New Single Player Beta: Nergal

[Thaur]

This is a follow up to my previous SP map locust park: http://www.gearsofwar-pc.net/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=26.html

Download:
http://dodownload.filefront.com/9586986//da41e82ffac3e80940c617e989ba6cd5c39c203a027d2051f9 a6212d2e73c86dc2756201373b95ec

Includes two map files, a and b. It is intended to be one map but I am having trouble combining them.

http://static3.filefront.com/images/personal/t/Thaur/126928/mwgjtaxkbz.jpg

http://static3.filefront.com/images/personal/t/Thaur/126928/hallprnqcx.jpg

http://static3.filefront.com/images/personal/t/Thaur/126928/vzbtsclmsp.jpg

http://static3.filefront.com/images/personal/t/Thaur/126928/gwpxazynrf.jpg

http://static3.filefront.com/images/personal/t/Thaur/126928/mpxcnqkrle.jpg

http://static3.filefront.com/images/personal/t/Thaur/126928/uacohbluho.jpg

Not yet implemented:
-Working cover for destructible objects (chairs etc)
-Cover nodes in the book room (not essential)
-Light source for hole in ceiling first room

Known issues I could use help with:
-On part B, you get stuck on invisible walls in certain spots. If you wiggle around you can break free, but it is annoying. I only have one hypothesis, that it is because of the flat pieces of rock I used as flooring in certain areas of the caves. If this is indeed the problem, I can try removing the collision from the static meshes and put in a big blocking volume for the floor. Take a look and give me your thoughts please! When in collision viewing mode nothing looks wrong.

-This is a single map but is broken in half. I wanted to do it that way to save myself rebuild times, but now that I am ready to combine them I can't get it to work. I try copying and pasting everything from one into the other, and that works, but when I try to rebuild it always freezes, never finishing. I did get it to work once a while ago but never since. Rebuilding light maps seems to be the main problem, it's what takes the longest. Ideas please!

I have tried using a highly modular design process to speed up development time. It has worked very well. Most Rooms are from SP-HOS SP-Tomb and MP-Sanctuary.

[Zeyta]

It looks good, the only thing I hate is when people copy and paste stuff out of existing map (like the last screenshot, you copied the whole room from the second tomb map, it seems. and where the red-lit hole is, that whole room is copied from the second seeder on Act 1. In other words, it seems you just compiled a bunch of rooms from different maps and stuffed it together.)

[Kronos]

Not everyone has time or the ability to create custom content. Almost every stock Gears map has content from another stock map.

How would you also know if he copy pasted it from another map, perhaps he just located the package it was in, and placed it in his map(not that theres much difference in doing that). Essentially everyone who does not have custom content in there map has objects copied from other maps, you cant provent that unless I suppose you had no meshes or textures in your map.

Neither of these rooms look to have been copied directly from Act 1, they have resemblence to it though I suppose.

The map looks great, I'll download it and give it a try when I get time.

[Core2TOM]

you just compiled a bunch of rooms from different maps and stuffed it togetherthats right, just play it and you dont believe your eyes^^ (i know every ways and rooms!)
better copy some whole rooms from campaign levels and "convert" them to multiplayer levels...
there are much cool maps they would be great in versus fights!

[Zeyta]

You don't have time to create custom content? If you're playing this game you have time, and no, I'm wrong, copying and pasting is the way to become successful and will get you a job in level design in the future. Also, I'm not talking about the static meshes or anything, I'm talking about using static meshes and what not to make maps.

Yes, i'm pretty sure the rooms I'm talking about are exact, but they don't lead to the same spots, they just connect to different copied rooms. I don't have total photographic memory, but come now.

[MASTER DAMAGE]

How the hell do you guys know for sure that he copied them. It may look the same, but I dont see anyone opening the maps up to see if it is for sure copied. Give him a break, mapping isnt as easy as it seems. Kronos none of what I said applies to you, I've seen your work, so I cant really ***** about you. Anyways good work. It would be awesome to connect all 3 maps into one campaign level. Good Job!

[Thaur]

Yes, Zeyta, you create all of your meshes from scratch in a 3d program? You skin and texture them all yourself? While you're at it you should create your own game since you are just copying and pasting gears content, but I think it will take you few hundred years to get all that work done by yourself. If you're at all familiar with the history of game design and level design you will know it has gone from one person doing everything to a huge division of labor. There are people that just specialize in lighting maps and that is their job. If I mislead you into thinking I was trying to claim credit for things I hadn't done I am sorry but your hostility is unwarranted otherwise.

For example, the days of creating a map with all custom BSP are over for the most part. It's neither practical nor does it look good anymore. I used to do it back in the first unreal and UT, but It does get old spending months and months on a small single map. Modern mapping is about modularity. Static meshes. Copying and pasting. Whether it be on the level of copying a map brick by brick or room by room, you are still copying and pasting. While some originality is lost, we gain performance, cohesion, good looks and time. The maps are stored in this fashion, room by room so you can easily copy and paste individual rooms. I forgot about mentioning this because I seriously never thought it would be an issue. I never meant to mislead anyone, I thought it was obvious. I have updated the original post with info.

Navigating through dozens of packages to find just the right doorway, column or wall and piecing each room together from scratch is not appealing to me at the moment. When I become more familiar with the packages and I have some unique design ideas I will do it more but the game is still very new and we are all still learning the editor. For me it does not bring enjoyment to waste hours cobbling individual rooms together. Instead I get to focus on other stuff, like level design, lighting, music and sound, special effects and scripted events like battles. It's obvious different people enjoy different aspects of the game design process. Some like coding, some like modeling, some like different aspects of level design. I used to hate the idea of static meshes and modular design but I have come to experiment with it and embrace it with this map.

I have spent many hours and lost lots of sleep putting this together. I would spend more but I have to spend the majority of my time at school, work, with my girlfriend and friends. But thanks for reminding me, I forgot I was going to mention to everyone my modular approach to building this map. I suggest some of you guys try it. Each single player map is divided into various rooms and hallways. You can choose a theme you are going after and go through all of the maps, writing down exactly what each one has. When you are ready to design your map, you have the majority of the required building blocks. When you need to create an area with a unique identity to differentiate your map, you make it from scratch, but what is the point of reinventing the wheel if you already know you can do it? If you're a beginner it's good practice, but if you've been doing level design for over ten years you're just wasting your time making a bland hallway from scratch. The same goes for cover nodes. Once you learn everything about them, there is no point in not duplicating them. The time I have spent working on this map I have learned many valuable things, things I would have otherwise not learned if I was slaving away making 100% original rooms. Time management is key in any industry. Know your strengths, know your weaknesses, don't rely too much on crutches, yes. I know these things, there is no need to try to teach me, but thank you anyways.

We are here to help each other out and all become better in the process. Experimentation with different methods is crucial in order for growth. The more methods we uncover, the more great maps we will have in the future.

And to the rest of you, thank you for your time, I am very interested in your feedback and really hope you are enjoying the map as much as I intended!

[Shadow Dancer]

There's a difference between using existing static meshes and just rippiing out entire rooms, BSP and all.
The shots are too dark for me to make any determination from here, but it sounds like what the complaint is is that entire rooms were yanked out and dropped in with little or no actual work on the part of the designer, which is almost plagiarism if he doesn't give credit.
Again, I can't tell from here, but I think that's what the issue is.

[Thaur]

There's a difference between using existing static meshes and just rippiing out entire rooms, BSP and all.
The shots are too dark for me to make any determination from here, but it sounds like what the complaint is is that entire rooms were yanked out and dropped in with little or no actual work on the part of the designer, which is almost plagiarism if he doesn't give credit.
Again, I can't tell from here, but I think that's what the issue is.

Hahaha, plagiarism isn't an issue here. Especially "almost plagiarism" lol what is that? I'm extremely ignorant of the legal process but I'm sure you don't take anyone to court for "almost murdering someone" or "almost plagiarism." You are being silly. None of you own "your" maps. They are all derivative works of Epic and Microsoft game studios. Go ahead, try copyrighting them, see what happens. As far as I know, they own everything you make with their assets. They may even own everything you make with unreal ed unless you have licensed it and/or have used 100% custom content. This is just a guess, someone correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just going by what I have heard in the past with other games. Citing them for credit is redundant, although I have even gone and done so to clear up any confusion if you pay attention.

How about instead of making speculation you actually go PLAY the maps and see if you enjoy them. That's what this is about, playing a map and enjoying it. Some of you need to be reminded of that evidently.

As for hardly any work? Hah. Let's see you create something of this scope with "hardly" any work and then you can get back to us. If you're diligent I'll look forward to hearing from you in a few weeks.

Sigh. This is a thread about beta testing, can we get back on track please? I can't say this has been a waste of time because it has been educational, but from this point on you will be wasting my time if you aren't replying about the beta test itself. If you want, feel free to contact me with your E-lawyers and threaten me with your E-lawsuits but keep them out of this thread lol.

[Kronos]

Ya I'd hate to see a thread based on a map be closed for consecutive argueing, I think your map looks good so far and I hope to see more from it in the final version.

Shadow didnt seem to mean you any harm, as he did state that it was rather hard to tell whether you copied that specific room from act 1 with the seeder or not because it was rather dark.

This is not to say that it was a bad idea if you did. Because copying one room to me doesnt seem like a serious issue considering it came from a single player map rather then a multiplayer map, but I wouldnt recommend you do it throughout.


copy some whole rooms from campaign levels and "convert" them to multiplayer levels...
there are much cool maps they would be great in versus fights!

Actually that doesnt sound like that bad of an idea lol.


which is almost plagiarism if he doesn't give credit.

Most mappers in general credit Epic regardless.

[Thaur]

so... are there any bugs you have found? Do you have any ideas of the major problems I have asked about? Anything you especially like or dislike? I already addressed your points in my post.

[Kronos]

That maps played out nicely, except I did happen to get lost in the caves for a few seconds mainly because of how dark it is.

You might want to add an overall brightness to your level by applying a skylight(which is really just an ambient light, who knows why epic calls it a skylight) to your level with maybe a brightness value of .2 or so, even pitch black in the real world isnt perfectly dark.

Another thing you could use in your level is some post processing to give it an overall color theme, if you've noticed the blood spraying out of the locust from your bullets is extremely colorful, and bright. Some post processing would really clean that up and give it a more Gears feel to it.

I did run into a few collision issues when running around in the caves, mostly along the ground just as you said. You could probably fix this by adding a small rock mesh as a boost to get over those hard to see collisions. I wouldnt recommend a blocking volume or you might just lose the rock footstep sounds of the ground, unless you can somehow apply a physical material to a blocking volume which I doubt thats possible.

Lastly I think your maps could really use some streaming so the user doesnt have to reopen the console to load the second level, but instead just walk to the end of the first one, and appear in the second one.

Anyway gameplay wise the map was great, you did a good job with kismet, and I wish ya the best of luck on the final build.

[Thaur]

Yes my main problem is with connecting the two maps. If you know how to stream them or otherwise connect them please let me know, I do not intend them to be separate maps.

I tried the map on my friend's computer and it looked way too dark on his, and he even said his monitor was bright. Does everyone think it is too dark?

Does anyone think the green and red lighting is too ugly? I am going to also try a version with more conservative orange/yellow+blue lighting instead of the red+green. I wanted something different than the usual blue+yellow combination that is so common though.

[Taffer]

I'm not bashing you for copy-pasting, but my problem is the fact that it almost sounds like you're being condescending towards those that do not copy-paste. You may not enjoy what others deem nothing more than creativity, but I wouldn't call it a "waste" either way.

Back on track here, I do feel like you have improved your maps from the last one you released. I do agree with what everyone else has said in that it needs to be much brighter though. That would also help in making the lightbeams look more realistic. The surroundings of the lightbeams are far too dark, making them look really unrealistic and artificial. In the fourth screenshot it is very easy to tell that the room is being lit from a light you put in the middle of the room and not from the windows. Even people that have never touched the editor will catch on to this.

[Zackiz]

To stream, load up your first map in the editor. Open the generic browser and choose the "level"-tab. Import the other map. Add a trigger/tiggerzone/or-what-ever to your level and bring it into kismet using touch(you can of course use the other options too but you get the point). Add kismet something like this: http://harteex.kicks-ass.net/~emil/gow/stream.JPG

Warning though, loading the levels into the P level crashes my editor 3/4 times, dunno why. The first map in this case will be your xxx_P map.


Edit: I'm downloading now, will tell more later.

[Thaur]

Thanks, can you tell me anything about the proper naming convention for the map Level/Level Name in kismet?

[Kronos]

Does anyone think the green and red lighting is too ugly? I am going to also try a version with more conservative orange/yellow+blue lighting instead of the red+green. I wanted something different than the usual blue+yellow combination that is so common though.

Well I wouldnt suggest you change the color of your lights, if you use a post processing volume to cover your level you can tweak the color of your map with Scene Effect. You might or might not be aware of this, but since I didnt see it in your map I thought I should share it, as it'll greatly improve the atmosphere of your level.

Heres a shot I took of your level without any sort of color correction from a post processing volume. As you can see the blood and even the enviorment is fairly colorful which isnt something really suited for a game like Gears.
http://xs124.xs.to/xs124/08066/cc2881.png

Heres the same shot but after adjusting the color correction through post processing(I used the world settings instead of a volume just to get to the point, I'd recommend u use a volume to cover your level though). As you can see the blood and the enviorment look much less colorful, and alot more mean or gruesome much better fit for Gears.
http://xs124.xs.to/xs124/08066/cc1901.png

You'll see many different color themes from post processing volumes in stock Gears maps, a good example would be the difference from MP_Mantion to MP_TyroStation. Mantion happens to have a more greenish color to it(not because of its lights but because of its post processing) while Tyro has more of a brownish color to it.

These are the settings I used in the second shot with post processing, im sure you'd want pick out your own set of colors but heres what I used for an example.
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8089/cc3so9.jpg

You could actually split your map up into many different volumes with there own seperate color themes, so as you walk into one room from another it'll fade in color.


Yes my main problem is with connecting the two maps. If you know how to stream them or otherwise connect them please let me know, I do not intend them to be separate maps.

Hourences has a great tutorial on level streaming.
http://www.hourences.com/book/tutorialsue3streaming.htm

[Zackiz]

Im not claiming that I know the exact rules(i don't think there are any, these are more guidelines), this is what I use when I stream.

_P is for the masterlevel. Most important to put scripting details(EVERYTHING that has something to do with kismet) here, tiggerzones, playerstarts, interpactors, bla bla. That means that not even a room is required in this level, although it's handy ;)

_background is for skydome, big badass backdrop buildings, etc.

_1 first level, _2 second level, etc.



Edit: Just to clarify one thing. You can't use this structure if you wanna use checkpoints. Since that requires a somewhat different approach, this structure is for "smaller" type of map. The benefit I found with the model I explained over is that it's easy to work with and drastically reduses rebuildtimes.

[Thaur]

Wow thank you both! I was just talking today to my friend, we both had no idea how post processing works, I have to try this now!

[NewPCGamer]

the level looks great. i know how long it takes to build completly custom areas, and it can be a pain in the a s s. I will dl on sunday. keep up the good work. it looks solid.

[Zeyta]

My apologies for the arguing. Anyway, I've been away for a bit, and I would like to adress that, no, I don't make my own static meshes, but at least I try. What I'm trying to say is, when making custom content, even if it's just using existing static meshes and what not, you should at least try to make something custom. The mapping background I come from, you can't just copy-paste things or that sort of thing.

My "copy and pasting" isn't the same as yours. Think of the Level designers for Gears. They didn't have anything to copy and paste, they had no reference. This is why I don't copy and paste whole buildings or rooms or levels. You apparently don't want to move any further with your level design skills, because you'll eventually run out of rooms, this is what you're saying, anyway. Now, I know I'm stupid when I'm saying all of this, it's just, that I want a career with this shizz some day, and I can't just be... well, you know. I'm sorry for arguing and whatever, and however you choose to do custom content is your choice and there is no reason why I should try to justify your way of doing it as "wrong" or "bad".

So, my apologies.

[Thaur]

I understand where you are coming from, thank you. My next map will have no copy and pasted rooms, I am even going to have some custom BSP. This is a new community so we aren't familiar with each other and each other's skills. You saying I apparently don't want to move any further with my level design skills is BS however. I know at least some of the areas I need improvement in. I am concentrating on learning the new features of Unreal ed 3, spending the majority of my time doing that is more productive for my self improvement than fiddling around with cubes and placing and rotating columns and stuff like that. I have said that I have designed completely custom content in the past and that it takes a long time. I have also said this is an experiment and you can take from that that it means I don't plan to do this on every map from now on. If you have played my previous map you can tell how much custom content there is because the main thing is a completely custom terrain with added static meshes.

When I actually started designing levels on the computer was with warcraft 2 back in 1995 or so. After that it moved to age of empires and starcraft. From there I went to the original Unreal, Tribes 2 and UT. I made some efforts in wacraft 3 and ut2004, as you will see from my webpage they are mainly just terrains because that game bored the hell out of me. I am familiar with making everything myself back when all we had was basically BSP. Back in the original unreal from 98 I had experience making tables, chairs, light fixtures, houses and all that stuff from scratch. It usually didn't turn out too awesome but I have tried it and I am likely to do it again at some point. I had some success with the 2d editor in ut2004 making some neat futuristic rooms and hallways.

I wish I had been consistent with my map making for the last 10 years, I would be awesome by now, but I have not been. It's okay though because I have been doing other important things. Check out my website gallery and tell me what you think.

Also, did you ever play the maps???? I need feedback!

[NewPCGamer]

just got done trying to play this and i have a few things that annyed me a lot. First of all like others have stated, its just WAYY to dark in some areas. especially the caves. Try putting immulsion puddles or lakes around so you have a reason for the caves to be lit. I ended up having to go into the editor and had to look at the map in the unlit mode just so i could find my way. Also I got caught up on the cave floors a lot and it was extremely annoying. And one more thing was in the first encounter, i must have missed an enemy and kept walking which caused the music score to keep playing. so when i got to the next encounter, 2 scores were playing at the same time. it got obnoxious.
overall it definetly needs some improvements, but its not bad.
Questions
1. Did you do the caves by yourself, or did you c/p them from an exhisting map? Jw cause they are pretty good.
2. Just out of curiosity, what parts were copy pasted?
thanks and good job.

[NewPCGamer]

Also is there any way for us to know when the level is over? if not, you should add one.

[Thaur]

I did the caves myself. I took the meshes from one of the SP cave levels and use two or three consistently for the walls, then i used one consistently for the walls and columns.

all of the non cave rooms are modified versions of rooms from the sp or mp maps.

Have any good ideas how to tell the player it is over? When you do a text message with the Q-look option it has a bunch of asidj% Blah Blah 73asd% extra crap text

[NewPCGamer]

the level i made has a decent yet simple ending to it. you can check it out its called "Rubble". just look in the kismet.