Should dodges be allowed to be bound to single keystrokes?

[Taleweaver]

As the thread title says: should it be allowed for players to press a single key to dodge?

With cross-gaming platform coming our ways, we WILL see more players using a gamepad than any previous UT-game (to the keyboard+mouse preachers: we heard you the first thousand threads. Please keep things on topic here).

This thread (http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?p=24803092&) inspired me for this question. If you really think about it: can joysticks or joypads dodge as easy as real keys? I have played Street Fighter 2 both on console (SNES) as on PC (even the exact same game, only emulated)...though perfectly possible to perform doubletapping moves on a joybad, keys were IMO easier. Not that much, but then again, UT3 will require much more doubletapping to play at a decent level.

Two other arguments might be interesting to know before casting your vote:
1) hardware manufacturers aren't dumb. If a game doesn't allow for to bind doubletapping, some piece of hardware will provide it for you. Gamepads and even some keyboards allow for micros that allow you pretty much the exact same functionality if you know what you're doing
2) actually being able to map a dodge to a single key doesn't make people good players. Almost the contrary: you can only bind so much keys close to your hand, so you'll pretty much have to choose between moving only with dodges, or not binding any dodges whatsoever. Personally, I actually HAVE one of those cheater devices: a N52. I never even considered going for a single dodge button, for the simple reason it doesn't have enough keys to support AND walking, AND dodging AND decent weapon switching. ;)

[RyGaR]

Well UC2 used a sort of similar system, where the jump button was combined into dodge all in one button. Although technically it wasn't a dodge it worked as one. I think it worked quite well for that game, better then UC1's manual directional pad double tapping.

I voted for "Partially: only joypad users should be ale to bind it" because I don't see the need for it on keyboards via PC.

[MonsOlympus]

Well double taps can be performed better on a dpad, is there a rule that a console game needs to use both analogs?

I voted NO, its one of the hallmark features of UT, UC2 was good with the way it did the context sensitive jumps/dodges but I feel it would be best for Epic to get both console and PC variants as close as possible so we can play cross-platform!

[OlgaB]

I voted no since I use a joystick+mouse for moving, and dodging is just fine.

[Ward]

I voted no. The system is fine as it is and aside from the PS2 version of UT1 (in which you couldn't dodge) I haven't played any other console version of the franchise.

[rhiridflaidd]

Yes, do it. If people want to waste a key on dodging when a double tap is more intuitive and easier, and keys for weapon binds are scarce, let them do it if that's what they want to do.

It'll let novices pull a few tricks, and get a quicker way into the game, but ultimately it will disadvantage them.

As is said, you can already get joysticks to do this and I'm sure that you could even get a keyboard macro or mess with uberoptions to do the same. So why waste resources and time fighting it.

[Daimao]

Same as rhiridflaidd.

[CreepyD]

Same again.

Bind em if you like, but overall I think it will hinder you more than help :)

[fuegerstef]

Same again.

Bind em if you like, but overall I think it will hinder you more than help :)

Same here.

[MonsOlympus]

So what will happen to the jump button if there is a dodge one?

[Ward]

The jump button will probably remain as it is: it's the dodge button that'll be added on top of that. And like many said, it'll make things more complicated.

[MonsOlympus]

Well UC2 didnt need a jump button after a dodge button was added, its kinda a merger because you can dodge with it, dodge jump with it, wall dodge with it and double jump when standing still. Im not a fan of doing this on the PC, sure things could be made a tad easier so you can play atleast an hour at full speed but removing dodging isnt the way to go!

[Taleweaver]

Mons...aren't you forgetting that to get on top of an object, dodging won't get you as high as a regular jump? I could be wrong, but I think that UT2004's dodge is even lover (in height) than the normal jump (let alone the double jump).

[MonsOlympus]

Mons...aren't you forgetting that to get on top of an object, dodging won't get you as high as a regular jump? I could be wrong, but I think that UT2004's dodge is even lover (in height) than the normal jump (let alone the double jump).

Yeah indeed but this thread is about essentially turning dodging into another form of jumping. See people who play alot will know the finer points between dodges and jumps but others wont. Its not going to make anything easier at all, Ive seen people macro's in action and the guy said he doesnt use them because he has to reach across to the macro key to do it.

I mean really this game, as far as I know, wont have multi-walldodging or dodge jumping so whats the point of making dodging a single button? I feel very strongly about this one because as long as there has been UT there has been the trademark double tap dodge! Double tap will always be a superior movement option in my eyes, making it anything else is just watering down!

Edit: I dont think even console users are thinking right, see there isnt going to be room for a dodge "and" a jump button on the gamepad!

[TWD]

Would it really make any difference. If someone wants to bind it to a key let them. The players that use double tap will still have an advantage, particularly the console players because a dodge key would take up another spot.

The only other method that would work at all is to have a seperate button for dodge. If left + jump = dodge left then what if I want to jump left, don't want to dodge, and need to keep my momentum? It just wouldn't work.

[Wormbo]

Reuse the jump button:
jump + movement key = dodge
jump without movement key = jump

[Twigstir]

I voted no since I use a joystick+mouse for moving, and dodging is just fine.

Really? I've heard that only a very few of joystick players can dodge. Quite a few threads in the ut2004 forum on this. So I wouldn't call that just fine.

I use a joystick for moving and can't dodge for crap. It would be much easier to have a dodge button. Tap or double tap that button and you dodge in the direction your joystick is pointing.

There is no need to change anything. Just add an additional dodge button for joystick and gamepad users.

Keyboard players double tap a movement key as they do now. Joystick and gamepad players could double tap a seperate "dodge" button. All this seperate button does, is allow players to use whatever input device they want.

So, this poll is worthless. All options are not included.

[StalwartUK]

The way that UT does it is just fine. Double-tap a movement key and you... dodge.

[MonsOlympus]

Tap or double tap that button and you dodge in the direction your joystick is pointing.

Thats a good suggestion hey, it should be a doubletap so its still like doing a dodge. That would work for Joystick/mouse users but Im not sure on gamepad hey.

There is alot of buttons for UT as it is, lets have a look at some of the most used ones. Use, Jump, Weapons switch up/down/previous/last depending, duck (no need for walk really with analog movement), Fire, Alt Fire, Drop Weapon, Feign Death, Speech Menu, Say/Team Say, Scoreboard (dunno on this), Menu.

Well those are about all of them I rekon, if you have any more lemme know. So thats 12 not counting previous/last weapons, say/team say as 1 and no ducking. With a Dodge that would make 13 there is even more that could be in as well those are just the ones I picked as the most useful. See the scoreboard could not be a separate button but thats 11, 12 including dodge on a gamepad. The 360 gamepad has only 8-12 from what I can tell from the pics, dont own one :p

Some how I think cross platform play is gonna be difficult with people who dont have enough buttons to perform the stuff needed. I would like to see cross platform play myself though :(

[Twigstir]

Consols/gamepads will always have a problem with limited keys. Allowing someone to pick and choose how they set up the game is better. Some gamepad players may be able to dodge with the movement stick. For those who can't, they could choose to give up ducking, feign death, or something else to allow them to dodge.

I play with a joystick. I can't dodge with the joystick. So, I don't play UT2004 very much at all because of it. Dodging is a huge part of the game and I just can't do it. {P.S. I play with a joystick because my fingers hurt playing games with a keyboard}.

So, giving gamepad users options for setting up the game can make a difference between playing the game or not playing. The additional dodge button can't hurt. It can only help.

[Boksha]

Reuse the jump button:
jump + movement key = dodge
jump without movement key = jump That'd mean regular jumping in a certain direction would be nearly impossible. :confused:

[JaFO]

That'd mean regular jumping in a certain direction would be nearly impossible. :confused:

It wouldn't be impossible if you were able to use momentum that way you wouldn't have to be holding the any key in order to jump in the desired direction.

The Infiltration-mod for UT'99 (and any good realism-mod) did add such features and the overall feel of the game does improve even though it does feel a bit 'floaty' at first since you can't instantly change direction. In a way this would make the dodge more useful as you'd need to dodge for instant direction-changes ...

Anyways ... as for the original question :
IMHO the question is not whether we should allow players to bind certain keys/commands, but how user-friendly such option should be.

It is the one thing that has always annoyed me in games and software in general. Features should be available in a decent GUI instead of hidden in a 'secret' configuration-file. Such things only serve to needlessly increase the skill-gap between a new player and a seasoned veteran.

As noted it won't stop anyone from using hardware-based solutions (there's always a way around even if it means rewriting the driver yourself).

So I'd rather give the players the opportunity to configure the controls in a way that suits them best. It is the game-interface that should adapt to the user and not the other way around.

Somewhat related to the need for keybinds is another question :
do we really need separate commands for every action ?
Gears of War proves that you can do a lot once you start making use of context-sensitive commands. Battlefield 2 showed how context-sensitive voice-commands could be done. So why shouldn't UT try to improve on its interface ? Or do pc-based games really need as many commands as there are keys on a keyboard ?

[theeDEATHMASTER]

"No and Epic should program a way to disable hardware macros"

[bulldog]

I have a Nostromo N52 and binding a single key dodge was easy enough to do.
I put all direction dodge on the little keypad that accomodates the thumb very well.

however - I don't think it gave the same level of control that using normal movement keys gave and so I got rid of all the binds.

but I do think that single key dodge should be widely available to those that want to use it.

[Sudokian]

I have a Nostromo n50 Speedpad so I will end up binding it anyway.

[{|xDi|}DaMaGE!]

say if you use w,a,s,d for movements, what is a usual bind for a left or right strafe to combind the double tap into one button, which button is a commonly binded button? ive never binded a strafe/dodge.

[HeLDem0n]

-From someone who is getting UT3 on xbox360-
Plz no because this will make less skilled console players more adept. I highly prefer using abxy to move and left stick to aim. This is perfect for dodging. Its what I used on DC-UT and UC and I look forward to doing it again on UT3. Some of the most fun parts on UC was watching all the people move with joystick unable to dodge. Hence they got raped lol.

[Magwa]

I have a Nostromo n50 Speedpad so I will end up binding it anyway.


Not if Epic puts something in to not allow single stroke dodges which i voted they should...If they want people to have single stroke dodes then they should program it in Macro's are the scurge of online gaming..and i feel they should not be allowed..the poll says over 70% of people either like the UT way as is or want No Macro's...

Damage<> say if you use w,a,s,d for movements, what is a usual bind for a left or right strafe to combind the double tap into one button, which button is a commonly binded button? ive never binded a strafe/dodge.<>

answer in UT you CAN"T!

[Cyberz]

no!! I say its cheat, same for everyone

[Modulus]

I think double tapping to dodge is an intuitive and simple way to impliment that functionality. I wouldn't change anything about it... I don't believe it's difficult to do and I don't think that binding a double tap to a single key is really any kind of advantage.

voted for option #3.

[JaFO]

Not if Epic puts something in to not allow single stroke dodges which i voted they should...If they want people to have single stroke dodes then they should program it in Macro's are the scurge of online gaming...
The only reason they are 'bad' is because it is a 'hidden' option in the game.
If adding macro's was easy to do and easy to learn (ie : decent manuals and tutorials as standard) then I doubt it would be a problem.

There simply is no way for Epic to ever counter hardware-based macro's such as the ones used by the Nostromo and various gamepads. The best they can do is to enforce a minimal time-delay between commands. It still wouldn't stop someone from using a single-key dodge, unless they remove dodging completely.

[Magwa]

The only reason they are 'bad' is because it is a 'hidden' option in the game.
If adding macro's was easy to do and easy to learn (ie : decent manuals and tutorials as standard) then I doubt it would be a problem.

There simply is no way for Epic to ever counter hardware-based macro's such as the ones used by the Nostromo and various gamepads. The best they can do is to enforce a minimal time-delay between commands. It still wouldn't stop someone from using a single-key dodge, unless they remove dodging completely.

So they could not have something in the anti cheat program that detects macros?? if that is true then we all are in trouble..to my understanding there is no way to make a macro ingame in any UT game it takes outside hardware,Sytech,nostromo etc.so how can it be a hidden option in the game ? also it is easy to do..and i know people who use shield jump ,double jump,wall dodge etc with the push of one button...anyway i have no programming idea of this so i am just asking ...thanks
:D

[MonsOlympus]

You guys seem to be blowing this macro thing out of proportion, hows this any different to the turbo buttons of old on joysticks? You can get this same stuff for consoles still no doubt where when you hit a button once its like hammering it really fast. Lets just ask that Epic makes it so you can only use a 360/PS3 gamepad in UT3 instead so we all know we are running similar hardware. If you want console play buy a console, if you want the benifits of PC then there will always be a few things you will have to put up with. If you want macro's then buy a keyboard/device with macro's simple as that, its like people telling me to turn off hitsounds or brightskins client side, not that I use macro's myself.

[JaFO]

So they could not have something in the anti cheat program that detects macros?? if that is true then we all are in trouble..

There simply is no way for the game to tell if a sequence of key-presses is from a 'human' source.

There's basically two approaches :
- use a secondary program to intercept keyboard-commands and then translate them into sequences (ie : macros) of your choice.
That is how some people are able to use IR remotes to control media-players on their pc. It is pretty easy and (almost) basic knowledge for anyone writing programs for the Microsoft OS's.

- write a driver that replaces the default HID-driver as used by your controller
The best they could do is to verify that all drivers for the human-interface-device (aka : the usb-based keyboards) are the default official drivers from Microsoft. AFAIK they have such checks for the Nostromo-devices or at least I recall seeing references in Unrealscripts to such things.

XP could enforce rules like this by requiring that all hardware-drivers are certified, but any users can disable the check (and most gamers probably have done so already as new drivers are rarely certified).
Vista may have had stricter integrity checks, but even those have been defeated (or will be pretty soon it is too big a target to ignore) ...
The good news is that not many people have the knowledge to write/hack drivers, but then again they do exist (as users of the alternate drivers like Omega-drivers for Ati and nVidia-cards can confirm).



to my understanding there is no way to make a macro ingame in any UT game it takes outside hardware,Sytech,nostromo etc.so how can it be a hidden option in the game ?
...
It is true that unlike the Quake-series the UT-series doesn't allow for certain sequences like dodges to be bound. But it is possible to bind some macro-like contructions to keys by editing the ini-files (the fact that it is undocumented and outside the GUI is why most new players won't know about this).

But seriously ... if you make sure that commands can't be executed faster than physically possible when the 'normal' controller is used then there's no way the macros will do anything other than either increase the number of keys one has to use or it will force you to stop using some commands.

Binding a dodge to a key is the best example as it would force you to use 8 keys for movement instead of the 4 as used by the default config. The only way to reduce that would be to either drop the 4 'normal' movements (thus forcing that player to dodge everywhere) or use some kind of 'shift'-key to map the dodge to the equivalent movement-key (not exactly a major advantage/cheat compared to the standard config).

[DagnyTaggart]

I voted "no, it's fine the way it is".

However, a one key hammer jump bind would be nice.