Less bounce=dumbing down? [Archive]

iLL

09-21-2006, 12:48 AM

This isn't going to slow the player down is it? In Quake 4 you move like a brick. The whole point is the game should be hard to master ,that is what holds the interest of any decent gamer and allows for skills to be developed over a longer time frame. Noobs get owned, so what! We were all there once and getting better slowly was what kept my interest, unlike Doom 3, HL2 and Q4 which have single player games you quickly complete and inferior online play.

I've heard faster run speed,but we'll see.
Q4 yeah,move like an out of shape 300 pounder.

As far as your comment about a game holding your interest because its harder to master.

I agree with you,but frankly Epic seems to not.They actually are doing the exact opposite imo.The easier the game,more people play it which translates into more money.

New prospective players and the average casual UT player apparently outnumber the good,great,and leet.So who do you think the game will cater to?:rolleyes:

9ades

09-21-2006, 04:40 AM

Yeah, you can certainly argue that it might be considered dumbing the game down.

But many people (like myself) don't have the time, internet connection or even the right network of friends to become 1337, but still want to play an addictive game like ut. These players probably don't expect to top any scoreboards often, but are simply out to kill some time by fragging others.

More grounded gameplay will at least give more people a chance at killing the scoreboard leader, so it will be more fun.

In ut2004, players have to virtually learn a special move and abuse it just to survive long enough to get a weapon. Against anyone who knows how to play the game, that won't be easy at best, and really discouraging at most.

Call me unskilled (I am for the most part), but these reasons are why I'm looking forward to ut2007. I don't think it will disapoint in the fun factor.
:cool:

Xyx

09-21-2006, 05:46 AM

fuegerstef

09-21-2006, 05:50 AM

Speed is also a matter of perception and perspective. That is the reason some people still believe the Manta is faster than the Raptor. Moving through UT200X's oversized hallways seems a lot slower than moving through UT99's cramped corridors.

Yep. Also the reason why UT2k3's 1st person eyeheight was lowered so much compared to the eyeheight of the models ingame.

Cleary

09-21-2006, 05:59 AM

Call me unskilled (I am for the most part), but these reasons are why I'm looking forward to ut2007. I don't think it will disapoint in the fun factor.
:cool:

Fun, thats such an understatement.

sphinx

09-21-2006, 06:27 AM

the more basic you make a game, the faster it will evolve. Look at Q3, or for instance, instagib.
The less you can grasp on physics, the more you have to rely on your own creativity, and the more basic skills. Thus, the game will eventually become more raw, and faster.

If this is a good thing or not? I dont know, i prefer a middle way where the game isnt too dumbed down, but also not filled with a 100 million ways to get away in a fight that should actually be over. That slows a game down more (ie. if your lost in UT, Q3 or for that matter if possible in ig, you are lost, in UT2k4 you grab the shieldgun and with the advanced movement there's a chance you'll get away, slowing down the game quite much)

Cleary

09-21-2006, 06:30 AM

I think It will work, If the game is going to look realistic, its good that atleast it will play realistic.

Jake-SF

09-21-2006, 07:09 AM

This isn't going to slow the player down is it? In Quake 4 you move like a brick. The whole point is the game should be hard to master ,that is what holds the interest of any decent gamer and allows for skills to be developed over a longer time frame. Noobs get owned, so what! We were all there once and getting better slowly was what kept my interest, unlike Doom 3, HL2 and Q4 which have single player games you quickly complete and inferior online play.
Seriously, I played Unreal quite a lot in my game, which is already a lot of (fun) wasted time, and I have trouble playing in UT2004 on many servers whenever some players are too good.

I don't want to play 10 months non-stop before I can do something in the game. I play "sometimes", not constantly, and no game should REQUIRE to play constantly for a long time before you can really have fun. (and no, I don't have fun in UT2004 when I get owned).

wickedsteve

09-21-2006, 08:40 AM

The whole point is the game should be hard to master

Silly me, I thought the whole point is the game should be fun.

Garcia y Vega

09-21-2006, 09:04 AM

I was a noob in 2k3 and loved it...

I will miss all the goodness that is 2k3 and 2k4 RIP.

Boksha

09-21-2006, 09:52 AM

The whole point is the game should be hard to master ,that is what holds the interest of any decent gamer and allows for skills to be developed over a longer time frame. Truth. And this has what to do with reducing the game's bouncyness?
Dodgejumping doesn't exactly require a grand intellect to figure out, nor does it make the game take longer to master.

Noobs get owned, so what! We were all there once and getting better slowly was what kept my interest, unlike Doom 3, HL2 and Q4 which have single player games you quickly complete and inferior online play. Again, truth. However, there is a difference between
1. losing a game with 4 frags while the top player has 50 frags and 0 deaths and, after years of practice, winning a game with 50 frags and 0 deaths.
and 2. losing a game with 15 frags while the top player has 50 frags and 12 deaths, then after years of practice winning a game with 50 frags and 12 deaths.

In both situations it required years to become a great player, but in the first situation the game was no fun at all in the beginning and you couldn't even see yourself improve, while in the second situation you could at least have some fun while playing. In fact, in the second situation you can see yourself improve even further after all those years, while in the first situation the only way to judge whether you're getting better is seeing if you can beat better players.

Nny

09-21-2006, 10:37 AM

The lack of dodge jump angers and frightens me... I must be held.

JaFO

09-21-2006, 02:25 PM

Truth. And this has what to do with reducing the game's bouncyness?
Dodgejumping doesn't exactly require a grand intellect to figure out, nor does it make the game take longer to master.

False ...
It also requires the will to abuse any game-mechanic for no reason except to become #1 at the cost of everyone(!) else. And especially this the reason the community and the game practically killed itself.

Dodge-jumping is not explained in the manual.
It was never explained in the tutorials.
The bots didn't use it (and never learned to).
UT2k3 barely managed to explain basic dodging so the chance of anyone 'figuring it out' are practically zero, unless you were a geek to begin with ...

It was never intended to be a technique that could be used (therefor it was not balanced by other mechanics).

... Noobs get owned, so what! ...

Not "so what!"
It is these "noobs" that bring the new blood in games.
It is these "noobs" that lose interest because they can't have any fun at the lowest level of this game (public servers).

Just imagine playing soccer and finding out that the other club is composed out of professionals that completely destroy any chance of you even touching the ball from the moment the game starts.

Or imagine picking F1-racing and having to race an entire field of Schumachers with lousy attitudes ...

You can't seriously expect a sport to even survive under those circumstances.

Games should never be "hard to master"
They should be *EASY to LEARN* and Fun to play.
This is not something that is played in order to make money for anyone except Epic.
It was never designed as such either.
So why even treat it like it is ?

Hedge-o-Matic

09-21-2006, 02:42 PM

False ...
It also requires the will to abuse any game-mechanic for no reason except to become #1 at the cost of everyone(!) else. And especially this the reason the community and the game practically killed itself.

Dodge-jumping is not explained in the manual.
It was never explained in the tutorials.
The bots didn't use it (and never learned to).
UT2k3 barely managed to explain basic dodging so the chance of anyone 'figuring it out' are practically zero, unless you were a geek to begin with ...

It was never intended to be a technique that could be used (therefor it was not balanced by other mechanics).

Not "so what!"
It is these "noobs" that bring the new blood in games.
It is these "noobs" that lose interest because they can't have any fun at the lowest level of this game (public servers).

Just imagine playing soccer and finding out that the other club is composed out of professionals that completely destroy any chance of you even touching the ball from the moment the game starts.

Or imagine picking F1-racing and having to race an entire field of Schumachers with lousy attitudes ...

You can't seriously expect a sport to even survive under those circumstances.

Games should never be "hard to master"
They should be *EASY to LEARN* and Fun to play.
This is not something that is played in order to make money for anyone except Epic.
It was never designed as such either.
So why even treat it like it is ?

This whole post needs to be repeated. Nicely done!

Moloko

09-21-2006, 03:35 PM

Jafo since you started the analogical language, a better analogy would be turning up to play a good game of soccer and finding out all teams have to wear lead boots , to make it fairer for everyone. I may be completely wrong on this topic and the game might be as fast and crazy as ever, and I hope for this, but some of the change comments from Epic sound dangerous to good top level game play and I'd hate to see them "fix" a problem that doesn't exist.
As for your other comment, when I first played online,shortly after buying UT2K3 I got killed and killed, it didn't make me want to "lose interest" or stop playing.Surely this should make you think, how did he do that? I wanna do that, giving the player a practice makes better, don't get mad,get even feeling. The Public servers are never full of unbeatable players, so no one need feel left out.

Garcia y Vega

09-21-2006, 04:04 PM

UT2k3 barely managed to explain basic dodging so the chance of anyone 'figuring it out' are practically zero, unless you were a geek to begin with ...

You want to say that to my face? :eek:

:p

Axeman

09-21-2006, 04:08 PM

Good post JaFO.
I agree.

Moloko- you won't feel as though you have lead boots on. They are increasing running speed. How much? Who knows. We'll have to play it to find out.

UT99 didn't have dodge jump, double jump or wall dodging and it was a fast paced game. What made it fast paced? The level design. (plus you could run faster in UT99 than you can in UT200X)

I completely agree that if you use UT200X scaled maps with the proposed UT2007 movement (removal of dodge jump and heavier gravity), then yes- you would feel like you have lead boots on.

But guess what? They'll make the levels fit the movement therefore it won't feel any less fast paced than UT2004. You just won't be able to navigate a 1536 unit hallway in two dodge jumps or .4 seconds (or six keystrokes that aren't detailed anywhere in the game/manual/tutorials).

-Axe

ShredPrince

09-21-2006, 04:28 PM

IF THE GAME HAS DODGING TUTORIALS : ALL IS OK FOR ANY SKILL LEVEL!

Axeman

09-21-2006, 04:33 PM

Ok- but how does that fix player scale?
Which is really the ONLY thing I don't like in UT2003/4. Player scale is borked.
I actually like dodge jump and double jump and wall dodges. I use them all the time in UT2004.

But I'm all in favor of whatever gameplay sacrifices have to be made to fix player scale. If a dodge jump has to go- so be it. If it's the double jump- go for it. If it's wall dodging- make it walk the plank for the sake of a more realistic player to environment perspective and scale.

-Axe

theeDEATHMASTER

09-21-2006, 04:51 PM

I look forward to the no dodge jumping really, it may end up having a much faster gameplay due to less high flying movement, which I'd love to have. It's not exactly about where you move, just how fast you do it then change to another direction before eating a rocket for lunch.

MonsOlympus

09-21-2006, 04:53 PM

If the run speed is indeed faster then dodges should be as well I imagine, why a big slow arc when you can have a low fast one ;)

Boksha

09-21-2006, 05:18 PM

JaFO: when I said "Dodgejumps aren't hard to figure out" I meant it doesn't take years to master the art of dodgejumping, therefore it doesn't add anything to the longivety of the game.

And I completely disagree with you that games shouldn't be hard to master. Games that aren't hard to master become boring VERY quickly. Think of tic-tac-toe. How long are you going to play that after you and your opponent figure out how to play every game up to a draw?

It seems you're confusing "hard to master" with "hard to learn". A good game is easy to learn but hard (or impossible) to master. Generally, the latter criterium applies to ALL popular online games, while the former obviously does not apply to UT2004. (the lack of tutorials means a lot of people will never figure out the basics, making it hard to learn)

And Moloko, your comment about Epic doing things dangerous for "good top level play" is a bit off. It's a common misconception that competetive play depends on a few very fragile things. Competetive gamers do NOT need the dodgejump and the game does NOT need the dodgejump to be competetive, I can tell you that much. I mean, Counter Strike is played competetively... I think that says something.

(edit) The above paragraph sounded a bit... arrogant before. :p

Xyx

09-21-2006, 05:42 PM

"pros" want a high precision tool for pwnage measuring. n00bs just want to get some laughs and blow up sh!t. Never the twain shall meet. Everything in between is a sliding scale.

Boksha

09-21-2006, 05:45 PM

"pros" want a high precision tool for pwnage measuring. The only thing "pros" want is a game that's fun to play at a competetive level.
Never the twain shall meet? Take a look at the top 10 in the Gamespy stats...

theeDEATHMASTER

09-21-2006, 05:50 PM

Gamespy O_o;

JaFO

09-21-2006, 06:09 PM

JaFO: when I said "Dodgejumps aren't hard to figure out" I meant it doesn't take years to master the art of dodgejumping, therefore it doesn't add anything to the longivety of the game.

it may not take 'years', but since there's no explanation and guidance whatsoever it may take 'years' to even learn about its existance.
In effect it is only hard to master, because it is secret knowledge that is only available to members of a (wannabe) elite guild ( ... ).

And I completely disagree with you that games shouldn't be hard to master. Games that aren't hard to master become boring VERY quickly. Think of tic-tac-toe. How long are you going to play that after you and your opponent figure out how to play every game up to a draw?

It seems you're confusing "hard to master" with "hard to learn".

'hard to master' by itself automatically implies that it is only 'hard' because the knowledge to 'master' it is hidden from everyone except the no-life gamers...

If you really meant to say that it should be "easy to learn, but hard to master" then you should have said so. The fact that something is easy to learn is quite essential.

Oh ... and while "Tic tac toe" may be 'boring' it also is a lot of fun to play in between 'important' stuff, simply because there's only so few things you need to take care off. In a way it is an excellent tool to measure how 'awake' you are as you can still lose if you completely disregard all tactics/moves.
Sure ... it would suck as a 'competitive' game, but who has ever said that UT was meant to be a competitive game in the first place ? Epic certainly hasn't done so. In fact they've practically made clear that it was/is meant to be a game for the majority of 'casual gamers'.

Gregori

09-21-2006, 06:11 PM

Dodge jump is being falsely equated with skill here! It's not a skillful move, just a way to get from point A-B, and to flee during a fight. It requires more skill to succesfully avoid fire with simple dodges and jumps in a tight space. Dodge jump not being mentioned in the manual is just plain stupid, since its a requirement to get around most maps and in a decent amount of time.

The dumbing down thing is a bit of an exaggeration since the game has both wall dodge and double jump still in it, thats more than most FPS games have in terms of mobility.

Xyx

09-21-2006, 06:15 PM

The only thing "pros" want is a game that's fun to play at a competetive level. ...which requires it to be a high precision pwnage measuring tool stripped of luck, easy frags and anything that reduces FPS.

the game has both wall dodge and double jump still in it, thats more than most FPS games have in terms of mobility.
Doublejump does not add mobility, just removes it. Gone is your ability to scale the lowest of obstacles with a single press of the spacebar. For reasons the universe cannot fathom, any random mapper will make it a point to raise said obstacle to just below the doublejump height.

Boksha

09-21-2006, 06:24 PM

Gamespy O_o; What's your point? Gamespy is currently the only place to get stats about online numbers. It doesn't work for UT2004 obviously, but it should work OK for other games.

JaFO, are you completely bonkers?

Gregori

09-21-2006, 06:36 PM

Doublejump does not add mobility, just removes it. Gone is your ability to scale the lowest of obstacles with a single press of the spacebar. For reasons the universe cannot fathom, any random mapper will make it a point to raise said obstacle to just below the doublejump height.

Thats mostly a mapping issue. With a reduced double jump it will be easier to have maps were single and double jumps work for different things. With an increased run speed the distance traveled with a double jump is probably longer too!

The Argonaut

09-21-2006, 08:26 PM

I'm a noob to UT2004 having just chucked bf2 off my system because ea games have finally killed the game with repeated bad patches.
Why did this happen?
Well the players get into a syndrome where they constantly gripe about different aspects of the game on the forums and what happens?
EA change the game with patches that require more patches to correct the most recent patch ad infinitum.
Accept a game will never be perfect and enjoy it for what it is, just harmless fun that is just a bit addictive sometimes.
To be honest I would rather be addicted to a computer game than smoking or drink for the simple reason that one can just switch off when one's had enough, instead of craving for another fix.
The graphics on UT 2004 are superb,the maps are good,the action is quick,the players are not too *****y and any ping or server problems pale into insignificance compared to bf2.
Stay positive & don't spoil it please!!!!

theeDEATHMASTER

09-21-2006, 08:39 PM

it may not take 'years', but since there's no explanation and guidance whatsoever it may take 'years' to even learn about its existance.
In effect it is only hard to master, because it is secret knowledge that is only available to members of a (wannabe) elite guild ( ... ).

'hard to master' by itself automatically implies that it is only 'hard' because the knowledge to 'master' it is hidden from everyone except the no-life gamers...

If you really meant to say that it should be "easy to learn, but hard to master" then you should have said so. The fact that something is easy to learn is quite essential.

Oh ... and while "Tic tac toe" may be 'boring' it also is a lot of fun to play in between 'important' stuff, simply because there's only so few things you need to take care off. In a way it is an excellent tool to measure how 'awake' you are as you can still lose if you completely disregard all tactics/moves.
Sure ... it would suck as a 'competitive' game, but who has ever said that UT was meant to be a competitive game in the first place ? Epic certainly hasn't done so. In fact they've practically made clear that it was/is meant to be a game for the majority of 'casual gamers'.
wow, you actually made me laugh :D

Kyllian

09-21-2006, 08:54 PM

For reasons the universe cannot fathom, any random mapper will make it a point to raise said obstacle to just below the doublejump height.Depending on what's at the other side, they may want you to hammer jump over it
Like if there's something special behind it, a bit of a "risk for reward" thing

Boksha

09-22-2006, 07:03 AM

Depending on what's at the other side, they may want you to hammer jump over it
Like if there's something special behind it, a bit of a "risk for reward" thing Xyx point was that if there was no double jump, the mappers would instead lower things you couldn't doublejump over before to the level where you can't do a regular jump over it, and all the places you could doublejump on before to the level where you can do a regular jump on it.

Result: you can go to exactly the same places with the doublejump as you can without the doublejump, only in the latter case the whole level is a bit lower. Therefore, the doublejump does not, effectively, add mobility.

Said slightly different: adding a doublejump would only add mobility if the maps remained the same. Adding a doublejump ability before the maps are made means the maps will be made with the doublejump in mind, so there's no extra mobility. (whether the doublejump is in or not, you can only go wherever the mapper wants you to be able to go)

MonsOlympus

09-22-2006, 08:31 AM

So in essence your saying mappers should use single jump and base there maps on that so when it comes to players using double jumps they will actually get more mobility? Well thats kinda how I always saw it, I agree with this:

Said slightly different: adding a doublejump would only add mobility if the maps remained the same. Adding a doublejump ability before the maps are made means the maps will be made with the doublejump in mind, so there's no extra mobility. (whether the doublejump is in or not, you can only go wherever the mapper wants you to be able to go)

EDIT: To expand on this alittle, say a mapper makes a really tight space and thats there intention why should they have to make it bigger to support a double jump or dodge jump? Well to put it simply they dont if a player is silly enough to attempt a move in those considitions then its not the mappers fault.

On the other hand though youve got obstacles you need to double jump onto, if a mapper wanted to they could make it a single jump only to help scaling but they dont. You could possibly double jump over then duck behind it but thats usually not taken into consideration because it was designed to be reached only with a double jump. This one would be the mappers fault and an area where they could listen to a player's suggestions.

Boksha

09-22-2006, 02:34 PM

I'd agree with your point that mappers don't HAVE to make a map so that people can use all moves, but look at what happened to Curse3. That map got chewed out and ridiculed because it was too cramped.
At any rate,
So in essence your saying mappers should use single jump and base there maps on that so when it comes to players using double jumps they will actually get more mobility? Well thats kinda how I always saw it, I agree with this: That wasn't exactly what I meant. I was just having a go at the notion that having a doublejump in the game adds extra mobility in terms of moving about the map, because it really doesn't and shouldn't IMO.

MonsOlympus

09-22-2006, 02:43 PM

Yeah curse 3 is kinda a touchy subject, its a decent map IMO but I wouldnt go so far to call it great. Its not because its cramped either, Ive always has something against the layout its just alittle rushed. It does have acouple of nice areas though which could have been used to create a better map. On a whole though its more playable than some of the other maps that came with the game.

Its just some of these tight maps come from ut99 or they have influence from them. There are maps in ut99 you cant even single jump in without hitting your head, or areas where its just wide enough to dodge and thats it. I dont see why this didnt follow through the ut2k3 and 2k4, suddenly every area of the map had to be big enough to perform any one of the new moves which ended up causing other issues. I imagine epic and de were happy though when the map size was increased so you can forgive them alittle over excitement I guess hehe

ShredPrince

09-22-2006, 02:51 PM

IMO bumping heads = crappy mapping.

MonsOlympus

09-22-2006, 02:54 PM

Well if the mapper didnt want someone to double jump or dodge jump in that area then Id disagree. Its up to the player to judge if a room is big enough to perform the move, it shouldnt be up to the mapper to make everything so large it wont make a difference.

I dunno how well that logic works in practise, I know players dont really like blocking volumes either.

ShredPrince

09-22-2006, 02:57 PM

All I know is most player get annoyed by this.

My opinion or yours on it being "design worthy" or not really is irrelevent.

What matters is what the audience thinks.In my experinces maps where you bump your head do not get played.

NOw I disagree with this one, but it was said to me once by a server admin that DM-CBP2-Tydal was like this: I DISAGREE, and never had aproblem double jumping on it.

Well he hated it, and for some odd reason thought he always bumped his head.

So he removed it from rotations.

MonsOlympus

09-22-2006, 03:06 PM

Yeah there can be instance where a random bit of mesh or brush sticks out and causes the player to get stuck on it all the time. Especially if its really hard to see, players will just get frastrated and think of it as a flaw.

Sometimes putting visible objects in the way on purpose is a good way to channel the movement to a certain area but can also frustrate players as well. I find if an area is more blocked in by brushes it works better than using large meshes to give the player a hint to how much room they have.

ShredPrince

09-22-2006, 03:11 PM

I guess my point is good map design would not permit this at all.

I think alot of people confuse good gameplay from a good theme.

I've seen many maps that look wonderful, but play crappy.

My point is this:

You may have that area where you want it to look lower than others for your "theme".

This must be sacrificed for gameplay IMO.

MonsOlympus

09-22-2006, 03:17 PM

Well I think its because without being in the air 2k4 is alot slower so that could be a good reason for upping the runspeed so that tight areas can play just as fast instead of slower.

It'll be spammy but damn whats a tight hallway good for other than that :p

Xyx

09-23-2006, 06:27 AM

A double jump is not an extra jump on top of a regular jump. A double jump is a regular jump cut into two half jumps. Therefore a double jump only gives you the same hight as a regular jump would have given you. So where you could originally jump onto obstacles with a regular jump, you are now required to press space twice to jump onto those same obstacles.

Double jump would add mobility if mappers would include obstacles that only require half a regular jump. However, no mapper ever does that.

UT2004 would not be any different if the two half jumps were added back together into a single regular jump. All it would do was save you a press of the spacebar every time you'd jump onto something.

But that is a mapping issue. Mappers seem to consider obstacles of half jump height pointless.

Silvester[AUT]

09-24-2006, 06:24 AM

A double jump is not an extra jump on top of a regular jump. A double jump is a regular jump cut into two half jumps. Therefore a double jump only gives you the same hight as a regular jump would have given you.

Please Xyx, activate the Quad Jump mutator, press your jump button 4x and then tell me how high you got.

I am waiting ...:mad:

Xyx

09-24-2006, 11:48 AM

Four times half, your point being?

Did you think that, in the process of adding the double jump to the game, the total jump height was not reviewed?

MonsOlympus

09-24-2006, 11:52 AM

I think he was saying if what you said was true then quad jump would infact be doublejump x2. In which case a double jump is only half a normal jump. Well something like that, oh no Im confused lolz

Wail of Suicide

09-24-2006, 12:50 PM

A double jump is not an extra jump on top of a regular jump. A double jump is a regular jump cut into two half jumps. Therefore a double jump only gives you the same hight as a regular jump would have given you. So where you could originally jump onto obstacles with a regular jump, you are now required to press space twice to jump onto those same obstacles.

Double jump would add mobility if mappers would include obstacles that only require half a regular jump. However, no mapper ever does that.

Xyx is correct here. I don't recall where I first saw the statistics, but a jump in 2k4 is said to be about 70% of the height of a jump in UT. Combined with a perfectly timed double jump, you can go as high as 140% of a UT jump. But the practical impact of one jump at 140% of UT99 height and two jumps ... is extremely minimal.

UnrealWiki (http://wiki.beyondunreal.com/wiki/Movement_Metrics_(UT2004))says that a single jump is 54uu vertically, whereas maximum step-height in 2k4 is 40uu... Good luck getting any usefulness out of that single jump.

Silvester[AUT]

09-24-2006, 01:59 PM

Aha! That was meant. I didn't know that historical stuff Wall of Suicide posted.
Then performing a quad jump takes you 4x40uu in the air somewhat.

OK. You can climb mountains with that.
I think it was my english too!:)

MonsOlympus

09-24-2006, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by Wail of Suicide
UnrealWiki says that a single jump is 54uu vertically, whereas maximum step-height in 2k4 is 40uu... Good luck getting any usefulness out of that single jump.

WTF thats just crazy hey, why did they bother with a single jump in the first place :S Im even more confused now than I was before. A single jump should be higher but a double should be lower then is that right?

Silvester[AUT]

09-25-2006, 01:32 PM

WTF thats just crazy hey, why did they bother with a single jump in the first place :S Im even more confused now than I was before. A single jump should be higher but a double should be lower then is that right?

He meant in UT(99) the jump heigh was 56uu, with no double jump.
And in UT2kx it was 40uu without doublejump, then makeing a dd gets you to aprox 80uu. Depends on how good you do that.
But jumping of an elevator and fly in the air like rockets do, gets you the highest.

MonsOlympus

09-25-2006, 01:42 PM

So there isnt a meager 16uu between a jump and a step like what I was thinking?

http://wiki.beyondunreal.com/wiki/General_Scale_And_Dimensions

Steps
Maximum: 24 units
Recommended: 16 units
TournamentPlayers can climb any step that is 24 units or less. Using 16 as default stepheight is a smart thing to do, because stuff will align to the grid better that way.

Tarquin: has this increased in UT2003? I seem to be able to do 32.

http://wiki.beyondunreal.com/wiki/Movement_Metrics_(UT2004)

Move, Height, Distance, Notes
J 54 UU 315 UU
D 19 / 20 UU 292 / 351 UU
J, DJ 126 UU 608 UU
D, DJ 90 / 91 UU 742 / 857 UU
J, DJ, WD 149 / 143 UU 516 / 965 UU
J, WD, DJ 150 / 145 UU 787 / 1047 UU

From all this it seems like either 18-30 odd uu's or something but thats still not very much :\

Silvester[AUT]

09-25-2006, 01:58 PM

I think they mean a stairway to heav....:)
The second link is nearly dead.

MonsOlympus

09-25-2006, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by Silvester[AUT]
But jumping of an elevator and fly in the air like rockets do, gets you the highest.

I missed that lolz :D

And Im building a stair way to heavennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn cha!

Wail of Suicide

09-25-2006, 02:24 PM

So there isnt a meager 16uu between a jump and a step like what I was thinking?

http://wiki.beyondunreal.com/wiki/General_Scale_And_Dimensions

http://wiki.beyondunreal.com/wiki/Movement_Metrics_(UT2004)

From all this it seems like either 18-30 odd uu's or something but thats still not very much :\

The figures from General_Scale_And_Dimensions seem to be generally drawn from UT99 (there is a lot of unupdated stuff on UnrealWiki).

The UT2003 metrics says that 40 is the maximum step-height: http://wiki.beyondunreal.com/wiki/Movement_Metrics_(UT2003)

This DodgeProMod essay (http://www.dodgepromod.com/articles/trickjumpguide.html) indicates that a single jump's vertical limit is 60uu. I'm not sure if the DodgeProMod alters movement in any way (I assume not), but it seems otherwise to be extremely detailed and reliable.

Whether it's 50-odd units or 60, though, we're talking about a single-jump being about a step-and-a-half high. That isn't very much to work with.

One solution would be to make the single jump comprise about 80% of the total jump height, where the second button press would add only a minor 20% or so to the jump. I feel like this is the best option, although it makes me wonder what the usefulness of those few extra UUs is going to be -- Seems like it'd be easier to have one single jump at 100% and skip the flow-breaking hup-hup action that'll occur when you realize your jump is 8 UUs too short to clear the box and you need that extra boost.

In general I think the fundamental reason why the double jump will always be considered default is because there's no restriction on it. If you want to restrict a ledge to only be accessible via double jump... Then you're not restricting the ledge. Period.

If you want to restriction then there needs to be a limiting factor. Hammer/Shield jumping is restricted by your health. Jumpboots by the pickup and the number of jumps. People can, and do, double jump all day long. If getting to a place on your map is going to require double jumping then that's what they'll do.

MonsOlympus

09-25-2006, 02:30 PM

Yeah that makes total sense, perhaps limiting the double jump to a stamina might be cool. Really though the single jump should be the default and the double jump there as extra so say you got a crate thats a single jump high but theres a larger crate next to it thats a double jump, you could

A. single jump on the smaller crate and single jump onto the larger crate.
B. double jump onto the larger crate.
C. single jump onto the smaller crate and double jump over the larger crate.
D. double jump over the smaller crate.

You get what Im saying, it gives more to tactics and strategy. This is ofcoarse a simplified example but I think you can see what Im getting at. As it stands in 2k4 it would be double jump to the small crate and double jump to the large crate.

Silvester[AUT]

09-25-2006, 02:48 PM

I feel like this is the best option, although it makes me wonder what the usefulness of those few extra UUs is going to be -- Seems like it'd be easier to have one single jump at 100% and skip the flow-breaking hup-hup action that'll occur when you realize your jump is 8 UUs too short to clear the box and you need that extra boost.

And I got the ideal example for this Situation: In BR-Anubis attempting to get a 7 point gaol you have to double jump throug it. The goal there is hanging over much lasers so when you fall down you die. The goal at least gives you satisfaction. Not performing that needed dd you die without goal, and are broken, for a sec or two, you know what I mean.:cool:

os][ris

09-28-2006, 02:31 PM

90% of posts in this thread are b.s.

For one. People are equating dodge jumping, floaty movement, etc to skill and the game being "harder" to master/ learn or whatever, but you are completely wrong, that type of movement does the complete opposite. All it does is allow players to easily avoid death, easily jump in and out of a fight and easily run. It also allows good players to be extremely better then "okay" players, which explains the skill gap in 2k4. The shield gun only multiply's this 100 fold, being as though you can easily escape death but running half of the time.

Less floaty movement, no shield gun, and no dodge jump will actually make the game HARDER in a sense. You can no longer rely on cheesy back flips or cowardly back peddling with shield gun. It will be harder to avoid death. Just because your doing summersaults and back handsprings all across a map does not mean you have skill and it does not mean the game is harder to learn. All it did was make the game cheesy and provide a large disadvantage to anyone who didn't backflip just like you. There are a million other reasons why dodge jump should be taken out, such as the adverse affect to map size, however i'm not going to get into all that. The fact is there are far more con's then pro's with regards to dodge jumping.

And contrary to popular opinion pro's do not want hitscan dominance. They want the game to be fun just like everyone else. You think running around holding primary shock rifle is fun? (EPIC PLEASE ADJUST THE GOT DAMN ROF ON SHOCK RIFLE) Most of the "pro's" who played 2k4 in the beginning do not play it currently. Now that should tell you something because UT was played HEAVILY all the way until 2k3 was released. 2k4 lasted 2 years if that and 2k3 was a joke, sorry Epic, but you know it's true.

Going back to UT roots is good for the game and i'm glad they came to their senses. Everyone who disagree's can continue to play 2k4 when the game is released, just like ut players did when 2k3 was released. But i'm willing to bet 2k4 will be non-existent by then. Wanna know why? It's because after playing 2k7 they will have realized that it's better, and for good reason.

Good riddance 2k4/3..

Modulus

09-28-2006, 03:24 PM

Magwa

09-28-2006, 03:34 PM

The5thviruz

09-28-2006, 03:35 PM

[ris']It will be harder to avoid death.

That's fine. I welcome that. But you watch how many posts we get on this forum once the game is out, and Nooby McSuckage can't win against some guy who is using the shock rifle on him. That is what I am looking forward to. The ASMD is my favorite and best weapon and now they've gone and made me more powerful with it.

Scylla

09-28-2006, 03:39 PM

fuegerstef

09-28-2006, 03:39 PM

The5thviruz

09-28-2006, 03:40 PM

And if they do get close, you can just combo them (with new cramped corridors!)

Or rip out the flak cannon like in 2K4 and kill them with that...

By removing dodge-jumping?????????????????

A dodge-jumper is Hitscan bait. Play some really good aimers and then start to dodge jump.

I'm not talking about dodge jumping in battle with someone. Dodge jump was used in combination with the shield gun, to get away. Both are now gone. It is very easy to hit someone who is grounded with hitscan weapons.

fuegerstef

09-28-2006, 04:11 PM

It is very easy to hit someone who is grounded with hitscan weapons.

Not as easy as someone in the air. :)

theeDEATHMASTER

09-28-2006, 04:21 PM

left, right, right, left, right, dodge jump right *SPLAT*

Boksha

09-28-2006, 04:35 PM

I'm not talking about dodge jumping in battle with someone. Dodge jump was used in combination with the shield gun, to get away. Both are now gone. It is very easy to hit someone who is grounded with hitscan weapons. No... no it's not.
At any rate you seem to be thinking the maps look like they did in UT2004 with large open areas. They won't.
1v1 maps will probably be tighter than DE-Ironic.

(to give an example; a room where you need 3 dodges to get from side to side felt like a LARGE room in UT. That's the 100a room in Ironic)

os][ris

09-28-2006, 05:05 PM

That's fine. I welcome that. But you watch how many posts we get on this forum once the game is out, and Nooby McSuckage can't win against some guy who is using the shock rifle on him. That is what I am looking forward to. The ASMD is my favorite and best weapon and now they've gone and made me more powerful with it.

Thats two separate issues that need to be addressed. Everyone knows shock rifle is crazy stupid in 2k4, but thats separate from the "less floaty movement" issue. I doubt they will keep the rof the same as it currently is.

And lets be honest, someone is always going to have something to complain about. The game is not going to be perfect. But I think the majority of people will have fun playing the game, which is the ultimate goal. If you are having fun and you happen to be the best then fine. But it seems like people dont' want the playing field level'd or they dont' want the game "newbified" because they fear that the so called "noobs" will be able to kill them and they wont look as good playing against them. Well i'm sorry to say but if you are relying on dodge jumping, shield gun and less floaty movement to prove your superiority against new players, or anyone for that matter, then you are devoid of said skill. A good UT player will be a good UT player regardless of movement options or the effects of gravity.

If you like dodge jumping/shield gun/floaty movement just because u like how it plays then fine. But anyoen saying that the game is going to be too newb and it's going to be to easy for newbs to kill you, then you yourself are a newb cause your relying on those aspects of the game to be good. That is NOT skill.

Everyone who loves dodge jumping/shield gun/floaty movement should be happy that all this is going to be taken out. You will have more competition and it will be "harder" (dont know what this obsession is about a game having to be hard by the way) to stand out in the game since you claim the game will be so easy for people to kill you cause of the newbification. Now you have something to work towards, because as it stands right now it's way to easy to completely dominate a new player in 2k4. At least now you'll have to work for it, god forbid.

Scylla

09-28-2006, 05:07 PM

So now instead of using the shock beam (though it will probably still be effective) you can spam cores or flak? What a great solution!

Boksha

09-28-2006, 05:15 PM

So now instead of using the shock beam (though it will probably still be effective) you can spam cores or flak? What a great solution! Yeah, I thought it was a pretty good idea too.

fuegerstef

09-28-2006, 05:36 PM

Yeah, I thought it was a pretty good idea too.

same here :)

Hedge-o-Matic

09-28-2006, 05:54 PM

I think that anything that lessens the spread between the beginner and the advanced player is a good thing. Sure, let there be a skill gap, and let better players be better. But 2k3/4's extreme skill spread is harming the game. If the movement options are the cause of this (as they arguably are), then they've got to go.

cinnix

09-28-2006, 06:04 PM

[ris']90% of posts in this thread are b.s.

For one. People are equating dodge jumping, floaty movement, etc to skill and the game being "harder" to master/ learn or whatever, but you are completely wrong, that type of movement does the complete opposite. All it does is allow players to easily avoid death, easily jump in and out of a fight and easily run. It also allows good players to be extremely better then "okay" players, which explains the skill gap in 2k4. The shield gun only multiply's this 100 fold, being as though you can easily escape death but running half of the time.

Less floaty movement, no shield gun, and no dodge jump will actually make the game HARDER in a sense. You can no longer rely on cheesy back flips or cowardly back peddling with shield gun. It will be harder to avoid death. Just because your doing summersaults and back handsprings all across a map does not mean you have skill and it does not mean the game is harder to learn. All it did was make the game cheesy and provide a large disadvantage to anyone who didn't backflip just like you. There are a million other reasons why dodge jump should be taken out, such as the adverse affect to map size, however i'm not going to get into all that. The fact is there are far more con's then pro's with regards to dodge jumping.

And contrary to popular opinion pro's do not want hitscan dominance. They want the game to be fun just like everyone else. You think running around holding primary shock rifle is fun? (EPIC PLEASE ADJUST THE GOT DAMN ROF ON SHOCK RIFLE) Most of the "pro's" who played 2k4 in the beginning do not play it currently. Now that should tell you something because UT was played HEAVILY all the way until 2k3 was released. 2k4 lasted 2 years if that and 2k3 was a joke, sorry Epic, but you know it's true.

Going back to UT roots is good for the game and i'm glad they came to their senses. Everyone who disagree's can continue to play 2k4 when the game is released, just like ut players did when 2k3 was released. But i'm willing to bet 2k4 will be non-existent by then. Wanna know why? It's because after playing 2k7 they will have realized that it's better, and for good reason.

Good riddance 2k4/3..

[ris']Thats two separate issues that need to be addressed. Everyone knows shock rifle is crazy stupid in 2k4, but thats separate from the "less floaty movement" issue. I doubt they will keep the rof the same as it currently is.

And lets be honest, someone is always going to have something to complain about. The game is not going to be perfect. But I think the majority of people will have fun playing the game, which is the ultimate goal. If you are having fun and you happen to be the best then fine. But it seems like people dont' want the playing field level'd or they dont' want the game "newbified" because they fear that the so called "noobs" will be able to kill them and they wont look as good playing against them. Well i'm sorry to say but if you are relying on dodge jumping, shield gun and less floaty movement to prove your superiority against new players, or anyone for that matter, then you are devoid of said skill. A good UT player will be a good UT player regardless of movement options or the effects of gravity.

If you like dodge jumping/shield gun/floaty movement just because u like how it plays then fine. But anyoen saying that the game is going to be too newb and it's going to be to easy for newbs to kill you, then you yourself are a newb cause your relying on those aspects of the game to be good. That is NOT skill.

Everyone who loves dodge jumping/shield gun/floaty movement should be happy that all this is going to be taken out. You will have more competition and it will be "harder" (dont know what this obsession is about a game having to be hard by the way) to stand out in the game since you claim the game will be so easy for people to kill you cause of the newbification. Now you have something to work towards, because as it stands right now it's way to easy to completely dominate a new player in 2k4. At least now you'll have to work for it, god forbid.

I pretty much have to agree with most of what this man has said. I was more a UT99 person myself, it was because of the advanced movement that swayed me off playing 200x. Well that and the fact there was no Impact Hammer (I come from the UT99 Assault scene). The IH was as much advanced movement as i would like, want to get somewhere inaccesable with standard movement? Hammer Jump there.

Magwa

09-28-2006, 06:40 PM

Or rip out the flak cannon like in 2K4 and kill them with that...

I'm not talking about dodge jumping in battle with someone. Dodge jump was used in combination with the shield gun, to get away. Both are now gone. It is very easy to hit someone who is grounded with hitscan weapons.

And that is the problem with it it was used to get away there was way to much of getaway in 2k3 and 4.we need more fighting not running.!!!!!!!!
The problem i am seeing here is that to many of the people complaining seem<<<'notice i said seem" to have not played Ut99 and therefore do not understand what can and what can not be done with just dodging,and why Epic is going back to that system of gameplay..trust me guys if they do what they say they are doing it will be great....

Xyx

09-28-2006, 07:31 PM

Do I detect a hint of "real men don't avoid getting killed" here?

iLL

09-28-2006, 07:57 PM

Do I detect a hint of "real men don't avoid getting killed" here?

Yeah I think so.

Just because someone is flipping,wall dodging,and moving as they fight must mean they are running away to some.I guess some like to stand face to face and take turns taking shots at one another.This would be the fairest way I guess.

Lessened movement makes the game harder,lolz,yeah right.So UT2k4s advanced movement should have made fragging easier under this philosophy.

MonsOlympus

09-28-2006, 09:28 PM

Yeah the logic of the thread title kinda sucks anyways. Look at uc2, more bounce = more dumbing down. That happened because of the controller mainly not because of the movement.

IMO its all in the projectile speed, ramp up some of the speeds and bam what you say spam but nopes firerates still the same mwhahahahaha or even up the splash some, thats for 2k4 btw we need more n00by selfkills :D

So far 2k7 doesnt look dumbed down one bit maybe the movement is culled somewhat but its still there and it should balance well with the new weapons.

Axeman

09-28-2006, 10:13 PM

Yeah I think so.

Just because someone is flipping,wall dodging,and moving as they fight must mean they are running away to some.I guess some like to stand face to face and take turns taking shots at one another.This would be the fairest way I guess.

Lessened movement makes the game harder,lolz,yeah right.So UT2k4s advanced movement should have made fragging easier under this philosophy.

I think you need to re-read his post.
It will be harder to stay alive with less floaty movement and no shield. There will be more fighting and less running backwards with shield when low on health.
Here is what I see on pubs from quite a few players- you hit someone and they immediately switch to shield and run to get health. Then it becomes a cops-robbers type match of trying to hit someone and corner them so they can't simply dodge jump/shield away as fast as they can to recover.

It will cause more face-to-face fighting which means the person with the best fragging skill will win rather than the person who can get hit- shield up- dodge jump away- get healthy and come back.
So- there will be more frags due to having to stay in battle (rather than running) and be more fun for all.

But that's what I got from reading his post. Perhaps I'm wrong and just didn't read between the lines and understand the take-turns-shooting portion you read.

-Axe

fuegerstef

09-29-2006, 01:42 AM

Xyx

09-29-2006, 07:06 AM

"less floaty movement" also means you have more time to peg people with hitscan before they manage to get close...

Boksha

09-29-2006, 07:19 AM

"less floaty movement" also means you have more time to peg people with hitscan before they manage to get close... No it doesn't.
That wouldn't even apply if the only map in the game was a double size Gael; only a new player (or someone that's not a fast learner) would dodgejump towards someone using hitscan weapons at long range.
Needless to say, the only map in the game WON'T be a double size Gael. Like I said before, the maps in UT were a LOT tighter than they were in UT2003 and UT2004; a room that takes 3 dodges* from side to side felt like a huge room in UT.

Just because someone is flipping,wall dodging,and moving as they fight must mean they are running away to some.I guess some like to stand face to face and take turns taking shots at one another.This would be the fairest way I guess. I guess you'd like it if that's what people want; it'd make it a lot easier to bash them. UT wasn't like that without the dodgejump, so we have absolutely no reason to assuming UT2007 will be anything like that.

Lessened movement makes the game harder,lolz,yeah right.So UT2k4s advanced movement should have made fragging easier under this philosophy. Winning 10-0 against a player that's only slightly worse than you certainly IS a lot easier in UT2004, so yeah.

*This used to read "dodgejumps". Stupid typo... there aren't even dodgejumps in UT.

Hedge-o-Matic

09-29-2006, 07:07 PM

I think the movement system of 2k3/4 is hard to get into because not only is it not explained anywhere in the "manual", it defies the expectations of new players. The game looks pretty intensely real at times, and people naturally assume that if things are so carefully crafted to appear to scale, this scale means something. Suddenly, their opponant is bouncing around off this great scenery in utter and complete defiance of the physics the game is so carefully simulating, and most new people would be more like "WTF?" than "Wow, that's cool!"

How many times did we get the question "How to you flip and cartwheel around?", both in forums and online, during games? Clearly, the disconnect between player's expectations and the game is too great. Say what you want about the movement system, the evidence is that it turns off new players. And people wonder why UT lost so many players after UT99.

I think that the movement system has to change for the good of the game, and for the sake of the players Epic hopes to bring on board. If you loved the movement in 2k3/4, fine. But the series has to change this aspect of the game in order to survive. UT wasn't bouncy, and it's still popular, so clearly, losing the "advanced moves" won't harm the game's audience.

Malkav

09-30-2006, 02:08 AM

I need dodge-jumps, that's my style, I use to move around dodge-jumping, but in ut2007 I just wanna be able of wall-dodging like a crazy, I'm perfecting that technique

iLL

09-30-2006, 03:10 AM

Thread title says it all plain and simple,but its too harsh for the anti dj players so I have sugarcoated it for yas.

Epic is matching the movement of nearly all other FPS (except prone,sprint and slide) to "make it more accessible for new players".

Smart from a business standpoint to get more sales,but at the expense of pissing off those who have put in the time,like the moves offered in 2k4,and think thats one of the very things that makes the game unique.

Whats done is done.Its gone and thats fact.Its just going to make aiming that much easier for 2k4 players since your enemy will only be able to move a few feet at a time.

Imo less aiming skill will be needed to get a frag therefore players with a good eye should have a ball and also be easier to hit for new players.

Its majority that wins,not what anyone of us think anyway.It just so happens the majority of their target demographic is 99 guys and new players.

It will be fun.I will play it.I will adjust as I did coming to 2k4,but its still dumbing the game down imho.

Xyx

09-30-2006, 06:04 AM

Tthe moves offered in 2k4,and think thats the very thing that makes the game unique.
Not the map style that included two towers on an asteroid, the weapon style that included bouncing razor discs, green exploding sh!t, shock combos or personal teleporters, but... the movement? :rolleyes:

Scylla

09-30-2006, 06:36 AM

Thread title says it all plain and simple,but its too harsh for the anti dj players so I have sugarcoated it for yas.

Epic is matching the movement of nearly all other FPS (except prone,sprint and slide) to "make it more accessible for new players".

Smart from a business standpoint to get more sales,but at the expense of pissing off those who have put in the time,like the moves offered in 2k4,and think thats the very thing that makes the game unique.

Whats done is done.Its gone and thats fact.Its just going to make aiming that much easier for 2k4 players since your enemy will only be able to move a few feet at a time.

Imo less aiming skill will be needed to get a frag therefore players with a good eye should have a ball and also be easier to hit for new players.

Its majority that wins,not what anyone of us think anyway.It just so happens the majority of their target demographic is 99 guys and new players.

It will be fun.I will play it.I will adjust as I did coming to 2k4,but its still dumbing the game down imho.

Here, here!

zoom666

10-27-2006, 07:51 AM

(and no, I don't have fun in UT2004 when I get owned).
Giggle
:p

zoom666

10-27-2006, 08:00 AM

Games should never be "hard to master"
They should be *EASY to LEARN* and Fun to play.

UT2K4 = Easy to learn,fun to play and hard to master.

IMHO New players will still get owned from the off,no matter the type of play mechanics.

SO DON'T FU*K WITH IT PLS!

Xyx

10-27-2006, 07:01 PM

Easy to learn for experienced FPS gamers, yes. Hard for everybody else.

MindRiot

10-27-2006, 07:06 PM

I've heard faster run speed,but we'll see.

My God . . . I certainly hope not.

Players move slightly faster than I would like them to and I'm not ashamed to admit that.

Dodgejumping doesn't exactly require a grand intellect to figure out, nor does it make the game take longer to master.

I agree. The skills to master this game are more subtle.

I'm not really a big fan of dodgejumping. The bots and humans expect this of you and you can expect this of bots and humans, so you end up dodging right into their fire.

On the other hand, I love to wall dodge (You get a bit more acceleration). The only thing to master with walldodging is forming the habit of thought or a natural awareness of your surroundings so you can use this maneuver without having to think about it. Similar to learning to time powerups. It can help you as a flag runner, but I prefer to use it in combat and I have definitely benefited in a firefight by using this tactic.

scapegoat

10-27-2006, 07:40 PM

fuegerstef

10-27-2006, 08:39 PM

By the dodge jump removal the game IS being dumbed down.Dumb is kinda harsh and Dumbed isn't even a word,but making killing easier is definitely what epic is doing.The spammier and easier it is the more will play and I think we know what more players translates into.I guess UT2004 was just too hard for alot of newcomers.

Actually, dodge jumping is useful for getting from A to B faster only anyways. Don't tell me me you usedodge jumping in a firefight? If you do, you should start playing people who can handle hitscan weapons.

Less people dodge-jumping = less people easy to kill for hitscanners.

Gearbox

10-27-2006, 09:04 PM

As far as your comment about a game holding your interest because its harder to master.

I agree with you,but frankly Epic seems to not.They actually are doing the exact opposite imo.The easier the game,more people play it which translates into more money.

New prospective players and the average casual UT player apparently outnumber the good,great,and leet.So who do you think the game will cater to?:rolleyes:
Morons outnumber intellectuals. America chose to re-elect Bush...... what more proof do you need?

Gearbox

10-27-2006, 09:13 PM

Actually, dodge jumping is useful for getting from A to B faster only anyways. Don't tell me me you usedodge jumping in a firefight? If you do, you should start playing people who can handle hitscan weapons.

Less people dodge-jumping = less people easy to kill for hitscanners.
Well, you're European, but more than a few consider Figment/8thGradeDropout to be one of, if not the best individual ONS player in NA. IMO he has a style that utilizes dodge-jumping very effectively in a firefight. Then again, there aren't many "top-tier" guys that play the way he does........

Just food for thought. Count me as one of those who think dodge-jumping adds considerable depth and effectiveness to playing ONS on foot. Will be interesting to see how Epic manages to bridge that gap. Methinks Hoverboards won't quite do it.....

Boksha

10-27-2006, 09:14 PM

I find it funny people somehow think having the ability to dodgejump makes the game more intelligent or skillful in any way tho'. :)
If you want an intelligent game, you're probably looking at the wrong franchise, nay, the wrong type of game alltogether.

Gearbox

10-27-2006, 09:22 PM

BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dodge-jumping adds more options, makes the game deeper IMO.

One of the aspects that makes UT2k* great is that movement skills are almost as important as aim. In ONS & CTF you could make a solid case that movement > aim.

Hey, if Epic can make the game mechanics at least as deep & addicting as 2k4 then giddee-up :)

fuegerstef

10-27-2006, 09:30 PM

One of the aspects that makes UT2k* great is that movement skills are almost as important as aim. In ONS & CTF you could make a solid case that movement > aim.

I see it this way (only IMHO opinion, of course). fast movememt from A to B aside. The most kills I get are on people dodge jumping. Least kills I get are on people staying grounded but moving well. And since Walldodge is still in in UT2007 there is no problem getting behind an oponent with that during a firefight.

[=CRU$hER=]

10-27-2006, 11:08 PM

I think what makes UT2004 so hard for beginners or even mid skilled players is the fact of dodging / dodge jumping + that the game is dominated about hitscan both together is hard and frustrates fast if you are playing against good ppls. Also it gets boring and old if other weapons are just inferior to it.

Now you have two options to solve it, either nerf the movement or nerf the hitscan weapons. Now they choosed the movement way, I dont know if its good we will see but ...

if I were Epic I would have nerfed the Shock primary and LG instead of the movement, I think the movement makes this game sooo damn unique.

For example you could have nerfed the range of Shock primary which would hit then only at mid range and not at unlimited range so you could still make good combos but if you are at mid range already others weapons would be good to use, too. For LG I dont know maybe the reload should be slower or give it a recoil, so if you are moving your crosshair would move around it still would be nice for big maps where other ppls dont spot you at first but wouldnt be anymore used for real fights where you can see each other.

But I have to say Iam either way happy, I really want more into the face battles, this shoot -> escape -> spam -> run round the whole map till you face again each other until someone is dead gets boring, dont you think so ?.

EDIT: One question, what all of the movement they are nerfing ? They only remove dodge jumping or wall dodge too ??

Mardok

10-28-2006, 02:04 AM

scapegoat

10-28-2006, 02:13 AM

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4575670367039182443&q=unreal+tournament+2007
Look at this

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3550190405782584516&q=unreal+tournament+2007
And this

Now tell me this game is dumbed down.

Less movement is "less" anyway you look at it.

MonsOlympus

10-28-2006, 04:22 AM

;24657577']I think what makes UT2004 so hard for beginners or even mid skilled players is the fact of dodging / dodge jumping + that the game is dominated about hitscan both together is hard and frustrates fast if you are playing against good ppls. Also it gets boring and old if other weapons are just inferior to it.

Now you have two options to solve it, either nerf the movement or nerf the hitscan weapons. Now they choosed the movement way, I dont know if its good we will see but ...

if I were Epic I would have nerfed the Shock primary and LG instead of the movement, I think the movement makes this game sooo damn unique.

For example you could have nerfed the range of Shock primary which would hit then only at mid range and not at unlimited range so you could still make good combos but if you are at mid range already others weapons would be good to use, too. For LG I dont know maybe the reload should be slower or give it a recoil, so if you are moving your crosshair would move around it still would be nice for big maps where other ppls dont spot you at first but wouldnt be anymore used for real fights where you can see each other.

But I have to say Iam either way happy, I really want more into the face battles, this shoot -> escape -> spam -> run round the whole map till you face again each other until someone is dead gets boring, dont you think so ?.

EDIT: One question, what all of the movement they are nerfing ? They only remove dodge jumping or wall dodge too ??

Apparently they are only removing dodge jump.

I see this as a big crutch for people, if they cant adapt then they are probably not as good at fps games at all. As far as I know there is only one which has this move and that is UT2k3/4. I mean its just silly that people are saying its being dumbed down and that its not going to be any good. The simple fact of the matter is that this is UT2007 not UT2k4, Epic do what you will please I know the fans could ruin this if they had input on everything.

There's still dodging and double jumping which also arnt in any other games as well as wall dodging, yeah totally dumb, thats like what 4xdodge 4xwalldodge and 1xdouble jump unless you include anims. Dodge jumping also makes double jumping usless in some ways.

Yeah Im not for or against it but I think for the sake of the series we should just let it die...

Moloko

10-28-2006, 11:30 AM

Kronos

10-29-2006, 06:22 AM

I believe the scale of skill in an online game isnt no more then 50 percent of what makes it last long. What makes an online game last long is its variety of options and abilities along with polishness, one game that easily describes what im pointing out is quake 4. Q4, even when its slowed down in comparison of quake 3 its still has a high limit of skill involved, but thats not what sucked about the game, what made the online play horrid was the fact that it had very little things to do on it(lack of options & maps).

Bishop Gantry

10-29-2006, 07:41 AM

The problem is this,with the top shock weapon players the only thing that keeps you alive is the dodge jump -some are that good with hitscan, the fear is everything will just be reduced to a contest for first to three hits or a combo then certain death whatever skill level. There are lots of very accurate shock people, but not so many who can be so accurate and dodge jump/combo at same time , dodge and hitscan is how the best players stay alive longer and is decisive in DM/ ONS

Then its a weapon ballance issue and has very little to do with movment overall... In the case of the shock rifle since you brought it up is that its good at any range when it should be at best average at any range exept for shock combos being good at inbetween close\medium range...

icewind

10-29-2006, 08:19 AM

Hedge-o-Matic

10-29-2006, 10:08 AM

I think what makes the movement of 2k4 so disorienting for some is the complete lack of a relation between the animation the character displays, and their motion. The skinnier characters are the worst, being nothing but splay-legged forms bouncing and cartwheeling in every direction, in complete disregard for what their limbs are doing. Even their running look absolutely horrible. People do not run like that, knees hiking up to their waist with every step. Good lord, go to track and gymnastic meets to see how people really move!

The lack of even a nod toward respecting inertia and momentum is what makes it so bad. People, rightly, expect a model human that looks real to respect some recognizable version of physics. As it is, everything in the game follows its own physics rules. Projectiles do one thing, vehicles do another, and the characters ignore everything except a strange approximation of gravity. Even inertia is handled strangely, since players are knocked about like a bounding box, rather than blasted off their feet as you would expect. How hard would it be to have characters knocked off their feet, and have to perform some "on your feet" maneuver? It could look pretty cool, if dome correctly.

The fact is that a person must push off a surface with their limbs to move in the opposite direction. To have animations showing characters kicking legs and flapping arms in all directions, while rebounding off walls and suddenly springing in strange angles, is the problem. As an example of how to do agility and movement correctly, look at Prince of Persia. Obviously, the characters can do things that violate physics, but familiar concepts like inertia, friction, and gravity are all respected. The character must crouch and kick off while jumping, absorb excess motion when changing direction, and use their limbs in a recognizable manner when vaulting, climbing, running or doing anything else. Even so, nobody can say the movement options in the game are dumbed down. They just respect a basic rules, so players can follow the action far more smoothly.

If characters can flip around, walldodge, roll, cartwheel, and anything else, fine. But make the animations respect a player's expectations, and you'd hear a lot fewer complaints.

os][ris

10-30-2006, 09:14 AM

The only thing those vids tell me is that we're going to need brightskins again. :rolleyes:

edit: oh, and the rocket explosions are hilariously oversized.

i like the rocket explosions..

darkuranium

10-30-2006, 09:31 AM

edit: oh, and the rocket explosions are hilariously oversized.
Well, relatively to UT2k4, yes. But if they were realistic, the explosions are hilariously UNDERsized ^^

Boksha

10-30-2006, 09:49 AM

Moloko: the stupidest thing you can do against someone with proper hitscan aim is dodgejumping without your shield up.
When you're airborne, you follow a nearly straight line which is VERY easy to lead against.

As for combos, you don't need dodgejumps to get away from those.

fuegerstef

10-30-2006, 10:56 AM

UT will no longer be fun for people looking for a challenge.

That's why we wait for the sequel named UT2007. :p

Da Spadger

10-30-2006, 11:19 AM

Less bounce=dumbing down?

Hey, dumbing down sounds better than dumbing up, amirite? :D

DagnyTaggart

10-31-2006, 08:49 AM

This isn't going to slow the player down is it? In Quake 4 you move like a brick. The whole point is the game should be hard to master ,that is what holds the interest of any decent gamer and allows for skills to be developed over a longer time frame. Noobs get owned, so what! We were all there once and getting better slowly was what kept my interest, unlike Doom 3, HL2 and Q4 which have single player games you quickly complete and inferior online play.

The original UT '99 had a good speed and server admins could easily bump it up if they felt so inclined (allowing the market to decide).

I don't see how removing UT 2004's floaty-dodge jumps would hurt the game at all. In fact, UT '99 had far more players online 24/7 two years after its release (2001) than UT 2004 did two years after its release (2006).

I'm hoping that Epic is getting rid of the super floaty Super Mario dodge jumps and returning to more conventional movement. The UT '99 movement was perfect IMHO.

scribly

10-31-2006, 09:26 AM

I wonder how long it will take for a mut to appear that puts the floating feeling back (same as low grav, but with a little more grav)

E-LurK

10-31-2006, 10:59 AM

Leave The ****ing Gravity alone, i like ut04 i mean it could be dumbed down just a little, but you people are makeing it like, its not UNREAL like this is ****ing counter strike or somethin....if you dont want dodge go play css......

fuegerstef

10-31-2006, 11:35 AM

All I am reading is "I can't shoot them if they keep moving around."

In fact, they are harder to hit if they are moving... ...moving on the gorund. Dodge-jumpers are easy to hit.

bctrainers

10-31-2006, 11:41 AM

All I am reading is "I can't shoot them if they keep moving around."

That sunds about rigt, just takes a lot of practice. :)

>>Gunslinger<<

10-31-2006, 11:47 AM

In fact, they are harder to hit if they are moving... ...moving on the gorund. Dodge-jumpers are easy to hit.

+1. My experience is that if I dd jump around I get pwnd.

Boksha

10-31-2006, 12:16 PM

Gunslinger play ctf for a bit. Learn what the double dodgejump is really for. Oh yeah, that's another good reason to remove them.

>>Gunslinger<<

10-31-2006, 12:19 PM

Gunslinger play ctf for a bit. Learn what the double dodgejump is really for.

Good point. I am a one game-type kind of guy. ONS RULES! Wait, is there still ONS? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

WARFARE (?!) RULEZ!

Spec7re

10-31-2006, 03:09 PM

I personally love everything about 2k4, except the Shock Rifle. I use the Shock Rifle a lot, and I don't care if it makes me a hypocrite, the freaking knockback effect seems too powerful. I can take someone out with a shock rifle only for the fact that the knockback that disrupts strafing, and lets you predict the next shot, along with the insanely high ROF makes it the best weapon in 2k4.

I started playing competetively FPS during Quake 3, and I came to UT2K4 from the 3W/RA3 Scene. I managed to keep myself busy for awhile with ONS and CTF (back in the early years with REAL CTF servers). When I started playing TAM, the rounds seem so much longer, and in TAM, 8v8+ was insane for team sizes. In RA3, it was usually 7v7-11v11, and the rounds were still faster. Why is that? The bunny-hopping, rocket jumping, and the railgun? The LG didn't need to be weakened, it was fine, there really is only the need for one hitscan w/ around 100 damage, players in Q3 were far more mobile and could dodge things easier. I think removing dodgejumping might fix a problem if they up the running speed, and replace the Dodgejump with a new type that doesn't propel you 15 feet but a little further than a dodge to make it actually useful. Make it so you could dodge projectiles, and not for mobility. The weapon damage made larger teams in RA3 seem less crazy, the Tri-Rockets could kill a group of 4 people if shot correctly. I know it's UT to have a multiple-rocket firing weapon, but maybe make a GOOD grenade-type weapon. Q3's did 80-100 damage (I don't remember the GL damage), and who know's the AR grenade? or who cares? AR Grenades bounced like gotdamned Flubber. But I think the key to fixing the main problem of movement is increase movement speed slightly, and change the DJ mechanic.

Revisiting the DJ real quick, maybe it could stay exactly the same as UT2004 but have a CS:S-esque effect. After you dodgejump, you slow down for a split second. But rocketeers and hitscanners could predict that a lot easier.
I hated Q4 for the record, I don't care about being able to slide around corners, I literally feel like I have all those guns slung around onto my back.

musilowski

10-31-2006, 03:56 PM

One word. Mutator.

They had it (slightly bugged though) in UT2004, why not in UT2007?

Xyx

10-31-2006, 04:21 PM

All I am reading is "I can't shoot them if they keep moving around."
That's interesting. I hear "i cant dodge ur spam with realistic movment".

And never the twain shall meet, I fear.

that's another good reason to remove them.
+1 for better CTF.

Make it so you could dodge projectiles, and not for mobility.
That would be great.

Boksha

10-31-2006, 04:27 PM

I use the Shock Rifle a lot, and I don't care if it makes me a hypocrite, the freaking knockback effect seems too powerful. You'd be a hypocrite if you thought the shock was too strong and DIDN'T use it all the time.

Bishop Gantry

10-31-2006, 05:32 PM

You'd be a hypocrite if you thought the shock was too strong and DIDN'T use it all the time.

Eh come again?...

Boksha

10-31-2006, 07:32 PM

If it's that good, why the hell wouldn't you use it?

MindRiot

10-31-2006, 07:39 PM

If it's that good, why the hell wouldn't you use it?

Yes, but that wouldn't make him a hypocrite, just foolish. :)

Bishop Gantry

11-01-2006, 05:00 AM

If it's that good, why the hell wouldn't you use it?

overpowered, unsportsmanship... of course such trivial things for pro players who gladly uses and abuses any glitch or bug they can come over just so they can get that competitive edge

Boksha

11-01-2006, 08:06 AM

So you shouldn't use it at all then? Or just "not too much"? Because if anything, rules with the word "too" in it tend to ruin the game a hundred times worse than an imbalanced weapon.

Bishop Gantry

11-01-2006, 08:55 AM

So you shouldn't use it at all then? Or just "not too much"? Because if anything, rules with the word "too" in it tend to ruin the game a hundred times worse than an imbalanced weapon.

Yeah I always got a great chukle out of it everytime I joined a server that had the assault rifles nerfed, the weakest weapon by far in the entire game:rolleyes: Or servers that had redeemers disabled...

More a case of Epic reballancing the weapons accordingly to either match the Shock rifle or change the Shock rifle to tone it down to the other weapons efficency curve,but then cant exept much from someone who claims Raptors cant get shoot down by shock rifle...

Shock rifle dosent add anything to gameplay it detracts from gameplay...

Boksha

11-01-2006, 09:02 AM

Uhh... what?

Bishop Gantry

11-01-2006, 09:17 AM

Uhh... what?

"not too much" rules wouldnt be required if the shock was properly ballanced, something wich is Epic's job and have had several patches and years on hand that easily could have rectified the situation multiple times over...

Boksha

11-01-2006, 09:37 AM

Not too much rules aren't required; the shock may be unbalanced, but the game is still more fun if everybody plays the best they can and tries to use the best weapons.

Bishop Gantry

11-01-2006, 09:54 AM

Not too much rules aren't required; the shock may be unbalanced, but the game is still more fun if everybody plays the best they can and tries to use the best weapons.

Only enjoyable for those whos personal prefference matches the best weapon... With such restrictions noone can even hope to build up a large enough playerbase to be worthwhile...

Boksha

11-01-2006, 10:44 AM

There are many things worse for a new player than getting owned by the same weapon over and over, but the worst is being told he can't use a certain weapon too much when he's finally doing well with it.
Trust me, unwritten "too much" rules do NOT work, and only serve those that go into the game with the intent of making things miserable for everyone by complaining about every death.

MonsOlympus

11-01-2006, 11:18 AM

Well I have to agree about the shock, in the beginning I made a point of not using it online because everyone would stick to the same 3 weapons (flakk/lgun/shock) on average. I wouldnt use the lgun either but I have started using them just to pickup a few loose frags not to over use it like alot of other people. Im just annoyed that my favourite weapons, being mainly projectile weapons arnt well balanced against their instahit counterparts.

Ofcoarse you can do well with rox, flakk, bio and link but to be as good as many people are with the shock you have to practise alot more. The shock rifle in my eye's isnt the hardest weapon in the game to master, neither is the lgun but it comes in alittle higher. I think the weapons hardest to master and use effectivly are the rox and the linkgun.

People seem to stick to which ever weapons get kills easiest I guess not which ones you actually need a very high level of skill to use. Mind you I have seen some very skilled shock players but they usually use alot more then 3 weapons because they have mastered the entire game.

Edit: oh yeah the flakk does take a bit of skill if you know how to bounce kills and use the secondary well. I just cant wait till the rox is worth that num8 position again, well close to highest usually. Maybe thats why people use shock all the time because its closer to the wasd, not that everyone uses that control scheme lol :p

tlc

11-01-2006, 12:33 PM

Edit: oh yeah the flakk does take a bit of skill if you know how to bounce kills and use the secondary well.

It aggravates me no end that more often than not I can easily hit a moving target with the flak secondary but couldn't hit the ground with the LG if I stood still and aimed... :mad: :confused:

MonsOlympus

11-01-2006, 12:45 PM

Did anyone else notice the lightning gun can actually shoot through objects? If you hit meshes on the corner its really easy to shoot through and Id have to check but I think it does it on the edges of bsp as well :confused:

I usually use it as an alternative to the ripper these days because of the unzoomed headshots :p

Xyx

11-01-2006, 06:24 PM

The lightning beam may twist, but the trace does not. The shock beam may appear to pass through objects, but those objects do not have precise collision.

Boksha

11-02-2006, 07:49 AM

Actually there is a different reason for that; with visible weapons on, the LG trace is not performed along the actual visible beam. Instead, it's performed from your exact camera location in the direction you're aiming.
In other words; whatever's behind your crosshair gets hit. Visibly, the beginning of the beam is adjusted to make it look like the beam came out of the gun, but this could cause the beam to intersect with a wall.
The instagib shockrifle works the same, but the regular shockrifle does not; that one starts the trace out a little in the direction of your weapon, making it much less likely to see the trace go through a wall.

xi0s

11-02-2006, 08:40 AM

Speed is also a matter of perception and perspective.

You mean speed is a matter of scaling. I think the original poster is really concerned about the proportional velocity, which basically is, how does the speed feel relative to the previous UT before it. The scaling in 2k7 won't be massively different than in 2k4 in my observations from trailers. I don't think the bounce reduction will slow peoples movements on the x axis, so much as the gravity will effect the z movement. Physics in a video game arent dictated by the laws of real physics, so the actual characters can move on the x axis and its not a question of gravity, its just a question of how fast they make the characters move. Just like in 2k4 you can change the gravity in instant action, but it doesnt affect your ground speed whatsoever.

xi0s

11-02-2006, 08:51 AM

Only enjoyable for those whos personal prefference matches the best weapon... With such restrictions noone can even hope to build up a large enough playerbase to be worthwhile...

First person shooter games will and always have relied on hitscan weapons, and they are here to stay. Its the reason why the best players are the best, and why their is even such a thing as competition. Aside from the fact it is the most dominating of weapons, the other weapons in the arsenal are still useful even in a fued of 2 great men going at it. There is no 'personal preference' about it. Its either kill or be killed, or play stupid games of lets all just use flak and rox spam because shock and lg are just too powerful and I dont like dying so easily. Learn to aim first, complain later. Complaining about people using only the best weapon will get you no-where, because it shows your lack of interest in getting good with that weapon as well, when its available to be used to you just as much as it is to them.

MonsOlympus

11-02-2006, 10:01 AM

Ummz tell me again which weapon was hitscan in quake, lolz jk ;)

Well really its kinda silly if the shock is the best weapon in the game it might as well get num8 or 9 instead of 4. Im still wishing for the good ole days of rox madness come back, then who will be the ones complaining hehehe :p

Xyx

11-02-2006, 03:37 PM

Ignorance.
Interesting observation from someone that fails to recognize room for improvement. The point is not "get good with shock or suck it up", the point is "should shock be that good?".

Bishop Gantry

11-02-2006, 04:44 PM

Ignorance. :cool:

First person shooter games will and always have relied on hitscan weapons, and they are here to stay. Its the reason why the best players are the best, and why their is even such a thing as competition. Aside from the fact it is the most dominating of weapons, the other weapons in the arsenal are still useful even in a fued of 2 great men going at it. There is no 'personal preference' about it. Its either kill or be killed, or play stupid games of lets all just use flak and rox spam because shock and lg are just too powerful and I dont like dying so easily. Learn to aim first, complain later. Complaining about people using only the best weapon will get you no-where, because it shows your lack of interest in getting good with that weapon as well, when its available to be used to you just as much as it is to them.

specialisation leads to extinction like the dinosaurs only catering to one playingstyle deters more players than it attracts...

better players beats you with a weaker weapon than your using, if they are using a better weapon than you are using they are just compensating their lack of skill with a better weapon...

hmm decisions, decisions attract a larger player base by encouraging personal playing styles or restrict personal playing styles to a self destructive minority...

Yeah because diversity is really bad if you want to attract a larger playerbase...

"learn to aim":rolleyes:

I want a game thats ballanced and caters to diversity and encourages people to develop their own personal playing styles, you obviosly dont want a ballanced game neither do you like personal diversity or that people hone their own skills but only allow them to conform to the "allowed skills"...

The Shock is anti air, anti ground, anti veichle, anti infantry, anti node, anti projectile, good at any range, incapacitating and Im sure I missed a couple other things its good at aswell not to mention infringing on dedicated weapons in terms of usefullness...

I find a weapon thats capable of doing anything short of healing a node to be a rather boring piece of equipment, the point of a jack of all trades weapon is that it can do everything however it isnt very good at it wheres the shock is the opposite can do everything and is good in every way, this is what makes the shock detarct from gameplay rather than adding anything to gameplay...

And the Shock being avalible to me or anyone else makes the shock ballanced against other weapons how exactly? *slaps forehad* thats right you dont belive in ballance and you dont belive in diversity...

Xyx

11-02-2006, 05:39 PM

If shock is the only way then what is the point in even offering other weapons? If you like playing with shock to the exclusion of all else, use the arena mutator.

xi0s

11-02-2006, 07:24 PM

specialisation leads to extinction like the dinosaurs only catering to one playingstyle deters more players than it attracts...

huh?

better players beats you with a weaker weapon than your using, if they are using a better weapon than you are using they are just compensating their lack of skill with a better weapon...

That analogy is just bad. You put forth a generic situation and try to come to a universal conclusion, and still don't make sense in the proccess. A better player beats me with a weaker weapon than I am using? Whoop it dee doo? It happens all the time. Just cause I'm using a better weapon doesnt mean I'm going to be perfect with it all the time and that someone else isnt able to counter that by effectively using an overall less 'dominating' weapon aka as you put it 'weaker' weapon.

Compensation of skill? So your effectively saying that with skill shouldnt use a better weapon? Rofl :rolleyes: Riiiiiiiiiiight.

hmm decisions, decisions attract a larger player base by encouraging personal playing styles or restrict personal playing styles to a self destructive minority...

No its attract a larger playerbase by keeping in the heart and soul of what UT has always been, only better by mixing whats good of old UT and new UT and taking out whats bad. Since when was personal playing styles not encouraged? Everyone in any competetive sport will always have their own playing style, regardless there will always be what wins games. And learning to use all weapons is key, learning to use hitscan is key.

Self destructive minority? Are you kidding me. So that must mean that the people that actually keep this game alive and competetive = minority. You seem to know little about the community then. How is what even self destructive? You really are hardly making any sense here. Feel free to provide me with some scenarios to back up your generalizations.

"learn to aim":rolleyes:

I want a game thats ballanced and caters to diversity and encourages people to develop their own personal playing styles, you obviosly dont want a ballanced game neither do you like personal diversity or that people hone their own skills but only allow them to conform to the "allowed skills"...

The Shock is anti air, anti ground, anti veichle, anti infantry, anti node, anti projectile, good at any range, incapacitating and Im sure I missed a couple other things its good at aswell not to mention infringing on dedicated weapons in terms of usefullness...

I find a weapon thats capable of doing anything short of healing a node to be a rather boring piece of equipment, the point of a jack of all trades weapon is that it can do everything however it isnt very good at it wheres the shock is the opposite can do everything and is good in every way, this is what makes the shock detarct from gameplay rather than adding anything to gameplay...

I actually love diversity, and UT has plenty of it. If you cant get good at 'aim' aka 'allowed skills' then perhaps you should move on to a different kind of first person shooter. I don't know how many fps are out their that actually even come close to the diversity that UT offers. Apparently you didnt read the part where I stated other weapons in the game are still useful (see: weapon balance). And um, no shock is not good at any range. Shock is better as a mid-range weapon, which is ideally where most fights take place. Long range is sniper, close range is flak and rockets. And you say shock is great at everything, well I can tell you it is not the best at anything or everything, and I know for a fact or else I wouldnt be using any other weapons just like every single person in the competetive community knows.

And the Shock being avalible to me or anyone else makes the shock ballanced against other weapons how exactly? *slaps forehad* thats right you dont belive in ballance and you dont belive in diversity...

It make it balanced against the other player, not so much the weapons. Meaning you can 'hone' your own skills with that weapon as well. If you don't like hitscan dominating games, then perhaps unreal is not the kind of fps you should be playing. No matter what there will always be a hitscan weapon and that weapon is going to be used by the best and is still the future of ut. There is no question about it. To say it detracts from gameplay is just ridiculous. I dont think I could enjoy this game if it was just a big spamfest (which detracts from skill and adds more elements of luck).

Gregori

11-02-2006, 08:19 PM

Meaning you can 'hone' your own skills with that weapon as well. If you don't like hitscan dominating games, then perhaps unreal is not the kind of fps you should be playing.

Every other title by the name of Unreal was less hitscan dominated than UT2kx. UT2kx was the exception in the series. If you don't like hitscan dominated games then perhaps Epic is going to fix the series in UT2007!

MonsOlympus

11-03-2006, 01:46 AM

Ok I hope you dont mind but I pulled the pieces out of that I wanted to respond to.

...
Everyone in any competetive sport will always have their own playing style, regardless there will always be what wins games. And learning to use all weapons is key, learning to use hitscan is key.

Well I can agree about the competativness statement but... Whether a play style is effective is where the key is. Say I prefer bio/mini/rox over shock/flakk/lgun then which play style is superior, its obviously the latter since it is so dominant in 2004. A game must not only cater to those play styles but also make all of them effective enough to be competative with.

......
And um, no shock is not good at any range. Shock is better as a mid-range weapon, which is ideally where most fights take place. Long range is sniper, close range is flak and rockets...

Well in UT99 the rox was more effective at longer ranges with the homing ability. Yeah I can use it in 2k4 but when your up against a shock core you really got no chance, since if I hit the core with the rox they explode and by the time it takes me to load up home and fire I would have been shombo'd. Even the secondary on the flakk seemed to have a longer range in UT99. Now though the game revolves around hidenscan :(

.....
To say it detracts from gameplay is just ridiculous. I dont think I could enjoy this game if it was just a big spamfest (which detracts from skill and adds more elements of luck).

Im kinda insulted by this, you really think there arnt people who can use projectile weapons like crazy. Hitting someone with an air rox from long range is a skill worthy of awe, hitting someone with a shock beam is boring and no where near as skillful. Really if you want to talk about spamfest's lets talk about shockcores shall we!

I guess I just wanted to point out my preferred play style although catered for with weapons is no where near effective against the usualy alternative. I dont think that makes me a bad player just an unlucky one.

Boksha

11-03-2006, 07:46 AM

Ignorance. :cool:

First person shooter games will and always have relied on hitscan weapons, and they are here to stay. Its the reason why the best players are the best, and why their is even such a thing as competition. You call others ignorant yet you say hitscan is the reason there's competition?
That's pretty ironic. Most pros have a hitscan accuracy around 50-60%, and the differences there tend to be small. You're saying those small differences are what fuels the competetive scene? I don't think so...

And yes, shock primary is currently good at any range, including close range and long range.

Piglet

11-03-2006, 08:41 AM

Is there any doubt that ut2004 is over-hitscan dominated? If it wasn't then people would use projectile weapons more of the time.

Anyway, on topic...my guess is that less bounce will be dumbed down. We'll get what we're given though. If dumbing down means more players then it means more revenue to Epic.

Spec7re

11-03-2006, 03:39 PM

Less hitscan would occur if projectiles were better.

Up rocket speed and reduce the damage

Ignorance. :cool:

First person shooter games will and always have relied on hitscan weapons, and they are here to stay. Its the reason why the best players are the best, and why their is even such a thing as competition. Aside from the fact it is the most dominating of weapons, the other weapons in the arsenal are still useful even in a fued of 2 great men going at it. There is no 'personal preference' about it. Its either kill or be killed, or play stupid games of lets all just use flak and rox spam because shock and lg are just too powerful and I dont like dying so easily. Learn to aim first, complain later. Complaining about people using only the best weapon will get you no-where, because it shows your lack of interest in getting good with that weapon as well, when its available to be used to you just as much as it is to them.

Hah.

That's UT.

IMO to reduce the dominance of hitscan is to increase movement speed and mobility.

Nagashi

11-03-2006, 07:17 PM

I think It will work, If the game is going to look realistic, its good that atleast it will play realistic.
Its called Unreal..... if I wanted realistic I would play CS:Source or Battlefield or any other number of games out there that have no doubledodge/jump, shockrifles and etc.. and get boring fast.

Xyx

11-04-2006, 09:13 AM

Way to go misinterpreting the use of "realistic". Cleary does not refer to "realistic" as in "dull and boring in an everyday sort of way" but as in "makes sense in an action-packed scifi sort of way".

Silvester[AUT]

11-14-2006, 05:34 AM

Nagashi?
U use my INGAME AVATAR NAME :eek:
Shame on you. The name is out of heroes of might and magic 3. but on the other hand:rolleyes: what an honor.

There will always be hitscan weapons. We do not got Alice's wonderland here.
And I will not miss dodge jump. We not got Matrix here neither.

xi0s

11-14-2006, 09:12 AM

You call others ignorant yet you say hitscan is the reason there's competition?
That's pretty ironic. Most pros have a hitscan accuracy around 50-60%, and the differences there tend to be small. You're saying those small differences are what fuels the competetive scene? I don't think so...

And yes, shock primary is currently good at any range, including close range and long range.

You don't have to be a pro to be in the competetive scene. Pros that do hit 50-60% are very very rare, and not even consistently above 50%. Most competetive players that are really good hit between 40-50%. There are still people really good who hit lower, but play very smart (see: HateBreed), and beat people who hit much higher. Theres hundreds of examples of this. Those are hardly small differences, especially given the fact that aside from the top 1% of players hit that high%, theres still plenty of people below them who are all on a very similar skill level, but aim does not divide them all apart, by far. Im hardly saying the differences in accuracy are what fuels competitiveness. I'm saying a game that isn't entirely spam weapons-based is 1 reason why this game is not like many other games, and can still be a great game, while being hitscan dominating.

And I'm also saying if you have a problem with this hitscan domination, then its probably due to the fact learning to aim even above 40% is too difficult to attain then you have other games you can be good at without having to worry about that.

xi0s

11-14-2006, 09:31 AM

Ok I hope you dont mind but I pulled the pieces out of that I wanted to respond to.

I dont mind, this is what forums are for.

Well I can agree about the competativness statement but... Whether a play style is effective is where the key is. Say I prefer bio/mini/rox over shock/flakk/lgun then which play style is superior, its obviously the latter since it is so dominant in 2004. A game must not only cater to those play styles but also make all of them effective enough to be competative with.

Its really not whether you prefer one weapon so much as the other, its knowing what weapon to use in what situation, effectively. You may choose between a few different weapons for situations, but being selective between only 3 certain weapons in all situations is downright handicapping yourself.

Well in UT99 the rox was more effective at longer ranges with the homing ability. Yeah I can use it in 2k4 but when your up against a shock core you really got no chance, since if I hit the core with the rox they explode and by the time it takes me to load up home and fire I would have been shombo'd. Even the secondary on the flakk seemed to have a longer range in UT99. Now though the game revolves around hidenscan :(

Ive never had an extreme problem all the time of going up against someone with a shock core. You can either use your shield, fight back with a shock core, translocate around, spam weapons around corners before they see you, etc, etc. Point being there is always tactics against any weapon. Its also the timing of the weapons and how you counter the other person. Do you really think people who are really good with hitscan only use those weapons all the time?

Im kinda insulted by this, you really think there arnt people who can use projectile weapons like crazy. Hitting someone with an air rox from long range is a skill worthy of awe, hitting someone with a shock beam is boring and no where near as skillful. Really if you want to talk about spamfest's lets talk about shockcores shall we!

I actually love projectile weapons, and know many many people who are excellent with them. If I came across insulting, it was unintentional. But even the best projectile thrower isnt going to always win against a great hitscanner. Theres no sense in this argument. The point I was making is that all weapons are useful, attempting to only be good at one end of the spectrum, will only get you so far and weaken your overall effectiveness of being good. Shock-cores as spam, sure why not. You can still dodge them though just like any other spam projectile weapon, they don't kill you every time and move slower than rox/flak, and you can usually give people a hard time who can't do moving combos very well.

I guess I just wanted to point out my preferred play style although catered for with weapons is no where near effective against the usualy alternative. I dont think that makes me a bad player just an unlucky one.

When I think of playstyle, I dont usually tend to think of what weapons someone uses the most, I usually think of how they use them effectively, how they play mentally against other people (aggressive, passive aggressive, defensive, control freak, adaptive, amazing prediction, playing to your opponents abilities perfectly, using projectile weapons overall more than hitscan, very very good with one certain weapon hitscan or not, not so good with others, in-your-face playstyle). Those are all things that come to mind. This is really only touching the surface because I was only referring to simple DM. When you get into other gametypes such as CTF, whole other skills and traits come out

MonsOlympus

11-14-2006, 10:23 AM

aggressive,control freak, adaptive, amazing prediction, using projectile weapons overall more than hitscan,in-your-face playstyle.

Thats me, I just find it hard to find my spot in ut2004. Im beaten alot online but never by someone with a similar playstyle to mine. Dunno why that is but I always saw it as a flaw in UT2k4 because it works perfect in UT99. My movement abilities and aim are top notch, its just I dont use zoom/sniper much at all. Like I said I use shock and lgun more then I used to and it gives me acouple of extra frags here and there but it still doesnt wiegh up enough to make me competative.

I just doubt Im getting worse at games, maybe people are generally getting better. Ive got 20/20 and am only 25 so I really doubt Im getting too old for gaming, I think its just over specialisation on the part of most players. I enjoy alot of other games and dont just play one till I can pwn with my eyes shut....

I dunno, all I know is something is wrong...

os][ris

11-14-2006, 11:11 AM

i thought i ended this thread a lonnnnng time ago...

os][ris

11-14-2006, 11:15 AM

You don't have to be a pro to be in the competetive scene. Pros that do hit 50-60% are very very rare, and not even consistently above 50%. Most competetive players that are really good hit between 40-50%. There are still people really good who hit lower, but play very smart (see: HateBreed), and beat people who hit much higher. Theres hundreds of examples of this. Those are hardly small differences, especially given the fact that aside from the top 1% of players hit that high%, theres still plenty of people below them who are all on a very similar skill level, but aim does not divide them all apart, by far. Im hardly saying the differences in accuracy are what fuels competitiveness. I'm saying a game that isn't entirely spam weapons-based is 1 reason why this game is not like many other games, and can still be a great game, while being hitscan dominating.

And I'm also saying if you have a problem with this hitscan domination, then its probably due to the fact learning to aim even above 40% is too difficult to attain then you have other games you can be good at without having to worry about that.

Also, have you ever in your life played competitive tdm? You seem to have a lot to say about competitive players but i've never heard of you and i was competitive 1v1 in 2k3 and beginning of 2k4.

Drakas

11-14-2006, 11:45 AM

This is crazy...

If dodge jumping going to be removed? :confused:

Some people don't even understand how the game works, really.
First of all, if you aren't good enough to play against professionals, go to other servers, with your friends, just to have fun! You don't need to come to the world's best clan's server if you are new to the game, do you? Why are you complaining?

Why are people complaining that by dodge-jumping, you will not die? This is part of the game. You spend time building up your skills if you are a good player. Maybe the floatiness in the game is too big - would need better speed - but really, take it other way!

After all, its the pro-gamers that drive the game, not the new people. New people are supposed to learn how to play the game. Yes, I had god Unreal Tournament GOTY. I started from the singleplayer where I was being owned by a bot. But the idea was to be able to finish the tournament, or even go onto the Masterful level. I spent a lot of time till I got UT2004 and at that time, I hhad mastered many skills and learned how to play. I was one of the best people in servers really. Now I decreased because I didn't play UT2004 anymore - I found another game that is even faster than UT2004!

After all - isn't the game about killing and surviving? What's your problem? You seem to want to get easier kills to survive but want to get killed faster too?

Dodge-jumping enemies are harder to shoot - so what? They are not there for you to kill. They are there for you both to fight, using skills. For example, people who are dodge-jumping have way better skills than the people who really don't do that. You improve by learning how to survive, and not how to die.

That's why I hate slow-paced games like Counter Strike - you are just walking and shooting - no fun at all! Just extremely boring!

It's a pity that the gaming market is concentrating on all the noobs instead of the pros and upcoming pros that are currently newbies ;)

The game is supposed to be hard and I'd love it to be that way.

I'll have to wait for a demo of UT2007 before buying, cause I don't wanna buy a piece of crap where noobs can be as good as professionals.

I've spent two years on playing - improving my skills all the time. Now somebody like me wouldn't like somebody new owning me, would he/she? Of course not!

Players who spend a lot of time - they invest into entertainment and ability to survive in the game. If you're no good, then improve, and don't cry saying that you can't shoot that person.

In real life, you won't just become a scientist who works with genetics - you will need to learn! Everything must be invested in!

(and yeah, this post also shows that I hate cheaters!)

Boksha

11-14-2006, 12:12 PM

After all, its the pro-gamers that drive the game, not the new people. Um... no.
What drives a game is new people liking the game and staying with it to get better.

Magwa

11-14-2006, 01:04 PM

absolutely correct Mr. Boksha pro gamers lol what a joke (no insult intended) but they being people who actually make a living playing games might be 3 % of all the people playing Ut games..it is the new people who get involved and then rent servers,make maps etc.while the pro's have their servers locked(and rightly so) it is the average gamer who ENJOYS the game that supports it's longevity...Have you ever played the original UT? i don't mean casually but seriously play the game ?it is much faster paced and with much more powerful weapons and you do NOT need Dodge Jumping wall dodging or a shield gun to survive all you need is to play the game and learn the skills...

The5thviruz

11-14-2006, 01:22 PM

something
Can you at least TRY and read what you type before you submit it? All your text seems to run together.

MonsOlympus

11-14-2006, 01:32 PM

After all - isn't the game about killing and surviving? What's your problem? You seem to want to get easier kills to survive but want to get killed faster too?

Yeah this is what I want, I want the whole game to be faster including projectiles. It shouldnt be about surviving as such but getting as many frags as quick as you can. UT2k4 for me was too defensive and took away from what UT99 did so well, I liked the additions like the shieldgun but every weapon has a place IMO the shieldgun has no place in FFA DM.

bctrainers

11-14-2006, 01:57 PM

Yeah this is what I want, I want the whole game to be faster including projectiles. It shouldnt be about surviving as such but getting as many frags as quick as you can. UT2k4 for me was too defensive and took away from what UT99 did so well, I liked the additions like the shieldgun but every weapon has a place IMO the shieldgun has no place in FFA DM.

What about the redeemer also? People say its useless in a FFA match... ;)

Xyx

11-14-2006, 02:24 PM

Competitive gamers... weren't they the people that convinced Epic to take UT99's excellent gameplay apart and devolve it into the virtual pissing contest that was UT2003?

These people can make a very valuable contribution to a game in development, but not where attracting new players is at stake. I certainly hope Epic includes competitive gamers in their development process, but only to point out small balancing issues and not to revise major gameplay features.

MonsOlympus

11-14-2006, 02:43 PM

xi0s

11-14-2006, 02:45 PM

[ris;24689336']Also, have you ever in your life played competitive tdm? You seem to have a lot to say about competitive players but i've never heard of you and i was competitive 1v1 in 2k3 and beginning of 2k4.

I have played a lot with competetive tdm'ers for years now. Used to be a day comer at both fractionary and purgatory, was never very active on the ladders, except ctf. I also was with ugodz for a while when they stormed 12-0 on the tdm ladders and ranked a notch below Gryffindor. Ask CC, Pyrogenix or xTc who I am, or anyone in the competetive CTF community who I am. I've lanned with both of them @ TXGF 2006. I am not anywhere near as good as a lot of those guys, but I've been playing the game long enough to know what strengths and weaknesses are needed to be the best from watching and playing with them. I've never claimed to be very good myself, but I know enough from experience and watching other great players, what makes them so great. And I know that I can still hold my own with a group of people who's aim is miles above mine.

Garcia y Vega

11-14-2006, 03:04 PM

os][ris

11-14-2006, 03:26 PM

Thread title says "Less bounce = dumbing down?" Does anyone deny this is true? Even Mark Rein says they are trying to reduce the number of possible moves so a newbie can hit more. Less bounce IS dumbing down.. whether the game is better or more successful "dumbed down" is a debate to be had. (ps i didn't read the last 17 pages of this...)

The term "dumbed down" has a negative connotation in this thread. For some reason people think that if the game has less moves then it will be easier for newbs to get kills on you and the people they claim to be better than will now be on the same level. The aforementioned argument is absurd. Skill is not based on what movement is available in the game. If you have more SKILL then another player then you will always be better then said player. The lack of dodge jump should not affect you. I've said it before in this t hread and i'll say it again. If you are relying on dodge jumping and shield gun and wall dodge to maintain your superiority over other players then you DO NOT HAVE true SKILL!

UT did not have dodge jump or wall dodge or shield and this argument never came up. Most of the people complaining about the lack of dodge jump have never played UT, go figure. UT's movement was enough to separate it from the myrid of other fps' avaible and to me it still is (i dont mind wall dodge actually). All the people complaining that it will be just like counter strike or *insert ww2 shooter here* are just talking out of their ass..

Wail of Suicide

11-14-2006, 03:58 PM

Drakas

11-14-2006, 03:59 PM

[ris;24689732']The term "dumbed down" has a negative connotation in this thread. For some reason people think that if the game has less moves then it will be easier for newbs to get kills on you and the people they claim to be better than will now be on the same level. The aforementioned argument is absurd. Skill is not based on what movement is available in the game. If you have more SKILL then another player then you will always be better then said player. The lack of dodge jump should not affect you. I've said it before in this t hread and i'll say it again. If you are relying on dodge jumping and shield gun and wall dodge to maintain your superiority over other players then you DO NOT HAVE true SKILL!

UT did not have dodge jump or wall dodge or shield and this argument never came up. Most of the people complaining about the lack of dodge jump have never played UT, go figure. UT's movement was enough to separate it from the myrid of other fps' avaible and to me it still is (i dont mind wall dodge actually). All the people complaining that it will be just like counter strike or *insert ww2 shooter here* are just talking out of their ass..
I may sound noob, but what is wall dodge? I really havent done anything with the walls ;)
and dodge jump - is it for example double press to the right (+ jump), correct?

Boksha

11-14-2006, 05:23 PM

You don't have to be a pro to be in the competetive scene. Pros that do hit 50-60% are very very rare, and not even consistently above 50%. Most competetive players that are really good hit between 40-50%. There are still people really good who hit lower, but play very smart (see: HateBreed), and beat people who hit much higher. Theres hundreds of examples of this. Those are hardly small differences, especially given the fact that aside from the top 1% of players hit that high%, theres still plenty of people below them who are all on a very similar skill level, but aim does not divide them all apart, by far. Im hardly saying the differences in accuracy are what fuels competitiveness. I'm saying a game that isn't entirely spam weapons-based is 1 reason why this game is not like many other games, and can still be a great game, while being hitscan dominating. You're not making sense. First you say hitscan weapons are "why their is even such a thing as competition" [sic], now you seem to take to a more conventional view that it isn't hitscan accuracy that determines who wins in a top duel.
But if it isn't hitscan accuracy that makes competetive gaming interesting, why would it be a bad thing if hitscan was made less important?

Also, I find it funny you're saying that if you don't like hitscan you should go play another game. Hmm... what games could you be talking about? Certainly not the slew of WW2 or counter terrorist games that ONLY have hitscan weapons (and one or two types of grenades)... and you're probably not talking about regular Q3a either, because it's well known the rail and shaft are generally the most important weapons there.

So maybe we should all be playing CPMA then? :p (hmm... what did that abbreviation stand for again?)

If anything, it's not hitscan weapons that give UT it's unique feel but rather the non-hitscan weapons.

Twigstir

11-14-2006, 10:44 PM

Competitiveness can mean many things. I've always found that it's more fun when scores are closer togehter and the out come is in question until the end. When a middle of the road player can have a great match and rise to the top end of the score board. When even the players at the bottom have something positive to talk about.

Adding more death to the game isn't ripping the fun out of the game. It's adding fun into the game. You still win but getting more kills and getting killed less than your opponents.

A major difference between UT and UT2003/2004 was the number of deaths the top player would get on thier road to winning a match. I found UT more competitive and fun because the score board was much closer together with the added deaths.

UT was a great game because even those at the bottom of the score board had fun and wanted more. This is an FPS game and "killing" is the point and a major part of the fun of the game.

Less bounce = more bounce. More bounce in players positions on the score board.

CaFe

11-14-2006, 11:17 PM

Less bounce = more bounce. More bounce in players positions on the score board.

Way to come up with a slogan that totally makes logical sense. HANDICAPS FOR ALL, YAY!!

xi0s

11-15-2006, 12:34 AM

You're not making sense. First you say hitscan weapons are "why their is even such a thing as competition" [sic], now you seem to take to a more conventional view that it isn't hitscan accuracy that determines who wins in a top duel. But if it isn't hitscan accuracy that makes competetive gaming interesting, why would it be a bad thing if hitscan was made less important?

Also, I find it funny you're saying that if you don't like hitscan you should go play another game. Hmm... what games could you be talking about? Certainly not the slew of WW2 or counter terrorist games that ONLY have hitscan weapons (and one or two types of grenades)... and you're probably not talking about regular Q3a either, because it's well known the rail and shaft are generally the most important weapons there.

So maybe we should all be playing CPMA then? :p (hmm... what did that abbreviation stand for again?)

If anything, it's not hitscan weapons that give UT it's unique feel but rather the non-hitscan weapons.

Hitscan is what makes it interesting, um because if there was no hitscan, how would you expect to fight people from a distance? Use projectiles all day in hopes of hitting something. That doesnt sound very fun to me. I'm not changing my views one bit. When did I change my view about who wins duels? All I stated basically was that hitscan doesnt have to dominate the game for someone to win, yet it is still neccessary.

If hitscan was made less important, then you'd have a more spammy, more projectile-based game and a much slower paced game. My view is nothing more than yin and yang. You need both types of weapons to balance each other out, but the fact that hitscan dominates more is purely to the fact that people can generally have better aim with hitscan. The problem lies in the fact that 'dominating' can be interpreted as something that is over-powering or eliminates the usefulness of other weapons. The fact remains, why is it such an issue if such a weapon really dominates over other weapons, when your opponent has just as much of a chance to be good with that weapon as well? Make the hitscan less important, why? Its fine where it is. I suggest other games as an *alternative* to cater to particular people who disagree with this thought proccess.

And no we shouldnt all be playing CPMA, I dont even understand the relevance there. If anything we could try playing a game like Warsow, but that game is still highly under-developed.

And no I'm not refering neccessarily to all of the WW2 games which are only hitscan, in fact they arent only hitscan, they are a ton spam too, with guns that are just as effective as a minigun, spray and pray, duh. I was essentially thinking of something like HALO, painkiller, CoD, and the likes of games to come.

CaFe

11-15-2006, 12:44 AM

comparing halo, painkiller, cod, and the likes is like comparing apples to peanut butter

The unfortunate TRUTH about that analogy of yours is: THAT APPLES AND PEANUT PUTTER GO WONDERFULLY TOGETHER. That is the end of my rebuttal you emotional sissy girly man.

Garcia y Vega

11-15-2006, 07:40 AM

[ris;24689732']The term "dumbed down" has a negative connotation in this thread. For some reason people think that if the game has less moves then it will be easier for newbs to get kills on you and the people they claim to be better than will now be on the same level. The aforementioned argument is absurd.

You should tell that to Mark Rein because that is how he explains why dodge jump is removed in a recent interview... I agree with his logic, but would still prefer to play a less newbie friendly game. Just like I would rather play chess than checkers....

checkers (ut 99) vs chess (2k4)

They are similar games, both using a checkered board with peices where you win by capturing the other players pieces, Both Chess and checkers have a limited number off moves any given piece can make.

Checkers is an easy game for a newbie to play because he doesn't need any previous knowledge of the game to put up a good fight. Put a newbie checkers player vs a pro checkers player (LOL) and it will be a battle!

Chess is not an easy game to pick up. A newbie chess player vs a pro chess player will get absolutly owned. The newbie will be hit with moves he doesn't even see comming(just like my lg shots i know).

If you took a 100 people who had never played chess or checkers before, taught them both and told them to pick the 1 that was more fun, they would probably tell you checkers...If then you tried to sell them either checkers board or a chess set, which one would sell more?

So the real question is, Do you play checkers or chess? Just something to think about.

danseko

11-15-2006, 08:19 AM

They removed dodge jump and not dodging???
HOO ****ING RAY! :D:D

Dodgejumping sucked ass.. it completely broke up the pace of the game, the simple
dodge alone was a genius move. Adding dodgejumping was dumbing the game down
in a major way, not the opposite as the topic suggests.

And no, Q3/Q4 is not slow moving at all, especially not after the last big patch. =)

UT2k7 looks like a treat though.

Xyx

11-15-2006, 09:42 AM

If anything, it's not hitscan weapons that give UT it's unique feel but rather the non-hitscan weapons.
Doubleplusone.

Compare: Assault Rifle, Minigun, Sniper Rifle
Flak Cannon, Biorifle, Link Gun
Which list do you associate more with the Unreal franchise?

if there was no hitscan, how would you expect to fight people from a distance?
With faster projectiles, like the UT2007 Link Gun appears to have.

If hitscan was made less important, then you'd have a more spammy, more projectile-based game and a much slower paced game.
You think 16-player rocket arena Gael DM is slower than 4-player lightning arena Goliath TDM? It all depends on the situation. Projectile gameplay requires a different type of map.

hitscan dominates more is purely to the fact that people can generally have better aim with hitscan.
Nah. Hitscan dominates because shock and lightning are still great up close while projectiles all suck at range. Halve the fire rates for shock and lightning and the balance is restored.

The problem lies in the fact that 'dominating' can be interpreted as something that is over-powering or eliminates the usefulness of other weapons. The fact remains, why is it such an issue if such a weapon really dominates over other weapons, when your opponent has just as much of a chance to be good with that weapon as well?
Balance is never the issue, variety is.

would still prefer to play a less newbie friendly game. Just like I would rather play chess than checkers....
It is possible to combine depth and newbie friendliness.

MonsOlympus

11-15-2006, 10:03 AM

I find it funny how people associate hitscan accuracy with skill, to me its the physical attribute of hand eye coordination that accounts for most of the frags. Yeah hitscan requires atleast some skill to use effectivly and well but when compared to the full set of projectile weapons it pales in comparison. People just take the easy way out, its even better for them if they happen to have a decent internet connection, that goes back to my days of tfc online with 56k the snipers would always frag you before you knew it. One of the main reasons I prefer a Lan or just playing offline.

I think alot of people might be in for a "shock" with ut2007, Im really hoping for alot I think but if its the game I think it will be those poeple who rely on hitscan and dodge jump will be in the same position alot of us ut99 spam loving run & gunners are now. Im going to find it hard to be sympathetic myself because of the general attitude of alot of players, its not just about you but the UT community as a whole. Thanks!

xi0s

11-15-2006, 10:18 AM

With faster projectiles, like the UT2007 Link Gun appears to have.

Thats dumb. So lets make it like some mech warrior game and have everyone shooting pulses all over the place and call that very fun and skill full. No thats boring and slower paced, in fact too slow paced. I think people get more satisfaction when nailing an lg or several shocks in a row in combination with projectiles. Forcing the game to be more projectiles based is worse than making the game more hitscan based, imo.

You think 16-player rocket arena Gael DM is slower than 4-player lightning arena Goliath TDM? It all depends on the situation. Projectile gameplay requires a different type of map.

lol heck ya it is. 16 players with rockets means I'm likely to die from random rockets every other time I spawn. And this is if people are just as good with rockets as with lg. Not only that, but why would you compare one of the worst maps in the game as a basis for gameplay. Anyone can easily spawn camp in that map, besides the fact it is way too cramped to begin with. Projectile-based gameplay is only going to require a different kind of map, depending on how the weapons are designed, distance and damage area.

Nah. Hitscan dominates because shock and lightning are still great up close while projectiles all suck at range. Halve the fire rates for shock and lightning and the balance is restored.

hitscan is not usually as great up close as spam is. Example- maul inner base, throwing rox, combos, and flak, effectively kills of more people than you could with an lg/shock primary. Example- Citadel manhole. Example-several areas all around Campgrounds, up lifts, hallways, etc. Point- lg and shock dont have a high damage radius, therefore they are only effective up close if you a facing one person and you can aim very well, it still becoming more diffficult as people dodge around you if they are up close. At a distance, if someone is circle strafing, that makes it much more difficult to hit that person if they are really far, because they are changing the accuracy you need to hit them by a few pixels a few times a second. Mid-range is generally when people can be the most accurate and the most effective.

Halve the rates of shock and lg, lol. Why? To make them practically useless, and force people to use projectiles a ton more than they already do. I think not.

Balance is never the issue, variety is.

Well, balance goes hand in hand with variety. But even variety alone does not guarantee balance in gameplay, it is more dictated by all the factors combined like scaling, gamespeed, map design, weapon damage, player movement, etc.

It is possible to combine depth and newbie friendliness.

The balance is delicate and much easier said than done. We can only wait for 2k7 to really see this theory hold up to both of our standards.

MonsOlympus

11-15-2006, 10:23 AM

Well its not about making hitscan worse I think but bringing projectiles up to scratch, the weapon switch really needs some work though because being able to go shock/lgun/flakk in a matter of a second is bull!

A big skill is knowing when to have the right weapon out in advance not quick switching so damn quick it doesnt matter.

danseko

11-15-2006, 12:10 PM

checkers (ut 99) vs chess (2k4)

lawl, you definitely didn't play UT99, that's for sure.. ^^

When real-time gaming against humans, it is ALWAYS your opponent's
brain which defines the complexity of the game.

In turn-based gaming, however, complexity and game rules
do in fact set the skill, as you have unlimited time at your disposal.
Chess <-> checkers is a good example. However, this does NOT
transfer to real-time gaming in any way whatsoever.

And even in turn-based gaming, real-time parameters can have an
effect. Like in poker, for instance, a random/simple game which becomes a
strategic/cerebral game when played on a high level.

Cutting out dodgejump is just getting closer to the core of gameplay,
removing an un-necessary feature. A very good move (no pun intended) by Epic.

The dodgejump (2k3) was imo a big mistake, not from a complexity point of view,
where it added nothing, but because it completely screwed up the simple rhythm
and flow of UT99.

CaFe

11-15-2006, 12:39 PM

The dodge-jump being removed only means that there will be easier shots for me. Like I will literally never miss, ever.

Centurion

11-15-2006, 01:20 PM

This isn't going to slow the player down is it? In Quake 4 you move like a brick. The whole point is the game should be hard to master ,that is what holds the interest of any decent gamer and allows for skills to be developed over a longer time frame. Noobs get owned, so what! We were all there once and getting better slowly was what kept my interest, unlike Doom 3, HL2 and Q4 which have single player games you quickly complete and inferior online play.

True. Junior players will get owned anyway. If Epic thinks it will make noobs getting closer to advanced players than they are for most part wrong. Maybe a small part bud not even close. So than dodge gets removed, whats next??? This is what makes UNREAL so different from all other games. Recently I installed an other FPS, this normal walk thing is so complete boring. I removed it instantly and get back to UT2004. So Epic or Cliff please reconsider to lett that wonderfull dodge stay. It makes Unreal Tournament an game that no other can beat.

Scylla

11-15-2006, 01:38 PM

Compare:

Shock Rifle, Lightning gun, Ion painter
Rocket Launcher, Greande Launcher, Anti-vehicle rockets(AVRiL)

Which list do you associate more with the unreal franchise?

:rolleyes:

Oh and the most unique part in the link gun is not the projectile; it's the beam (which happens to be hitscan).

Nah. Hitscan dominates because shock and lightning are still great up close while projectiles all suck at range. Halve the fire rates for shock and lightning and the balance is restore

Totally screwing up the lightning gun and shock rifle will not help at all. People will still use the stinger, and havign projectiles so fast you can't dodge them anyway certainly isn't the answer.

You might aswell remove the SR and LG instead of halving the fire rate... Wait I mean Sniper rifle instead of LG.

danseko

11-15-2006, 02:42 PM

The dodge-jump being removed only means that there will be easier shots for me. Like I will literally never miss, ever.

You kinda "missed" (pun intended) the fact that the dodge-jump in 2k4
actually made you more predictable and easier to hit, though. :P

ZiGGy CBT

11-15-2006, 02:50 PM

as long as the keep it non nOob freindly

CaFe

11-15-2006, 03:33 PM

You kinda "missed" (pun intended) the fact that the dodge-jump in 2k4
actually made you more predictable and easier to hit, though. :P

No it didn't.

edit: UT has air-control you can alter the distance in midair. In no way did it ever made you more predictable, unless you were terrible and didn't know that.

Xyx

11-15-2006, 03:35 PM

So lets make it like some mech warrior game and have everyone shooting pulses all over the place and call that very fun and skill full. No thats boring and slower paced, in fact too slow paced.
How is 6 shots per second link gun any slower paced than an 0.7 shots per second lightning gun?

And yes, projectiles often require more skill to use. Not all of them have huge splash damage areas. Moving your mouse over your opponent's pixels and pressing a button is considerably easier than predicting where your opponent will be in 0.5 seconds and moving your mouse over those pixels before pressing a button. Try a match against people of your skill level using only grenades and link primary if you don't agree.

why would you compare one of the worst maps in the game as a basis for gameplay.
Worst according to what criteria? Some elitist opinion? It happens to be very popular despite that, so popular opinion says you're wrong.

Halve the rates of shock and lg, lol. Why? To make them practically useless, and force people to use projectiles a ton more than they already do. I think not.
Useless? What would you then use at long range? You'd still use these two, because only they fill that niche. That is how other games treat sniper rifles, and no way they're considered useless.

variety alone does not guarantee balance in gameplay
Of course not, but balance among weapons will guarantee variety among weapons.

projectiles are fine...as it is right now my kills are almost flat out even between flak, shock, lightning
That means 67% of hitscan weapons* and 13% of projectile weapons*. How is that fine?

It would have been fine if not everybody and their mom would have the exact same list as you.

* Not counting super weapons, AVRiL, shield or the abominable Assault Rifle, and counting sniper/lightning as one.

Compare:

Shock Rifle, Lightning gun, Ion painter
Rocket Launcher, Greande (sic) Launcher, Anti-vehicle rockets(AVRiL)Which list do you associate more with the unreal franchise?
I used two non-biased lists to make my point. Two of the weapons you name are Onslaught-only, one is only useful against vehicles and the other only against blind people.

That, and I'd hardly call the Ion Painter a hitscan weapon.

havign (sic) projectiles so fast you can't dodge them anyway certainly isn't the answer.
Do you not see the difference between a fast projectile and hitscan? I bet you think the AS-Mothership space ship lasers are projectile weapons.

as long as the keep it non nOob freindly
Yeah, great idea. Let's release a game that will draw in no new blood whatsoever, so that the Unreal community will die to attrition even before Epic has a chance to correct/repeat the mistake.