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Entropy
02-02-2009, 02:38 PM
We’re providing MSUC entry feedback in this forum so our comments are available to all entrants. The suggestions and comments posted on this forum are mere observations, the implementation or application of which may not have any effect on the chances of success of future or revised entries. Please refer to the judging criteria specified in the rules.

Determining what makes a good map can be very difficult. There are countless factors that go into designing and building a map, and you have to account for the gametype, target audience, personal tastes, and many other factors. In order to quantify these factors, Make Something Unreal entries are judged based on the following criteria: Creativity, Visuals, Innovation, Fun, Quality, Polish, and Gameplay (see the official rules). So, in the case of this contest, a "good map" will be one that delivers high marks consistently across all of these categories. Making a pretty map will only get you so far. Coming up with a perfectly balanced hardcore DM layout is not enough. Maps like CTF-CBP3-Arean or vCTF-Apex are strong in several of the above categories all at once.

I've been making maps professionally for over a decade, and doing it as a hobby for twice that time. I've seen people make maps out of their bedroom or office (both on miniature scale as well as gigantic). I've seen industrial warehouses, beautiful gardens, alien planets, fantasy settings, just about everything. As such, I really appreciate something that pushes creative boundaries. I'm especially impressed when someone can push those boundaries within the framework of the game and gametype they're building around. Maps like vCTF-FrozenTomb and DM-SteamTemple both bring something new to the table with innovative gameplay that helps them stand out from other entries. DM-Worm and DM-Windbook are both instantly recognizable and highly memorable because of their creative visuals. Again, this is wholly different from the quality of their visuals or gameplay, I'm speaking from a purely creative and innovative point of view. A successfully creative or innovative map will almost always be memorable - even from a single play through - because it makes an impression.

Keep in mind, however, that just adding a gimmick to your map is not enough to make an impression. Overall quality is important, including how well that gimmick integrates into the core gameplay loop. As such, quality and polish often go hand in hand. Is your map full of "sticky spots" that players will snag on when running around? Are there collision holes where the player can fall out of the world? Do the bots path effectively through the entire level and use all the weapons, vehicles, and features of the map? Are there any glaring flow problems that imbalance a map or create dead space that never sees gameplay? Does ambient audio fill the space without any awkward holes, skips, or gaps? Is your scale correct, and does it accommodate the intended gameplay? Is performance in line across a wide selection of hardware? Have the tools been used effectively (BSP on grid, proper use of instanced mesh work, optimized materials/shaders, clean bug-free scripting, etc.)? These are just some examples of factors that combine to determine the overall quality and polish of a map. A map like CTF-Dreary is what we call solid: it is professional quality, practically ready to ship with the game itself.

Finally, despite the presence or absence of all other things, the two most important factors that must be present in your map are gameplay and fun. Your design has to demonstrate a solid understanding of the core gameplay loop and fundamentals of the gametype. I don't care how pretty, memorable, or polished your map is if you've just dropped in two Power Cores and called it a Warfare map. A good map is designed specifically for the weapons, vehicles, and gameplay present. A good map is balanced, well thought out. Most importantly, a good map is fun to play - everything else is just pretty wrapping and presentation. While this is the most difficult thing to accomplish with a map, there are some basic guidelines that you can follow: Vehicle maps shouldn't be too tight or snaggy to drive vehicles through. Make sure that whatever vehicle or weapon you put in the map serves a purpose and is there to enhance the gameplay; don't just put a manta in because it's your favorite vehicle, or drop in a shock rifle because the map didn't have one. Think about the specific location that you're placing particular items. Is there too much health near the Flag base? Why is the bio rifle set out to cover a huge wide-open field? Is there a good balance between short-, mid- and long-range combat? Can I counter that sniper? Why can I shoot that Power Node from this turret all the way across the map? Are powerups balanced in terms of risk and reward? And finally, does the map have wide appeal? A perfectly balanced, cyclical DM map with good z-axis gameplay and a clan focus probably won't garner much notice outside of a very small group of hardcore gamers. That's not to say these maps are bad, and they most certainly have their place, but the average gamer needs to understand your map and have fun as soon as they start playing or chances are that they will tune out and move on to the next thing. If your map is only fun after hours of play, or only if you play it the way you want it to be played, then chances are good that (in reality) the map is not fun.

Balancing all these separate factors is no easy task. As stated above, we look for maps that really can juggle each aspect of map design and pull it all together in a unified presentation. As judges, we play the maps alone, vs. bots, vs. each other, online, and on a LAN. We look at them in the editor as well as in game, compare notes, and talk in depth about the strengths and weaknesses of each. The list of finalists is the outcome of all these discussions and observations. Regardless of the final rankings, our hope is that you'll have as much fun playing through all these maps as we did.

Angel_Mapper
02-02-2009, 02:41 PM
I love the smell of feedback in the morning. Smells like... victory.

Daniel KaMi
02-02-2009, 03:06 PM
great feedback, thanks!

wael
02-02-2009, 03:08 PM
Thanks for the feedback Entropy. I'm guessing we're nearing the results now.

evilmrfrank
02-02-2009, 03:11 PM
Cool thanks for the feedback :)

jayoplus
02-02-2009, 03:34 PM
That was a very nice write up. Very informative feedback.

PS: I smell Arean 1st place :D

Looking forward to the final results.

Pop!
02-02-2009, 04:08 PM
Hurrah!!

Pop!

Cr4zy
02-02-2009, 06:17 PM
if you've just dropped in two Power Cores and called it a Warfare map
Hey if only it worked until it hits over time and the game crashes :p

Nice feedback :)

Nurb
02-02-2009, 06:25 PM
Thanks for taking the time to write that feedback Jim. It means alot coming from you as lead level designer and it means Epic takes this competition very seriously. Now how bout em results? ;)

N3oDoc
02-02-2009, 06:33 PM
Thanks for the nice feedback :)

MozI
02-02-2009, 06:50 PM
Good stuff looking forward the results soon. Though just curious no name drops of the WAR maps. :)

Purely unintended, as WAR encompasses this discussion, or is there another post coming geared toward Best WAR maps?

Angel_Mapper
02-02-2009, 06:57 PM
Oh god no, no more feedback just announce the winners already! :p

MozI
02-02-2009, 06:59 PM
Oh god no, no more feedback just announce the winners already! :p

Fair enough... :D

g0th
02-02-2009, 09:34 PM
Thanks for taking some time and writing this feedback, much appreciated

Entropy
02-03-2009, 11:55 AM
Good stuff looking forward the results soon. Though just curious no name drops of the WAR maps. :)

Purely unintended, as WAR encompasses this discussion, or is there another post coming geared toward Best WAR maps?

Glad to see that people are excited, but there's no need to look that deep into it. There's no conspiracy, I promise!

MozI
02-03-2009, 12:10 PM
Np Entropy, was curious that's all...

evilmrfrank
02-03-2009, 12:12 PM
Glad to see that people are excited, but there's no need to look that deep into it. There's no conspiracy, I promise!

Any estimated date as to when the winners will start being announced? :D

bazzwano
02-03-2009, 06:02 PM
Yay. thats great to hear. Thanks for the feedback on my map and many ofthers in the Catagory.

neoduck
02-03-2009, 08:02 PM
Glad to see that people are excited, but there's no need to look that deep into it. There's no conspiracy, I promise!

you're in trouble now, Jim! biiiiig trouble!

Sanch3z
02-13-2009, 12:05 PM
thanks Entropy, I'm just curious as to this statement: "Have the tools been used effectively (BSP on grid, etc)".

does it really matter if BSP is on grid as long as the end product produces the result you are after? Using tools in a non-conforming way as to how they were intended is how new ideas and tools are invented. Not that the last sentence can be 100% applied to BSP and grids but I'm sure you can see where I am going with this.

For a living I am a mason and rarely is anything totally square and plumb but most of the time its the carpenters fault :D Not every brick I lay is 100% perfect but in the end it looks good and works, the same can go for BSP and static meshes.

Nurb
02-13-2009, 12:29 PM
thanks Entropy, I'm just curious as to this statement: "Have the tools been used effectively (BSP on grid, etc)".

does it really matter if BSP is on grid as long as the end product produces the result you are after? Using tools in a non-conforming way as to how they were intended is how new ideas and tools are invented. Not that the last sentence can be 100% applied to BSP and grids but I'm sure you can see where I am going with this.

For a living I am a mason and rarely is anything totally square and plumb but most of the time its the carpenters fault :D Not every brick I lay is 100% perfect but in the end it looks good and works, the same can go for BSP and static meshes.



In games you do yourself a great disservice if you don't use the grid. Not using the grid can lead to all sorts of problems such as z-fighting in textures, strangely drawn bsp, and light- and collission problems to name a few.

I agree that grid-usage can be very obvious sometimes which often produces a very digital and "too perfect" result that looks unrealistic. However, a skilled level designer can work around these problems (still staying on the grid) by for example using less angular geometry, introducing diagonals, working cleverly with terrain and breaking up straight lines with geometric detail.

Sanch3z
02-13-2009, 12:48 PM
I'm not knocking grid use, I know thats how it should be done. I'm just thinking in terms of the map I will be submitting for phase 3 which initially started out as 3 different projects. I took some aspects of each project and combined them to come up with an environment I think is pretty cool but in the process of working stuff together none of my BSP ended up on grid. If I dont have any issues with "z-fighting in textures, strangely drawn bsp, and light- and collission problems" when I submit the map I think it would be slightly unfair to lose points just because the grid wasnt used.

spacedemonebu
02-13-2009, 05:04 PM
so do we ask here for individual level feedback? if so, please tell me about war-holywar, which got an HM in best warfare and did not get anything in best graphics

»TheHitMan«
02-15-2009, 03:11 PM
I think the judges died, I haven't heard any news in a while.

Entropy
02-16-2009, 07:24 PM
thanks Entropy, I'm just curious as to this statement: "Have the tools been used effectively (BSP on grid, etc)".

does it really matter if BSP is on grid as long as the end product produces the result you are after?

It's absolutely important! Clean scripting is considerably less difficult to debug, and not as prone to errors. BSP on the grid is much more efficient to build with (no need to non-uniformly scale materials, you'll get fewer holes/errors, and the map will actually run faster as well -- BSP cuts across an entire map, so more brushes that line up and share grid lines means fewer cuts). Using meshes at uniform scale is easier and significantly faster in terms of placement (try lining up two wall pieces at 1.0 scale and 512 grid intervals as opposed to scaling them to 1.00003 and 1.017823 and snapping the verts), avoids z-fighting (the effects of which can vary depending on video card hardware), avoids holes in the world that can cause visual anomalies, prevents collision and pathing errors.... I could go on and on.

In short, being clean and efficient is one of the more important aspects of building maps, and this is exponentially true in a group scenario where many people will be touching the content.

And everything else aside, if two guys painted your house exactly the same, but one of them spilled paint on the floor and left dirty brushes lying around, which would you recommend to a friend?

MozI
02-16-2009, 08:38 PM
And everything else aside, if two guys painted your house exactly the same, but one of them spilled paint on the floor and left dirty brushes lying around, which would you recommend to a friend?

Spilling paint is one thing just as bad misaligned textures, but damn those dirty brushes make some far out HOM effects. :D

Ok that was a bad attempt at humor but nonetheless one can never go wrong with lining up all their base BSP work to the grid, which in the end adds to the meaning of 'attention to detail'

Angel_Mapper
02-16-2009, 08:46 PM
And everything else aside, if two guys painted your house exactly the same, but one of them spilled paint on the floor and left dirty brushes lying around, which would you recommend to a friend?The one that uh... announced which houses were the best. Wait that doesn't work. :confused:

MozI
02-16-2009, 08:50 PM
The one that uh... announced which houses were the best. Wait that doesn't work. :confused:

Even though the paint was spilled it's still waiting to dry on some of those houses I guess.

evilmrfrank
02-16-2009, 11:50 PM
And everything else aside, if two guys painted your house exactly the same, but one of them spilled paint on the floor and left dirty brushes lying around, which would you recommend to a friend?

We are done painting the houses, when can we expect the house owners to tell us how good we did? :D

bazzwano
02-17-2009, 02:01 AM
lol I carnt stop laughing ... good one Mrfrank haha

Entropy
02-17-2009, 10:54 AM
Am I sensing a bit of antici-





...








...



-pation?

(thank you Rocky Horror!)

Sanch3z
02-17-2009, 11:02 AM
thanks for the reply to my question Entropy. ;)

MozI
02-17-2009, 01:07 PM
Just a shot in the dark... but will winners be announced before or at GDC 09?

I am sure you are not at liberty to say, Jim... but just thinking that the last announcement was at Austin GDC last year. Just putting 2 and 2 together and given GDC is next big industry event till E3 (which I am stoked for this year!)

We need a twiddling thumbs smiley for use in this thread as we wait in anticipation.

Edit: Well winners are out, but at least I the guessed of the importance of GDC correct as winning maps and mods will be showcased, that's awesome!