I demand a recount

[[H3D]Pendragon]

And I know exactly how to do it.

Epic should host a server for each game type, put all the maps on it. Let the players play them and vote them for a week.

After that see which map gets played the most.

Remember, 5% of the maps that made the finalist cut won't be able to be played on the public server, as they cause the multilayer mode to crash.

Who's with me?

[[H3D]Pendragon]

We run the Great Wall map, and it works fine on our server, however we recently found that there are places you can hide in the geometry with the flag because of collision errors. Now the judges don't see this type of thing because they don't apparently actually play the maps. However this is the exact type of thing us players and other mappers are talking about. This type of map bug kills game play.

[Angel_Mapper]

What in the hell is up with the community these days? Seriously? If you're not happy with the results of the contest, fine. Keep it to yourself. Threads like these serve no purpose, won't change anything, and will only build resentment and divide the community.

[Distant Land]

I think the community can handle dissenting opinions...But there's no reason for a recount or second go on P2...they chose who they chose.

Which one gets the most play would not be a good judge anyway because that would only tell which one worked well multiplayer, or just which one people liked multiplayer...judging what makes a map good is another process itself, but needs clear defined guidelines.

[MozI]

What in the hell is up with the community these days? Seriously? If you're not happy with the results of the contest, fine. Keep it to yourself. Threads like these serve no purpose, won't change anything, and will only build resentment and divide the community.

Both BU and Epic forums for the most part are cynical with a myriad of complaints on many different things such as MSU, UT3, or Gears 2. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but seeing thread after thread of the same stuff is sickening.

I miss the old days when the community was united and kicked ass.

[Hourences]

I am with Angel Mapper.

Plus, with all do respect, but having the players/public vote usually results in a horrible mess. Just look at politics :)

[wael]

Plus, with all do respect, but having the players/public vote usually results in a horrible mess. Just look at politics :)
Agreed, the maps that get played the most are maps like AndAction. And when it comes to judging something as complex as a map the general populace can't be trusted to make a good decision. Leave it to the pros.
And if you don't agree with the results feel free to mention in it once if you absolutely feel you need to get it off your chest but at the end of the day it's Epic and Intel's money so they get to decide who they give it to not you.

[Sjosz]

Good grief, get a hold of yourself.
I'm convinced the jury consists of nothing but professionals (heck, as far as I know I'd say it's fair to assume they're Epic employees who built UT3 in the first place) and you demand a recount?
So you didn't become a finalist. Get over it and make your next levels better so and enter again in the next phase.
Voting via community doesn't work. Buddy politics will play a large part of such a vote and there is no way anyone is going to convince me otherwise. Seeing which map gets played most on a public server will only result in similar politics.

Just wow.

[[H3D]Pendragon]

Now that I think of it, it would only judge game play, not how well the map looks. Someone said this to me and it made since. Shoebox gets played all the time on our server, but isn't the best looking map by far.

Well, I think this still is how they should define the best gameplay.

[Kantham]

I miss the old days when the community was united and kicked ass.

I miss the old days when the games were solid and kicked ass.

[MozI]

I miss the old days when the games were solid and kicked ass.

Touché..oh the good ol' days....

[Sjosz]

Pendragon;25906337']Now that I think of it, it would only judge game play, not how well the map looks. Someone said this to me and it made since. Shoebox gets played all the time on our server, but isn't the best looking map by far.

Well, I think this still is how they should define the best gameplay.

Who knows, maybe they even play it on a judges' server only. Public servers don't show what maps play best by default, they only show what maps are being played most.

[bazzwano]

What in the hell is up with the community these days? Seriously? If you're not happy with the results of the contest, fine. Keep it to yourself. Threads like these serve no purpose, won't change anything, and will only build resentment and divide the community.

Agreed...

And disagree with the thread because I trust epic..

[Daze]

To be honest what's being played on public servers the most is usually terrible even looking at gameplay only. :c

[schenksmill]

This is getting pretty ridiculous....if you aren't happy with the results, figure out what you can do better for Phase 3 and spend your time doing that, rather than whining about a phase that ended 3 months ago. You really are just wasting your own time here trying to change something that is long past.

[Mclogenog]

Your logic if flawed: players are biased, gameplay is only part of level design--two levels of equal gameplay can be judged for visuals to break the tie--and a contest server can not monitor a creative product's popularity.

Good luck to the appreciative contestants.

[Indy]

LMAO..

Was going to comment but I'm still LMAO so hard that I'll just agree with schenksmill

ROFL

[Cr4zy]

Eurhmmmm....

/thread

[Plutonic]

What is so hard to understand about the following statement? "All judges' decisions are final and binding in all respects." (http://www.makesomethingunreal.com/rules.aspx)

Epic, Intel and associates put up a great deal of money and considerable time to run this contest; they deserve respect! But no, what they get is forums filled with complaints about the results, baseless conspiratorial theories about the judging, and demands to reorganise the whole contest.

Please, let's each of us remember that this contest is a wonderful gift to community that is unmatched. Every contestant receives great exposure for their work and, more importantly in my view, an opportunity to learn and grow in skill while attempting to compete with the improving standard in each phase. The community gets access to new content that gets better with each phase. UT3's longevity as a game and part of a series is increased. Everybody wins!

So please, have some respect for the contest and the people of who give so much to make it happen.

[MozI]

What is so hard to understand about the following statement? "All judges' decisions are final and binding in all respects." (http://www.makesomethingunreal.com/rules.aspx)

Epic, Intel and associates put up a great deal of money and considerable time to run this contest; they deserve respect! But no, what they get is forums filled with complaints about the results, baseless conspiratorial theories about the judging, and demands to reorganise the whole contest.

Please, let's each of us remember that this contest is a wonderful gift to community that is unmatched. Every contestant receives great exposure for their work and, more importantly in my view, an opportunity to learn and grow in skill while attempting to compete with the improving standard in each phase. The community gets access to new content that gets better with each phase. UT3's longevity as a game and part of a series is increased. Everybody wins!

So please, have some respect for the contest and the people of who give so much to make it happen.

Well said Plutonic. Agree or disagree with the outcome MSUC really helps promote new maps for UT 3.

[foultzy]

Very nicely put. They all chip in a hefty amount to come to the $1000000 total, and I think you should be grateful for the opportunity to participate in such a thing. It's like Gears of War PC--Epic does it for the PC community and all I've seen many of them do now is complain about how they don't provide them maid service at the snap of their finger and fulfill their own desires.

Entropy (Jim Brown, lead level designer at Epic Games) explained the whole process before, and decisions are very hard to come by. He said that a lot of opinions are gathered, many design elements are checked, and each and every map gets a thorough breakdown by those having part in running the contest. They'll even open your maps up in the editor to analyze them and debate against each other over their maps of choice. They aren't just ignoring you, and your designing will constantly improve with more practice and more work. So let's not rant and just start preparing your stuff for Phase 3.

[spacedemonebu]

i would never be so crass

[Oldskool0482]

I voted no, the results are in its over with gear up for Phase 3 is all I can suggest. And Just cause a map is popular don't mean its great, Anarchy Halls is one of the most popular Custom VCTF Maps, but it isn't great gameplay its spam, CanalWarfare is a good looking and good gameplay map, but it don't get played quite as much as Anarchy Does.

[MozI]

How about we all demand this thread be locked here on out... serves no purpose what so ever.

[jayoplus]

To be completely honest, I would prefer all the announcement threads to be locked as well.

If anyone wants to congratulate anyone, do so in their map thread. This is rather sickening.

[MozI]

To be completely honest, I would prefer all the announcement threads to be locked as well.

If anyone wants to congratulate anyone, do so in their map thread. This is rather sickening.

I agree, things need to cool down or go offline out of public domain into PM's if people have beef with each other.

[evilmrfrank]

I agree, things need to cool down or go offline out of public domain into PM's if people have beef with each other.

That would truly make the world a better place :D

[Brad.G]

i second the last few threads.... bunch of sore losers :)

lock the thread, delete the thread.. ban polls. ban the whingers..

[Distant Land]

i second the last few threads.... bunch of sore losers :)

lock the thread, delete the thread.. ban polls. ban the whingers..

Sore winner? He got at least 4 votes...I think it's pointless to do a recount and it's 3 pages of basically the same thing, instead of any productive discussion, but so what, let him express his idea.


While most play on a server would be a pretty arbitrary judge, I do think that if the community could actually decide, the outcome would be different different. But it's not necessarily a good thing to go for popular opinion...it should be a panel of judges with clear objective goals in mind, but at the very least I would have liked to hear their feedback and justifications for their decisions on maps. It would do a lot more to actually help the mappers who entered develop, winner or no, to hear why each map got what they got, more than decisions passed down from on high.

[ShadeMistress]

To be honest what's being played on public servers the most is usually terrible even looking at gameplay only. :c

OMG thank you, I didn't have to say it...

An example (no disrespect to the creator) is VCTF-AnarchyHalls, it could be a great map, but only 2 levels of Z-axis kills it and forces it to become repetitive, add to that the visuals (honestly pointed out by the author) suck and the ground level is just a big flat thing... yawn-worthy... The idea is solid and with a couple tweaks to the layout, it could easily be one awesome map to play, but it's popularity dropped sharply because of said repetitive matches. Despite all that, it was horribly popular for a long time, and I swear every third match was that map.

Now, back on topic, I don't think a recount would help anything much, and I admit that I was more than a little peeved that a year and a half of hard work on PsychoTropix and a metric ton of custom content barely got an honorable mention, but look how much it gets played: Never.

That pretty much tells me that the good days of large-scale maps for ONS (even if it is WAR now, you would think the Orb would promote large maps even more) are gone.

People want smaller maps that they can jump in and spam out all of their ammo in 10 seconds at their opponents before they get wiped and respawn to do it all over.

People want over the top visual flare, ridiculously overdone bloom, nearly colorless desaturation or over-the-top colorful maps.

It's the current industry standard, bottom line, and if it doesn't fit the mold, it simply won't make it and until the industry takes another turn to another direction, the masses will blindly follow it. Corporations know this and, hence, are why only the most basic maps chock full of little or no custom content make the cut, with few exceptions.

Maps that look and play like Epic's will always win because they fit Epic's standards, so if you want to win you'll have to conform to similar standards and not stray too far from them.

I believe that most of the maps deserve their status (grats guys) with the exception of mayyyybe WAR-Tropico (boggles my brain for real). I don't have a gripe about the map in general, it's gorgeous and the layout showed real promise, but after playing it a few times, there were a lot of bugs and the FPS was worse than some of my own maps (which can be really harsh for some people's rigs) at half the size... Lastly, again, it gets repetitive as there's very little Z-Axis anything and too many meshes get in the way of line-of-sight. At a minimum, there should have been more signs to point you in the right direction, because it was easy for me to get turned around a few times. Finalist, sure I guess, but if it wins 1st I will be dying to know just how the heck that happened, lol.

That said, despite my own loss, I (begrudgingly a bit maybe lol) think the team is doing a good job at judging.

[spacedemonebu]

OMG thank you, I didn't have to say it...

i was wondering when you were going to show up. would you have posted in my topic if i'd used psychotropix as the example instead of marooned? :p

somehow i thought you, me, and cosmix were going to be the top 3 in best warfare. it was almost comical when i saw that none of us even reached the finalists bracket. either creativity isn't really one of the judges concerns or we totally sucked in all the other fields.

[TheVoid34]

The idea is solid and with a couple tweaks to the layout, it could easily be one awesome map to play, but it's popularity dropped sharply because of said repetitive matches. Despite all that, it was horribly popular for a long time, and I swear every third match was that map.

Took this screenshot just a second ago on one of the most popular VCTF servers.
http://www.gametracker.com/server_info/209.190.24.38:7777/

It was also in the same position on UMG back when that server was always full.
I'm not saying AH_SE should have won first prize or anything, but to claim that it isn't popular... still... just isn't the case.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y149/DJMattB241/justnow.jpg


EDIT: Let me also say that, while I agree with the finality of the judges decisions, and it's fine, I'm not exactly losing sleep over it, I can see where some people might be upset. I jumped into MSPaint real quick and threw together an overhead view of one of the honorable mentions. There is ZERO Z-axis play, it is exactly like you see it here. But its pretty. So it got a mention.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y149/DJMattB241/alexandria.jpg

Like I said, no skin off my back, I'm still making maps and having a great time with the community. But I can see why some people might not have liked the decisions. In the first phase, almost all top five winners are maps that are in constant rotation on custom map servers. This time... I can't see more than *maybe* one or two of those top ten being ANY fun on a server with actual humans playing.

[Mandinga]

I don't agree with some of the choices they mae buthey, we arent the ones judging.

[Distant Land]

People want over the top visual flare, ridiculously overdone bloom, nearly colorless desaturation or over-the-top colorful maps.

It's the current industry standard, bottom line, and if it doesn't fit the mold, it simply won't make it and until the industry takes another turn to another direction, the masses will blindly follow it.


Agreed...I've never been sure about blindly following...I think a lot of people like the way this generation of games looks. Heavily sacrificing style and artistic quality for photo-realism and tricks. While gameplay just gets forgotten, when it should be the most important thing in a game. What always bugged me is that people seem to play/examine games like there hasn't been other iterations that may have done things way better. UT99 vs UT3 is a good example. But so much of the quality of a game itself has gone down in the last years, while graphics go up.

[Oldskool0482]

Agreed...I've never been sure about blindly following...I think a lot of people like the way this generation of games looks. Heavily sacrificing style and artistic quality for photo-realism and tricks. While gameplay just gets forgotten, when it should be the most important thing in a game. What always bugged me is that people seem to play/examine games like there hasn't been other iterations that may have done things way better. UT99 vs UT3 is a good example. But so much of the quality of a game itself has gone down in the last years, while graphics go up.

I wish they would focus more on gameplay than looks, a guy can dream a guy can dream. I guess thats just how it is now I'd gladly sacrifice looks if the game could have better gameplay. But ehh thats me.

[bclagge]

I wish people would use more stock content. Then people can focus their time on designing proper gameplay and not so much of their time on creating custom content. The maps would still look great, thanks to the high quality of the stock content.

[Bret Hart]

I wish people would use more stock content. Then people can focus their time on designing proper gameplay and not so much of their time on creating custom content. The maps would still look great, thanks to the high quality of the stock content.
But stock content is still somewhat limited as to what you can do. There's only like 4 themes you can come up with really.

[evilmrfrank]

But stock content is still somewhat limited as to what you can do. There's only like 4 themes you can come up with really.

I disagree :p

[Distant Land]

I wish they would focus more on gameplay than looks, a guy can dream a guy can dream. I guess thats just how it is now I'd gladly sacrifice looks if the game could have better gameplay. But ehh thats me.

I just play the stuff that has good gameplay...so play from every generation, and just accept that games that come out these days aren't really what I'm looking for.


But stock content is still somewhat limited as to what you can do. There's only like 4 themes you can come up with really.

Yes it is limited, but it doesn't mean you can only create a random Asian/city/metal area...Check out DM-Plaza, or WAR-Holywar for good examples. While using the packages in the standard way Epic used them can end up sort of bland, there is no reason for this other than lack of imagination. It's like legos...you can make the picture on the box, and use pieces in a standard way, or you can create something incredible with it. I feel like a lot of the MSUC winners are also those that emulated Epic's style of construction and visuals, which forces you to meander around hallways like a bot in a lot of ways, and constantly feel like you're using a cataract mod because it's so blurry.




People want smaller maps that they can jump in and spam out all of their ammo in 10 seconds at their opponents before they get wiped and respawn to do it all over.

People want over the top visual flare, ridiculously overdone bloom, nearly colorless desaturation or over-the-top colorful maps.



I mostly agree but I don't think people even want color, or they just think they don't because they forgot how games used to look. And it's something that can relate more to the current generation of games as a whole...do people really want what they're getting or is it the fault of developers for training them to accept mediocrity?

[spacedemonebu]

But stock content is still somewhat limited as to what you can do. There's only like 4 themes you can come up with really.

*slaps forehead*

is your first step really to decide on what theme you want to pigeon hole your map into? i always begin with an internal vision and then look across all the packages to find what i can use to accomplish it.

i actually blame the school system for killing your creativity. the students with the best grades are the ones that excel at memorizing and repeating "facts" on command. while the ones that display curiosity, creativity, or question the "facts" they are told get sent to detention. it shouldn't even be about "thinking outside the box", it's about thinking inside your soul. videogame design is an artform, i wish more people realized that.

maybe epic doesn't see a problem with industry stagnation since they are riding high on the success of the gears franchise. but i wonder how they feel about the resistance franchise since, to me they are almost indistinguishable beyond the third person/ first person perspective and the fact that the resistance bad guys have 4 eyes instead of 2.

whenever you want to take gaming to the next level, i'll be here, epic... unless a competitor snaps me up faster (and i will be at the SF GDC)! :p

[Bret Hart]

*slaps forehead*

is your first step really to decide on what theme you want to pigeon hole your map into? i always begin with an internal vision and then look across all the packages to find what i can use to accomplish it.



*Slaps your forehead for you again*

Yes, if you don't have a theme in mind, you just come up with complete mesh-randomness and the map turns into a big fat mess.

[Distant Land]

*Slaps your forehead for you again*

Yes, if you don't have a theme in mind, you just come up with complete mesh-randomness and the map turns into a big fat mess.

Your Imagination has to go beyond environments that aren't Asian/city/spaceship though, right? What do you think of first? And because piece X doesn't snap into piece Y doesn't mean you can't use it...there's so much potential to the editor beyond all that, despite the somewhat limited packages. I always get an idea of atmosphere, and try to build around that, regardless of package. I felt the same thing early on but It sounds like you might be limiting yourself.

[TheVoid34]

artsy douchebag thread is full of artsy douchebags

[Distant Land]

You got anything to contribute? I'm not trying to get personal here

[TheVoid34]

Haha contribute to what? This isn't a discussion. This is serveral people with different subjective opinions trying to convince everyone else that they're right.

I guess that's the internet for you though, huh?

[spacedemonebu]

i guess some people are perfectly content and complacent with the status quo; all an artist is is someone with a greater vision and the drive to manifest it. and so what is the counterpoint? what do you think games are or should be? i've never heard an argument (let alone a well formulated one) in favor of imitation.

[TheVoid34]

what do you think games are or should be?

Fun. Like reading this thread.

[spacedemonebu]

wow, that's not very ambitious...

i agree that games should be fun, but i think they should be fun like nightmares and mystical experiences.

[TheVoid34]

like nightmares and mystical experiences.

Right. Like this thread. That's what I said.

[bclagge]

wow, that's not very ambitious...

i agree that games should be fun, but i think they should be fun like nightmares and mystical experiences.

Agreed, that's how games should be. However, for an online game like UT, gameplay is of vital and foremost importance. If you can make your map a magical experience, great, but if it doesn't have balanced and entertaining gameplay it won't get played online. Some of the most popular vCTF maps are bland, unimaginitive maps, but they play well. Hence, they get played the most. You should make a fun map, and then pretty it up. Not the other way around.

[Madgobbo]

artsy douchebag thread is full of artsy douchebags

Obvious troll is obvious.

[TheVoid34]

Obvious troll is obvious.

Meme repeater is repeating memes.

Haha man.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y149/DJMattB241/forum%20usage/lovethread.jpg

[3leggedFreak]

*Slaps your forehead for you again*

Yes, if you don't have a theme in mind, you just come up with complete mesh-randomness and the map turns into a big fat mess.
What a mapper should do is have a good gameplay idea in mind, else it just turns into a big fat mess. The holistic approach is to start with simple building blocks and cubes to tweak the layout, game flow, item placements etc. Then, when the gameplay is fine tuned, you can start thinking about a theme. From there you can start pretty it up as much as you want as long as you don't affect the play volume set in the block map. If you do it the other way around chances are that you just build unplayable eye candy.

This is oc if you want to build maps that will be enjoyed by players, if you just want to make it look pretty on screenshots or win contests you should start with the theme, build the map and then throw in some pickups to make it pass as a map.

[1337_Sniper]

*slaps forehead*

is your first step really to decide on what theme you want to pigeon hole your map into? i always begin with an internal vision and then look across all the packages to find what i can use to accomplish it.

i actually blame the school system for killing your creativity. the students with the best grades are the ones that excel at memorizing and repeating "facts" on command. while the ones that display curiosity, creativity, or question the "facts" they are told get sent to detention. it shouldn't even be about "thinking outside the box", it's about thinking inside your soul. videogame design is an artform, i wish more people realized that.

maybe epic doesn't see a problem with industry stagnation since they are riding high on the success of the gears franchise. but i wonder how they feel about the resistance franchise since, to me they are almost indistinguishable beyond the third person/ first person perspective and the fact that the resistance bad guys have 4 eyes instead of 2.

whenever you want to take gaming to the next level, i'll be here, epic... unless a competitor snaps me up faster (and i will be at the SF GDC)! :p

You, my kind sir, have hit the nail on the head. It should be about originality, gameplay and then looks.

Although I may not agree with the judges picks, I do agree that they've made a decision and it's final. I can live with it.

[wael]

You, my kind sir, have hit the nail on the head. It should be about originality, gameplay and then looks.

Although I may not agree with the judges picks, I do agree that they've made a decision and it's final. I can live with it.
Originality is not what many here seem to think it is. Originality is not a map with random lighting and gimmicks, originality is knowing is the rules of mapping, abiding by them and going one step further to create something truly memorable.

[bclagge]

I personally think gameplay takes precedence over originality. Most people who play the map won't know whether it's an original idea or not.

[Angel_Mapper]

Originality is not what many here seem to think it is. Originality is not a map with random lighting and gimmicks, originality is knowing is the rules of mapping, abiding by them and going one step further to create something truly memorable.Pff, what rules? Originality is bending the editor and engine in ways that would make Gumby scream. Anything less than that is just crapping out maps.

[MozI]

Pff, what rules? Originality is bending the editor and engine in ways that would make Gumby scream. Anything less than that is just crapping out maps.

I agree, I admit no originality ( maybe a tad with Airlock) but I make maps. Angel Mapper is original, always making cool stuff such as Reconstruct or Phase Shift.

[Sjosz]

Last I heard Gumby was about to take a contract out on Angelmapper... no idea why.

[wael]

Pff, what rules? Originality is bending the editor and engine in ways that would make Gumby scream. Anything less than that is just crapping out maps.
Well by rules im talking about the basic guidelines for good gameplay, your maps work very well on a gameplay level and still implement innovation without breaking those rules. You can't say that there aren't guidelines for good gameplay? Perhaps they're not rules but they are vital too good gameplay, originality is not to break them but to bend them. ****, I'm sounding like a douchebag aren't I?

[Sjosz]

Well by rules im talking about the basic guidelines for good gameplay, your maps work very well on a gameplay level and still implement innovation without breaking those rules. You can't say that there aren't guidelines for good gameplay? Perhaps they're not rules but they are vital too good gameplay, originality is not to break them but to bend them. ****, I'm sounding like a douchebag aren't I?

Nah, the basics are just a given, they don't have much to do with originality though.

[Angel_Mapper]

Well by rules im talking about the basic guidelines for good gameplay, your maps work very well on a gameplay level and still implement innovation without breaking those rules. You can't say that there aren't guidelines for good gameplay? Perhaps they're not rules but they are vital too good gameplay, originality is not to break them but to bend them. ****, I'm sounding like a douchebag aren't I?The only rule is there are no rules. ;) If you let yourself get stuck in the mode of thinking where "I have to do X and Y to make good gameplay" then it's difficult to be original and innovative. If you're just trying to make a good map without regard to innovation or originality, then sure, there are things you have to keep in mind when designing a map for a specific game and a specific gametype.

[wael]

The only rule is there are no rules. ;) If you let yourself get stuck in the mode of thinking where "I have to do X and Y to make good gameplay" then it's difficult to be original and innovative. If you're just trying to make a good map without regard to innovation or originality, then sure, there are things you have to keep in mind when designing a map for a specific game and a specific gametype.
Well awesome that's what I meant. So I guess I was right as usual, good god I'm awesome.
BTW if it isn't clear I'm not being serious.

[spacedemonebu]

i don't think that you can cleanly cut a map into the graphical portion, the gameplay portion, and the originality portion. you can grade a map on those aspects after the fact, but in the end, you're playing in the environment you create. the idea of making a "BSP shell", to me, is unnecessary. if you can imagine cool action in your head, you can make it happen with a lot of forethought and a little trial and error.

"gameplay" is a useless term in this context since it describes an entire microcosm of variables and interactions. the "flow" of a map is something that is quantifiable, "balance" is quantifiable, "diversity" is quantifiable. those are some of the components to gameplay and while i agree with angelmapper that originality and creativity can and should be applied to the gameplay in addition to the setting of the map, those three components are essential to the "gameplay" of any map. they are broad enough terms that they shouldn't limit you in any way, but they are not as general as "gameplay" because they have clear and tangible applications in a map.

also, i think people misunderstand me if they think i'm advocating graphics above gameplay. anyone who knows me knows that i am a gameplay-whore, and when i say that video games are an art form, i am not saying they should be like 3D paintings for you to walk around and observe, the gameplay is the essential aspect of what makes videogames unique from the other art forms and it is certainly included when i talk about games being art.

[Sjosz]

i don't think that you can cleanly cut a map into the graphical portion, the gameplay portion, and the originality portion. you can grade a map on those aspects after the fact, but in the end, you're playing in the environment you create. the idea of making a "BSP shell", to me, is unnecessary. if you can imagine cool action in your head, you can make it happen with a lot of forethought and a little trial and error.

"gameplay" is a useless term in this context since it describes an entire microcosm of variables and interactions. the "flow" of a map is something that is quantifiable, "balance" is quantifiable, "diversity" is quantifiable. those are some of the components to gameplay and while i agree with angelmapper that originality and creativity can and should be applied to the gameplay in addition to the setting of the map, those three components are essential to the "gameplay" of any map. they are broad enough terms that they shouldn't limit you in any way, but they are not as general as "gameplay" because they have clear and tangible applications in a map.

also, i think people misunderstand me if they think i'm advocating graphics above gameplay. anyone who knows me knows that i am a gameplay-whore, and when i say that video games are an art form, i am not saying they should be like 3D paintings for you to walk around and observe, the gameplay is the essential aspect of what makes videogames unique from the other art forms and it is certainly included when i talk about games being art.

Perhaps, but a BSP shell makes both the trial and error and the forethought part of your setup a lot less intense/recurring/problematic.

[spacedemonebu]

i don't know, to me, all i could learn from a BSP shell, i could play out in my 3D imagination. i'd rather see how things will really work and then fine tune them. the other part is that i'm primarily interested in terrains and it's so easy to just drop the meshes i actually want to use right into the level.

[Daze]

Something people seem to forget when it comes to contests like this is that if the graphics are not up to a commercially viable standard, it doesn't matter how good the gameplay of a map might be. NOT meaning the prettiest map should win, but the best of the pretty maps should.

Oh and, gimmicks =! good gameplay. Really.

[ZzyzX]

I would like to take a moment to remind the community this:

Unreal Tournament, as a series, has always stood out from other games because of the gameplay; strictly and only the gameplay. For the select group of hardcore PC gamers that have stuck with Epic Games and the series since before 1999, there is nothing fun about playing a console game like Halo where movement is in virtual slow-motion, health recharges upon covering from fire, and jumping is like you're on the freaking Moon. Unreal Tournament has never been one of the most popular games because the level of competition is absolutley off the charts in comparison to other games. It takes a good deal of time, patience, and practice to obtain the skills nessicary to play on a competitive level.

Void's map, AnarchyHalls, was somehow brought into this conversation; bitterly, and in a quite unnessicary fashion. I will agree that just because it is still one of the most popular vCTF maps on several of the servers hosting custom maps, does not mean it holds great gameplay. However, it most certainly does.

AnarchyHalls is great in that it is incredibly balanced. You are given all the weapons when you start except for the AVRiL, but there is scarcly more than a pack of ammo or two for each weapon if you need more. The Scorpion, Manta, and Raptor all even themselves out. Void has put air-control on the lift-jumps, incorporating tricky flag running into the game. Impact Hammer jumps are incredibly useful and totally vary, especially in the new version AnarchyHalls_UTF. And if you think that the entire map is a spam-fest, you have not any of the better players sniping you out of the air on lift-jumps, shock dueling you the roof, and wreaking havoc on your base with an amped Sniper Rifle. The map has been gameplay-tested down to the bone. Unlike several of the "pretty" maps that have won, AnarchyHalls has been cleansed of bugs and glitches; a problem many UT3 maps have to bear. Mantas that are glitched onto the roof instantly explode, and people attempting to spawn-camp are vaporized completely. If you still think that AnarchyHalls is a complete spam-fest, then you obviously haven't played it with a 4 on 4 or 3 on 3. Those who attempt spam will die by the instant-hit weapons of the better players.

With this in mind, we can conclude that AnarchyHalls does not, in fact, suck.

I hope this community can realise why gameplay is so core to UT3. One of the the biggests reason that UT3 is so deadened by lack of players is that the gameplay has shrunken to a lower level. The Translocator is in real need of improvement, and would help bring back CTF. The iGib rifle is laggy, and needs improvement. There are countless glitches in all of the stock maps and in the entire game that need rework. I could go on and on, but it wouldn't do anything.

I guess the point of my rambling's is that UT3 will forever remain unpopular until people and Epic decide to put the gameplay above the graphics. But complaining about the map-winning decisions and spitting venom at other map-makers who are trying to keep this community alive won't do anything positive for anybody here, and I think it would be best if people would stop complaining over what cannot be changed. The judges have made their decisions, and though I amongst many other fellow gamers and clan-mates disagree in whole with many of the winning decisions, there is nothing I and they can do except hope and advise the map-makers, who have been working so hard, to keep the gameplay in check in order to keep their and our community in check.

[Mr Evil]

...Unreal Tournament, as a series, has always stood out from other games because of the gameplay; strictly and only the gameplay...
I will disagree with that. Two of the reasons Unreal gained so much attention were the gorgeous graphics and the fantastic setting. UT applied both those elements to multiplayer and added a huge variety of themes for the maps, and it was the combination that made it popular.

[wael]

****, wrong thread.

[TheVoid34]

haha what the hell

[spacedemonebu]

zzyzx, your points about the gameplay are entirely valid, but so are mrevil's points about setting.

UT99 rocked because of the weapons; no other western game had such creative weapons (flak, bio rifle, 6 rockets) or weapons that could be used in such interesting ways (shock combo, guided redeemer, ripper).

however, those weapons would have been wasted if UT had been set in locations like "generic dungeon of tunnels" instead of settings like hyperblast, morpheus, and phobos.

i think the primary ways that UT3's gameplay has suffered is that there is no survivability anymore; the game is too fatalistic. and this isn't coming from a softcore noob, i rocked at UT99 and i actually do pretty well at UT3, i just feel battles are too short. minor scrapes cost you the majority of your health, you can't jump worth crap, and killing infantry while in any vehicle is disgracefully easy.

getting a monster kill in UT99 was a matter of being skilled with the weapons and finding enough enemies in a short period of time. if i was lucky, i might get one or two per round while playing against adept bots. but i've not yet earned a monster kill in UT3 without using a vehicle or redeemer. it's simply because if you get in any kind of shootout, there is no way to escape taking massive damage from this new generation of weapons.

[Cosmix]

Why you guys always have problems when it come to a discussion? Sure the opinions differ! This is a contest! Omg...
It's absurd that the community gets broken because of some controversy. Nobody here want to debase anyones work or person. Don't be so sensible! :)

As I have said before in another post I have no answer for some results by the judges too. But a recount? I can't agree to you [H3D]Pendragon. Steve Polge offer those entries that got a H.M. or above some feedback. I'm curious about that. Maybe they have argumets for their choices. Let's see.

[wael]

haha what the hell
That was a somewhat stupid mistake, I posted in the wrong thread.

[Beastenator]

Agreed...I've never been sure about blindly following...I think a lot of people like the way this generation of games looks. Heavily sacrificing style and artistic quality for photo-realism and tricks. While gameplay just gets forgotten, when it should be the most important thing in a game. What always bugged me is that people seem to play/examine games like there hasn't been other iterations that may have done things way better. UT99 vs UT3 is a good example. But so much of the quality of a game itself has gone down in the last years, while graphics go up.

Amen.

/offtopic. I built up my own list of necessities for a vctf map, I hope epic uses a guideline like this to vote on the MSU maps:
- No camp possibilities what so EVER
- No spawncamping either.
- An easy accesible avril near the base.

[MozI]

No offense to anyone but...seriously people, get over it, move on.... it's a contest. I am sure everyone has something else to do than whine and argue on this topic all day.

It's really sad how something beneficial for the community such as MSUC turns into an online fist fight.... :(

[spacedemonebu]

are people even arguing about the contest anymore? i haven't really been paying attention

[SmokeRingHalo]

zzyzx,
no other western game had such creative weapons (flak, bio rifle, 6 rockets) or weapons that could be used in such interesting ways (shock combo, guided redeemer, ripper).


I'll disagree. Turok: Dinosaur Hunter & Turok: Seeds of Evil had the most creative weapons and still hold that title today imo. Of course neither of those games had online play though and in that respect, UT99 would wear the crown.

[WGH]

Oops, I voted 'yes' because it would be great to play these map online. But I don't want any recount.

[Distant Land]

I'll disagree. Turok: Dinosaur Hunter & Turok: Seeds of Evil had the most creative weapons

Like what? Just curious

[spacedemonebu]

not that i know many of the weapons in turok, but you have to keep in mind the important part of judging a weapon's creativity is how it functions between when it leaves the barrel and when it hits the target; not the silly death that occurs after you shoot a poison arrow/cranial bore/etc into someone.

[SmokeRingHalo]

Like what? Just curious

Every weapon in Turok: DH was a marvel for its time but the ones that stand out in my mind would be the alien blaster, quad rocket launcher, and the fusion cannon. Turok:SoE had the cerebral bore, razor wind, and the flamethrower was spectacular to behold. Turok was known for its weapon and enemy animations and although dated now, they were cutting edge for their time. Not many games weapon sets have wowed me like the first two in the turok series & both were very difficult games to beat.

[Xyx]

You cannot judge a map by only its online popularity. Wouldn't surprise me if most people don't even play online.

And what if the Best Map Evar(TM) was found to have one really obscure crippling exploit that could easily be fixed? If mappers are punished for taking risks by trying extra-cool stuff, they'd all just play safe and we'd all just get a bunch of generic Deck/Rankin clones.


I miss the old days when the community was united and kicked ass.
I fear those days exist only in our nostalgic memories...


If you're not happy with the results of the contest, fine. Keep it to yourself.
Feedback is feedback. And in this case it's somewhat constructive... at least moreso than "teh judges sux". If someone didn't like your work, wouldn't you be interested to know why?


Pendragon;25906337']it would only judge game play, not how well the map looks.
Not that I play online, but if I did I'd refuse to play anything that looks like I could have done better.


what's being played on public servers the most is usually terrible even looking at gameplay only.
I agree, but... why is it played the most? What are we missing?


People want smaller maps that they can jump in and spam out all of their ammo in 10 seconds at their opponents before they get wiped and respawn to do it all over.

People want over the top visual flare, ridiculously overdone bloom, nearly colorless desaturation or over-the-top colorful maps.
And I bet that even if you got together a mapper team of your choice and made a map just like that, its popularity would still not be guaranteed.

There is something more evasive at work, I think, something that has less to do with the actual map and more with the server hosting the map.


http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y149/DJMattB241/alexandria.jpg
An overhead of CTF-Face wouldn't look good either, but to my mind it is still the best thing that happened to FPS level design evar.


i've never heard an argument (let alone a well formulated one) in favor of imitation.
If it works, don't fix it? I know what you mean, but it's not as if people thing "hey, I'll be different and design a map without Z-axis, in overbloomed black and white, where the flags are right next to eachother".

Or maybe someone would. I'm sure I've seen black and white maps, and there was that King of the Hill 1-on-1 CTF map for UT2004... It'd certainly be different.


You should make a fun map, and then pretty it up. Not the other way around.
Quite so. There's just one tiny problem; you're not likely to get a lot of beta feedback until after you pretty it up. Chicken and the egg...


if you can imagine cool action in your head, you can make it happen with a lot of forethought and a little trial and error.
I made many vehicle prototypes to test out crazy ideas. Many ideas that looked absolutely fantastic on paper turned out not so great in practice.


gameplay is the essential aspect of what makes videogames unique from the other art forms
Yeah, the interaction. Even a physics demo application can have cool "gameplay".

[Distant Land]

Every weapon in Turok: DH was a marvel for its time but the ones that stand out in my mind would be the alien blaster, quad rocket launcher, and the fusion cannon. Turok:SoE had the cerebral bore, razor wind, and the flamethrower was spectacular to behold. Turok was known for its weapon and enemy animations and although dated now, they were cutting edge for their time. Not many games weapon sets have wowed me like the first two in the turok series & both were very difficult games to beat.


What did they do though, besides the visual effects..what did the projectiles do once fired, how did they effect the enemy?

[evilmrfrank]

There was a lovely drill weapon that you'd shoot and it would slowly drill into the guys head while blood and brains were spraying out and the guy was screaming :D Not sure if thats in the turok your talking about but it was in a lot of the older ones from what I remember :D Definitely left a lovely impression on my 12-14 year old mind :D

[spacedemonebu]

you have to keep in mind the important part of judging a weapon's creativity is how it functions between when it leaves the barrel and when it hits the target; not the silly death that occurs after you shoot a poison arrow/cranial bore/etc into someone.

otherwise it is called gimmicky, not creative

[Distant Land]

There was some Xbox game where you could slam your weapon into the ground, hang onto it, the whole world would turn upside down, and all the enemies would fall off...wish I played that one or could remember the name. I like what FPS's can offer, they just haven't.

[Angel_Mapper]

There was some Xbox game where you could slam your weapon into the ground, hang onto it, the whole world would turn upside down, and all the enemies would fall off...wish I played that one or could remember the name. I like what FPS's can offer, they just haven't.That is all kinds of awesome.

[Distant Land]

Yea...also had land sharks. Armed & Dangerous, that was the name...one of the last original games by Lucasarts

[Xyx]

I love weird/gimmicky/original weapons, but Armed & Dangerous just didn't do it for me. I bought it based solely on the descriptions of the weapons on the back of the box, but I only played it for a few hours and would probably not buy the sequel, if any.

[Mr Evil]

otherwise it is called gimmicky, not creative
You're concentrating on what's probably the least important part of what makes a weapon fun to use.

[Distant Land]

That's the most important part...What the weapon actual does decides how you have to fire it, aim or control it, the actual gameplay...the rest is just the death animation attached to it at the far end, which is just a gimmick if nothing else is really behind it...the enemies die either way, but a basic hitscan point-and-shoot 'realistic' gun turns an FPS into the most basic turret-style gameplay you can get, whether or not it has an interesting animation.

There were tons of creative things UT99 brought on board, weapons that had familiar modes, but totally new extras and functions...the 6-rocket launcher that actually covered an area, shock combos, the redeemer, the ripper? Also the settings and premise...that it was a tournament and you rose through the ranks, and had crazy arenas and powerups. FPS's really have trouble getting away from cookie cutter stuff that came a long long time ago.

Most shooters don't go beyond the basic Doom weapon set...you've got a melee, pistol, shotgun, rapid fire gun, grenade launcher, rocket launcher, etc. Devs seem to fill in FPS features like madlibs, they decide the genre, then decide their iterations of all the basics, then some little gimmick that will decide what it's called. Games that have done different are few and far between, and usually another FPS has innovated and done your idea better before...it's a stagnant genre that's come to rely on gimmicks and graphics because so many make the gameplay really more fun. I think it's because they constrain it to human movement and physics too much, and in most cases, to gritty realism too much...you could do incredible games in first person, and they have, but you get the idea.

[Mr Evil]

That's the most important part...What the weapon actual does decides how you have to fire it, aim or control it, the actual gameplay...the rest is just the death animation attached to it at the far end, which is just a gimmick if nothing else is really behind it...the enemies die either way, but a basic hitscan point-and-shoot 'realistic' gun turns an FPS into the most basic turret-style gameplay you can get...
You press the trigger, the enemy dies. It might take a longer or shorter time, or you might have to press the buttons in a particular way, but basically anything beyond that is just a gimmick.

The creativity lies in how the weapon feels when you use it. For instance, take your basic instant-hit weapon like the ever-popular Railgun. It's nothing special in terms of mechanics, but people love it because of the powerful sound, the swirly effect, and the satisfaction of seeing your enemy explode.

[Distant Land]

What the weapon does decides what you have to do...your movement, where you aim, how you have to predict the enemies movement...how you have to interact with the game, which is gameplay. There's more to it than projectile speed, it's just in UT3 everything happens to move forward pretty quick and direct. Even getting a nice arcing shot is satisfying, but something like the ripper has more to it, or a shock combo where you're not really aiming at the enemy.

The feel you describe as a combination of the animation at both ends, the sound effect, and the damage, are all part of a weapons creativity, but it's the actual action of the projectile that makes the weapon what it is, and decides how you use it. A railgun is still just a sniper rifle...

[spacedemonebu]

You press the trigger, the enemy dies. It might take a longer or shorter time, or you might have to press the buttons in a particular way, but basically anything beyond that is just a gimmick.

heh, i hoped that we had somehow misunderstood each other, but no, it looks like you actually meant that nonsense.

distant land laid it out fairly well, but i'd like to add to it. the flak cannon fires medium range spread of flak shards that bounce off walls. this is what makes the flak cannon good in short range, enclosed environments. you can bank shots off walls, kill people around corners, and just generally have a greater chance of your flak shards hitting the enemies because they rebound around.

if the target is a little longer range than the shards are useful for, you can try lobbing a flak grenade at them. this requires ceiling clearance and a good sense of the trajectory. you may not have realized it, but the player must aim in completely different ways depending on which firing mode they use - and that is just one weapon.

you can't use rockets like grenades, you can't use the avril like the enforcers, you can't use the bio rifle like the sniper rifle. it's all because of how the projectile functions; it's got nothing to do with the visual effects, sound effects, etc... that may help you pick your favorite weapon, but the flak cannon would still be good in short range, enclosed environments even if the flak shards were blue and it made a boi-oi-oi-oi-oing sound when it fired.

[Mr Evil]

What the weapon does decides what you have to do...your movement, where you aim, how you have to predict the enemies movement...how you have to interact with the game, which is gameplay...
That's all just details. You time things a little differently, or aim differently, but it's all the same motions in the end.



...A railgun is still just a sniper rifle...
Exactly. There's a functionally identical weapon in virtually every FPS, and yet the railgun is unique. Instagib in UT wouldn't have been half as popular if the railgun *cough* I mean super shock rifle was a souped-up sniper rifle instead of a souped-up ASMD.

Or consider the Bio-rifle. I've seen that described as one of the most innovative weapons around when it first appeared, but it is essentially just a sticky grenade launcher, albeit with rather small grenades. It's the fact that it has been designed to look like it fires toxic sludge that makes it so fun to use.

[bclagge]

How the weapon functions from barrel to target is essentially the definition of how the weapon will be used in game. I don't know why you would dismiss the function of weapons so peremptorily. UT exemplifies this point. Flak, rocket launcher and redeemer are three great examples of the creativity of weapons beyond just spam and hitscan.

However, I agree that the "gimmickery" of weapons is vital to whether or not it's fun to use. The animations and AV effects can be very creative, and again UT is the perfect example.

Comparing the creativity of function to effects is like comparing jazz to cubism. Personally I would weigh them equally if I were scoring a weapon on creativity.

[Mr Evil]

...I don't know why you would dismiss the function of weapons so peremptorily...
I'm not dismissing the function, as you said, it's what determines how the weapon fits into the game. I'm responding to spacedemonebu's statement that it's what is most important when judging a weapon. It's not, because it is not the most important factor in what makes a weapon fun, and fun is what counts in the end.

[Distant Land]

Your idea of fun here is subjective...if you judge all your weapons based on how much you like them, then animation and sound and feel gets all tossed it. Here's the main point though...all the weapon is at its core is damage from point A to target B (not point); what the weapon does on its way , and how it inflicts damage IS the weapon...everything else is secondary

The movements are not all the same in the end, except when it's simple like that basic 9 weapon set, and even then so much depends on how interesting the level is. The bio rifle as an example was a great weapon...less so in UT3 but in UT99 I you could cover an area really well...like lining off doorway with just a blob. When the weapon functions differently you move differently...I can think of tons of examples of unique weapons that cause unique movements or playstyles in first person shooters but you have to understand the main importance of that...do you realize why the gameplay is so key?

[spacedemonebu]

this was brought up specifically talking about the creativity of weapons, not just judging them. it doesn't matter how many different ways you can dress up an overpowered hitscan weapon, you still use it the same way, therefore it is not creative.

i agreed with zzyzx that gameplay was important to the success of UT99 and i agreed with you that the settings of the UT99 levels were also important to its success.

but now you're saying that the graphical effects of the weapons were more important than how they fired? maybe that was why you didn't think UT99's gameplay mattered?

[Xyx]

Heh, those standpoints are almost polar opposites. I think you're all right.

Take, for instance, Call of Duty's weapons. These are some of the dullest guns in FPS history in terms of functionality. They vary in looks, accuracy, damage, fire rate, magazine capacity and reload time, but that's about it. Functionally speaking, that is. With the exception of grenade launchers, each and every one of them boils down to "move crosshair over enemy and press fire". There are no tricks, no bank shots, no prediction... just some bullets. Yet they have awesome feel to them. Their sounds, the fluidity of the reload animations, the subtle variations in usage and the incredible level of polish make them shine.

Or consider Turok. I never had the pleasure of firing the cranial bore myself, but I gather it's teh shiz. And apparently not because it breaks free from the standard "move crosshair over target and press fire", but because of the visuals.

Why do people argue over the sniper and lightning gun? That debate has been around since 2003. The only substantial functional difference is that it's easier to spot someone sniping with the lightning gun. The new sniper has a tracer that is almost as easy to spot, and still people want the lightning gun back. Such a strong preference cannot be explained through functionality. It must have something to do with the feel, meaning the visuals and the sound.

But yes, I'll take the Ripper, Flak and the "sticky grenade launcher" over the minigun/stinger/sniper/lightning gun/enforcer any day.

[Sanch3z]

in 2k4 was the code for the LG and sniper the EXACT same other than the tracer/beam template, sounds, mesh, etc? I mean as far as all the aiming, reload, ROF parameters? The "feel" of the weapon stuff. I always felt and still do that the LG is slightly easier to use as far as aiming and hitting your target. In UT3 LG I lowered the aimerror parameter so I know its a tad easier ;)

[Xyx]

Lightning gun had 70 damage (140 headshot) at 0.7 fire rate, sniper had 60 damage (120 headshot) at 0.6 fire rate. I don't believe they had any other functional differences. So not the EXACT same but the difference is not significant enough to explain the allegedly vast differences in "feel".

[evilmrfrank]

I like the LG gun over the sniper, When I first started playing UT2003 I didn't like the LG but after a while I liked it over the sniper rifle. I just like it cause it's unique :D

[spacedemonebu]

xyx, another game that has developed a great sense of feel for strictly ballistic (no fancy energy weapons or whatever) is the hitman series. particularly hitman contracts and hitman bloodmoney. but the nature of those games is quite different from UT3. it's much slower paced, stealth plays a major role in the AI response, and you can mod the hoohah out of each weapon (or get separate variations). the differences become more detectable in this context, as they do in COD.

i don't mean to discount the artistry of graphical effects or sound effects, because those are important (like how in UT99, you could get an idea of whether or not you were going to get caught in the kill range of a redeemer explosion if you were familiar enough with them). but i want to reiterate that the original comments were just speaking about weapon creativity. and in that regard i still maintain that what makes a weapon is how it is used, and only secondarily, what it looks like.

it's actually kind of funny, because none of these subjects can really be separated. a level's gameplay and it's setting are intrinsically linked, as are a weapon's functionality and what it looks like. but it is interesting hearing how people analyze and rank these facets individually.

[Xyx]

the differences become more detectable in this context, as they do in COD.
Absolutely. Place CoD's weapons in UT and they all become "a gun".


the original comments were just speaking about weapon creativity. and in that regard i still maintain that what makes a weapon is how it is used, and only secondarily, what it looks like.
I try to follow the "form follows function" approach when modding, meaning I prefer to define functionality before spending too much time on appearance. Where some level designers restrict themselves to CSG while testing the gameplay their maps, I restrict myself to re-using Epic's vehicle models while testing the gameplay of vehicle prototypes. A slight problem with this approach is, however, that people are more likely to provide feedback on something that looks good. Chicken and egg.

Some people prefer the direct opposite; think of something that'll look cool, then try to come up with features.

[spacedemonebu]

Some people prefer the direct opposite; think of something that'll look cool, then try to come up with features.

ideally, what you think looks cool, is also fun to play. i try to make those things as simultaneous as possible. i start by thinking of specific settings that have the kind of complexity that can provide a variety of encounters (angles, elevations, ranges, etc).

even if people do make a BSP shell first, they probably didn't think up the level as having "a checkerboard rectangle running across a gap"; they probably knew that was going to be a bridge of some sort and enough ideas like that and you can develop a profile of the kind of setting that would host such features.

[JonathanA]

I didn't make the cut and I'm not bitter about it. There were a lot of good candidates that had some really good stuff. Not getting placed only inspires me to work harder :).

[[H3D]Pendragon]

OMFG, holly cow people took me way too seriously with this post. I wasn't actually demanding a recount, I typed this a month ago while laughing, I was more or less poking fun at us, the complainers and myself. It was meant as more of a joke, than anything.

While I was not saying that my maps were better, or deserved anything, their were many great entries, maybe mine sucked, who knows..
The only point I was trying to make is that out of some of the ones that did get mentioned, or "won" there were some selected that had major bugs. I was shocked that maps that had KNOWN issues were selected.

Anywho, it was poking fun at the method in which they were selected. Just a joke guys.

Sorry if I offended anyone.

[TheVoid34]

Pendragon, you should know by now that video games are VERY SERIOUS BUSINESS.

[SmokeRingHalo]

Or consider Turok. I never had the pleasure of firing the cranial bore myself, but I gather it's teh shiz. And apparently not because it breaks free from the standard "move crosshair over target and press fire", but because of the visuals.

It was the "shiz" as you put it but it was a lock on, fire and forget weapon. Most Turok weapons weren't hitscan or fire and forget though. One of the best was the shredder from Turok 2. Fired a beam like the shock rifke (only stronger feel) that scattered into ricocheting flak when it struck walls.




Why do people argue over the sniper and lightning gun? That debate has been around since 2003. The only substantial functional difference is that it's easier to spot someone sniping with the lightning gun. The new sniper has a tracer that is almost as easy to spot, and still people want the lightning gun back. Such a strong preference cannot be explained through functionality. It must have something to do with the feel, meaning the visuals and the sound.


Not much of a sniper type myself , so it never mattered to me but I do remember Epic catching great hell over the lightning gun until they put the sniper rifle back in the 2k4 game. Now they want the lightning gun back in?
Seems some people will always be stuck on the last version they've played and never move forward.

[bazzwano]

I have a Q: it prob doesnt belong in this thread :p but I didnt wana make a new one. I dont want it to turn into a rant. more a question of others opinions.

I would really like my next level to do well under the best graphics category.. epic are yet to provide any feedback regarding this.. and the public feedback is not as personal as I would like it to be.

Im confused how to get a level to do well in best graphics, DM-Worm is a great looking level for example but the level is tiny and has no BSP, no kismet events and contains only 500 meshes of detail but these were made by the mapper. CT-Dreay3 is a larger level, took a long time to make, and has 9000 meshes of detail, has lightning etc.. what does one have to do to better these tiny DM maps that have a just few good looking meshes..

Im so confused. I guess my maps too stranded and not interesting ... at least i think thats why I didnt get a placing

I just wana know how people think these levels are judged to help me map better.. what was Dreay missing in the graphics section that these maps had and I can work on this for my next one..

Steam temple had lots of moving parts
worm looks good and is all custom
etc etc

[Nurb]

Well, I can only speculate, but I think the judges are looking for environments that stand out of the crowd and have memorable graphics that makes people viewing the screenshots immediately recognize what level they are looking at. From what I can see in the screenshots, your maps seem extremely well executed, but they all have the industrial/technology theme that has sadly become quite standard in UT3. I think it's fully possible to work with this theme though, but there needs to be a twist, something contrasting, extreme and/or eyecatching that separates your map from others using the same theme.

This is all guesswork but I can assume there is -some- truth in it atleast. Your maps do look great.

Regarding the feedback, I think they bunched it up into general feedback threads as a compromise between not having time to give feedback at all and giving individual feedback to hundreds of people.

[Angel_Mapper]

If people look at a picture of your map and go "Holy shi-", you've got a great looking map. If they go "that looks great!", they're trying to be nice.

[Steve Polge]

For the best graphics category, original content (custom meshes, etc.) is one of the things we look for.

[bazzwano]

Well, I can only speculate, but I think the judges are looking for environments that stand out of the crowd and have memorable graphics that makes people viewing the screenshots immediately recognize what level they are looking at. From what I can see in the screenshots, your maps seem extremely well executed, but they all have the industrial/technology theme that has sadly become quite standard in UT3. I think it's fully possible to work with this theme though, but there needs to be a twist, something contrasting, extreme and/or eyecatching that separates your map from others using the same theme.

This is all guesswork but I can assume there is -some- truth in it atleast. Your maps do look great.

Regarding the feedback, I think they bunched it up into general feedback threads as a compromise between not having time to give feedback at all and giving individual feedback to hundreds of people.

Thanks for the post, yeh I agree, so thats what Im trying to do with my next map, im using the tech and industrial theme In what I think is a new and diferent way, and Im trying to add things that are diferent as well as providing that same level of polish and detail that I did in my previous maps


For the best graphics category, original content (custom meshes, etc.) is one of the things we look for.

"one" of the things, so ill asume not all is lost if I dont have custom meshes. Its not somthing Iv ever tought myself but I would like to. if enyone reading this has any beginer tutorials for making meshes and mats for UT i would be interested in have a look.

This "blender" program is freeware so i may give that a go after this map.. tuts and a link to the export plug in would be great

thanks everyone.

[neoduck]

Bazza, take a look at Tropico for example- it really stands out amongst the other levels in the crowd. this crazy, lush level saturated with natural colours.

if you look closely, there aren't that many custom meshes at all in it! I modified most of the (stock) materials to fit in exactly with what i needed. I did work hard on the meshes that i made, and they're of a pretty good quality, but i'm no expert with this ****. I borrowed some of them from UT2004 (modified them etc.) but i made sure i put a lot of polish into the assets that i did make specificly for the level.

(btw- a bit of a hint here... you know those vine meshes you see eeeeverywhere in UT3 maps? yeah, i'm sick of it but don't want to make my own from scratch... so i exported the diffuse texture for that into photoshop and used it as a template for a new texture for the mesh. i just made sure the leaves were in the right places for the UV. worked an absolute charm! the vine mesh looks original, and i didn't have to mess around with modeling or UVs for it.)

your levels are of high visual quality, but sometimes (don't take this personally) it can look a bit copy+paste, simply because we've all seen the theme before.

I've got a suggestion for you- WATER!

it's one of my personal little tricks... water makes everything look awesome, and there are so many cool visual tricks you can do with water.

Imagine this (even inside a tech level... how different would that be from normal, hey?)

a big cracked pipe is gushing water from the roof of a room, flowing down some stairs, hitting the ground, and then flowing into the next room and then flooding the floor of a room... i did that in my map august, and it looks pretty sweet =) i have water in all my levels.

cool little "events" in a level like that tell a story with the environment, and really do work to impress people.

put a lot of thought in all of the "extra" things you can do in each scene... be that water, wild plants in funny places, broken things (don't be afraid to throw some **** off-grid =), etc.. get creative.

good luck

[bazzwano]

I've got a suggestion for you- WATER!

it's one of my personal little tricks... water makes everything look awesome, and there are so many cool visual tricks you can do with water.

Imagine this (even inside a tech level... how different would that be from normal, hey?)

cool little "events" in a level like that tell a story with the environment, and really do work to impress people.

good luck

Hahah thanks for that.. but guess what :) I already got water in my map.. hehe its one of a few things Im trying to do differently.. my map is two big towers but due to a leak the lower levels of the building are fooded. altough the player cannot go to these lower levels the lowest level the player can go to has the leak. so yeh.. iv considerd water :)

and yeah Im trying to add events to make things more intersting.. it very hard comming up with ideas for this

but your exactly right.. I just need to do somthing diferent with that wow factor..

Thanks man

[Angel_Mapper]

As another example, look at DM-Tydal in CBP2v2 for UT2004. iirc Rich just modified the color of a few textures in Photoshop to turn them red, and it gave the map a refreshing new look with stock content.

[bazzwano]

I liked that map :) hmm thats also what spoondog did.

[Distant Land]

Come up with a strong vision, a place that's interesting to be in, and try to get the right atmosphere through lighting and whatever else...that'll go farther than your poly or mesh count or any of that.

[Cr4zy]

You don't always need Photoshop. The material editor can work wonders for recolouring.

[neoduck]

You don't always need Photoshop. The material editor can work wonders for recolouring.

yeah, i mainly used the material editor to make changes to the stock stuff. It's very powerful, and i don't think enough people take full advantage of it!

[Angel_Mapper]

You don't always need Photoshop. The material editor can work wonders for recolouring.Well yeah, I was referring to that specific map in 2k4. Some of the stuff in Prometheus is just color modified stock textures, like the monitors with the team members on them.

[SmokeRingHalo]

This "blender" program is freeware so i may give that a go after this map.. tuts and a link to the export plug in would be great



Blender is more powerful than my little tried & true milkshape program but it's interface is ridiculously complex and counter intuitive imo. If you ever find an undo function in blender please let me know. (I'm serious)

[bazzwano]

I love complex :D no undo though, that's going to suck. can you point me to this plugin that people need to export into UE?

[Nurb]

There is also a Maya PLE (Personal Learning Editon) and probabaly something similiar for MAX. The latter is prefered because exporting is much smoother to the engine from 3ds. Personally I'm a maya man cause the interface feels alot more intuitive, but I guess it's just that I'm used to it.

[bazzwano]

does that need any plugins? I actually have the PLE of that already.. I tried following this tutorial.. but my version didn't seem to work as the tutorial said it would :-s

do you know of any tutorials that would be handy? modling? texturing?

[Nurb]

For maya you want the actorX plugin.

[bazzwano]

im sure I could find a modeling tutorial on the internet but what do you do to geat a seamless material on to the mesh..? how do you do that

[jayoplus]

That's when the model is unwrapped and textured.

[nthexwn]

Oh cool, it's Pendragon!


"
[02:50] <PENDRAGON> and there is NO WAY you can go 30 to 0 on me without cheating
[02:50] <+stryfe`> go to your dos prompt
[02:50] <+stryfe`> and type
[02:50] <[op]nthexwn> deltree
[02:50] <+stryfe`> ping ut1v1.ribhosting.com
[02:50] <PENDRAGON> I will have to approve the cheat free servers
[02:50] <+stryfe`> and tell me your ping
[02:50] <+stryfe`> before you go in
[02:50] <+stryfe`> cheat free SERVER
[02:50] <PENDRAGON> (no way u can do that w/0 cheating)
[02:50] <+stryfe`> servers dont activate cheats
[02:50] <+stryfe`> .,
[02:50] <+stryfe`> ,
[02:50] <brett``> lmfao
[02:50] <+stryfe`> i cant deal with this
[02:50] <+stryfe`> anymore
[02:50] <+stryfe`> its not even worth it at this point
[02:50] <PENDRAGON> no I mean servers that have cheat block on the firewalls
[02:50] <+stryfe`> holy ****
[02:50] <+stryfe`> ........
[02:50] <+stryfe`> ........
[02:50] <+stryfe`> holy ****
[02:50] <+stryfe`> holy ****
[02:50] <+stryfe`> ;lkmew,m
[02:50] <PENDRAGON> and again not now
[02:50] <brett``> lmao
[02:50] <+stryfe`> now you are just
[02:51] <+stryfe`> stringing computer words together
[02:51] <PENDRAGON> hell it's 5:51 AM my time
[02:51] <+stryfe`> that doesnt even make sense
[02:51] <+stryfe`> yeah its 551 am here too
[02:51] <+stryfe`> get busy
[02:51] <PENDRAGON> erm
[02:51] <brett``> PENDRAGON I HAVE LOST FAITH NI YOUR DRAGONLY SKILLS
[02:51] <+stryfe`> gonna give you a mustache ride
[02:51] <PENDRAGON> I believe ur the one that is challenging me
[02:51] <DrOhm> it isnt possible to block a port that has to be open for the game to function >.>
[02:51] <+stryfe`> sure
[02:51] <+stryfe`> are you coming or not
[02:51] <PENDRAGON> nah
[02:51] <+stryfe`> if you are EST then you will ping the same as me
[02:51] <PENDRAGON> stateful inspection firewalls
[02:52] <+stryfe`> .....................
[02:52] <PENDRAGON> that filter out the cheats
[02:52] <+stryfe`> THE ****
[02:52] <+stryfe`> ARE YOU
[02:52] <+stryfe`> SAYING
[02:52] <[op]nthexwn> roflmao
[02:52] <brett``> LMAO
[02:52] <|wm|WhiteTigerzZz13> there is no such thing =/
[02:52] <+stryfe`> im dyijng
[02:52] <PENDRAGON> the worst player can get 1 kill against the best player in a 30 frag match
[02:52] <[op]nthexwn> this guy's gotta be a troll
[02:52] <PENDRAGON> when cheating is quelched
[02:52] <+stryfe`> rofollo
[02:52] <+stryfe`> QUELCHED
[02:52] <+stryfe`> .g quelched
[02:52] <@ABot> Google: 04,01‡14 http://wordnavigator.com/word/quelched/ 1404,01‡
[02:52] <PENDRAGON> laff all u want
[02:52] <[op]nthexwn> it's too perfect
[02:52] <PENDRAGON> I do know
[02:52] <S|R-Eden> so
[02:52] <DrOhm> err, no, not even a stateful inspection would catch that, because for it to work at all it would have to match identically to a legit packet
[02:52] * Atai (ataianand@Atai.user) has joined #ut3tdm
[02:52] <S|R-Eden> is this ****in DUEL gona happen or not
[02:52] <brett``> RECONFIGURE THE MAINFRAIME FIREWALL AND QUELCH THE CHEAT CONFIGURATION IP SERVER LIST
"


Good times. Good times. ;)