got the players attention, so you would press Q to see the chopper and a description saying "Chopper", and you'll notice they only forced the player to look somewhere when there was enemies coming from far away, and god-mode was still enabled.. do not forget about god-mode

Pickups - please provide some ammo and/or more varied weapon pick ups. Some players (like me) hate using the Hammerburst, so it's annoying when the only option is to run out of ammo or pick up a Hammerburst off a dead Locust. Stick a few smaller ammo crates in places that are easily spotted along the main path, and stash a few larger ones that are off the beaten path so explorers are rewarded, and you'll be golden here.

Yes, weapon pickups are a must, give the player new ways to kill enemies

Lighting - only visual thing I'll mention since I noticed a few instances of this. An area should LOOK dark, not BE dark. Dark spots enemies can hide in are annoying since players rely heavily on their eyes to react to the game world. If it's a game like Splinter Cell that relies on using the dark and spotting enemies out of it as an intended game play mechanic, it's forgivable. This is Gears of War though. I should only not be able to see a bad guy if it's because a chest high wall is in the way. :)

Yeah, add side wall lights, it really helps..... although my maps are always too dark for some people no matter what I do..... so take a look through the sp_factoryinterior_p level and see how they did that lighting




The only thing that needs immediate attention is more cover, and serenius has pretty much "covered" that, so hopefully all goes well.

[Spyderbird]

Guys. Seriously. I cannot thank you enough for this feedback. This is more than I could possibly have asked for and I am just so greatful.

I'm literally going line by line on the feedback and trying to find ways of fixing all of those problems. I think most are easily fixable, others will take a bit more thought and time.

Thanks again!!

[Spyderbird]

Hi all!

I'm happy to say that I have today uploaded an update for this SP level to ModDB.

I haven't managed to fix all the problems that people found, but I think I've made a big chunk of changes that hopefully makes it play better.

I'm going to continue developing the level and try and work my way through all the feedback as I think it's all brilliant.

Thanks again for giving of your time etc!!

Link here:
http://www.moddb.com/downloads/underground1

Thanks! :D

[Spyderbird]

URGENT NOTICE
There are several game play triggers that are not firing in this version of the level.

They work fine in the editor but not in the game.

Apologies!

I will fix and upload a working version ASAP.
:(

[darksin]

OK, Waiting for update.always play in game......

[JUGGERNUT]

That shouldn't stop you from playing the map darksin, you can always get into the editor:


Quick fix to get a shortcut to the editor on your desktop:

R-click drag the Gears of War shortcut icon on your desktop
When you release that choose the "Create Shortcuts here" option
R-click on the new shortcut and select properties
Add a space and then "editor" to the end of the Target line
Rename the shortcut to help you remember it will start the editor instead of the game.

Enjoy!