Attn: Those with interest in a community created UT or Unreal game.

[Henrik]

Update: It looks like any community created Unreal or UT may be put on ice before even beginning. Epic's Jay Wilbur tells me it would infringe on their IP to move forward with such a project. Who knows if they might change their minds but I doubt it. It seems nobody will be able to create any Unreal related (and obviously Gears etc) games with the UDK, even if it is for free. Sorry all.

-----------------------------------------

Well, I'm just going to get the ball rolling here on this because you knew it was going to happen sooner or later.

Just as an introduction, I have previously served as project lead of Unreal Tournament Revolution. This was a mod for UT2004 that recreated the look and gameplay of the original Unreal Tournament and out of the handful of mods like this, I think we took things the furthest and became the most successful. We managed to release an alpha version which got a lot of very positive critical reviews, and mention in the gaming press. For a short time we even had a nice online community of hundreds of people who played UTR and were very supportive to help us create a following around this new game. We also had original Unreal Tournament composer Michiel Van Den Bos on the team to work on some new tracks!

Although ultimately UTR was laid to rest due to some things that came up, since then, you have come to know many of my other Unreal community efforts including my Mastering UT3 videos and more. I would now like to propose an organized effort to make a community developed UT game. Whether you want to look at that as a "sequel" or "reboot" or whatever, is up to you. But I think the important thing is that such an effort is approached with care and a proper plan, so that everyone is not trying to make their own vision of what UT should be, and in the end nobody playing any of them.

From a legal standpoint, I have also sent off an e-mail to Epic to propose this, and I don't really know yet what they'll say. But I'd also like to see what you all think and thus this thread. If this is not done commercially, it is reasonable to think that this would be no different than creating a UT3 mod, just with far greater flexibility and tools available to us. If it becomes possible to do it commercially, I imagine Epic would retain all rights... but I'm not going to get ahead of myself here. I just think that a community led UT is feasible and people within Epic have already suggested it could happen (see Tim Sweeney's August G4TV interview). Then there is the fact that the UDK includes everything we need to begin, a template in the form of a new enhanced UT3 demo.

So I would like to organize a team, and would only be taking on dedicated individuals who can demonstrate an ability to the standard such a project would require. I have seen plenty of mod talent out there like this, so it's not that I think it should have unreasonably high requirements so that barely anyone could contribute, but at the same time, I think we need to be choosy or everyone would be trying to stir the pot and it would lose focus very quickly.

If the project is approved I will begin recruiting for some people to help lead, and then others to help fill other positions. We will plan this as democratically as possible and give the community the opportunity to have a lot of input. I don't want people to think I am claiming this as "my project". This is why I want to appoint people to help lead, rather than just have 1 person in charge. This in itself is tricky but I think it is the only way such an initiative could succeed over the long term. I only think that because of my past experience and desire to see UT continue, I may as well be the one to bring up this idea and start organizing it initially.

What does everyone else think? Please don't start with "there should be this and this in the game" because this isn't the time for that just yet, and I do have a plan I would like to present should this move forward. I only want to guage the response and potential of this first.

Thanks.

[Simburgur]

I like the idea - I'll add you on msn ;)

[Infra`]

Sounds good to me, I probably won't be much help with most of it. I'm barely passing my java programming class :P But I'll help any way I can.

[Shak]

I was having this very same talk with some other folks on irc, but you've already put it much better than I was. I was mainly concerned with honing the "competitive" aspect of UT3 relating to gun tweaks and such, but it falls under the umbrella of creating an improved version of UT3. I'll gladly help where I can.

[DrUnKenSTeiN]

I'd really would like to see that happen.Too bad i can't help with pretty much nothing but playtesting and feedback :(.

[dasKaRmA]

sounds interesting. I might be able to help out with mapping.

[Hojunhu]

I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer, but was there any surprise that this wouldn't be allowed?

[Henrik]

Not so much, but it wasn't exactly clear to begin with. Epic were sending mixed messages about it for some time, but now we know, from a legal perspective, it's not doable even if some people at Epic think it would be cool.

[ambershee]

There is however, nothing to stop you from creating an arena-based shooter of your own devising ;)

[Henrik]

Ambershee: Oh I'm aware of that. Believe me

But that requires a bit of a different way of going about it and more planning. I'm also not sure that's a step I want to take at least just yet. But I will say that I have been developing a cool idea even before this which, if it comes to fruition, will be a story that works on a vaguely similar premise, to be animated first, and then, if the concept takes off, who knows, I might develop a game out of it. But I have other things going with the UDK, which is why I merely wanted to help organize and oversee a community UT, not necessarily be at the center of its development 100% of the time.

[pacerx]

I'm getting mixed messages here. You can use the UT demo content and use the source code provided but it would infringe on their IP? I don't get it.

[ambershee]

It means you can borrow content for community projects, but not IP. The source code can be lifted from to provide functionality for your game, but you can't use it to recreate an Epic IP. Case in example, look at Cell Factor on XBLA/PsNet. It's a deathmatch game, with pickup points a lot like UT3; but it does not carry over any of the Unreal IP.

[pacerx]

That still does not make sense to me. I just don't understand how they can say you can use this stuff but you can't use their "IP".

What is too much like UT such that it infringes on their IP?

Do they really want to sue somebody if they do release a free UT clone?

[ambershee]

No they don't - but they also cannot allow it for their own reasons. That's just how it works.

[Raen]

Here's an idea: How about just starting a more general "Community Project" that is not Unreal related, but is a multiplayer first person shooter? It would be a good way to get a strong community built up, and would be a great way to get people involved.

[Cr4zy]

Was speaking to paperk on irc about something just liek this :p

[BlueCloud]

I think Epic's issue is that people will be able to play this game freely without buying UT3 and that's understandable. Why not make a community project to mod UT3 adding things like ingame server browser etc. and players will need UT3 installed to use this mod, so I don't think Epic will have issue with that since they will sell more copies of UT3 if the mod is successful. (Just like it had no issue with UTR earlier since it needed 2k4 to run).

[BlueCloud]

That still does not make sense to me. I just don't understand how they can say you can use this stuff but you can't use their "IP".

What is too much like UT such that it infringes on their IP?

Do they really want to sue somebody if they do release a free UT clone?

I think what they mean is that you cannot use the Unreal trademark anywhere in that clone's name, documents, manuals, trailers, anywhere. That's what is meant by 'IP'. The UDK licence doesn't contain any restrictions on making a FPS so unless Epic has any patents related to UT I don't think how they can have a standing to sue.

[Sanch3z]

So, could a standalone game be created:

1. using some code from UT3
2. using assets from UT3: static meshes, textures, etc

as long as "Unreal Tournament" or "UT" is not used in the name and there are no other references to the IP?

Not that I plan to do it but what if I wanted to make a standalone game called "Onslaught"?

[BlueCloud]

So, could a standalone game be created:

1. using some code from UT3
2. using assets from UT3: static meshes, textures, etc

as long as "Unreal Tournament" or "UT" is not used in the name and there are no other references to the IP?

Not that I plan to do it but what if I wanted to make a standalone game called "Onslaught"?

I don't think the UT3 assets or code can be used in a standalone game, the license doesn't allow it?

The bigger question is why would you want to do that anyway. The game is what, like 10 bucks now?

[ambershee]

You can use code, but you can't use the assets for commercial use.

You could create a game called Onslaught, so long as it is not a copy of the game mode.

[Henrik]

Using code from UDK, yes. Using code from UT3, I doubt it. Same for assets from it.

Certainly nobody could ever get away with making a blatant UT clone commercially using UDK, as it is perfectly within Epic's power to revoke a commercial license at any time. If they felt it was stepping a bit too close to their turf I suspect they would.

As a free effort, it might be plausible.

[Sanch3z]

10 bucks vs a free game is a big difference.

Example 1:

Free UT2k4 demo. Free games get more players (freeloaders, regardless, more players is better).

Example 2:

Content included in the free game that is made with the players of that game, or gametype, in mind. There are many people still around that are looking for a particular style of play and this would be catering to that style of play. You would not have to download 60+MB maps off of a servers redirect everytime you wanted to play.

[ambershee]

Using code from UDK, yes. Using code from UT3, I doubt it.


Use of Epic's code in a commercial mod is not restricted.

Dunno, it's a thin line. Notably, it might not be possible to directly port that code anyway, since there are likely differences in the UDK and a lot of missing native code. Don't forget though, that the UT3 unrealscript has
been freely available to anyone to tinker with for a couple of years now, and it's the same code licensees get to look at an abuse. I guess official clarification of that would go a long way.

[Henrik]

Oh, yeah hm I guess you have a good point. What thread did Steve say that in?

[ambershee]

It's in this forum somewhere xD

[Sanch3z]

You could create a game called Onslaught, so long as it is not a copy of the game mode.

thanks ambershee and Bersy. What I'm getting at here is that free is best, I'm not interested in making money off a hobby, unless someone wants to throw it at me :D The shock rifle is the best weapon I've ever experienced in a game, as are many of the Epic created assets. What if I created a gun, call it the "pumpkin exploder" that right click shoots a pumpkin and left click firing and hitting that pumpkin makes it explode ( obvious shock rifle ripoff).

Or I could make Onslaught as it is known but call it Control Point....

I dont have the time, or determination to make a game from scratch, plus I dont know if I really care that much to be a developer, I just want to have good games with like minded gaming friends...

[M^vL]

Yeah didn't Tim Sweeney allude to having the community build the next UT in an interview a couple months ago? I'm sure the UDK was what he was thinking about when he said that. Maybe I read too much into what he was saying...

[SneakySoft]

If you create a quake like game, I don't think epic would care...

[pacerx]

If you can't create a free UT clone, you'd have to consider the UDK "jail-bait-ware".

[Henrik]

Quake sucks ;)

M^vL I understood the same thing from that interview. And that's why I thought it was worth proposing at all and running it by Epic. Guess they can argue it was done "tongue in cheek" or whatever but that's kind of misleading. Nonetheless, no sweat off my back. I have put enough effort into "making UT better", I'm still proud to be a part of such a fine community, but I'll just take this as a sign to focus on my own projects 100% with UDK. Which to be honest I should be doing anyway.

[coolcat22]

i like too see a new
Unreal Tournament Revolution

[Hektor_hun]

i would love to see a new UTR aswell. if it harms EPIC then as a mod, ut3 is cheap anyway.

[Malevol3nt]

Forget UT, I want to see a new Jazz Jackrabbit sequel in 3D!

[Demruth]

OMF: 3097? :p

[Fred187]

What if we were to make Real Tournament...?

[Nawrot]

What if we were to make Real Tournament...?

You can make arena shooter, but with your own assets, movement, weapons and code. I doubt if porting faces or lava giant will be allowed. And then we back to this discussion: "can have unreal on new engine?".

[WillM]

I think what they mean is that you cannot use the Unreal trademark anywhere in that clone's name, documents, manuals, trailers, anywhere. That's what is meant by 'IP'. The UDK licence doesn't contain any restrictions on making a FPS so unless Epic has any patents related to UT I don't think how they can have a standing to sue.

Pretty close.
We want everyone making whatever game they want. If it's a multiplayer deathmatch game that's awesome! If it's an isometric racing game like RC Pro-Am that's awesome!

You don't want to take our exact formula, weapons, characters, etc., but why would you? Create your own universe with your own weapons and your own rules. That's the fun part of it! Carbon-copying previous UT concepts is much more boring. Use us for inspiration to do something entirely yours.

A good rule of thumb is that, if you think you might be too close to something distinctly Unreal or UT, you probably are.

[Henrik]

Yeah. I'm personally not interested in making a "copy" of UT with a different name. The original proposal was a community made UT, to continue the series. The "why" behind that was obvious. People have known UT for years and want to see it continue. Doing a copy of UT with a different name is just in bad taste though.

I will probably at some point in the near future be making a multiplayer deathmatch game, and I may borrow concepts I like, such as dodging, that's a fun game mechanic - but the universe and premise, weapons etc will be unique.

[Hektor_hun]

Well tbh, Ut3 was a pretty big failure. We can see the server browsers, how many people play it online. Its not even near to ut/ut2k4. Also ut community is splitted to 3 parts and even between the parts it has nw(ctf,tdm,1on1) and insta(ctf,tdm) players.

Thatswhy i think it would be necessary to create a game wich could merge the communities, to make a new UT with a bigger playerbase. Becouse, lets be honest, younger people didnt even heard from UT series, they have no clue what it is, they mostly only know cs/cod/l4d. Combine a game with bad marketing like UT3, releasing it in an alpha state with tons of bugs, glitches, then of course people are not playing it. 1,5 years after the release with patch 2.0 it was a dream to play it, but its too long time, people already gave up UT3.

and ye, the biggest failure is the lack of linux client. and looks like epic doesnt even bother. they promised it, but didnt keep their word, not the first time.

UT's gameplay is very good , but its engine is outdated, and its netcode is very bad. With the new engine's netcode and graphical ability, combined with the good old UT gameplay, we could have some hell of a fun game. Thatswhy it would be great to finish that UTR. It would be good either as a mod for ut3, so that wont hurt EPIC, coz people would need the original ut3 to run the mod.

[LennardF1989]

You can use code, but you can't use the assets for commercial use.

You could create a game called Onslaught, so long as it is not a copy of the game mode.
Gametypes aren't copyrightable with "ownership", as Project Stealth we had this discussion with Ubisoft. That would mean all games after Doom/Quake are breaking the rules by having a Deathmatch gametype, which is essentially the same in each game (Ok ok, Medal of Honor called it a Free-for-All...). You can say a gametype is a complete ripoff but not actually take legal steps against it.

Though, as WillM said, if the overall feeling of the game is like Unreal when playing your adaption of DM, then you are probably breaking rules. By making slight differences such as names, characters, different type of menu, you already get rid of that feeling.

[DrUnKenSTeiN]

What about converting warsow(http://www.warsow.net/) with the new engine?in youtube u can find a lot of vids with gameplay etc.Its fast n near ut or quake gameplay.If i could i'd give this a shot.Since its a community thing, i bet u can find help.

Too bad i got no skills for engines,cant help at all :( .


Just an idea....

If some of u guys wanna do it it would be great n should need its own thread imo.Since i cant support it i wont spam a new thread.I'll be happy to help with beta testing or ideas as a gamer.Anything i can do....

[BHawthorne]

Update: It looks like any community created Unreal or UT may be put on ice before even beginning. Epic's Jay Wilbur tells me it would infringe on their IP to move forward with such a project. Who knows if they might change their minds but I doubt it. It seems nobody will be able to create any Unreal related (and obviously Gears etc) games with the UDK, even if it is for free. Please keep this thread open and visible Flak? In case some others get the same idea - and we can be sure they will. Sorry all.

Purely from the perspective on Intellectual Property rights it makes perfect sense. It's their IP. They have the final say over anything related to thier IP and everyone is legally bound to follow thier choices. I don't see why anyone would question this. Come up with your own IP and be creative, instead of building upon the shoulders of someone elses IP. People incerting thier random ideas and random quality control as a third party over something that directly makes revanue for Epic would definitely put you under fire. Your effecting thier bottom line by taking options away from them and also potenitally effecting thier income capability. Say you release the next greatest Unreal or UT and it conflicts with Epic's design goals or future projects? Using someone elses IP is the easy way out. It's much harder to come up with an interesting and engauging original IP.

Sure, you could make a generic knockoff, but any mention of specific IP content would put you into legal troubles. Generic elements aren't in question in these types of games -- space marines, zombies, aliens, etc... but mention of trademarks will be what will sink a project.

This is all common sense, but in many cases common sense isn't that common anymore.

[Hojunhu]

Purely from the perspective on Intellectual Property rights it makes perfect sense. It's their IP. They have the final say over anything related to thier IP and everyone is legally bound to follow thier choices. I don't see why anyone would question this. Come up with your own IP and be creative, instead of building upon the shoulders of someone elses IP. People incerting thier random ideas and random quality control as a third party over something that directly makes revanue for Epic would definitely put you under fire. Your effecting thier bottom line by taking options away from them and also potenitally effecting thier income capability. Say you release the next greatest Unreal or UT and it conflicts with Epic's design goals or future projects? Using someone elses IP is the easy way out. It's much harder to come up with an interesting and engauging original IP.

Sure, you could make a generic knockoff, but any mention of specific IP content would put you into legal troubles. Generic elements aren't in question in these types of games -- space marines, zombies, aliens, etc... but mention of trademarks will be what will sink a project.

This is all common sense, but in many cases common sense isn't that common anymore.

Way to tell him what's what AFTER he said HIMSELF why this project failed before starting. That takes a real winner.

[Henrik]

BHawthorne with all due respect, you don't really understand me at all or even seem to make an effort to read what I have said. As I will explain in the next paragraph, the first implication was that once UDK was released people could do something like this, there was no clear suggestion that such a thing would be illegal. But just to make sure, because I didn't want myself or others to waste time, I thought it would be wise to first e-mail Epic's legal department. So to be frank it was not a "cease & desist" sort of thing at all, I took the initiative myself to get their legal advice because the lines were not clear. It turned out we couldn't do it, and that's that. From your post you imply that I am complaining about it, when I am doing nothing of the sort. I'm trying to make it clear for anyone else who has thoughts of doing it.

I am already involved in my own IP, this was purely a passion project that many would have liked to see happen. Furthermore when you talk about random ideas I would say you have completely the wrong idea about the project's goals. If anything, it would have been about staying true to the core of the Unreal universe, and in fact cleaning up and making the timeline and content itself more consistent, rather than inserting things on a whim because it would be "cool". Based on 4 radically different games in the UT universe and their current statements to the end that they will not be developing a new Unreal franchise game for the foreseeable future, perhaps it is also fair to say that they most likely do not have any specific design goals in regard to it, and this might also be why Tim Sweeney would say something like this in an interview? I'll paraphrase: "With the toolset we're going to be making available soon, we don't even need to make UT4, the community could do that themselves". So perhaps you should not be so quick to blame and go off on a tangent about "common sense"...?

And lastly, if I haven't repeated this enough, I'll re-iterate, I'm not interested in making a knockoff. If you want to talk about interesting and engaging original IP's, keep an eye out. ;) Since I might just surprise you in that department too. ;)

[Vald]

This was a mod for UT2004 that recreated the look and gameplay of the original Unreal Tournament and out of the handful of mods like this, I think we took things the furthest and became the most successful. We managed to release an alpha version which got a lot of very positive critical reviews, and mention in the gaming press.

Why then don't you make something yours since you're so good and stop crying about it.

[Henrik]

Explain your comment. I see almost all your 10 posts are full of cynical replies to people.. if you are "happy to be here" then perhaps you should be a bit more respectful and if you don't have something worthwhile to say, a good rule of thumb is not to say anything.

[Benfica]

Why then don't you make something yours since you're so good and stop crying about it.
Let me look at the thread title again: Attn: Those with interest in a community created UT or Unreal game.

So, this thread is clearly for the UT fans. I'd swear that there are millions of threads on thousands of forums for the ones that are not !

[Vald]

Explain your comment. I see almost all your 10 posts are full of cynical replies to people.. if you are "happy to be here" then perhaps you should be a bit more respectful and if you don't have something worthwhile to say, a good rule of thumb is not to say anything.

What has that to do now? :rolleyes:

Why do you want to use UDK if it's about Unreal related game for Fans and not just use what you where using before?

[Henrik]

Plenty of reasons. UDK has new technology & features, greater stability, etc that would obviously be desirable in creating an Unreal game or any other project of such scope.
"what I was using before" was UT2004, and we stopped working on that project in 2005. I was merely giving some background information about similar projects I have done in the past, but this would obviously need to start from scratch, and why would I not want to take advantage of the newest tech available? The reasons for your aggression still eludes me.

[Vald]

Plenty of reasons. UDK has new technology & features, greater stability, etc that would obviously be desirable in creating an Unreal game or any other project of such scope.
"what I was using before" was UT2004, and we stopped working on that project in 2005. I was merely giving some background information about similar projects I have done in the past, but this would obviously need to start from scratch, and why would I not want to take advantage of the newest tech available? The reasons for your aggression still eludes me.

Well then get your own Assets+code and make something similar or just stick with the MODing tools and their own forums.

[Henrik]

Try reading the thread before posting your "advice". I'm going to ask an admin to close this, it's run its course of usefulness.