Yet Another GrendelKeep ReHash -- DM-MooKeep

[biovore]

Final Release of DM-MooKeep for DM and TDM (and maybe TAM) game types.

ScreenShots:
http://www.texnolyze.us/UT3/MooKeep-1.jpg
--
http://www.texnolyze.us/UT3/MooKeep-2.jpg
--
http://www.texnolyze.us/UT3/MooKeep-3.jpg
--

Download from here: (-- Busted Version--)
http://www.texnolyze.us/UT3/DM-MooKeep.zip

** EDIT **
Working Complete Version:
http://www.texnolyze.us/UT3/DM-MooKeep-final14.zip (http://www.texnolyze.us/UT3/DM-MooKeep-final1.zip)

Please note this map dosn't work well in single player mode because I didn't setup any bot pathing in this map. Design for TDM multiplayer.




Have fun, and let the spam be with you.

-- BioVorE

[FragTastic]

Thank you for this map, it looks great. Unfortunately I started it and it immediately crashed with the message lighting needs to be rebuilt :( Maybe needs a re-upload?

[AnubanUT2]

Looks great but I am concerned with what the above poster has said. Can you please make sure that your level is indeed okay and not causing any crashing because it does look like it will be a lot of fun to play. Thanks. :)

[Seven_Force]

Anuban,

You must check these foums every hour! lol, I am too, the stock maps were pretty bad overall (except maybe CTF stuff) and there are WAY too many stock Warfare/VCTF maps. Since you're obviously playing the whole day, you wanna 1v1 or something to pass some time?

You'd have to host since my hosting is bugged now due to the official patch. Send a friend invite on UT3 to Seven_Force_80. I have all the good full releases from here, I'm sure you do as well.

To TC, please fix whatever issue there is and I'll give your map a try.

[FragTastic]

Anyone else give the download a go? maybe i just got a bad d/l?

[LordStrider]

Nope it is bad. I got the lighting error and it locked up my computer. The mapname and author are also still balnk.

BioVore you are close to making a much better rendition of GrendelKeep than anyone else.

My personal preference would be to drop the high tech building scenery.....it is so cliche and move it closer to what we all enjoyed in DM-DE-GrendelKeep. Put a good sky mesh up top and do some texture alignment and rebuild the lighting.

BTW what is up with MooKeep? Kind of a odd name. ;)

[biovore]

hmm.. maybe need a repost..
I'll recook and see whats up..

[AnubanUT2]

Nope it is bad. I got the lighting error and it locked up my computer. The mapname and author are also still balnk.

BioVore you are close to making a much better rendition of GrendelKeep than anyone else.

My personal preference would be to drop the high tech building scenery.....it is so cliche and move it closer to what we all enjoyed in DM-DE-GrendelKeep. Put a good sky mesh up top and do some texture alignment and rebuild the lighting.

BTW what is up with MooKeep? Kind of a odd name. ;)

Well can the rest of us see the level first please before any changes are made. I like the fact the map is a bit different and not an exact remake ... it keeps things fresh imo. Hope the issue gets resolved because I sure want to play this level.

@Seven_Force - Yep I am a UT junkie :D plus I like being around to be helpful, As far as playing online ... nah I suck to hard at this version of UT3 and I don't want to make a fool out of myself by getting owned by someone who is way better than me. Now if you were just an average (and I mean average player sure but I bet you play bots on adept or higher and for this UT that is out of my league). Otherwise I would probably have fun playing you ... if we were each getting some kills. Somehow though I think you are trying to set me up man. :D

[biovore]

Not sure what happend, must have grabbed the wrong file.
Anyway here (hopefully) is a cooked version with all the BSP lighting intacked

Download from here:
http://www.texnolyze.us/UT3/DM-MooKeep.zip

[AnubanUT2]

Thanks man ... this is turning out to be a cool afternoon ... got some cool new maps to check out ... I love UT and I appreciate you level designers enormously. :)

[LordStrider]

Well can the rest of us see the level first please before any changes are made. I like the fact the map is a bit different and not an exact remake ... it keeps things fresh imo. Hope the issue gets resolved because I sure want to play this level.


Nothing wrong with fresh, nor is there anything wrong with variations in remakes. In fact I've seen some very good remakes lately.

But taking a map like GrendelKeep which is a map set in a specific environment and putting high tech buildings in it is kind of counter design-ish.

That would be like taking TheDeck map and putting a farm yard scene around it. In fact I have said before all the Deck maps have had good variations and variety in them. Each new rendition has been fresh, yet they still retain the environment.

You can have fresh and variety, but many of the best level designers have said try to use elements that look like they belong in your environment.

To quote CliffyB:

"At any given point in development a designer needs to be able to step back, look at his work and think, "Does this make sense?" More often than not he’ll discover little details that make no sense, such as structurally impossible architecture that seems out of place or ice beasts near lava pits. The users may not notice these details on the conscious level but will sure feel it on a subconscious level which will affect his overall game experience negatively."

To quote Hourences:

"Like everything else, architecture must have a good sense of unity and connectivity.....Stick to a style, theme and the same feel of detail at all times."

Just my humble comment. I think sometimes people try to use things to fill up space, yet don't take into account "why they put them there".

[biovore]

Well after I reposted I noticed the unreal editor seems to have added a bocking volume on the bridge.. Dosn't show in the unreal editor nor dose it show in the in editor players..

Tring to figure that out.. untill then.. this map probaby won't fly..

[AnubanUT2]

That would be like taking TheDeck map and putting a farm yard scene around it. In fact I have said before all the Deck maps have had good variations and variety in them. Each new rendition has been fresh, yet they still retain the environment.

Just my humble comment.

Actually once again we disagree. In fact my favorite Deck remake is actually a totally different take on deck on you almost wouldn't recognize it if you really didn't know the layout. It is called Deck2004 and it is really an amazing map. I think it just depends on the execution and again the overall feel ... unless you are doing a 100% remake and that is what you say you are setting out to do ... otherwise I don't see any problem at all in being imaginative with an old classic and adding new variations to it. Just my opinion but I have seen it work ... at least for me.

[AnubanUT2]

Well after I reposted I noticed the unreal editor seems to have added a bocking volume on the bridge.. Dosn't show in the unreal editor nor dose it show in the in editor players..

Tring to figure that out.. untill then.. this map probaby won't fly..

Bummer I was just about to play this map ... well keep us posted and as soon as you get a version that is playable I'll definitely download it and give it a spin. Again thanks for your work.

[FragTastic]

Well after I reposted I noticed the unreal editor seems to have added a bocking volume on the bridge.. Dosn't show in the unreal editor nor dose it show in the in editor players..

Tring to figure that out.. untill then.. this map probaby won't fly..

LMAOOOOOOOO yerh i d/l ed again before i read 2nd page. However on a brighter note if there is ever a UT3 moonwalking competition I think I'm in with a good chance :P

[LordStrider]

Actually once again we disagree. In fact my favorite Deck remake is actually a totally different take on deck on you almost wouldn't recognize it if you really didn't know the layout. It is called Deck2004 and it is really an amazing map. I think it just depends on the execution and again the overall feel ...


No actually you just said EXACTLY what I said. It depends on the execution and overall feel. I've played TheDeck2004 and I do agree it is a good map.

The Deck2004 author kept the overall feel of everything within a certain perspective. You don't see modern buildings, nor are you floating around in space looking down on planets. Everything fits.

I've seen the other remake of GrendelKeep and honestly feel it should not have been named DM-GrendelKeep, but something like DM-GrendelSpaceKeep or something like that. What the author did there was certainly unique and I think the map was fine, but just should of been named different so people did not expect "GrendelKeep" only to get "SpaceKeep".

There was a Egyptian remake of DM-Rankin called DM-RankinEgypt. I also think that was a good 2004 remake, but that author also stuck with the Egyptian theme and the execution and feel worked.

My only comment on this map is that at a subconscious level for me the buildings look out of places in the setting that this map is taking. Even trees or another backdrop would seem more natural.

Biovore, I think this variation is perfectly fine and the fact that it is named "MooKeep" certainly would raise the expectation that it is not an original remake and by all means you certainly have the leeway to be creative in your design. I agree with the others that your creation will be a good thing for the community.

I'm not telling anyone how to design their level, but I'm just offering a comment that I thought it odd to see hightech buildings in this environment. But that is just me.

In fact being it is named "MooKeep", maybe a farm backdrop with some cows may be a good setting. :) (just kidding)

[FragTastic]

hopefully things are moo-ving towards a playable map lol

[AnubanUT2]

^^ Yeah man ... I am really stocked about playing this map. I'd hate to see it scrapped now.

[MrCobra]

The tech meshes doesn't fit with the map.

Badly misaligned textures and missing in a few places.

That purple bridge thing just looks wrong.

The scale of some things is way off.

Meshes appearing to be against walls but not actually touching any. The arches over the two tunnels are an example.

Shimmering effects on meshes where they touch each other.

Next time you run a map through the map converter, at least delete the zoning brushes first. They do nothing in the new engine.

Thanks for the effort though.

[Super-Moose]

Random barrels cluttering up the place + railings on the walkways = thanks but no thanks.

[biovore]

Been busy over the holidays. But I think I have got a working map comming.
Maybe by the end of today.. If your all are well behaved ut3 players :D

[WilliamM]

Looks like a nice map, but please get rid of the railing on the walkways indeed !

[FragTastic]

Thanks for keeping us posted biovore :)

[AnubanUT2]

Been busy over the holidays. But I think I have got a working map comming.
Maybe by the end of today.. If your all are well behavd ut3 players :D

That would be nice ... I was playing the UT2K3 and UT2K4 version last night but then I had stuff to do and didn't get a chance to play this one right after so things are really fresh in my mind like I wanted to ... so once the new version comes out I will make sure I do that. Thanks.

[FragTastic]

Maybe by the end of today.. If your all are well behaved ut3 players :D. <--- Theres a water pistol with holy water mut.? lol. I pwomise to only shoot da bad bots :P

[AnubanUT2]

Not sure what happend, must have grabbed the wrong file.
Anyway here (hopefully) is a cooked version with all the BSP lighting intacked

Download from here:
http://www.texnolyze.us/UT3/DM-MooKeep.zip

I finally got a chance to play this version and what is cool is that I had just played DM-Grendlekeep in Ut2K3 so many things are fresh in my mind. First off this is a really well done and solid spin on Grendle ... I liked the scale and size ... that felt perfect and the flow was really good except for the one area that I never liked in Grendle and was hoping you had addressed in your map (the UDamage area ... never liked it being a dead end and not created so that you can grab it and then immediately jump down and start fragging and it would have been cool if I could go through that window ... like it was one of those zone things in Diemos instead of an actual hard barrier).

Okay some things I didn't really feel comfortable about:

- Heavy green fog ... I think it was a bit too overdone ... maybe consider toning it down some or just losing it altogether.

- Lots of metal mixed in with the brick ... well that is a design choice but I do like the all brick look of the original Grendlekeep. Somehow all that metal fused in with the brick just doesn't look right but then again this is a different interpretation and it isn't ugly but it doesn't have that Grendle feel I have grown accustomed to.

- Wrong texture for the barrels ... yeah pretty much that says it all. The barrels look too "bumpy" for lack of a better expression. Also there are too many barrels ... consider scaling the number down but keep some to definitely add to the atmosphere ... same for the crates, there seems to be an overabundance of them but I do recognize (and appreciate) how somehave been worked in to the gameplay.

- Too much depth of field/blur effect on the buildings in the skybox ... they just look blurry and really ugly for the most part yet they are not far away. Consider toning that down greatly or better yet lose it. The brick wall where the chest plate is suffers from a mistake made with this effect ... as you are coming down the corridor on the top part towards the opening where the buildings can be seen and the plexiglass bridge is you can see this blurry wall very easily on your left side (where the chest armor is ... look up and to the left right below the blurry buildings).

- Please lose the glass bridge ... imo it just doesn't work in this level and really looks out of place ... same with the are where the biorifle is ... maybe that should have behind old rusty bars that open by going up instead of the modern portal that opens up (that ambient sounds for that closing are a little too loud imo). Again I realize the portal is another attempt at the mix of old brick and new technological advances so if you keep it it is not that huge of an issue ...

- Overall lighting is good but the map could be just a bit darker ... it seems pretty bright. And I see that you have removed the rain which is fine and doesn't impact this level in any negative way, but it does set a different mood altogether ... if that was what you intended fine ... personally though I like the light rain since it was pervasive ... just in the open areas of the level. Again this is more of a how close to the original do I want this too feel.

- Bots never ever go for the Udamage ... can you fix this so the match is more interesting?

In closing I have to say overall the map is a very good one and really close to being a great level. You definitely have put your own unique touches on Grendlekeep and it is cool that your name reflects just how different they are (by not being called Grendelkeep3 or some other twist on the name) so that is why I can see you tossing aside some of my comments. But I do think this level would greatly benefit from making some changes. Most importantly though I had still had great fun on this level with 5 bots and it runs really smoothly. Thanks for providing us with another solid level to play on. :)

[Chief-Justice]

What is the actual version number now??

And the link under EDITED is broken!

[Al]

http://www.texnolyze.us/UT3/MooKeep-final1.zip

I love the map! Well done! On my server :)

[AnubanUT2]

:eek::eek: Oh man ... that is so NOT cool to leave out bot pathing and screw over us offline players ... come on man ... maps for UT are not complete if they don't have bot pathing ... do you know how many people are going to be totally disappointed by this news? If I had known that there was no way I would have wasted all that time playing it and being critical to help make it a better overall map. Please reconsider and make a real final map and don't forget there are a huge number of us folks who don't play online ... if you don't plan of having any bot support please say so up front in the future. Darn it. I am not a happy camper ... bummer but oh well ... it leaves the door open for someone to make a remake that has bot support so we offline players can have fun as well. This is UT folks ... bot support on all maps that are posted here and released to the entire community is expected. Why exclude some members of the community ... I know people would not like it if Epic did this ... Arrrggghhh ....

*rant over*

[AnubanUT2]

Can you get someone to help you with the bot pathing? There are a lot of good mappers in the community who would probably be willing to do it for you if you let them ... at least that way everyone who owns UT3 could enjoy this level.:confused:

[Al]

Agreed. I'd like to see bot pathing also.

[Chief-Justice]

I found 3 very bad things I've got to talk about.

The first thing is the positioning of the Body Armor.
In the original Grendelkeep the Body Armor was located upstairs and that had a reason because in this version now you can get from the Body Armor to the Shield Belt (and the other way round) in about 4 seconds! :eek:
That is so out of any discussion in my eyes! :cool:

Second and third are closely related:
It's about the stairs in the middle (well, basically its about all stairs). Because you are doing these real steps up, you just cant aim properly running along those stairs. That was different in Grendelkeep.
The other thing is that you can easily get stuck on the inner sides of the stairs. It's like running against a brick which is lying on the ground.

Oh and I think I got another thing to mention about the map now, you guys might not know it but there was a VERY VERY famous edition of Grendelkeep called Grendelkeep-RE. It was basically a repositioning of certain weapons, in particular the Sniper Rifle was moved from upstairs all the way down to the Link Gun under the little stairs below the Amp. And upstairs the Minigun was located which improved the gameplay a lot for TDM matches. ;)

[woooo]

Great lighting with 100+fps wow where as epic maps i averagely get 30 fps on max.

But the map feels like the gravity has be altered, is this true ? feels wierd-not quite fond of it.

[AnubanUT2]

I found 3 very bad things I've got to talk about.

The first thing is the positioning of the Body Armor.
In the original Grendelkeep the Body Armor was located upstairs and that had a reason because in this version now you can get from the Body Armor to the Shield Belt (and the other way round) in about 4 seconds! :eek:
That is so out of any discussion in my eyes! :cool:

Second and third are closely related:
It's about the stairs in the middle (well, basically its about all stairs). Because you are doing these real steps up, you just cant aim properly running along those stairs. That was different in Grendelkeep.
The other thing is that you can easily get stuck on the inner sides of the stairs. It's like running against a brick which is lying on the ground.

Oh and I think I got another thing to mention about the map now, you guys might not know it but there was a VERY VERY famous edition of Grendelkeep called Grendelkeep-RE. It was basically a repositioning of certain weapons, in particular the Sniper Rifle was moved from upstairs all the way down to the Link Gun under the little stairs below the Amp. And upstairs the Minigun was located which improved the gameplay a lot for TDM matches. ;)

You totally missed the point didn't you? This is not a remake like Dm-Codex is man ... the name is completely different ... there is no Grendel in the title so this is not a remake which is why I commented the way I did a few posts back. If the level was called Grendelkeep3 or redux or something along those lines you might have a valid point (I say might because when it comes down to it the level designer has the final say over how he wants the level to be remembered) but in this case you don't have a valid point because this is not a strict remake. Which is why I want the botpathing ... it is different enough that someone else could do a proper remake and yet familiar as well so that those of us who have played the originals will have something to compare it against in terms of running the level.

[Chief-Justice]

Well....I got the point that this make is called differently and I do like the ideas of all these windows for instance.

But the armor placement is (in my eyes) just stupid, the map is big enough to place the Body Armor up on the blue path. Otherwise he could have put the Armor also in the main hall..its the same :D

Oh and by the way: I didnt ask him to change it (unlike in the Codex thread), I just stated my opinion on the map. ;)

[AnubanUT2]

Well....I got the point that this make is called differently and I do like the ideas of all these windows for instance.

But the armor placement is (in my eyes) just stupid, the map is big enough to place the Body Armor up on the blue path. Otherwise he could have put the Armor also in the main hall..its the same :D

Oh and by the way: I didnt ask him to change it (unlike in the Codex thread), I just stated my opinion on the map. ;)


This is true ... and yes I had many suggestions/observations as well ... but one of mine was that the blue plexi-glass should go ... I don't think it fits in well with the rest of the level. Opinions are fine ... as you see I have plenty of them myself and so maybe I came across a bit more harsh than I intended ... sorry about that. Anyway without bot pathing I don't care about this map so really I should not have commented on your observations.