Is a total ban on engine comparisons wise?

[rd1]

I can see that it's good not to have many constant flamewars regarding various engines.

That said, I think it's a shame that someone can't come here and ask a question like:

"I'm currently using Torque and looking at alternatives, can anyone here can outline the reasons I might consider UDK?".

Well, they can ask, but we can't actually discuss it. Having such discussions always quickly terminated will look bad to those who are searching for comparisons between engines. People will come here seeking such comparisons, and without them, they'll only have the pro-Torque or pro-Unity or pro-whatever comparisons they find in the respective forums for those engines.

I'd suggest allowing comparisons as long as they are clearly genuinely new and informative. This would a allow a small number of threads that include the important information, and from then on links to those can be posted to quickly finish other repeat threads or those heading towards flames.

[sueds]

you've made a really good point. I support that but is mostly up to the mods

[johanz]

Maybe a dedicated category for discussing UDK vs *engine* threads?

[Apathy]

Most people can't seem to have an intelligent discussion on anything without being biased and insulting people.

[sueds]

Most people can't seem to have an intelligent discussion on anything without being biased and insulting people.

it's true. Even without insulting most fan boy just pollute forum instead of informing people.

[Sir_Brizz]

If you need to be convinced to not use Torque... ;)

[rd1]

Some people genuinely don't know whether UDK is better than Torque. Granted, those people probably won't be doing much with either for a while. But, isn't this a reasonable place to ask that question?

Or are we unfriendly and don't even give an answer to that?

[mikepurvis]

UDK for the win.

Seriously. It's ready to go for multi-player out of the box, it supports the most recent 3D modeling tools with supported exporting/importing tools. There is a large community actively involved in developing for it.

[Unreal McCoy]

It probably wasn't the engine comparison that bugged the moderator but rather it was more likely to have been the dramatic tone of the thread that had a slight hint of "Let's bash GarageGames because they dissed our beloved UDK!"

[Brexer]

I dont see a reason to compare engines at all, its quite simple infact.

1) Each engine is different (we know this)
2) You are going to use the engine that fits your needs, not what other tells you (logical).

Discussing "this" engine has "this" better then "this" and "that", is nothing other then ranting each engine against each other, because it can tell you 100%, each engine has something better then the other one has and visa/versa...

So what are you discussing infact ?

Nothing, you are using this engine or not, its your choice, comparing it with other engines are a simple waste of space, its up to YOU to find the engine of your choice, not us to research it for you.



"I'm currently using Torque and looking at alternatives, can anyone here can outline the reasons I might consider UDK?".


How ?, we dont know what your planning to do, why should WE tell you, and not YOU take some action yourself and check it out.

It doesnt matter if we tell you the sky is blue, if you dont look yourself, you cant know for sure.

[johanz]

I dont see a reason to compare engines at all, its quite simple infact.
1) Each engine is different (we know this)
2) You are going to use the engine that fits your needs, not what other tells you (logical).
Discussing "this" engine has "this" better then "this" and "that", is nothing other then ranting each engine against each other, because it can tell you 100%, each engine has something better then the other one has and visa/versa...
So what are you discussing infact ?
Nothing, you are using this engine or not, its your choice, comparing it with other engines are a simple waste of space, its up to YOU to find the engine of your choice, not us to research it for you.
How ?, we dont know what your planning to do, why should WE tell you, and not YOU take some action yourself and check it out.
It doesnt matter if we tell you the sky is blue, if you dont look yourself, you cant know for sure.
You compare them so you know which one will fit you more.

[Brexer]

You compare them so you know which one will fit you more.

Take a notice to "YOU", not US.

I dont see why you need to compare it on a forum, we dont care what you need it for (sounds rude, i know), we dont need it for what you need it for.

(Example)
So what does it have to do with us that you think the renderer in something is better then the renderer in something else.

We dont need it, we need what we need it for, not what you need it for, and while you think its a bad renderer, we might need exactly that kind of renderer for our project.
(Example end)

So in the end, it will be users bashing each others, some swearing loyalty to one engine, some to other engines, and it will fill forum with trash that messes up search function (so a search finds like 10000 posts not even remotely on topic for what you need).

[johanz]

This is why we can't have nice things.

[jeffro11]

Exactly. A valid question would be like:

How many pointlights can I have on view at once, and does UE3 use forward rendering like "other engine"?

It's a fair question.

[Brexer]

This is why we can't have nice things.

What nice things are you referring too ?

If you want to discuss engine vs engine, there is other forums on the internet you know :rolleyes:

Of course, im not speaking on Epic's behalf, but i do see why they dont want it, and i just agree on it.

Ive seen engine forum's filled with trash post about engine vs engine.

If you can use the engine, why ask if its better then some other engine ? why not just use it ?.

I just dont see it..;)


Exactly. A valid question would be like:

How many pointlights can I have on view at once, and does UE3 use forward rendering like "other engine"?

It's a fair question.

As you said, thats not engine vs engine thread, so of course those are valid, and that has never been a problem to ask that, infact, people have asked stuff like that and gotten answers without problems.

[Advoc]

If we can't discuss it here, no biggie. There are lots of places to look and here is a great place to start:

http://www.devmaster.net/engines/ Let the flame wars start over there. We can keep this place for the unreal engine specs. If you're looking at an engine to see what it does well you'll be able to make your own comparisons.

I would like to do a project and I have a few ideas in mind. UDK. idTech4 (when it goes open source), sauerbraten, Panda 3d, Ogre? Lots of potential candidates, all with strengths and weaknesses. Some have complete solutions (UDK) some have no tools,... some have licensing agreements where you have to pay royalties (UDK) some do not... It all depends on what you want to be able to do and I think it's smart of the devs to cordon off the debates about which engine is better for X or Y and just let this forum be the place to discuss how/what to do with UDK... because that's why we are here right? UDK. If people want to argue or debate about other engines i'm sure there are forums, or IRC chat in the case of the website I linked to, specifically for that.

my $0.02

[zlittell]

you really shouldn't ask which engine is better on a specific engine forum... i mean the answer with obviously be UDK 98% of the time. Same as if you asked on the torque forum, they would reply torque 98% of the time. Same with unity, etc.

[Azzedinistan]

Compare the games which have been made with Torque Engine and the games which have been made with UE3/UDK and you'll know which is the best engine ! and for sure it's the UE3/UDK

[Blade[UG]]

Azzedinistan, try being fair to some degree.

[Henrik]

If you guys want to say "another engine has x, how does UDK compare?" there is nothing wrong with that and I would say Epic would not care. What they are trying to avoid is specific product flamewars, while keeping the forum on topic - which is discussion of UDK. So if you don't want this thread closed too I suggest not discussing other engines by name - simple as that.

[immortius]

Compare the games which have been made with Torque Engine and the games which have been made with UE3/UDK and you'll know which is the best engine ! and for sure it's the UE3/UDK

^ This is why we can't have these threads. :mad:

[BHawthorne]

Thier forum, their rules, but those who are incapable of constructive criticism without personal attacks should be removed for the forums anyways just to clear out the riff-raff. I've always been a firm believer that people should attack problems on forums, not other forum members. By problems, I mean resolving questions and issues in prompt and constructive ways. Everyone is perfectly capable of that without being fanboy trolls.

That being said, where do I go to find out what would be the best Engine SDK for a mini-MMO that would be of the same type of developer mindeset MUDs were in the 90's? Would UDK fit that bill? I'd like to do someting as far as a sci-fi RPG with vehicles and flight that could host up to about 250 at once capped.

[Azzedinistan]

;26979024']Azzedinistan, try being fair to some degree.

are you blind ? UE3/UDK is far better than Torque Engine or Unity3D ... And UE3/UDK is not so much more complicated !
If the professionals and Indies prefer choose the UDK and not Torque Engine or Unity3D to make blockbusters , there is a reason and it's plain for all to see :p

[Unreal McCoy]

are you blind ? UE3/UDK is far better than Torque Engine or Unity3D ... And UE3/UDK is not so much more complicated !
If the professionals and Indies prefer choose the UDK and not Torque Engine or Unity3D to make blockbusters , there is a reason and it's plain for all to see :p

It will probably come down to what type of lighting you want. Unreal's lighting is generally static. Torque uses a deferred renderer and therefore its lighting is dynamic. If a day and night cycle is important then the Unreal engine isn't really a good option.

Lighting aside - some of the Unity folks like the idea of being able to show their stuff in a browser. It's definitely good for community building and getting some feedback on your project. It'll be interesting to see if UDK showcase forum is gonna be popular, as distributing or testing projects isn't quite as easy as Unity.

[rd1]

If you guys want to say "another engine has x, how does UDK compare?" there is nothing wrong with that and I would say Epic would not care. What they are trying to avoid is specific product flamewars, while keeping the forum on topic - which is discussion of UDK. So if you don't want this thread closed too I suggest not discussing other engines by name - simple as that.

Yeah - I agree with this, and you may be right that the Epic folks would agree too. I hope that narrow technical comparisons of specific features for particular situations particular situations are fine - that was kinda what I was aiming at in my original post. A blanket ban on discussions that are essentially "my engine is bigger than your engine" seems reasonable.

[rd1]

Oh, and I'd note that some people are getting close to saying "UDK is taller than other engines" in this thread. So, if it heads further in that direction, yeah, maybe this thread should be closed. :-)

[Azzedinistan]

It will probably come down to what type of lighting you want. Unreal's lighting is generally static. Torque uses a deferred renderer and therefore its lighting is dynamic. If a day and night cycle is important then the Unreal engine isn't really a good option.

Lighting aside - some of of Unity folks like the idea of being able to show their stuff in a browser. It's definitely good for community building and getting some feedback on your project. It'll be interesting to see if UDK showcase forum is gonna be popular, as distributing or testing projects isn't quite as easy as Unity.


I don't know how the day-night cycle works on Borderlands , but it works good

[rd1]

I'd guess it gradually swaps to different static lighting models? Hmmm. Can you interpolate between two static models? In theory yes, and if you have the source code yes, but I don't know if UDK supports that. I don't claim to know UDK that well yet.

[Brexer]

Borderlands developers had full source.

Perhaps (i dont know this) they integrated something like http://www.geomerics.com/index.htm (Enlighten) or something, we on the other hand does not have that choice (and it doesnt come cheap) :)

Or, perhaps there's just a trick to it (perhaps write your own shader for the job?), i dont know though :)

[rd1]

If we can't discuss it here, no biggie. There are lots of places to look and here is a great place to start:

http://www.devmaster.net/engines/ Let the flame wars start over there.

I agree with this. I'll be refering such conversations to devmaster or something similar, I suggest others do the same. (your ultimate source for 3D Engines!).

[rd1]

Borderlands developers had full source.

Perhaps (i dont know this) they integrated something like http://www.geomerics.com/index.htm (Enlighten) or something, we on the other hand does not have that choice (and it doesnt come cheap) :)

Or, perhaps there's just a trick to it (perhaps write your own shader for the job?), i dont know though :)

I was suggesting just a series of pre-calculated static lighting, and swapping between them. But, interpolating in between. If they're close enough together it should look okay, perhaps even add some softness to shadows in a good way. It comes with a factor of two, but sometimes that is reasonable, and often you can optimize out some of that factor.

[rd1]

I have to say, for the audience of UDK, I think it's preferable to have a good static lighting solution. Certainly it caters more to indie type games, and it allows serious effects.

I guess it's different when your game has a man walking in a indeterminate path with a lantern in the dark - or perhaps even many such men. But, I think some games aren't like that. And ultimately a more ray-tracing like solution will win in that space - just not quite yet. Deferred rendering is a good technology, but it depends very much on what you want to do, and what you want to do easily.

[wildicv]

There are some comparisons already of Torque and the UDK a biased blog post from a garagegames employee can be found here:

http://www.garagegames.com/community/blogs/view/18741

Don't argue about his views here take it to the torque boards.

[Onikudaki]

I think the engine vs. discussions do not really warrant a thread dedicated to it. There is enough information on the web to give you enough technical information. If you're deciding to switch engines and you are curious as to why you should go the UDK route as opposed to other engines is a decision that you cant make by asking other people on a forum. Ultimate an educated decision will be made by: A) Information you find on the web provided by the creators of that engine. B) Testing the engine out for yourself, level creation, asset implementation..ect.... C) Playing games made with the engine to give you a practical scope on some of the possibilities that can be done with that particular engine.

Asking information on a forum will get you two things. 1) A biased explanation and personal opinions of why the engine rocks or it doesn't. 2) copy/pasted material from the actually web site of the developer.

The engine you need to use falls upon the desired direction of the game/mod you would like to create. Ultimately aligning the technical application with your personal idea of how you view or would like the game to be. Nobody can answer that on a forum.

The question isn't which engine is better, rather which is more appropriate.

[BHawthorne]

I think the engine vs. discussions do not really warrant a thread dedicated to it. There is enough information on the web to give you enough technical information. If you're deciding to switch engines and you are curious as to why you should go the UDK route as opposed to other engines is a decision that you cant make by asking other people on a forum. Ultimate an educated decision will be made by: A) Information you find on the web provided by the creators of that engine. B) Testing the engine out for yourself, level creation, asset implementation..ect.... C) Playing games made with the engine to give you a practical scope on some of the possibilities that can be done with that particular engine.

Asking information on a forum will get you two things. 1) A biased explanation and personal opinions of why the engine rocks or it doesn't. 2) copy/pasted material from the actually web site of the developer.

The engine you need to use falls upon the desired direction of the game/mod you would like to create. Ultimately aligning the technical application with your personal idea of how you view or would like the game to be. Nobody can answer that on a forum.

The question isn't which engine is better, rather which is more appropriate.

One thing you fail to understand in your post is that forums exist to help members work through questions and problems. I think seeing if UDK is a good fit or not for a project is a legitimate thread post, just as is using constructive examples of why it would be a good or bad fit are also validated through comparisions.

[Flak]

We can't even get through a "why we should be able to discuss other engines" thread without insults. ;)

Closing.