VCTF replacing CTF or what?

[iLL]

Ok I have read on sites,in mags,and heard in games vehicles will be included in standard CTF and I would appreciate a dev or someone who knows otherwise to kill this rumor.

I keep hearing that vehicles will be included in standard CTF play which worries me because I do not think Epic should force vehicles down our throats especially when we have Warfare with 18 of them.Nowhere I have read does it say CTF AND VCTF listed in the gametypes.Are we just to assume both will be in?

I just cannot see them doing that to all of the ole skoolers and CTFers who helped get them where they are.CTF is nearly included in every FPS multiplayer out there and is a very popular gametype so I would be astounded if it was not in UT2k7 or vehicles could not be excluded via mutator(or server config) if not included in a separate gametype.

Not all I read is true,but I sure would like to put my mind at ease and pass the word along.

For those of you who think its a dumb question ask yourself this.Has Epic every disappointed or surprised you with any changes in the series?

I have nothing against VCTF,its fun,but I prefer CTF.

[NotoriousBIC]

If I understood correctly, there's not going to be 2 seperate gametypes, just CTF. Wether or not there are vehicles is going to be dependant on the map itself (or mutators I would assume)

[Gregori]

Epic have never said anythin about cutting CTF, and the commmunity would cut their throats if they did such a thing, so its prretty safe to assume its in.

They have VDM already in their, so I'm assuming its going to be a map/mutator based thing.

A Vehicle version of CTF Lava giant would be a rocking map once it was resticted to land vehices!

[iLL]

They have VDM already in their, so I'm assuming its going to be a map/mutator based thing.



VDM-Uhh do you mean Vehicle Deathmatch?How hilarious.:D

Hmm,maybe they should call it....uh I don't know,how about Twisted Metal or Star Wars.Whats the use of guns then or even getting out of the vehicle?This vehicle stuff is just going overboard if that in fact is a game type.:rolleyes:

[Gregori]

VDM-Uhh do you mean Vehicle Deathmatch?How hilarious.:D

Hmm,maybe they should call it....uh I don't know,how about Twisted Metal or Star Wars.Whats the use of guns then or even getting out of the vehicle?This vehicle stuff is just going overboard if that in fact is a game type.:rolleyes:


Its not a gametype as such, Its more a map specific thing. Don't like it, don't play VCTF/VDM maps!

[da ghost]

VDM-Uhh do you mean Vehicle Deathmatch?How hilarious.:D

Hmm,maybe they should call it....uh I don't know,how about Twisted Metal or Star Wars.Whats the use of guns then or even getting out of the vehicle?This vehicle stuff is just going overboard if that in fact is a game type.:rolleyes:

what's wrong with introducing new gametypes?

[iLL]

what's wrong with introducing new gametypes?

Nothing so long as DM and standard CTF will always be there with the basic fundamentals of the game unaltered,which I think will be the case.

It just seems like every other game coming out has vehicles as the main focus of the game.I feel in time everything will just be vehicular warfare and that does not leave much room for ground combat imo.I think also I am a bit worried that in time DM and CTF will just phase out because so many have been pulled to vehicular warfare.

ONS just wasn't for me,but I may feel differently about UW.Just hope there still some DM and CTF action.If they're dead and UW is full,you can see where I would be a bit upset against vehicle addition to UT.ONS sucked alot of players in already.Just hope the 99ers will step up and fill the gap since many stayed with UT99 they too probably prefer ground over air battles.

Never said ONS or UW was not or will not be fun,I just prefer DM or CTF.

[Jrubzjeknf]

I assume it'll just be the gametype VCTF with a dropdownbox at the maplist where you can choose: With Vehicles/Without Vehicles/Both.

[Scylla]

Ok I have read on sites,in mags,and heard in games vehicles will be included in standard CTF and I would appreciate a dev or someone who knows otherwise to kill this rumor.


I have no idea where you heard that BS iLL.

[Xyx]

It's not bull****, it's a known fact for some time already. Epic wants the distinction between "vehicle/non-vehicle" gametypes gone. Vehicles are a map feature, not a gametype feature.

[ShredPrince]

I like VDM, but VCTF is a little nutty IMO.

All the veicle sheot is getting tired as crap to me.

It's liznaim.

I will not be buying UT07 for anything related to a vehicle.

[Scylla]

I like VDM, but VCTF is a little nutty IMO.

All the veicle sheot is getting tired as crap to me.

It's liznaim.

I will not be buying UT07 for anything related to a vehicle.


How can you actually like the idea of vehicle DM?

[Entropy]

Standard CTF and vCTF are (currently) considered one gametype and are both categorized under the umbrella name of "Capture the Flag". The presence/absence of vehicles in a map is dependant purely on the map itself. Some may have a separate set vehicles for both teams, some may have universal vehicles in the center, some will have no vehicles at all.

Don't worry, standard CTF is still a focus; we're just expanding things a bit by adding to the baseline "oldskool" gametype.

-E

[Scylla]

Standard CTF and vCTF are (currently) considered one gametype and are both categorized under the umbrella name of "Capture the Flag". The presence/absence of vehicles in a map is dependant purely on the map itself. Some may have a separate set vehicles for both teams, some may have universal vehicles in the center, some will have no vehicles at all.

Don't worry, standard CTF is still a focus; we're just expanding things a bit by adding to the baseline "oldskool" gametype.

-E

I think it's better to have them under different game types though.

[Sero]

I think it's better to have them under different game types though.

Finally, I get to agree with Scylla for a change ;)

I've never cared for vehicles, and I don't care if anyone else enjoys them as long as I get the choice to not have anything to do with them.

With CTF en vCTF being one gametype, I can just see all these pubs I'll be leaving when they switch to a vehicle map.. or worse, ladders with vehicle maps in them, screwing up the chance to avoid them on a competative level..

I cannot see any good in keeping it one gametype :(

[Xyx]

Avoiding maps with vehicles is like avoiding maps with the Flak Cannon. Problematic.

[Selerox]

I think it's better to have them under different game types though.

Absolutely agreed.

I don't think that there are many people at all who favour CTF and vCTF being under the same heading.

Lots of people aren't going to want to play CTF with vehicles (myself for one), so if I'm on a server that's going to keep switching to a map that I won't play, then the chances of me wanting to keep playing are going to be a hell of a lot less. Exactly the same is true for people who only want to play vCTF.

Combining them is going to frustrate and annoy a lot of players, and for absolutely no real benefit.

[AmericanWoman]

I think it's better to have them under different game types though.
I agree with you 1000%.
Vctf maps are geared for the use of vehicles. Just turning off vehicle use on a map will simply not do.

I am an avid CTF fan, and will not play Vctf until they do a MAJOR restructuring on the game play.

[Gregori]

I don't see the problem, just have the option to cycle CTF maps only!
Anyway, CTF Face will be the only map that is played when this game comes out!

[Flak]

I agree with you 1000%.
Vctf maps are geared for the use of vehicles. Just turning off vehicle use on a map will simply not do.

It's not a mod, it's map dependant. Either there are vehicles in the map, or there aren't.

[NeoPhoenixIIM]

Standard CTF and vCTF are (currently) considered one game type and are both categorized under the umbrella name of "Capture the Flag". The presence/absence of vehicles in a map is dependant purely on the map itself. Some may have a separate set vehicles for both teams, some may have universal vehicles in the center, some will have no vehicles at all.

Don't worry, standard CTF is still a focus; we're just expanding things a bit by adding to the baseline "oldskool" game type.

-E

Crap, we're boned. It's going to be AS all over again. Without distinction between VCTF and CTF, DM and VDM, every noob mapper is going to put vehicles in their DM and CTF maps. Then every time I go on a server, wanting to play regular DM or regular CTF I won't be able to because people will vote for VCTF and VDM maps ALL the time. It will no longer matter what game type you play under or whether the server is official or a pub, EVERY game type will be dominated by vehicles.

I Think I may have to change my vote on buying UT2007. Though Vehicle game types are fun for variety, I WILL NOT buy a vehicle dominated game. I need my base CTF and DM else it's not worth it.

You can't open up the gates to hell and then tell people "oh don't worry we didn't invite any demons through." It won't matter because the demon horde will come regardless just because you gave them the means to do so.


P.S. noob is only used because there is no other way to describe the stupidity of mappers that ruined AS, and will do so to CTF and DM if allowed.

[iLL]

Well thanks to you Epic guys for a reply and I do agree with the majority.Vehicles should not be forced upon us.

We have UW if we choose to check the vehicular combat out.

A separate gametype should be included and in all fairness there should be as many if not more CTF maps than VCTF imo.VCTF just came out and CTF has been around forever.Epic is doing many things to cater to the 99 players and get back to their roots as they say.If this is the case they should be offer many good maps for DM and CTF because its how it all started.The game rocked and there were no vehicles that I know of.

See I told you this was cause for concern.I just fear there will be little CTF and DM action because everyone wants to play Star Wars or Twisted Metal.

[Hedge-o-Matic]

It's not bull****, it's a known fact for some time already. Epic wants the distinction between "vehicle/non-vehicle" gametypes gone. Vehicles are a map feature, not a gametype feature.

The way it should be.

[NeoPhoenixIIM]

The way it should be.

If you want CTF and DM ruined maybe.

If I wanted an all vehicle based game there are some awesome military games I could buy instead of wasting money on UT.

[Xyx]

Why the worry? I'm sure plenty of server admins will feel the way you do and host maplists without any vehicles.

Moreover, heaps of classic community-made CTF maps are guaranteed to be remade, and none of them have vehicles.

What I wonder, though, is whether the translocator will also be a map feature. A weapon pickup, perhaps. Might be a good idea, since that would leave something for everyone: vehicles for the VCTF fans, translocators for the regular CTF fans and translocatorless CTF for the translocator haters.

[Sero]

Why the worry?

Why should we be dependent of the amount of server admins with taste (don't get me started) when all trouble could oh so easily be avoided?

No good will ever come from this.

[Boobigy]

I for one Love both CTF and vCTF but they are
very different gametypes atleast in the way they are played so just

CTF<-------|------->vCTF
split them I for one will still play both

[fuegerstef]

Why not make everything ONE gametype???

C'mon, seriously... ...if gametypes with and without vehicles are put into one gametype why not make everything the same. It is not such a big difference if you deliver an orb to a conduit or a flag to a base. And you shoot stuff in any gametype anyways!!!

[Sero]

Why not make everything ONE gametype???

C'mon, seriously... ...if gametypes with and without vehicles are put into one gametype why not make everything the same. It is not such a big difference if you deliver an orb to a conduit or a flag to a base. And you shoot stuff in any gametype anyways!!!

I think that's just about the perfect way of describing how most people feel about it.

The only reason I can think of to make it one gametype, is to achieve their goal of not having so many different gametypes that split up the community, but I can't imagine that this 'means' will manage to achieve that end. I can see a lot of CTF players deciding to move on to something else..

[Taleweaver]

Why should we be dependent of the amount of server admins with taste (don't get me started) when all trouble could oh so easily be avoided?

No good will ever come from this.
Let me ask you the same question: why should we be dependent on the amount of server admins without taste?

If all previous games are an indication, it will take less than 2 minutes to set up a server with a custom map list. Is it really that much to ask of a server admin to have a clue on what maps should and shouldn't be played?
Clients shouldn't have it too hard to find what they want either: they can just filter out CTF servers with or without translocator to get an idea where the (V)CTF servers are to be found.
And finally: to my knowledge, servers aren't blind dates. You can see which map is in progress by the time you join, so you know whether you will encounter vehicles or not (at least on the retail maps). Considering the conservative nature of human players (this thread is a nice example), it's most likely that a similar kind of map will be voted in next, even if the admin was too lazy to use less than all maps.

[Molgan]

Making vehicles map dependant is a bad move imo. Can't see how this will benefit any of the original game types at all, but on the other hand epic might have something up their sleeve to make it work. I'm afraid it will kill CTF definitely, mutators have done a good job at messing it up in 2k4, having 2 game types in 1 will do it even better.

[NeoPhoenixIIM]

The part that is the most retarded is that they will have separate game types for ICTF and 1vs1 DM, but not v/CTF or v/DM. When having vehicles is more major of a change than having insta gib or the amount of players in DM.

[Apathy]

A thought would be to make it like if a vehicle is placed on a map, then you don't get a trans.. If a vehicle is not on a map, then you get the trans. I don't think it would be too hard to put in like that.

yay for 1000 posts!

[fuegerstef]

A thought would be to make it like if a vehicle is placed on a map, then you don't get a trans.. If a vehicle is not on a map, then you get the trans. I don't think it would be too hard to put in like that.

yay for 1000 posts!

It would only be good if there is a filter right in the Server browser that checks the whole maplist (included custom maps) and let's you disable Vehicle/nonVehicle servers.

Could be hard for huuuuge maplists with a lot of custom maps.

With instagib it is either a seperate gametype now (for CTF) or a mutator that can be filtered or is shown with that little skull-icon. Like this I can avoid the type I do not want to play. How is this done when there are custom mpas I do not know or retail maps without vehicles just to find out the match is almost over and will switch to a vehicle map ????

yay for 4607 posts.

[BadAss84]

Absolutely agreed.

I don't think that there are many people at all who favour CTF and vCTF being under the same heading.

Lots of people aren't going to want to play CTF with vehicles (myself for one), so if I'm on a server that's going to keep switching to a map that I won't play, then the chances of me wanting to keep playing are going to be a hell of a lot less. Exactly the same is true for people who only want to play vCTF.

Combining them is going to frustrate and annoy a lot of players, and for absolutely no real benefit.


Crap, we're boned. It's going to be AS all over again. Without distinction between VCTF and CTF, DM and VDM, every noob mapper is going to put vehicles in their DM and CTF maps. Then every time I go on a server, wanting to play regular DM or regular CTF I won't be able to because people will vote for VCTF and VDM maps ALL the time. It will no longer matter what game type you play under or whether the server is official or a pub, EVERY game type will be dominated by vehicles.


Agreed.

Also i worry about the amount of standard CTF maps that will ship with the game if this happens. Say we get 8 ctf maps but 3 of those have vehicles, then that's only 5 regular ctf maps for us to play, whereas if they are seperate gametypes, we'll probably get a decent number of both, because when you put them together it's much easier for epic to just think "well there's 8 ctf maps shipping with the game, thats enough". If they are seperate as they should be, then they wouldn't be able to think that, and would have to make an adequate number of maps for both gametypes seperately.

Hope i explained that properly :p

It's the same kind of reason i dislike gimmick maps, it just takes up space that could've been used for a proper ctf map.

[Entropy]

You people tend to over react. :)

We're not forcing you to play vCTF, we're giving you extra maps with the option to play them if you want to (and we think you will once you play 'em). If you don't like them, then take them out of rotation. But also give us credit for more than just dumping a Scorpion into a map and calling it vCTF... a CTF map with vehicles plays differently and needs to be designed differently, we know that.

I know its hard, but don't judge too soon -- I was never a fan of vCTF until we started messing with it and tweaking things. As it stands right now, I think its one of the strongest features of our game, and is an absolute blast to play. We always have to turn people away from CTF test sessions.

And just to reiterate, regular CTF is _definitely_ still a focus and I think this game's offering is shaping up to be our strongest yet. We've got some absolutely amazing talent working on maps, and I don't think the LD team has ever been stronger. Best in the business!

[fuegerstef]

I was never a fan of vCTF until we started messing with it and tweaking things. As it stands right now, I think its one of the strongest features of our game, and is an absolute blast to play. We always have to turn people away from CTF test sessions.

Nice to hear. I think vCTF didn't work well in UT3k4 (and I wanted to like it). The more good gameplay, the better. :)

[Xyx]

Good to hear, though I can't imagine an official coming on to a forum and saying things are not at least as good as in the last game. ;)

[Roulette]

Over react. HAHAHAH yeah. Like that's even possible with Epic's record.

This is just a standard reaction to Epic trying to force their 'NEXT NEW THING' on the people who like the actual game. Any ninny who has ever tried it knows that standard CTF and vCTF have totally different game styles that appeal to different types of people. Some people like both. A lot of people on both sides of the fence prefer to play one or the other. Swapping xloc and vehicles back and forth is sure to annoy lots of people.

Mixing the two and depending on server admins to keep servers separate via the map list is naive. Judging by epic previous ham handed handling of new offerings, we can assume the default map list will NOT be so separated and there probably won't be a way to filter out servers that run mixed lists. Or even ones that run a full list of one or the other.

Put me down for not interested in playing on servers that switch between vCTF and CTF. I don't want to suddenly start playing iCTF, and I don't want to suddenly be playing vCTF. Hiding the mod by building it into the map doesn't change the fact that your switching to a new mod. Different type of game is a different gametype.

[iLL]

You people tend to over react. :)

We're not forcing you to play vCTF, we're giving you extra maps with the option to play them if you want to (and we think you will once you play 'em). If you don't like them, then take them out of rotation. But also give us credit for more than just dumping a Scorpion into a map and calling it vCTF... a CTF map with vehicles plays differently and needs to be designed differently, we know that.

I know its hard, but don't judge too soon -- I was never a fan of vCTF until we started messing with it and tweaking things. As it stands right now, I think its one of the strongest features of our game, and is an absolute blast to play. We always have to turn people away from CTF test sessions.

And just to reiterate, regular CTF is _definitely_ still a focus and I think this game's offering is shaping up to be our strongest yet. We've got some absolutely amazing talent working on maps, and I don't think the LD team has ever been stronger. Best in the business!

Thanks a bunch.I will hold you to your word and I am already breathing easier.I guess my nails will be able to grow back.:p

[Xyx]

Why not make everything ONE gametype???
Seriously, that would pwn. Before you spout hundreds of disadvantages, consider the advantages! It's the ultimate variety for the n00bs, and the ultimate allround virtual pissing contest for the elitists.

[NeoPhoenixIIM]

You people tend to over react. :)

We're not forcing you to play vCTF, we're giving you extra maps with the option to play them if you want to (and we think you will once you play 'em). If you don't like them, then take them out of rotation. But also give us credit for more than just dumping a Scorpion into a map and calling it vCTF... a CTF map with vehicles plays differently and needs to be designed differently, we know that.

I know its hard, but don't judge too soon -- I was never a fan of vCTF until we started messing with it and tweaking things. As it stands right now, I think its one of the strongest features of our game, and is an absolute blast to play. We always have to turn people away from CTF test sessions.

And just to reiterate, regular CTF is _definitely_ still a focus and I think this game's offering is shaping up to be our strongest yet. We've got some absolutely amazing talent working on maps, and I don't think the LD team has ever been stronger. Best in the business!

It's not Epic that will ruin CTF and DM, it's the custom mappers that will do this.

However, just because you aren't physically ruining the game type, the fact remains that you ARE giving mappers the means to do so; and do so they will. Did you guys at Epic learn NOTHING from your mistakes with Assault? You introduced vehicles into that, and though YOUR maps were constructed well, 90% of the custom maps abused the vehicles and destroyed Assault.

I guarantee you the same will happen to CTF and DM. The maps will turn into major vehicle spam fests that will require no skill what so ever. The good custom maps without vehicles will be few and far between, and we won't even have a stock maps or a single game type to fall back on because they will all be vehicle dominated. And don't even try to pass the blame onto server admins because there are three types of servers: demo, stock, and custom content. ALL of which will have vehicle maps, and the rare servers that do take the time to set up so there are only classic style CTF and DM maps will be under 1%.

You guys at Epic HAVE TO realize this will destroy your clan-based community as well. If you don't realize this, that's awfully sad. You will alienate most of the clan community, and almost all of the die-hard fans that have been with you since day one. You will lose sales, and the community in UT2007 will be smaller and die quicker than any UT prior...

And Why? Just because you are too lazy to code in separate groups for VCTF /VDM and CTF/DM?

Do you realize how pathetic and stupid that sounds?

I realize your trying to make it so your community isn't spread out over 8 different game types, but combining VCTF/VDM with CTF/DM is NOT the way.

If you don't want such a dispersion you shouldn’t have added 1vs1 DM and iCTF as separate game types. Those don't need to be separate to survive and thrive, CTF and DM do.

But hey I should be happy, I guess, because your laziness is saving me from spending $5,000 on a new rig just to play UT2007.

IF, and that's a big IF, I ever feel the need to play a game in which all game types are centered around vehicles, I'll just play Battlefield 2142. Or perhaps I'll switch to quake because as far as I know they weren't ignorant enough to allow VCTF/VDM into classic CTF/DM! :mad:

[Gregori]

Nice to hear. I think vCTF didn't work well in UT3k4 (and I wanted to like it). The more good gameplay, the better. :)


We aren't quite at UT3k4 yet, but I betcha its graphics will be super leet;)



I Reckon that first VDM map will be a much extended version of DM-StalwartXL that has a road tunnel track that you can mill around on with the Scorpion/Hellbender, the vehicle being the maps super weapon. Done right, that map could be sweet!

[xi0s]

....Vehicles are a map feature, not a gametype feature.

Excuse me but something that is 100% interactive with the player and can be used as a weapon and tool, would be considered a gametype not map feature, simply because they are not dependent on the map itself to exist. The only reason they would be is if they wouldnt be removable from the map, which if they werent then the map should be considered a part of a gametype, which is currently known as VCTF.


Avoiding maps with vehicles is like avoiding maps with the Flak Cannon. Problematic

LOL @ this analogy, complete nonsense. So without vehicles CTF is problematic? So that must explain why CTF has existed in just about every fps without vehicles for years now, and has had a stronger community than ONS and any other gametype besides 1v1, TAM and TDM ever have? Get a clue kid.

How in the world you think are vehicles belong in a normal weapons gametype that already have the added element of flags is beyond me. They are in a category of their own, and change the gameplay entirely. They add another element that can completely ruin the way the gameplay is meant to be played to the already existing CTF fanbase, and think its suppose to be the staple of CTF? Wow, just wow. If their are CTF maps that use them, and people that like them, there is nothing 'problematic. But if they are to be included in all of them in most if not all the maps so as not to keep it standard then the CTF community will vanish, and there will be a PROBLEM.

Vehicles do not neccessarily even create any balance in the game, and they really should be considered a mod/category all on their own. Hell if you want vehicles, kill CTF altogether and lets all just play ONSLAUGHT. :rolleyes:

If it aint broke, don't fix it. If you want to mod it out, thats fine, just don't mix conflicts of interest.


But I'm just a loyal Epic customer whose played this game for years with the best of the community, so my input probably has no meaning to them anyhow. Cause Epic really cares what me and 95% of the CTF community (www.unrealness.com) agree on. :cool:


PS- I agree with everything NeoPheonix said about how vehicles turn CTF into a largely skill-less game, defeating the basic fundamentals and purpose, and therefore ruining a good thing.

By adding this element, whereby people can race around and run people over, you are also taking away this element called SKILL.

[Gregori]

LOL @ this analogy, complete nonsense. So without vehicles CTF is problematic? So that must explain why CTF has existed in just about every fps without vehicles for years now, and has had a stronger community than ONS and any other gametype besides 1v1, TAM and TDM ever have? Get a clue kid.



Hey Kid, you obviously have a complete attitude problem.

Xyx's analogy means avoiding in UT2k7 will be problematic since nearly all gametypes in UT2k7 will include vehicles on a variety of maps, much like the Flak Cannon is a weapon present in all gametypes and most maps!

He's not refering to how successful past versions of CTF without vehicles in UT and other FPS's have been. Try being more polite or atleast take time to interpret people's post correctly before you go on a big agressive rant!

[Saiya]

Agreed with Xios 100%. Simply put I will not buy the game if CTF and VCTF are merged into one. Keep them seperate, they are 2 seperate communities and 2 seperate gametypes.

[Gregori]

Agreed with Xios 100%. Simply put I will not buy the game if CTF and VCTF are merged into one. Keep them seperate, they are 2 seperate communities and 2 seperate gametypes.


Then don't. There is a poll you can vote on for this: http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=551960

I can't see why you just don't remove VCTF maps from the cycle though!

[Jayrell]

nj....who's stupid idea was it to combine a gay vctf (how many play that?) with your very popular CTF? They ought to be shot, fired, kicked in the balls, whatever works. Nobody wants to play VCTF or else it'd have a huge clan following like CTF does. NOBODY WANTS IT. I study business, but don't even need that degree to tell you this: you can have an excellent product, great graphics, and offer everything, but if the public doesn't want it, it's all wasted money on design. go visit the irc sometime and ask us there what we want. We've been talking and I've already heard from a lot that if you combine those game types, they won't buy your game. I doubt I will either. Good call. Piss off the ctf community, the guys who have been diehards from the beginning....good call.

[Gregori]

nj....who's stupid idea was it to combine a gay vctf (how many play that?) with your very popular CTF? They ought to be shot, fired, kicked in the balls, whatever works. Nobody wants to play VCTF or else it'd have a huge clan following like CTF does. NOBODY WANTS IT. I study business, but don't even need that degree to tell you this: you can have an excellent product, great graphics, and offer everything, but if the public doesn't want it, it's all wasted money on design. go visit the irc sometime and ask us there what we want. We've been talking and I've already heard from a lot that if you combine those game types, they won't buy your game. I doubt I will either. Good call. Piss off the ctf community, the guys who have been diehards from the beginning....good call.


If no one wants to play VCTF, then no one will play VCTF maps, and It''ll die like BR and DDOM did! Are you sure you study buisness?

Anyway I doubt the majority of public will be as dramatic as to protest by not buying the game over a simple map type. Only the minority of hardcore fans will complain, this will probably sharply drop off if VCTF turns out to be good after UT2k7 is released. Epic are just keeping CTF fresh and varied as far as I can see.

I'm very deeply suspicious that some people are afraid that loads of public will want it and it'll be as overplayed as CTF Face itself!

[BigJim]

Excuse me but something that is 100% interactive with the player and can be used as a weapon and tool, would be considered a gametype not map feature, simply because they are not dependent on the map itself to exist.

Of course it is - sometime maps will have vehicles, some maps won't have vehicles, and of those that do, the loadout will vary from map to map.
Therefore, each individual vehicle is a feature of the map, since it by earlier definition won't be included with *all* maps of a particular gametype.
That's the part where the "not gametype" kicks in..

Xyx is entirely correct, if there was *any* room for different interpratation in his statement you might be able to argue the point - but there isn't.



LOL @ this analogy, complete nonsense. So without vehicles CTF is problematic? So that must explain why CTF has existed in just about every fps without vehicles for years now, and has had a stronger community than ONS and any other gametype besides 1v1, TAM and TDM ever have? Get a clue kid.

Noo.. That statement said that avoiding vehice maps (because remember, some maps will & won't feature them - see above) may become (and to quote) problematic, almost as problematic as if you (for some reason) wanted to avoid Flak Cannon maps.

The reason for this is because you rarely know what the mapper has placed in thier map until you play it - aw hell, you really should know this stuff already, the rest of that post hurts my reason.. :(

[MonsOlympus]

Originally posted by Entropy
You people tend to over react.

We're not forcing you to play vCTF, we're giving you extra maps with the option to play them if you want to (and we think you will once you play 'em). If you don't like them, then take them out of rotation. But also give us credit for more than just dumping a Scorpion into a map and calling it vCTF... a CTF map with vehicles plays differently and needs to be designed differently, we know that.

I know its hard, but don't judge too soon -- I was never a fan of vCTF until we started messing with it and tweaking things. As it stands right now, I think its one of the strongest features of our game, and is an absolute blast to play. We always have to turn people away from CTF test sessions.

And just to reiterate, regular CTF is _definitely_ still a focus and I think this game's offering is shaping up to be our strongest yet. We've got some absolutely amazing talent working on maps, and I don't think the LD team has ever been stronger. Best in the business!


Originally posted by Roulette
Over react. HAHAHAH yeah. Like that's even possible with Epic's record.

This is just a standard reaction to Epic trying to force their 'NEXT NEW THING' on the people who like the actual game. Any ninny who has ever tried it knows that standard CTF and vCTF have totally different game styles that appeal to different types of people. Some people like both. A lot of people on both sides of the fence prefer to play one or the other. Swapping xloc and vehicles back and forth is sure to annoy lots of people.

Mixing the two and depending on server admins to keep servers separate via the map list is naive. Judging by epic previous ham handed handling of new offerings, we can assume the default map list will NOT be so separated and there probably won't be a way to filter out servers that run mixed lists. Or even ones that run a full list of one or the other.

Put me down for not interested in playing on servers that switch between vCTF and CTF. I don't want to suddenly start playing iCTF, and I don't want to suddenly be playing vCTF. Hiding the mod by building it into the map doesn't change the fact that your switching to a new mod. Different type of game is a different gametype.


Originally posted by NeoPhoenixIIM
You guys at Epic HAVE TO realize this will destroy your clan-based community as well. If you don't realize this, that's awfully sad. You will alienate most of the clan community, and almost all of the die-hard fans that have been with you since day one. You will lose sales, and the community in UT2007 will be smaller and die quicker than any UT prior...

And Why? Just because you are too lazy to code in separate groups for VCTF /VDM and CTF/DM?

Do you realize how pathetic and stupid that sounds?

I realize your trying to make it so your community isn't spread out over 8 different game types, but combining VCTF/VDM with CTF/DM is NOT the way.


Originally posted by Saiya
Agreed with Xios 100%. Simply put I will not buy the game if CTF and VCTF are merged into one. Keep them seperate, they are 2 seperate communities and 2 seperate gametypes.

Hell yeah they over react, this thread is laughable and is extactly on point about people sticking to there select group and not venturing outside. Why? Is it because your not good enough to learn to play with vehicles, I somehow doubt this as most of you sound like you know what your talking about. Why so narrow minded then? are you the same people who swap teams 20 odd times in a ctf map with the excuse "it makes it fair"? or perhaps the ones that will only join a game thats on a map you like? I dunno Im dumbfounded really that you guys would think this way.

Im sure clans can easily set it up to play only on CTF maps and if they cant why not add some variety. The split in the community topic comes up again and again yet you guys keep at it with a crowbar like you are going to make things better with that kind of attitude. I say bring on this merger it'll benifit the community by bring more players and many more years of FPS Godness, bring on the random insta mutator option in CTF. I love variety and will adapt to any given situation, get rid of those people who will master one gametype then only play that for the rest of the games life so they can feel pro.

Im sick of being limited in what I play online because of people with big mouths think and sometimes can make a difference where there not even sure they should. Epic are great, they bring us ut after ut and always deliver top quality in almost every aspect yet people keep picking on them. I mean damn if you knew half of what it takes to make a game or mod you might have alittle bit of a different attitude, Ive been on the recieving end of critics with my coding and I can tell you its not pleasant. Sometimes it makes you feel like your not appreciated and all your hard work youve spent hours/days/weeks even months and years on isnt worth it.

I can understand peoples worries on the whole assualt topic but cmon this is nothing new for epic theyve been working on this franchise for ages, do you really think they would risk it if it wasnt worth it? Id say no, Im confident that this has been tested ect many times over so who are you? Have you played the game? Have you coded something similar for ut2k4 to see if it works? Well if thats a no Id say be quiet and listen to epic as they know 100 times more than all of us combined about the game and series.

If modders manage to screw it up then thats our fault, blame me, just dont go around saying your not going to by a game because of 1 little feature you havent even seen in action or because they have removed something you dont like. I mean cmon, youve seen the footage havent you? You cant tell me 2k7 doesnt look to totally crap all over any multiplayer game on the market when its released. I can tell epic isnt all about graphics now and gameplay has been an important factor all the way through, I mean the effort they are taking to ensure this game is nothing but the most expensive of whiskeys is amazing.

[iLL]

Hell yeah they over react, this thread is laughable and is extactly on point about people sticking to there select group and not venturing outside. Why? Is it because your not good enough to learn to play with vehicles, I somehow doubt this as most of you sound like you know what your talking about. Why so narrow minded then? are you the same people who swap teams 20 odd times in a ctf map with the excuse "it makes it fair"? or perhaps the ones that will only join a game thats on a map you like? I dunno Im dumbfounded really that you guys would think this way.

Im sure clans can easily set it up to play only on CTF maps and if they cant why not add some variety. The split in the community topic comes up again and again yet you guys keep at it with a crowbar like you are going to make things better with that kind of attitude. I say bring on this merger it'll benifit the community by bring more players and many more years of FPS Godness, bring on the random insta mutator option in CTF. I love variety and will adapt to any given situation, get rid of those people who will master one gametype then only play that for the rest of the games life so they can feel pro.

Im sick of being limited in what I play online because of people with big mouths think and sometimes can make a difference where there not even sure they should. Epic are great, they bring us ut after ut and always deliver top quality in almost every aspect yet people keep picking on them. I mean damn if you knew half of what it takes to make a game or mod you might have alittle bit of a different attitude, Ive been on the recieving end of critics with my coding and I can tell you its not pleasant. Sometimes it makes you feel like your not appreciated and all your hard work youve spent hours/days/weeks even months and years on isnt worth it.

I can understand peoples worries on the whole assualt topic but cmon this is nothing new for epic theyve been working on this franchise for ages, do you really think they would risk it if it wasnt worth it? Id say no, Im confident that this has been tested ect many times over so who are you? Have you played the game? Have you coded something similar for ut2k4 to see if it works? Well if thats a no Id say be quiet and listen to epic as they know 100 times more than all of us combined about the game and series.

If modders manage to screw it up then thats our fault, blame me, just dont go around saying your not going to by a game because of 1 little feature you havent even seen in action or because they have removed something you dont like. I mean cmon, youve seen the footage havent you? You cant tell me 2k7 doesnt look to totally crap all over any multiplayer game on the market when its released. I can tell epic isnt all about graphics now and gameplay has been an important factor all the way through, I mean the effort they are taking to ensure this game is nothing but the most expensive of whiskeys is amazing.

I won't comment on everything,but I must on some of your statements.

First off don't you think we have all ventured off and tried other gametypes.I'd bet yes.After a few weeks we just decided."Ya know what,this sucks imo I am going to a gametype that I enjoy."

Also why is it that we(nonvehicular players)are not good enough to play with vehicles.Couldn't I just say "Aren't you good enough on foot to play without them?"Playing ONS all the time and nothing else isn't narrowminded?

Uhh,there were no vehicles for many of the UT's especially early on.It was its gameplay,(CTF and DM)weapons,and maps that helped UT get where it is today.Vehicles had very little to do with it until as of late.

I think its disrespectful you say "Oh screw the 99ers and old skoolers who love DM and CTF.They just cannot hang in ONS.(when in fact its just they do not like it)"In a nutshell thats pretty much what I read.

We are not even saying about ONS what you're saying about CTF.(standard CTF does not matter)I think we just hope our CTF and DM is COMPLETELY SEPARATE and there are people to play it.Alot of us do not like vehicles ya know and enjoy the game fine without anything vehicle related.

If they combine them and along with mappers and modders in a year the ut2k7 will be spread out over 30 gametypes and probably vehicle dominated.I hope that I am wrong,but Epic seems to be fueling this.

You said a remark about one little feature for us not to buy the game.Hmmm.Would you buy the game if the one little feature removed was ONS or now called Unreal Warfare?

This would force you to play DM and CTF with trans and on foot.How would feel?Its no different IF they combine VCTF and CTF or give a weak crappy CTF map list.

That fav gametype of the individual could be the very reason they ARE BUYING IT.You can tell by passion and anger shown already that it is A VERY BIG CONCERN.

Seriously man.Would you buy the game if there was no warfare mode?(NO ONS)Just CTF and DM.No vehicles whatsoever?

[Xyx]

The maps will turn into major vehicle spam fests that will require no skill what so ever. Hah, I am guaranteed to beat any n00b on a map with vehicles, and I'm not even highly skilled. If you're so l33t as you imply, what's your problem? Are you so over-specialized in dodging shock combos that your brain can no longer adapt to dodging Hellbenders?


Excuse me but something that is 100% interactive with the player and can be used as a weapon and tool, would be considered a gametype not map feature, simply because they are not dependent on the map itself to exist. So you're saying the Flak Cannon, Translocator and Impact Hammer would be considered gametypes? It's 100% interactive with the player and can be used as a weapon and tool. Is there a point in there somewhere?


LOL @ this analogy, complete nonsense. So without vehicles CTF is problematic? [snip rant] No, avoiding maps based on a map feature is problematic.

Read, understand, reply.


Nobody wants to play VCTF or else it'd have a huge clan following like CTF does. NOBODY WANTS IT. It is only the most popular gametype that didn't ship with the game, I suppose... but you, having studied "business" and all, will no doubt be able to explain why such popularity means nothing.

[MonsOlympus]

Originally posted by iLL
I won't comment on everything,but I must on some of your statements.

First off don't you think we have all ventured off and tried other gametypes.I'd bet yes.After a few weeks we just decided."Ya know what,this sucks imo I am going to a gametype that I enjoy."

Also why is it that we(nonvehicular players)are not good enough to play with vehicles.Couldn't I just say "Aren't you good enough on foot to play without them?"Playing ONS all the time and nothing else isn't narrowminded?

Uhh,there were no vehicles for many of the UT's especially early on.It was its gameplay,(CTF and DM)weapons,and maps that helped UT get where it is today.Vehicles had very little to do with it until as of late.

I think its disrespectful you say "Oh screw the 99ers and old skoolers who love DM and CTF.They just cannot hang in ONS.(when in fact its just they do not like it)"In a nutshell thats pretty much what I read.

We are not even saying about ONS what you're saying about CTF.(standard CTF does not matter)I think we just hope our CTF and DM is COMPLETELY SEPARATE and there are people to play it.Alot of us do not like vehicles ya know and enjoy the game fine without anything vehicle related.

If they combine them and along with mappers and modders in a year the ut2k7 will be spread out over 30 gametypes and probably vehicle dominated.I hope that I am wrong,but Epic seems to be fueling this.

You said a remark about one little feature for us not to buy the game.Hmmm.Would you buy the game if the one little feature removed was ONS or now called Unreal Warfare?

This would force you to play DM and CTF with trans and on foot.How would feel?Its no different IF they combine VCTF and CTF or give a weak crappy CTF map list.

That fav gametype of the individual could be the very reason they ARE BUYING IT.You can tell by passion and anger shown already that it is A VERY BIG CONCERN.

Seriously man.Would you buy the game if there was no warfare mode?(NO ONS)Just CTF and DM.No vehicles whatsoever?

Well first of I should apoligize youve made some good comments and the thread was started with good intentions. I hope you didnt get the wrong Idea about me saying it was laughable that was mainly directed at the comments made.

See this is exactly what I mean you immeditaly think Im a ONS freek, which Im not. I actually happen to be a hardcore DM player...
I happen to be 25 yesterday and Im as hardcore a player as you'll find, Ive been right the way through the genre of first person. You just proved my point for me, see Im not narrow minded I'll play other gametypes and even if I dont enjoy a map/mod or gametype as much I'll play it. I dont resort to putting people in a steriotype of a gametype which is exactly why this is a perfect move on epics part.

If you read what I said I never really implied non-vehicle peeps arnt as good players, infact I think I said that you guys would have the skills so thats not the main issue. Thanks for doing that again and proving my point for me :p funny thing is trans players will use that excuse for keeping it hehe

I would buy the game no matter what! Vehicles removed, trans only in ctf, ons removed, warfare removed, no instagib you name it. If all it contained was the most basic of gametypes I would buy it because of the art and music direction alone, not to mention the upgraded AI. See what I mean its alot more than about one gametype as you guys seem to think. The thing with the most basic of gametypes is that they have been done to death and there are plenty of games I could boot up right now with them in. This is a NEW ut game it should have new features, new options and be fresh an innovative, people against change are stunting the games industry which is probably why we are stuck in the 1940's still lmao :)

If I wanted a game with 1 gametype there are plenty out there on the market with even a focus on fortress (player classes). Thats not what Im about sorry, I want to see epic progress with the series and make it what ut99 couldnt have been instead of ut99 done in 2007 with nothing different. Thats not saying ut99 isnt a great game and it happens to be my favourite so far, ut2k3/4 did alot to improve but just didnt seem like as big a step forward as ut2k7 is. Im all for new and old and everything peachy, just dont get people wrong hey theres alot more than 1 gametype out there. Please open your minds and actually try something different for a change otherwise in my eyes you'll get stuck in what I like to call pop culture which is only fueled by the internet. I dont want some mass produced pop game with a sequel every six months with no artistic drive.

Bring it on epic, ut2k7 is gonna be the slickest shizz since sliced bread! Art, gameplay, music, sound and AI. OMFG did I forget graphics lmfao :D

[Flak]

Keep the flames down guys or this will be closed.

[NeoPhoenixIIM]

I agree with iLL's last post. I also think it's sad that the only way, most people, who are for vehicle play in all gametypes get their point across is by calling names toward the majority that disagrees with them. :rolleyes:

That's sad , if you would buy it if the reverse was true and ONS and UW were removed. I wouldn't buy it then either because you are still destroying a cool gametype, just as Epic is doing with classic CTF/DM by adding vehicles, that will destory the playability of custom CTF/DM maps.

I'll reply in more detail after work.

[NeoPhoenixIIM]

OK time for the real reply.


Hah, I am guaranteed to beat any n00b on a map with vehicles, and I'm not even highly skilled. If you're so l33t as you imply, what's your problem? Are you so over-specialized in dodging shock combos that your brain can no longer adapt to dodging Hellbenders?

Try being a little more mature and read peoples post, and don't dissect it using what only fits your agenda. I never said I was elite, or that I can't play with vehicles. I’ve played in clans in UT, and without clans in UT2kx, so not only do I respect both players views and desires, I also understand to a grater extent what both sides want, than a player that has only experienced one or the other.

I however don't feel Epic is being respectful or fair to both sides, in fact I feel epic is catering to the average player while alienating the clan and hardcore UT fans by combining VCTF/VDM with CTF/DM.


It is only the most popular game type that didn't ship with the game, I suppose...

I don't deny that, in fact I enjoyed a good VCTF and ONS match, and think VDM would be sweet, as many seemed to want a try at modding it in UT2k4. The fact remains that the game play, skills, and tactics needed to play VCTF/VDM and CTF/DM are completely different from one another. In fact, CTF and DM would be easier to mix together than VCTF and CTF. This is because, although DM and CTF have their obvious differences, their game play and tactics are more similar to each other than any vehicle game type, even more so than VCTF.

Mixing CTF/DM and VCTF/VDM is like mixing water and oil. Yes they are both liquids, but they are far from being the same, and if you try to mix the two their differences become even more evident. You could keep mixing the solution so the oil never has a chance to separate from the water, and in doing so you could ignorantly say they are mixing well, but the fact remains they aren't mixed well, and if you let the solution settle it will be blatantly obvious that they aren't mixing at all.

This is most easily seen when playing separate game types like CTF and VCTF or DM and ONS. If you play the classic game types for a while and they play a vehicle game type you will be off. The same would also happened if you reversed the scenario. Even if you play CTF/DM and VCTF/VDM equally you will still be out of sink when you start playing the new game type. This is because most players need to play a few levels of a certain game type to get any decent rhythm in their play. And because CTF/DM and VCTF/VDM are so distinct you would never be able to get into such a rhythm, because players/servers would vote/change to different style maps ALL the time.

And as I said before, passing the blame, of something you allowed, upon server admins is quite sad to say the least. This is because only about 1% would probably take the time to set up standard CTF and DM servers. However if Epic would take the time to code CTF, DM, VCTF, VDM to be all distinct game types the amount of servers for all four styles of play would be more equal and fair to the community as a whole.

Then if any one of those four game types aren't very popular in UT2007, Epic can remove it or combine it with its alteration. However, how it stands now, Regular CTF was just as popular as VCTF, if not more so. So why hurt the popularity of either by combining the two. It is by far the worst idea I ever heard being implemented into ANY game, esp. when you know full well it is a bad decision that will hurt your games popularity.

Epic probably will make some excellent and well-balanced maps, but that doesn't change anything I have said in this post, or any post prior. Because the fact remains that the styles are too different and people will abuse the power you give them, just as they did in Assault. If this change is made I will forever view Epic as a dictatorship company and will boycott every product you produce from this time forward, because you are not being considerate of well over half of you community in combining CTF/DM with VCTF/VDM.

[Crotale]

Although I can respect the opinion by some that Epic will ruin the UT line by merging non-vehicle and vehicle based gametypes, I think the reasoning is flawed. To say that you will join a server playing a CTF map, then the next map in rotation comes up as vCTF causes you a problem, well, yep, you have a problem. A personal problem, which can be solved by finding a server that caters to your tastes. We have all been finding servers that suit our tastes for years now, so why is the mergence of vCTF and CTF any different? Personally, I have played on many servers that change not only maps but gametypes between maps. And, it's not uncommon to occasionally see a CTF map showing up in a DM server in the browser, etc. IMO, a simple extra tick that filters out vCTF map rotaters should solve that dilemna. To be honest, since us non-Epic employees do not yet have a clue as to how the browser and search options will be handled, I feel that any hardcore opinions are unsubstantiated.

As for the possibility of vCTF/vDM taking the lead in popularity online, you cannot deny that if that does indeed happen, it is because the vehicle based gametypes are becoming more popular. It's a fact of life we have to recognize. Hey, I like my non-vehicle DM and CTF just like the next player; but if vehicles are where the action is, then that is where I'm headed too.

[Sero]

hmm, skimmed through the long posts here a bit, and found one sentence in particular that bugged me a bit

"get rid of those people who will master one gametype then only play that for the rest of the games life so they can feel pro"

Now this wouldn't have applied to me anyway, since there are several game(type)s that I play (just wanted to get that out of the way before making my point), but there are simply certain factors that make people play games. Certain things that make them decide a particular game(type) suits them.

Could it perhaps be that people that play only one single gametype, only like that particular gametype? I know I only really liked one gametype/mutator combination in ut99 (as opposed to 4 in ut2k4), so I simply stuck to that.

The problem here is not that people are incapable of playing something other than they're used to, neither is it that they feel too "pro", the problem is that most people still play for fun, will stick to the gametype they find to be the most fun and that Epic is in effect merging two significantly different gametypes into one, annoying the hell out of people that happened to like the one and dislike the other.

Nearly all the reasons provided here for it being ok, vehicles in DM/CTF, are in fact 'fixes', that would not be necessary if these two very different types of play were simply kept appart.

[AmericanWoman]

*Snip*NeoPhoenixIIM*And as I said before, passing the blame, of something you allowed, upon server admins is quite sad to say the least. This is because only about 1% would probably take the time to set up standard CTF and DM servers. However if Epic would take the time to code CTF, DM, VCTF, VDM to be all distinct game types the amount of servers for all four styles of play would be more equal and fair to the community as a whole.*Snip*

I totally agree with this statement, and very well put.

I'm going to make this my last calm rant........
If I click on game type, and i see this>
vCTF/CTF
vDM/DM
instead of
DM
vDM
CTF
vCTF
The game is going back to the store.:(
Many tears will I shed.

[Gregori]

If I click on game type, and i see this>
vCTF/CTF
vDM/DM
instead of
DM
vDM
CTF
vCTF
The game is going back to the store.:(
Many tears will I shed.


Most people aren't that mellow dramatic and will enjoy it just fine after bought. I doubt Epic has much to Fear, It'll be a very silent protest!

Afterall, Hardcore gamers and Forums posters like ourselves constitute a very small number of the those who'll buy this game!

[Scylla]

Mixing VDM and DM will be the perfect way to kill DM.

[Gregori]

Mixing VDM and DM will be the perfect way to kill DM.

Or the perfect way for everybody to kill each other :D

[NeoPhoenixIIM]

I doubt Epic has much to Fear, It'll be a very silent protest!

After all, Hardcore gamers and Forums posters like ourselves constitute a very small number of the those who'll buy this game!

We may be only part of the voice of the community as a whole, but our opinions and backgrounds are diverse enough to represent the popular opinion that is most likely maintained by the majority.

I could look up the exact term in my psychology book if you wish, but the majority of info in surveys is gathered, by interviewing such divers and random groups, like those that collect in forums. And I’m sure people in such polls have an opinion on the given topic, else they wouldn’t know what you were asking or even how to answer; so that pretty much eliminates the opinion of prospective customers that don’t even know about the series or the game yet.

They would like or dislike the game regardless of what happens on the forums and in development. This is about the active community and not alienating them because Epic wants to simplify things too much.

[Scylla]

Or the perfect way for everybody to kill each other :D

Why would anyone want VDM? It just seems so unpratical.

Hopefully they won't be merged, but if they are I can imagine the leviathan being put into a map and a guy getting on godlike from it...

[Gregori]

Why would anyone want VDM? It just seems so unpractical.

Hopefully they won't be merged, but if they are I can imagine the leviathan being put into a map and a guy getting on godlike from it...

They are already merged, theres are suposedly going to be more VDM and VCTF maps on the PS3 version because vehicles handle better with a controller.

I doubt they are going to make it that imbalanced!

[Selerox]

If I click on game type, and i see this>
vCTF/CTF
vDM/DM
instead of
DM
vDM
CTF
vCTF
The game is going back to the store.:(
Many tears will I shed.

Much as I hate to say it, I might do the same.

Why? Because it'll remove any chance I have of playing public servers.

Why? Because every pub server will run with both vehicle and non-vehicle maps. Because lots of server admins aren't bright enough (or don't care enough) to seperate them.

I don't want to play with vehicles. But under a combined system, the server will keep switching to a vCTF map. Which will cause me to quit the server. Which will ruin any chance I have of enjoying a nice long series of games with the same players. Everey time it switches to a vCTF map I'll have to search for a server that isn't running a vCTF map. Not a fun way to spend an evening. Eventually the hassle of having to change servers every other map ill mean that my enjoyment of the game is reduced, along with the likelyhood of me actually playing it. The same's going to be true of someone who wants to play vehicle maps.

But hey, Epic won't give a damn, because I'll have already bought the game...

[Xyx]

game play, skills, and tactics needed to play VCTF/VDM and CTF/DM are completely different from one another. [...] Mixing CTF/DM and VCTF/VDM is like mixing water and oil. [...] most players need to play a few levels of a certain game type to get any decent rhythm in their play. That applies to maps as well. If you play FaceClassic for half a day and then switch to CampersCrossing you're going to be pretty out of synch as well.

Whether the addition of vehicles (or translocators or even instagib rifles) is significant enough to warrant a different gametype is a matter of taste. Your taste leans towards structure, mine towards variety.


players/servers would vote/change to different style maps ALL the time.
every pub server will run with both vehicle and non-vehicle maps. Would you? Not everybody likes to mix it up, so you wouldn't stand alone. You will probably be able to gravitate towards servers with hardcore players and classic CTF lovers. I doubt they'll be mixing it up.


only about 1% would probably take the time to set up standard CTF and DM servers. However if Epic would take the time to code CTF, DM, VCTF, VDM to be all distinct game types the amount of servers for all four styles of play would be more equal and fair to the community as a whole.
Because lots of server admins aren't bright enough (or don't care enough) to seperate them. What then, if Epic's "Default CTF" maplist would be split into "Vehicle CTF" and "Classic CTF", with "Classic CTF" being the default maplist. Any lazy admin would then host classic CTF by default, and this particular concern of yours would be eased.

I think it should be the maplist, not the gametype, where the distinction is made. If you split the gametype, people that like the mix would be forced to change servers after every map.

Besides, why play on a poorly admin-ed server? I can't imagine an admin having the time, sense or skills to ban cheaters and tards when he doesn't even have time, sense or skills to construct a good maplist.


it is a bad decision that will hurt your games popularity. ...among a select group of people. I doubt that, for instance, Halo CTF would have been any more popular if they had split CTF into "Classic CTF" and "Vehicle CTF". People that never knew the distinction probably won't give a damn, and might even appreciate the gametype's variety.


the fact remains that the styles are too different The opinion remains.


If this change is made I will forever view Epic as a dictatorship company and will boycott every product you produce from this time forward, because you are not being considerate of well over half of you community in combining CTF/DM with VCTF/VDM. Whoa, talk about overreacting! :confused: "Dictatorship"? Doesn't take much for you to turn something into a dictatorship, apparently. "Well over half"? According to what statistics? Not Epic's, I trust.


the majority of info in surveys is gathered, by interviewing such divers and random groups, like those that collect in forums. (not trying to single you out here... this statement just caught my attention)

I don't think this forum is as diverse as you imply. Serious players tend to drift towards forums more than casual players. Of all people I know IRL that play the UT series (all casuals), none post here. They'll get UT2007, and they won't shed any tears over relative trivialities such as the mixing of vehicle and classic gametypes or the departure of the dodgejump. I expect* it do be like that for over half of Epic's customers.

* No, I don't have the statistics to back that up, but I trust Epic would not have taken this decision otherwise.


prospective customers that don’t even know about the series or the game yet [...] would like or dislike the game regardless of what happens on the forums and in development. If that were the case, why isn't UT2003 more popular? You make it sound as if people new to the game don't care about its workings at all.

A better statement would be that people new to the series will buy the game regardless of what happened in development. After that they will like or dislike the game based on what happened in development.


Why would anyone want VDM? I would love to explain, but taste cannot be argued.

[fuegerstef]

....because vehicles handle better with a controller.

Except for aiming. And I think this is still the main part of vehicles...: destroying stuff, isn't it (no matter if it is someone attacking you or your node or you are attacking somone or their node)?

Oh wait... ...there is this vCTF, which is (currently) only a ride into base with manta and back...

[Scylla]

I doubt they are going to make it that imbalanced!

I guess you forgot that people can use UnrealEd to make maps...


They are already merged, theres are suposedly going to be more VDM and VCTF maps on the PS3 version because vehicles handle better with a controller.

Yes, but there isn't any stock maps with vehicles in them (which aren't ONS or AS), so it makes "mappers" not desire to make any maps like that.

[Xyx]

there isn't any stock maps with vehicles in them (which aren't ONS or AS), so it makes "mappers" not desire to make any maps like that.
...not counting hundreds of VCTF maps and that one VDM map.

[Scylla]

...not counting hundreds of VCTF maps and that one VDM map.


There was an all time low of VDM maps (which IMO is good).


Isn't there more CTF maps then vCTF?

[Apathy]

Heh.. could always have an option to filter out maps with vehicles.

[Xyx]

Isn't there more CTF maps then vCTF?
Would be a bit odd if it weren't, what with all the remakes. Classic CTF is six years older than Vehicle CTF.

[NeoPhoenixIIM]

That applies to maps as well. If you play FaceClassic for half a day and then switch to CampersCrossing you're going to be pretty out of synch as well.

If you are playing a single map that much chances are you are playing on an earlier mentioned demo server or prefer being able to dominate a single map with ease. If you truly played a single map THAT much, you wouldn't be able to play the game at all most likely, because you wouldn't know the layout of any other map. However if for whatever freak chance one map was voted several times in a row, within the same game type, but you normally play on a variety of maps within that game type, once the next map loads (if it is one you played before) you will have no problem adjusting to the new map. This is because each player has his/her own unique style of play for any given game type, and this style varies little from map to map.

However if you jump from CTF to VCTF, whole new tactical rules and game play come with the new style.

First off you can't get up in front of most vehicles to take them on, unless you have a death wish. VCTF also requires less accuracy. The vehicles are huge compared to a player, so precision isn't as important, You have a significant advantage when in vehicles in VCTF and each vehicle has different tactics you have to master in order to use them well. Most of the vehicles don't require accuracy. The Levi has homing missiles that home in even if your ridicule isn't locked on the target, the canon on it allows you to miss you target by 100 meters and still kill it. The Avril on the raptor and in the lockers don't require accuracy, they require stealth, so you don't get killed while locking on. The goliath, doesn't mater how accurate you are you will still miss more than not at a distance. By the time you get done playing a few rounds of ONS, your accuracy tactics, and reaction time are so skewed that it takes a few rounds of another non-vehicle game type to get back into the swing of things. I could probably right a five-page essay on the differences between game play of vehicle game types and non-vehicle game types and the effects they have on your game play.

So please don’t try to compare your map inference to my game type inference.


Would you? Not everybody likes to mix it up, so you wouldn't stand-alone. You will probably be able to gravitate towards servers with hardcore players and classic CTF lovers. I doubt they'll be mixing it up.

What then, if Epic's "Default CTF" map list would be split into "Vehicle CTF" and "Classic CTF", with "Classic CTF" being the default map list. Any lazy admin would then host classic CTF by default, and this particular concern of yours would be eased.

Wow, you do love distorting things to fit your agenda. as I have stated before there would be a small fraction of admins that would take the time to sort through the maps, but that amount is insignificant to the amount that would be there if all four game types were separate.

How in Gods name you came up with that second part is beyond me. That WOULD NOT happen and you know it. First off there would be no "Default" game type because each would have stock maps and be listed as it's own game type, it wouldn't be a hidden game type like in UT2k4. Nor would any game type have predominance in that "lazy admins" might be swayed. If they were THAT lazy to chose which game type to run on their server, I don't think they would even bother running the server to begin with.

The only thing that would happen with having the four game types separate would be that each game type would be on equal footing, no one would be forced to play vehicle or non-vehicle maps on their favorite server.

Plus more importantly the amount of servers under each game type would be based upon how popular that game type is, and an unpopular game type wouldn't be forced upon the majority that didn't like it.

And don't go twisting my words and tell me I think the vehicle game types will be less popular. The standard game types could be less popular this time round. What I am saying is be fair to EVERYONE vehicle lovers and non-vehicle lovers a like by having the four game types separate.


I think it should be the map list, not the game type, where the distinction is made. If you split the game type, people that like the mix would be forced to change servers after every map.

Talk about lazy. OMG you will have to click twice to disconnect, and then click twice to reconnect to a server on another game type. Oh and wait while you load the new game type. I do this ALL THE TIME and it's not that difficult or draining. Besides this takes less effort than switching servers every map or two just to play your desired game type.

I mean with your argument, we might as well just combine ALL game types into one, and just vote for what we want played; since it "should be the map list, not the game type, where the distinction is made."

I mean who would care if they got on-line to play ONS for the day, but had to play CTF instead, because that is what was voted.

I mean it would be fair, right? They are just lazy and don't want to switch servers or find an ONS dedicated server, so it would be their own fault, right? Well that’s what you are saying about CTF/DM VS VCTF/VDM. It would be no different with this, as it would with combining any of the game types. All game types ever created are pretty much just all variations of CTF and DM after all, so I'm sure you wouldn't mind playing all of them under the same genre.


Besides, why play on a poorly admin-ed server? I can't imagine an admin having the time, sense or skills to ban cheaters and tards when he doesn't even have time, sense or skills to construct a good map list.
Wow, that's not even worth a reply, though I think the above pretty much covers it anyway.


...among a select group of people. I doubt that, for instance, Halo CTF would have been any more popular if they had split CTF into "Classic CTF" and "Vehicle CTF". People that never knew the distinction probably won't give a damn, and might even appreciate the game type’s variety. Wow, you should really think about what you are saying before you post. You can't compare two FPS that are nothing alike, just because they are FPS. Not only is that game play and game structure completely different, but the original Holo already had vehicles, both in the SP and the Multi player modes. the original UT however did not, it was a feature that was added in half way through its life. So There would be no way to have a strong, separate CTF and VCTF community like there is in the UT community.


The opinion remains.
No, it's a fact that the game play and strategies are completely different. As I said before, I could write five pages on the differences alone.. And I'm sure if you went on a pub server and asked their opinion, most would agree that they are distinctly different


Whoa, talk about overreacting! :confused: "Dictatorship"? Doesn't take much for you to turn something into a dictatorship, apparently. "Well over half"? According to what statistics? Not Epic's, I trust.

When a belief, view or action is wrongfully forced upon a community by those in power, that is by right being a dictator. when you ad the DM + the CTF community, yes it is over half. You don't need polls to figure that one out, just some intelligence and observation.


I don't think this forum is as diverse as you imply. Serious players tend to drift towards forums more than casual players. Of all people I know IRL that play the UT series (all casuals), none post here. They'll get UT2007, and they won't shed any tears over relative trivialities such as the mixing of vehicle and classic game types or the departure of the dodge jump. I expect* it do be like that for over half of Epic's customers.

Lets, say that for the sake of argument, MOST, casual players don't come to forums. The fact of the matter is, most casual gamers aren't what sustain the UT community. Most casual gamers have no loyalty to epic, and will cease playing UT to move on to the next cool game. Where as most clans and hardcore fans will sustain the community long after the game should have died. Look at the original UT if you need a reference, all the casual gamers, for the most part have moved on, leaving only diehard fans behind. These same casual players would most likely play any pretty looking game Epic through at them. So it wouldn't matter AT ALL for the majority of casual gamers whether the game types were separated or not. And because they most likely would not care, why would you alienate your hardcore fans and clan members that sustained your community for so long, just so you can make you job one or two days shorter?


* No, I don't have the statistics to back that up, but I trust Epic would not have taken this decision otherwise.
Epic, is looking out for epic. They want to make their jobs easier by combining game types together to cut back on coding. And to ensure that if any game type isn't that successful that the merged game type will pick up the slack and make it less noticeable. And if community togetherness is there goal, than mine as well combine ALL game types and let the admins determine which maps to run. at least then everyone would have to experience the same headache and irritation, and it would force admins to take more responsibility. Besides if my memory serves me right it was done this way in UT, it just turned out to be a major headache, and thus they were separated.


If that were the case, why isn't UT2003 more popular? You make it sound as if people new to the game don't care about its workings at all. Casual gamers generally don't. It's the people that are hardcore fans, or want to become hardcore fans (like those in this forum) that are the ones that care, and determine the length of time a game survives.


A better statement would be that people new to the series will buy the game regardless of what happened in development. After that they will like or dislike the game based on what happened in development.

We already know a good portion of fans don't like the change, how do you know for certain new comers will like it any more than we do? I would rather remain on the safe side and please 95%-100% of players with just keeping them ALL separate.


I would love to explain, but taste cannot be argued.
I'm just glad I don't have such a lax taste as you do. I would rather enjoy what I enjoy without others dictating to me what I should enjoy.

P.S. If Epic wants to combine them for the SP ladder (not instant action), by all means go right a head. You guys could even use it to test out the waters before such an over all radical change in the structure of the game. But for the love of God, leave ALL the game types separate online.

[MonsOlympus]

Wow so I take it you feel the same way I do about trans, most of your arguements could easily be added to trans ctf if thats the case. I know where your coming from because I have to put up with "options" I dont like.

Thing is in the Trans thread people do say how it changes the tactics etc like what you are implying with the vehicles, however it doesnt change the gametype it is still capture the flag. The same thing would happen capture the enemy flag and return it to your flag base. Combining all the gametypes would mean players would be fragging for points, capturing nodes etc so the gametype does actually change.

I like this idea myself and its good to see some players getting a taste of what I have had to put up with as I have never found servers with the settings I like. Now we are getting more variety happening and its not that big a deal to me, like the differences between iCTF, vCTF and Trans CTF is huge anyways. Id love to see all these player bases get combined into a true "CTF" community instead of a fragmented one which will stick to a custom weapon or vehicles only.

Ofcoarse I could use the good ole make your own server response I get used on me all the time....

[TWD]

This just doesn't make any sense at all. There's two options and here's the consequences. I think the choice is obvious.

Look at the huge problems we have with CTF online right now as it stands. It's extreemly difficult to find a game. In fact if I put the filters on to only show me standard CTF servers with players on it, I get like 5 and 3 of them are demo servers. It's extreemly difficult to find a STANDARD game of CTF now days.

Next problem is that this has caused a terrible split in the community. The only people that play CTF now are the extreeme elite clans. We don't get any new blood because the skill level is so unballanced.

Finally it's allowed mutators like UTComp to come in and completely dominate everything, because there isn't enough variety in the CTF community.

Things are bad enough as it is, adding vctf into the same gametype as CTF will only complicate these matters. Soon all of the servers will go to vCTF and anybody that wants to play regular CTF will be left out in the cold in essentially the same condition we are now. It will be difficult to find a server because servers will change between vehicles and non vehicles constantly.

One of the things I keep seeing is people talking about "variety". Putting them together into the same gametype will only decrease the amount of variety, because it will decrease the chances of certain styles of play doing well.

I very much prefer them being seperate. I fail to see any disadvantage. The mapvote mutators allow for switching between gametypes anyways. I think there would be far better community success with this method than there would be having admins filter out the map lists. I'm sure that there's a lot of people that would like to play both and such servers will do well. However there's also a lot of people that don't like the game changing on them that much between maps. Why do you think there's so few servers that do ons AND ctf??

I see several bad points to having them in the same gametype, and no bad points for having them seperate. I think the biggest one of all however is that having them together is going to jade a very large number of hardcore CTF fans, wheras with them seperate I doubt very many people will be offended.

[Night Shadow]

thats why the bots were invented! just put then on god like!

[MonsOlympus]

Originally posted by TWD
Things are bad enough as it is, adding vctf into the same gametype as CTF will only complicate these matters. Soon all of the servers will go to vCTF and anybody that wants to play regular CTF will be left out in the cold in essentially the same condition we are now. It will be difficult to find a server because servers will change between vehicles and non vehicles constantly.

Your right things are bad but alot of the CTF players seem to think vCTF is going to take over and there will be no CTF. Hows about the fact if they are in the same gametype then vCTF players will also have to play CTF maps, well theres your new blood ;)

I can understand where people get the idea with the assualt race maps etc but that wasnt all bad, maps with and without vehicles and turrets thrown in for good measure. I think the gametype rockd, although with its flaws people only see red now. Just saying its going to ruin things is alittle premature, if the people commenting are anything to go by CTF has a long life ahead of it.

Gametype voting can be an option but then again you will also see the same thing but worse with CTF servers being constantly voted to vCTF servers if it does turn out to be more popular. The same can be said for map voting, if servers run random maplist rotations without voting then all players are stuck in the same boat which is kinda how it should be. Either way you end up with the same problem of players choosing server options, which happens alot now, thats why I like this idea. Ive had to put up with playing with options I dont like all the time but as soon as the common setting is challanged, oh boy.

Id have to say atleast give it a chance until we actually know how well it works, if it doesnt epic have always been on the ball with patchs and extra content. There will always be crap maps which might popup from time to time but we havent heard anything on how epic are going to deal with this. If they have taken steps it negates the whole CTF will turn into race maps debate.

I guess the question is where will the masses take us, no single person would be making this choice and epic have probably discussed it to death. If vCTF is the future then perhaps it'll move towards that, I really dont see that happening any time soon because even with an influx of new players at the start of 2k7's life the elitist seem to always get their way. For the rest of us, we just go with the flow but if we had any choice in the matter things might be different for 2k4.

[Xyx]

Oh, the agnony! Like WW3 broke out. Maybe we should wait and see what the demo is like, eh?


If you are playing a single map that much chances are you are playing on an earlier mentioned demo server or prefer being able to dominate a single map with ease. If you truly played a single map THAT much, you wouldn't be able to play the game at all most likely, because you wouldn't know the layout of any other map. Whoa, now who's reading into whose words? :rolleyes: Just because you have a problem switching gears doesn't mean I have.


VCTF also requires less accuracy. The vehicles are huge compared to a player, so precision isn't as important, [...] Most of the vehicles don't require accuracy. Have I got news for you: in vCTF you will still get to go on foot and shoot other people on foot. Sometimes it'll be just like classic CTF. You act as if there are vehicles everywhere all the time. I know vCTF maps that have two Scorpions and a Hellbender per side, and a shortcut for people on foot. Hardly vehicle dominated.


The Levi Play many vCTF games with the Leviathan?


there would be a small fraction of admins that would take the time to sort through the maps, but that amount is insignificant to the amount that would be there if all four game types were separate. Is there some typo in this statement? You're saying that the amount of admins sorting through maps would be even smaller if vehicles had separate gametypes. That would be a good reason not to keep them separate.


you know it. Can I take a turn at that mindreader device you're using?


you will have to click twice to disconnect, and then click twice to reconnect to a server on another game type. Oh and wait while you load the new game type. I do this ALL THE TIME and it's not that difficult or draining. Besides this takes less effort than switching servers every map or two just to play your desired game type. You apparently switch servers "ALL THE TIME" anyway, so what's your problem?


we might as well just combine ALL game types into one, and just vote for what we want played As mentioned before, that is what some servers do already.


I mean who would care if they got on-line to play ONS for the day, but had to play CTF instead, because that is what was voted. Well, obviously you would care, if switching servers were difficult or draining.


Wow, that's not even worth a reply Then why the reply?


You can't compare two FPS that are nothing alike Nothing? Let's see... scifi red versus blue vCTF with assault rifles, sniper rifles, rocket launchers, plasma guns, buggies, tanks, small hovercraft... Strange definition of "nothing". Name me a game that more closely resembles UT vCTF.


the original Holo already had vehicles, both in the SP and the Multi player modes. the original UT however did not, it was a feature that was added in half way through its life. So There would be no way to have a strong, separate CTF and VCTF community like there is in the UT community. The separation is an artifact of the past. We could cling to it for another release, but we'll have to let go sooner or later. Epic seems to prefer sooner.


When a belief, view or action is wrongfully forced upon a community by those in power, that is by right being a dictator. ...and naturally you represent the majority that determines what is right.


Most casual gamers have no loyalty to epic, and will cease playing UT to move on to the next cool game.
Epic will have their money.
They're more likely to keep playing if the game caters to them. How do you think the UT99 community came to be?

why would you alienate your hardcore fans and clan members that sustained your community for so long, just so you can make you job one or two days shorter? Epic, is looking out for epic. They want to make their jobs easier by combining game types together to cut back on coding. Splitting the gametypes wouldn't even take that long. This isn't about development time.


We already know a good portion of fans don't like the change Open door. Hardcore fans never like change except when it fixes some really obvious grievance or somehow improves graphics without eating FPS. If game companies did what harcore fans wanted we'd still be playing Pong.


I'm just glad I don't have such a lax taste as you do. The wisdom that taste cannot be argued has been around for thousands of years. Still you try.


Combining all the gametypes would mean players would be fragging for points, capturing nodes etc so the gametype does actually change. Indeed. The objective determines the gametype, not the map content.


The mapvote mutators allow for switching between gametypes anyways. I have another take on that: the mapvote mutators allow for sticking to classic CTF anyways. That is, unless you're the only one on the server that wants to avoid vehicles. In which case you're on the wrong server anyway.

I bet that if you'd hop onto any random server that's running a classic CTF match, chances are the next map will be classic CTF as well. If you insist that 99% of admins is too ignorant/lazy/evil to pick a classic CTF maplist* and needs to have choices forced onto them**, then I'm sorry for your pessimism.

* if such a maplist weren't the default.
** possibly causing most of them to host a vCTF server instead of a classic CTF server, making it even harder to find a classic CTF match.

[Piglet]

I'm a little surprised at this decision. vCTF and CTF play nearly as different in UT2004 as BR and ONS.

I don't like CTF at all, and vCTF with manta runs just didn't do it for me.

I, for one, am looking forward to playing this to see why Epic thinks it'll work.

[Ahha]

I like CTF and I liked VCTF. At the beginning when ther whas no such thing as manta runs VCTF was extremely fun. Nowadays everyone seems to focus on mantaruns and that SUCKS. When teams are unballanced and a few mantarun guys are in the good team, the match is lost after a few minutes with scores like 10-0. So VCTF and CTF are 2 complete different gametypes and they should not be combined IMHO.

[xi0s]

So you're saying the Flak Cannon, Translocator and Impact Hammer would be considered gametypes? It's 100% interactive with the player and can be used as a weapon and tool. Is there a point in there somewhere?

Uhhh no, my point was that they are not map features... not...gametypes. Funny how you try to use logic to prove a point that I didnt have a point, therefore having a counterpoint, that in itself, is pointless, but thats probably because you missing my point entirely.

Allow me to expand your mind a little on what I was saying.

Most gametypes are differentiated based on the change or limitation of weapon(s) or physics used in them, features based on how the game is played, not neccessarily on how a map is made, except for basic shape changes. Maps arent what make the gametypes, its how people apply whats in them, that make the gametypes. You can build a map based off the gametype, but I wouldnt say they are interchangable and can still be considered the same thing. Capiche?

Regarding differences in weapons and vehicles

Yea weapons and vehicles have about all of two things in common, and so much that is different that, wow, who wouldve thought it can actually change the strategy of the game entirely. Not only for better or worse, but to the point that it is no longer what it was before they were ever included in the game. Why would anyone care so much as to argue about it in forums and irc channels for months. Why would there be 2 different ladders on TWL for each? Do I really have to sit here and explain every single reason why the competetive CTF community does not enjoy VCTF and thats why there is SEPARATION? You think the CTF community should just cater to a new generation, who's only exposure of UT may come from driving vehicles around in a map? And that somehow those two communities can be fused together in given way. Why is there such lack of COHESION between the two? Hmmmm, I desire not to argue what others have already done before.

You can have religions that exist based on our government, but you cannot have a government that exists based on our religion.

Separation of church and state, separation of gametypes and communities.

Also, please enlighten me on how a flak cannon is even remotely the same as vehicles in terms of how its existence would change or shape the actions and strategy of the game(type). Once you attempt to do that, then I'll be happy to point out what you seem to be missing altogether, as well as prove you wrong in every way, shape, form or fashion.

[Kharnellius]

Lol at this thread. People need to learn to chill and give others (Epic) a chance.

A lot of steam and passion for something so minute and unknown.

[Xyx]

they are not map features... not...gametypes. "not map features... not...gametypes" :confused:

Ah, I see you are using un-logic to confuddle me. Well, I had to read it a couple of times but it's working!


Do I really have to sit here and explain every single reason why the competetive CTF community does not enjoy VCTF and thats why there is SEPARATION? Spare me. I've heard tons of competitive gameplay oriented rants already. They all try to reduce the game to a high precision tool for measuring pnwage. This is done by stripping the game of randomness, cosmetics and anything not requiring "skill". After all, you cannot accurately measure pwnage if someone gets a lucky spam hit, has higher FPS/ping or gets an easy frag using mines or tanks. Near the far end of that spectrum you'd have pink enemies bouncing around giant, undecorated grey hallways*.

You're welcome to it, but please excuse me for having a different idea of "fun".

If you think competitive gaming boils down to anything other than the above, feel free to enlighten me.

* Also known as DM-Goliath with brightskins.


You think the CTF community should just cater to a new generation, who's only exposure of UT may come from driving vehicles around in a map? I think it should be a best of both worlds, learning from the past but open to the future.


please enlighten me on how a flak cannon is even remotely the same as vehicles in terms of how its existence would change or shape the actions and strategy of the game(type). That merely requires some abstract thought. both are tools you use in an attempt to realize your goal. Slightly more concrete, you grab them to kill people with.


I'll be happy to point out what you seem to be missing altogether, as well as prove you wrong in every way, shape, form or fashion. Oh damn, not more un-logic, I hope?

[TWD]

I bet that if you'd hop onto any random server that's running a classic CTF match, chances are the next map will be classic CTF as well. If you insist that 99% of admins is too ignorant/lazy/evil to pick a classic CTF maplist* and needs to have choices forced onto them**, then I'm sorry for your pessimism.


You can call it pessimism, but it is meerly an accurate representation of facts. How often do you see people complaining that there isn't enough standard servers, let alone standard CTF servers? Certainly there's enough people to support them, even now, yet they don't exist. There is no way that including vCTF in the mix would improve the situation at all.

[UnrealGrrl]

Standard CTF and vCTF are (currently) considered one gametype and are both categorized under the umbrella name of "Capture the Flag". The presence/absence of vehicles in a map is dependant purely on the map itself. Some may have a separate set vehicles for both teams, some may have universal vehicles in the center, some will have no vehicles at all.

Don't worry, standard CTF is still a focus; we're just expanding things a bit by adding to the baseline "oldskool" gametype.

-E

this is TERRIBLE news. CTF is fine and doesnt need to be "expanded" on. vCTF is a nice gametype by itself, but its NOT CTF. Please leave it that way.


You people tend to over react. :)

We're not forcing you to play vCTF, we're giving you extra maps with the option to play them if you want to (and we think you will once you play 'em). If you don't like them, then take them out of rotation. But also give us credit for more than just dumping a Scorpion into a map and calling it vCTF... a CTF map with vehicles plays differently and needs to be designed differently, we know that.

I know its hard, but don't judge too soon -- I was never a fan of vCTF until we started messing with it and tweaking things. As it stands right now, I think its one of the strongest features of our game, and is an absolute blast to play. We always have to turn people away from CTF test sessions.

And just to reiterate, regular CTF is _definitely_ still a focus and I think this game's offering is shaping up to be our strongest yet. We've got some absolutely amazing talent working on maps, and I don't think the LD team has ever been stronger. Best in the business!


Not true. Yes forumers tend to over react more often than not, but this isnt one of those cases... this is TERRIBLE news to have confirmed.

everything seemed to be going along sooo nicely for UT2007 when all of a sudden vehicles are now part of CTF, WTF?!?! and don't try to pretty it up by saying, its some extra maps for you to play if you want. Epic, you know better than this. But someone up there seems to have entirely missed the boat on the one. Simply put...

CTF players do not want to play vCTF and do not want vehicles in the CTF gametype.
CTF players do not consider vCTF a 'version' of CTF. its a different game entirely and most don't want to play it.
This isnt' about 'giving it a chance'. We tried it, we don't like it. No thank you.
CTF players (used to) make up a large portion of customers, competitve and online players. and would have been a large # of UT2007 customers.

No one here denies the talent and creativity that Epic is bringing to bear on this version of Unreal Tournament, and theres no doubt we'll be blown away by the look and feel of this offering. However the idea that CTF players will learn to love vCTF is misguided and borders on foolish. I'm sure we will love the new maps and environments, but don't confuse a good map with a game type, they have nothing to do with eachother. And don't think a fun or well crafted map is going to make CTF players all of a sudden want to play another gametype which is what vCTF is.

The nutshell version: CTF is not CTF once you add vehicles. vCTF is a different gametype and must be treated as such. Both gametypes deserve attention. Seperate attention. Hope you guys at Epic will consider that this is no small thing... TY!

[Xyx]

This isnt' about 'giving it a chance'. We tried it, we don't like it. No thank you.
I don't feel vCTF had a "proper" chance. We're talking about a stunted gametype that has 99% of its maps in the following three categories:
Looks like crap.
Plays like crap.
Looks like crap and plays like crap.
There is no Face, no Dawn, no Antalus. But there will be, next year.

[WarTourist]

CTF players do not want to play vCTF and do not want vehicles in the CTF gametype.

What's the difference between CTF, and vCTF without the vehicles? :-)

If the fear is that there won't be loads of classic CTF maps without vehicles, that fear is unfounded.

vCTF is fun, but if it's not your cup of tea, don't play the CTF maps with vehicles.

It really is that simple :-)

[Scylla]

I don't feel vCTF had a "proper" chance. We're talking about a stunted gametype that has 99% of its maps in the following three categories:
Looks like crap.
Plays like crap.
Looks like crap and plays like crap.
There is no Face, no Dawn, no Antalus. But there will be, next year.

Face and Antalus weren't designed for vehicles (Antalus wasn't even designed for CTF), and does it really matter than an onsluaght map wasn't in the map list?

I think vehicles could be an important aspect, but only in certain game types. Don't make it so vehicles make up every aspect of the game, you'll lose a lot of people.

[TWD]

What's the difference between CTF, and vCTF without the vehicles? :-)

If the fear is that there won't be loads of classic CTF maps without vehicles, that fear is unfounded.

vCTF is fun, but if it's not your cup of tea, don't play the CTF maps with vehicles.

It really is that simple :-)

I am really starting to believe that people don't understand what it is we're complaining about.

I don't want to have to switch servers every other map. I don't want to join a server only to find out it's running a vCTF map I've never heard of.

I want to start the game click internet select CTF from a dropdown menu, and select the first server on the list, and be completely happy with the results. That's what I'm talking about. The type of game I want to play quickly easily minimum effort, a large variety of people to play with, good ping. With the current method that will not be the case.

I keep seeing the comment if you don't want to do that then don't play the maps with vehicles. This only highlights exactly what I'm talking about. There are some times where I won't want to play the maps with vehicles. What you are doing is making it more difficult for me to do so.

[Nietzsche]

[...] There are some times where I won't want to play the maps with vehicles. What you are doing is making it more difficult for me to do so.

Actually it's really easy to achieve that, just play 2k4 or 99.

You all really should chill. Maybe even should get some cheese, it goes really well with all the whine :>

[TWD]

Actually it's really easy to achieve that, just play 2k4 or 99.


and this is where I would again point out that with the stardard servers filter and remove servers with 0 players on I get like 5 servers and 3 of them are demo servers.

[Nietzsche]

and this is where I would again point out that with the stardard servers filter and remove servers with 0 players on I get like 5 servers and 3 of them are demo servers.

So and still you think it needs no changing? ...

[Scylla]

That merely requires some abstract thought. both are tools you use in an attempt to realize your goal. Slightly more concrete, you grab them to kill people with

Weapons are more important than vehicles in a FPS. There are tons of FPS games without vehicles that are successful. Not to mention it wouldn't really be a FPS without weapons. Vehicles may be a nice touch to certain things, but aren't mandatory.

You need weapons for a FPS to work. You don't need vehicles.

[UnrealGrrl]

Much as I hate to say it, I might do the same.

Why? Because it'll remove any chance I have of playing public servers.

Why? Because every pub server will run with both vehicle and non-vehicle maps. Because lots of server admins aren't bright enough (or don't care enough) to seperate them.

I don't want to play with vehicles. But under a combined system, the server will keep switching to a vCTF map. Which will cause me to quit the server. Which will ruin any chance I have of enjoying a nice long series of games with the same players. Everey time it switches to a vCTF map I'll have to search for a server that isn't running a vCTF map. Not a fun way to spend an evening. Eventually the hassle of having to change servers every other map ill mean that my enjoyment of the game is reduced, along with the likelyhood of me actually playing it. The same's going to be true of someone who wants to play vehicle maps.

But hey, Epic won't give a damn, because I'll have already bought the game...

and also a very good point. besides the fact that these are not the same gametype by a longshot, this will make finding and continuing to play a gametype that you already like, very difficult at best.

besides stomping on the competitive player base and further dividing an already wounded community that we hoped ut2007 would help revive! Epic made a great move taking away the lesser played gametypes and consolidating to the popular types. Dont ruin that move by mucking up CTF (arguably the most popular through the UT franchise) with changes to an already solid, long standing, well established gametype.

[TWD]

I believe the situation is already bad in 2k3/2k4, and including ctf and vCTF will only make the situation WORSE.

[p2xelgen]

CTF OR VCTF, who cares. I'm sure Epic will hit us from both angles.

It’s all able Evolution, taking something old school and turning into something more. That’s what Epic does best, and there right they do have some of the best LD’s in the business.

So let them go forth and be: Inventive Imaginative Creative ;)

[Nietzsche]

I really think the community should give the idea of CTF/vCTF a thought or even several thoughts.

There shouldn't be a doubt that this is a good thing for the pubs. I really can't see why anyone would be against this except for two reasons:
a) plays competitive CTF and wants to "train", well no one really does that on pubs, but you get the idea
b) ignorance

for the latter we can't do much, but if you belong two the first group:

Wouldn't it be a good thing to just play competitive CTF on vCTF maps? I know it's a drastic change and at first glance a lot of ppl will really not like that idea, but I think this really is what YOU should consider to do. Everyone who plays ONS knows that the vehicles are by far not as powerful as some of the ppl in this thread believe/want them to be and I am pretty sure that they will fit great into the mod on well designed maps.

You really should see this as a really big chance for CTF.

Try to think of it as CTF where some maps are with and some are w/o vehicles. I know a lot of you want to keep playing a great mod and want as few changes to it as possible, but vehicles are a big issue and including them into CTF will give you the chance to get a really massive playerbase for competitive gaming and in the end that's all that matters.

[UnrealGrrl]

What's the difference between CTF, and vCTF without the vehicles? :-)

If the fear is that there won't be loads of classic CTF maps without vehicles, that fear is unfounded.

vCTF is fun, but if it's not your cup of tea, don't play the CTF maps with vehicles.

It really is that simple :-)

:) but its really not that simple...

Ok. I was hoping that wouldnt be the answer but because it was I can see that you guys are entirely missing the point. I know when you're play testing and having fun going between gametypes and enjoying the project you are working on everything is awesome (and it should be!) and so this may not be apparent, But...

when the CTF community of players (casual, pro, everyone) is talking about "CTF Players" we are talking about a customer (player) that plays CTF. Not an expanded or modified gametype (which vCTF is). The messages that are being posted above (and discussed throughout the community) that seem to be ignored are coming from all sides of the unreal universe. And they are resoundingly stating (what seems obvious to us) that CTF does not want or need to be 'added to' or mixed up with another gametype. Especially vCTF which is just about the antithesis of CTF.

WTH?! "vCTF is fun, but if it's not your cup of tea, don't play the CTF maps with vehicles." By that same idea/logic you could say lets make CTF/iCTF and DM/iDM one game type. If you don't like Instagib, just dont play it when that map comes up. No one in their right mind would say Instagib games are the same gametype as standard CTF or DM and the same is true of vehicle based CTF or DM. They are a different gametype and the players that enjoy DM and especially CTF (generally) do not want to play them.

Now thats Simple - really. ;)

and I have to agree with TWD - it really seems that anyone responding like that just doesn't "get" what everyone who's upset with this development is saying...

[p2xelgen]

Change is hard, but its coming and I cant wait... :p

[TWD]

I really think this is a bigger issue than some of you want to believe. I've seen a lot of over reacting in this community for sure, but when even UnrealGrrl starts talking like that I take note.

I don't even want to think about what happens when a thread gets posted on prounreal, and the competative CTF clans.

[Nietzsche]

[...]
No one in their right mind would say Instagib games are the same gametype as standard CTF or DM and the same is true of vehicle based CTF or DM. They are a different gametype and the players that enjoy DM and especially CTF (generally) do not want to play them.

CTF = Capture the Flag; you do know that in vCTF you just do that, right? and in DM it's about #frags, see the difference and the similarities between the one and the other?


[...]
and I have to agree with TWD - it really seems that anyone responding like that just doesn't "get" what everyone who's upset with this development is saying...

I guess we all do get it, you fear that the competitive mod CTF will suffer if the pub mod CTF is modified by adding vehicles to it. I doubt that this will be the case, either the community will take the chance and try to add the vehicles to the competitive mod or they won't and then i can't see a problem either.

[UnrealGrrl]

I really think this is a bigger issue than some of you want to believe. I've seen a lot of over reacting in this community for sure, but when even UnrealGrrl starts talking like that I take note.

I don't even want to think about what happens when a thread gets posted on prounreal, and the competative CTF clans.

ps. yaknow, im a non competitive hard core player that still plays CTF online almost daily, i own 5 copies of UT2004 and turn lotsa people onto the game all the time. I'm also a CTF player and, to me, that means CTF. Not iCTF or vCTF or xCTF whatever. I'm also a mod contributor who's been doing it unreal since 1999 and i have never ever considered not playing, buying, modding or promoting the next version of the game, because Unreal has always been the best. but this is a really bad move and shows complete lack of understanding of the players and fanbase.... :(

[WarTourist]

it really seems that anyone responding like that just doesn't "get" what everyone who's upset with this development is saying...

That’s why we ask questions :-).

To summarize, you don't have faith that server operators will cater to "pure" CTF players and that every time you play on a CTF server you'll be ambushed by a vCTF map. You believe that having vCTF and CTF as separate categories that can be filtered against in the server browser will address this.

Is that about it?

[fuegerstef]

You believe that having vCTF and CTF as separate categories that can be filtered against in the server browser will address this.

Is that about it?

Yes, to me (and a few others) it is.

I even wouldn't mind if it is ONE gametype where I can filter out servers with/without vehicle maps in the rotation.

I am not for or against CTF with vehicles. I only would like to easily find servers with pure CTF or pure vCTF. SImilar to finding iCTF before it got a seperate gametype by filtering it out or searching for CTF with the instagib mutator.

[UnrealGrrl]

what you posted.

hi N... some good points but - its all been discussed before.
vCTF is fine as it is. CTF players are not ignorant, this is just an old topic. CTF players dont want to play a different gametype called vCTF and CTF does not need vehicles. There are those who like both and the individual player community for each gametype do fine as they are. Seperately.



CTF = Capture the Flag; you do know that in vCTF you just do that, right? and in DM it's about #frags, see the difference and the similarities between the one and the other?

I guess we all do get it, you fear that the competitive mod CTF will suffer if the pub mod CTF is modified by adding vehicles to it. I doubt that this will be the case, either the community will take the chance and try to add the vehicles to the competitive mod or they won't and then i can't see a problem either.

lol - i guess you just got here but as above i've been unreal CTFing since '99...

and i don't speak for anyone but myself and especially not for the competitive community of which i'm not a skilled enough player to be a part of, but i do know that this is not good for the 'pro' player and i do know that like almost every other CTF player, they will not be happy about it. but unlike casual players, they will prob just buy another game and play something else besides unreal cause important gameplay decisions really do matter to them ;)

[NeoPhoenixIIM]

Wow your response was really pathetic Xyx. I read through half of it and realized you have no idea what you are talking about. This is plainly obvious in the fact that you don't back your statements up with any fact, and you did nothing but take what I said out of context. Over half of what you quoted on me were not complete sentences. I kind of feel sorry for you. I write four pages worth of evidence, and you wrote 2 pages of an unrelated inconclusive argument.

I'll respond to others like MonsOlympus who actually take time to support their claims tomorrow after my exam. But right now I'm going to go study

[UnrealGrrl]

That’s why we ask questions :-).

To summarize, you don't have faith that server operators will cater to "pure" CTF players and that every time you play on a CTF server you'll be ambushed by a vCTF map. You believe that having vCTF and CTF as separate categories that can be filtered against in the server browser will address this.

Is that about it?

WT - thanks for the reply - I'm glad we got your attention :)

um, yes and no. I do have faith that some server operators will run CTF servers, some will run vCTF servers and some will run servers that play both types of maps... the problem goes further than that and thats where i think the boat sailed a little bit on this one.

I have get some work done and pay the bills now but I will reply fully later with clear thoughts on this because it is a really important topic / gameplay situation that should be a simple thing to work out. TY!

[Zynith]

Maybe it would be a good idea to the extend gametype browser with basic filtering.
e.g:



...
*Deathmatch
*Onslaught
*Capture the flag | allows vehicles
-No vehicles | disallows vehicles
-Only vehicles | only allows vehicles
...


The ideal system would be one that doesn't clutter, but also doesn't fragment while at the same time keeping things as easy as possible on the end user.
It's better to come up with a solution both parties agree upon.

[»madMar†y»]

What's the difference between CTF, and vCTF without the vehicles? :-)

If the fear is that there won't be loads of classic CTF maps without vehicles, that fear is unfounded.

vCTF is fun, but if it's not your cup of tea, don't play the CTF maps with vehicles.

It really is that simple :-)Maps that are designed for vehicles are usually a lot bigger and at the moment you get the vehicles out of a map that is designed for vehicles I'm not sure if that is going to work. :confused: I think that there even more differences between a CTF map and a vCTF map, that can't be just ignored.

Though I think that with maps like Aggressive Alleys it could probably work.

[Selerox]

To summarize, you don't have faith that server operators will cater to "pure" CTF players and that every time you play on a CTF server you'll be ambushed by a vCTF map. You believe that having vCTF and CTF as separate categories that can be filtered against in the server browser will address this.

Yes on both counts.

As it stands (my opinions only about my situation as a UT player):

I have absolutely no faith in the ability of server admins to not ram vCTF maps down my throat.

I think that I'm going to have to switch servers every time a vCTF map shows, and that will be often.

I think that will limit my enjoyment of CTF, because I'll never be able to find a decent game.

I think that seperating vCTF and standard CTF will have no detrimental effects on either community, and may even help vCTF by giving it more of the spotlight.

I think that combining both vCTF and CTF in the same gametype will hurt standard CTF and will limit the chances of it recovering from the full-scale collapse seen in UT200x.

[EntropicLqd]

vCTF is fun, but if it's not your cup of tea, don't play the CTF maps with vehicles.

It really is that simple :-)
I presume it will be made even more simple by the addition of a drop down list within the CTF configuration that allows you to select "maps with vehicles", "maps without vehicles", and "all maps" when configuring the CTF options.

Just for the record, I have no real preference. A mix of both would be nice. But I can understand why people are concerned.


I don't want to have to switch servers every other map. I don't want to join a server only to find out it's running a vCTF map I've never heard of.

I have absolutely no faith in the ability of server admins to not ram vCTF maps down my throat.
That's an easy problem to solve though. Rent your own server and then configure it however you like. If you feel like a change then re-configure the server. It's not hard; after all servers are not democracies.

[MonsOlympus]

Originally posted by »madMar†y»
Maps that are designed for vehicles are usually a lot bigger and at the moment you get the vehicles out of a map that is designed for vehicles I'm not sure if that is going to work. I think that there even more differences between a CTF map and a vCTF map, that can't be just ignored.

Thats a really good point, see it is alot more about maps than gametypes as some people seem to think. The filter Im sure is going to be improved, especially since epic is looking at this discussion, it might have been done already for all we know.

See it probably comes down to logistics, a map large enough to support 32 players is most likely too large for standard ctf even with the trans. Perhaps this is a good reason why to add them under one roof, having vehicles in there will make it less of an infantry run and more strategic. Also consider the vehicle or even turrets used in the maps, Im sure there wont be a levithan around every corner.

We saw alot of bigger maps in 2k4 but they didnt seem to work very well since snipers pretty much dominated the field if given a chance. Vehicles will help to balance maps of this size by allowing infantry and ofcoarse vehicles to get up close and personal which is what 2k7 seems to be about. You'll get people being towed in on hoverboards quickly for even more rapid offensive moves. I can imagine this quicker than trans offense, dont forget the extra skills involved for classic CTF players to learn.

I must admit I draw conclusions about 2k7 based on 2k4 all the time but we really shouldnt, even though I did it above and plenty of other people do it. Since we cant get our hands on the game to try it (yet) it is really the only option, Im just hoping people arnt thinking that all the stuff they dont like in 2k4 will filter through. Im gonna give epic the benifit of the doubt because I know they are doing their job, I mean we dont get paid to sit here and crit while they do :p

[Scylla]

...
*Deathmatch
*Onslaught
*Capture the flag | allows vehicles
-No vehicles | disallows vehicles
-Only vehicles | only allows vehicles
...



So what you just said there is basically what UT 2004 has now (browse different game types).

[WarTourist]

Maps that are designed for vehicles are usually a lot bigger and at the moment you get the vehicles out of a map that is designed for vehicles I'm not sure if that is going to work. :confused:

We're not saying the same CTF map will support both styles. Some CTF maps are being designed for vehicles and some aren't.

[UnrealGrrl]

I'm going to have to switch servers every time a vCTF map shows, and that will be often.

I think that seperating vCTF and standard CTF will have no detrimental effects on either community.

It may even help vCTF by giving it more of the spotlight.

I think that combining both vCTF and CTF in the same gametype will hurt standard CTF


AGREE WITH ALL THE ABOVE!

ok, so i'll go to work late shift... above quoted for truth (paraphrased and emphasis added, edited etc.)

and to add to that

I dont mistrust server admins. the problem is if a choice has to be made, CTF, vCTF or both, (default being both) the choice for most server admins will be both.

what's the problem? the problem is, that in general most CTF players do not view vCTF as the same gametype and don't want to play it instead of CTF. this doesn't have anything to do with how good the maps are or how much the gametype has been tweaked. I think what you (Epic) may be failing to realize or remember is that most UT players have a favorite gametype and...

(here comes the important part)

...most players ONLY PLAY THAT GAMETYPE because they enjoy the gameplay that gametype offers above all others.

this is key to the problem with combining two very different gametypes. vCTF does not play anything like CTF. (for the n00bies in the audience, yes they both have flags but the similarities end there). Epic, I know that you know this and can't impress how important it is that these two very different types of game don't get thrown together because theres a very good reason they do not have the same player base.

it may be hard to even imagine anyone wont enjoy a facet of UT2007 while youre playtesting the days and nights away (you lucky dogs!) but in the end, most players primarily play one gametype, and messing with whats arguably been the most popular gametype through UTs existence is a mistake.

public servers are the lifeblood of the online community. if a public server is to become popular and remain a gathering place for players, it has to be consistant. (besides having a good admin and community behind it). if theres no consistancy, theres no server and without good servers theres no online community. and if players can't find servers they like, theyll find another game to play and nobody wants that...

[Zynith]

So what you just said there is basically what UT 2004 has now (browse different game types).

Argh, forum took out multiple spaces.

I mean a small hierarchical system within the gametype selection box.
So if you just click CTF you get everything, but you still get the ability to filter
out vehicles by clicking one of the subcatergories.

It's basically the idea of having a basic filter system build-in in the gametype dropdown box.
Would be a good thing since i'm sure 90% of the casual players never uses filters when selecting servers.

I guess you could do such a thing on either server parameters or on maprotation.

[Scylla]

I think it would be better kept the way it is currently.

BTW I would prefer CTF and vCTF to be two seperate gametypes.

[UnrealGrrl]

We're not saying the same CTF map will support both styles. Some CTF maps are being designed for vehicles and some aren't.

and theres (another) problem that further proves the point. maps are designed for a gametype, for one gametype and not another, that just goes to show again that we're talking two different gametypes here. why on earth would you combine the two (dare i say it again? :) ) very different game types? this is just proving the point that they do not belong in the same breath, let alone the same gametype.


Maybe it would be a good idea to the extend gametype browser with basic filtering.
The ideal system would be one that doesn't clutter, but also doesn't fragment while at the same time keeping things as easy as possible on the end user.

we do need a better filter system and your suggestion is fine for mutators.
The problem here is Epic is saying they want to merge 2 different gametypes...

Simple is good - the gametype list should read:

CAPTURE THE FLAG
VEHICLE CTF
DEATHMATCH
TEAM DEATHMATCH
INSTAGIB
ONSLAUGHT
WARFARE

of course followed by whatever mods or gametypes you have installed like Jailbreak ,TacOps, etc.

[MonsOlympus]

Originally posted by UnrealGrrl
what's the problem? the problem is, that in general most CTF players do not view vCTF as the same gametype and don't want to play it instead of CTF. this doesn't have anything to do with how good the maps are or how much the gametype has been tweaked. I think what you (Epic) may be failing to realize or remember is that most UT players have a favorite gametype and...

(here comes the important part)

...most players ONLY PLAY THAT GAMETYPE because they enjoy the gameplay that gametype offers above all others.

this is key to the problem with combining two very different gametypes. vCTF does not play anything like CTF. (for the n00bies in the audience, yes they both have flags but the similarities end there). Epic, I know that you know this and can't impress how important it is that these two very different types of game don't get thrown together because theres a very good reason they do not have the same player base.

I think your under estimating the sway players have with server admins, I for one have witnessed this first hand and is a main reason for alot of my support on this one. I could sit here and say how much I dislike something till the cows come home but Im usually in a minority, which tends to be bigger than a majority when you add all the little splinter cells together.

I mean I could say how I prefer no trans CTF or that I like the occasional iCTF and yes I'll even play vCTF. If these are rolled into one Id be very happy, on the flipside which is now in 2k4 I have to put up with standard trans ctf with no adrenaline and usually utcomp. Now can you see where Im coming from with saying people are getting a taste of their own medicine for a change.

Like Ive said before I understand the position fully but I find it very hard to sympathise because of what I have been through. Ofcoarse Im complaining and everyone will be like just take it and start your own server, your not a clan player etc but right now the shoes on the other foot. How about some sort of recognition to the people who dont only play classic ctf or perfer things alittle different. If server admins are the problem how about we as a community fix it or perhaps adjust our attitudes alittle and realise we are not the only one's who plays the game.

I do have a favourite gametype which happens to be DM, do you see me complaining about vDM well thats a big no. I might not like it hey but on the other hand I might, I see plenty of people only playing certain maps in DM so they can do better or have more fun, why should CTF be any different. All I can say is Im not going to change server because of some little grammer seperating snobs from noobs, well I leave it at that...

[ShredPrince]

VCTF is just a gay idea. I thought it sounded cool two years ago, but it just does not work IMO....Maybe Epic will do better job.

EDIT:

I was just trying to say that the current form of VCTF in UT2004 is crappy cause it's a mod.

I was making the point that maybe the EPIC GAMES version will be much better....Should have been clearer about that.

* When i first heard the idea, I thought it sounded great.Then online it stank, but thats was not Epics thing.

[Wowbagger]

One thing i surely will have a problem with is to play one map with TL (CTF) and then the next map its gone and ill have to use the Hoverboard (vCTF) instead.

Its been confirmed by Steve Polge that the Hoverboard will replace the TL in vCTF maps. (of course that can change after Months of playtesting)

[Hamburger]

VCTF is just a gay idea. I thought it sounded cool two years ago, but it just does not work IMO....Maybe Epic will do better job.Arrrr remove your self from the forum, VCTF hater. :mad:

:)

[UnrealGrrl]

One thing i surely will have a problem with is to play one map with TL (CTF) and then the next map its gone and ill have to use the Hoverboard (vCTF) instead.

Its been confirmed by Steve Polge that the Hoverboard will replace the TL in vCTF maps. (of course that can change after Months of playtesting)

another good reason to keep these games apart...

the gameplay dynamic of CTF vs. vCTF is so far apart i don't see how anyone can even think about setting up UT2007 so that they appear as the same gametype...
existing players are happy with CTF gameplay as it is, have been for a looong time, and vCTF is a growing and popular gametype.

to purposely muck up the gears by trying to merge these two together is obviously beyond me and most other players.

if you want to play a standard CTF game, that doesn't include vehicles or hoverboards in place of the TL. and if you want to play vCTF, that doesnt include the TL or lack of vehicles. how is merging these game types going to make anyone happy. (we know you're making great maps for both gametypes, thats a given, we hope the maps rock!)

this isnt a matter of hoping that server admins get it right. this needs to be handled by the game. CTF here and vCTF over there. make your own choice.

maybe its just a matter of presentation to understand the deal here. i don't personally care if the engine or the interface treats them as the same thing. its probably(?) great for a mappers too. But when a player is browsing for a game, there needs to be a distinct difference in selections and an obvious way to find CTF or vCTF.
Important: Not something you need to filter and not something you have to go to a submenu for.
When I select CTF from the gametype menu, I need to get a list back of CTF servers (not CTF AND vCTF servers) and the same goes for the player who wants vCTF or any other gametype.

...yaknow what would be cool is if you could select multiple gametypes to browse for like CTF & ONS, or Warfare & vCTF for example. but thats another topic...

notice that popular CTF servers don't run vCTF maps and the most popular vCTF servers dont regularly run CTF maps either. (with the possible exception of BeyondUnreal which runs all gametypes during FragBU) theres a reason for that.

i think its great Epic is supporting vCTF and doing retail maps that will knock our sox off, but lets not confuse the issue and mess up what was a good thing by removing the lesser played gametypes by mixing up the current ones...

[EntropicLqd]

What I think we are seeing here is Epic's reaction to making CTF with the instagib mutator a separate gametype within the server browser. I think they felt that it simply presented people with too many options straight off the bat; working against their "less is more" drive for UT2007.

What is the aim of the game in classic CTF? What about CTF with vehicles? Or perhaps CTF with the instagib mutator? How about CTF with low-grav, instagib, carry-the-flag, super-jump, 2xspeed, big head mutators? It is to Capture the Flag.

At the end of the day servers are dictatorships (no matter how benevolent). He who pays for the server chooses the gametype so to speak. It amazes me that the general opinion is that the assumption is that the people paying for the servers are all going to run servers with both types of map set up.

Either the majority of people will think that the two should be separate; in which case you'll see a split in the CTF maps available on any given server (with vehicles and without). Or the majority of server admins will prefer their CTF game mixed up a little; in which case you'll just have to get over it and go with the majority, or, rent your own server and set it up how you like.

I really don't think this is going to be the big scary deal that it is being made out to be.

[Stoned Rhyno]

I think it is more fitting to merge all vehicle based maps into the warfare gametype. ;)

It is also nonsense to limit the amount of gametypes for reason and still seperate onslaught and warfare, which just play nearly the same way.


btw: how many maps will there aproximately be on every gametype and how many will be vehicle based?

If there would be only 3 vCTF out of 10 CTF and 1 vDM out of 20 DM, i don´t see a problem with that.

[Scylla]

seperate onslaught and warfare, which just play nearly the same way.

Idd, I thought that they were playing onslaught in the trailer released some time ago.

[Xyx]

Face and Antalus weren't designed for vehicles That was not my point. Face, Dawn and Antalus are maps that both look good and play well. Unlike 99% of UT2004 vehicle CTF maps. Epic at least has a chance to get that right this time.


You need weapons for a FPS to work. You don't need vehicles. Exactly what Epic must have been thinking when they lumped classic CTF and vehicle CTF together. After all, classic CTF is just vehicle CTF without vehicles.*

* Yes, I know that changes the tactics yadda yadda not my point.


Wow your response was really pathetic Xyx. I read through half of it and realized you have no idea what you are talking about. This is plainly obvious in the fact that you don't back your statements up with any fact, and you did nothing but take what I said out of context. Over half of what you quoted on me were not complete sentences. I kind of feel sorry for you. I write four pages worth of evidence, and you wrote 2 pages of an unrelated inconclusive argument. There is plenty of logic to reason with, whether you agree with it or not. You could have tried to prove me wrong, but you instead chose to avoid it with a childish sneer. I accept your ungracious withdrawal from this debate. Good day, sir.


Simple is good - the gametype list should read:

CAPTURE THE FLAG
VEHICLE CTF
DEATHMATCH
TEAM DEATHMATCH
INSTAGIB
ONSLAUGHT
WARFARE Simpler, with more logic:

Capture The Flag
Deathmatch
Team Deathmatch
Onslaught
Warfare

With subchoices when a gametype is selected (no choice being either way is fine). Suppose Capture The Flag is selected:

Capture The Flag
[ ] Show maps with vehicles.
[Yes] Show maps with translocator.
[No] Show instagib* maps.
Deathmatch
Team Deathmatch
Onslaught
Warfare

Or when Deathmatch (or Team Deathmatch) is selected:

Capture The Flag
Deathmatch
[No] Show maps with vehicles.
[ ] Show instagib maps.
Team Deathmatch
Onslaught
Warfare

Or when Onslaught or Warfare are selected:

Capture The Flag
Deathmatch
Team Deathmatch
Onslaught
[ ] Show maps with vehicles.
Warfare

This distinction is made first on objective (capture flags, kill people not your color, destroy powernodes...), then on map type (with or without vehicles, normal weapons or instagib). To me, the objectives determine the gametype, not the map type.

If you think the distinction can be made on map type, please show me your idea of the server browser. ;)

* Yes, Instagib is listed separately. It requires different maps to be played properly.


to purposely muck up the gears by trying to merge these two together is obviously beyond me and most other players. Our voice is but your own, not that of "most other players".


It is also nonsense to limit the amount of gametypes for reason and still seperate onslaught and warfare, which just play nearly the same way. Onslaught and Warfare have different objectives and different maps. If you'd consistently lump gametypes together that have different objectives and gametypes I fear you'd end up with one giant gametype.

[Gregori]

If Warfare ends up ridiculously similar to Onslaught, the two should be merged!

[Kharnellius]

If Warfare ends up ridiculously similar to Onslaught, the two should be merged!I was unaware that they were seperate gametypes. :confused:

[Roulette]

Xyx, I'd accept that server browser with one change:


Capture The Flag
[ ] Show servers with vehicles.
[Yes] Show servers with translocator.
[No] Show instagib* servers.

If a server's map rotation includes vCTF maps, it sets a marker that allows the browser to filter the server out entirely so that you don't have to jump servers after a map switch. Of course, in order to work with custom maps, there would have to be a marker in the map to identify it as a vCTF map, but I think that would be in there already to allow the server to turn off the x-loc.

Otherwise, your solution isn't really a solution to the real problem. It'll filter out the current map, but not the other maps in the list. Thus, those of us that would like to play on pure vCTF or pure CTF would still be faced with the possibility of switching game types after every map.

[Jake-SF]

Xyx, I'd accept that server browser with one change:



If a server's map rotation includes vCTF maps, it sets a marker that allows the browser to filter the server out entirely so that you don't have to jump servers after a map switch. Of course, in order to work with custom maps, there would have to be a marker in the map to identify it as a vCTF map, but I think that would be in there already to allow the server to turn off the x-loc.

Otherwise, your solution isn't really a solution to the real. It'll filter out the current map, but not the other maps in the list. Thus, those of us that would like to play on pure vCTF or pure CTF would still be faced with the possibility of switching game types after every map.

Agree 100%. Hell, its should be a MUST in the game.

[MonsOlympus]

As much as I like these map rotation/filtering idea's, did you guys bother to notice than in doing that you've just added 3x more servers from no where..

Well perhaps it'll be the 1x split 0.33333 ways, oh no so I have less servers to play on for 2k7 than 2k4 has. Im gonna be really annoyed if they all start turning into pure CTF servers for the hell of it. As you can tell I dont have much faith in server admins, especially with some of the horrible maps Ive had to play in my time and yup that includes trans ctf.

Dont get me wrong a decent filter and ingame map rating system of some sort would be perfect to solve most of the issues have with this merger. This goes for any gametype in its 2k4 condition as well though so where is the real issue?

Are people really that lazy they cant setup acouple of filters or have some decent ones there already when you install. No doubt most of you work up a list of favourites anyways which is alot quicker than stuffing around with v's and i's.

By seperating them and being for that then you are essentially saying that you want nothing to do with the people who play CTF with vehicles or without, depending on your fav. I think what Epic is trying to do is make pubs more fun by merging the two so all players get alittle something they like instead of just the classic CTF crowd. They are sending the perfect message to the community and exactly what we needed to hear after 2k4, but you guys still go at it with the crowbar making things only worse for yourselves.

[mwalt2]

UnrealGrrl makes a lot of good points. I enjoy playing CTF with a translocator. There needs be an easy to tell if a server is going to have vehicles in it or not. I'm glad that Epic employees are reading this and at least get a feel of of how many players feel. I'm sure the separate CTF/vCTF feeling would be shared by the vast majority of CTF'ers I've ever played with. I also can't imagine people who play dm/tdm all the time really want vehicles in those gametypes either. Heck, 4 grenades was too much spam for 4v4 tdm...I just wonder what they'll think of a goliath :eek: . Even with separation of vehicle/more classic gametypes, there should be far fewer gametypes than in UT2k4 (UT2003 style, UT99 style, BR, Invasion, etc. all gone).

[Roulette]

By seperating them and being for that then you are essentially saying that you want nothing to do with the people who play CTF with vehicles or without, depending on your fav.

Actually, I want nothing to do with switching gametypes back and forth. I generally settle in for 4 hour sessions, and I almost never switch gametpyes while doing this. When I'm in the mood for IG, that's what I do. CTF, TDM, ONS... what I do, I do for long stretches. This, interrupts that flow.

Epic is trying to pretend as if the two games are the same, and should thus be merged. By doing this, they get an automatic audience for their new vCTF maps, by basically holding the (v)CTF community hostage and forcing us to deal with it.

I think vCTF will be a lot of fun and I expect to clan for it. But, and this is the kicker, if I don't like it or I'm not in the mood to play it that particular day, I don't want to be forced to deal with it or avoid it every time an admin includes the maps in his rotation. And if I can't remove it, that's exactly what they're forcing me to do. I don't care how they allow me to avoid it; filter, game type listing, whatever. But assuming the entire CTF and vCTF community is interested in playing both game types is flawed thinking IMO.

[MonsOlympus]

Yeah thats understandable, as you can tell Im still on the sideline more than for or against this. If you look at what I have said a few times is that players like you (this isnt meant in a negative way) are forcing me to have to change servers the same way you are saying. You get me, the door swings both ways on this one I get forced to play ironic, rankin and grendel time after time after time. Let alone having to put up with face classic for the last how ever many years.

See the "ironic" thing is you guys are complaining about the same things I have been for ages yet you seem to almost ignore me completely like I dont understand or havent been in the same position myself. I mean atleast you guys are gonna have upgraded graphics, AI etc wheres Ive had to put up with playing 2k4 offline and Im sure many others have as well because we prefer alittle more variety not the same maps over and over with the same characters and 2 weapons being so predominant.

Its good to hear you'll take part in the vCTF community though it shows you'll atleast give it a go even if you end up not liking it.


Epic is trying to pretend as if the two games are the same, and should thus be merged. By doing this, they get an automatic audience for their new vCTF maps, by basically holding the (v)CTF community hostage and forcing us to deal with it.

See this is what you might think but I said earlier about players having pull with server admins. Ive been held hostage by the community long enough its time to move on to bigger and better things, no this doesnt mean vehicles, it means a bigger community with more variety in gameplay as well as gametypes and maps. Ofcoarse there is differences and it might effect your flow, but its all about fun isnt it? Thats why you play the same gametype for 4 hours or so its for the love of the gametype, so is it that much to ask that you take 1 match out of 5 for a vCTF one. Im not going to force you to play it but if I have to play the same map 5 times in an hour again Im going to puke!

[A_Spec]

why can't we all just get along? :<

[Roulette]

Both sides forced to play on the same server in the interest of unity and understanding? Optimistic appraisal IMO.

I for one will not be doing so. If they're blended, as Epic says, and there is no easy way to filter them out, I know exactly what I'll do. Spend about 2 weeks looking for servers running one type or the other. Settle down and play on those. If they're full or not available, I won't play either type. So in the very least, I won't be joining in the greater community. Feel free to fault me for that, but that's how I see it.

If nothing else, I refuse to do all the .ini switching from one game type to another. I don't think Epic is planning on making it easy change multiple binds between maps to account for difference in weapons, vehicles and situational requirements. I know that's a minor concern to most players, but my vehicle binds and my x-loc binds share space depending on what I'm doing. It doesn't make much sense to have a handy teamsay bind asking for a ride if rides are not available, ya know?

[MonsOlympus]

I for one will not be doing so. If they're blended, as Epic says, and there is no easy way to filter them out, I know exactly what I'll do. Spend about 2 weeks looking for servers running one type or the other. Settle down and play on those. If they're full or not available, I won't play either type. So in the very least, I won't be joining in the greater community. Feel free to fault me for that, but that's how I see it.

Bingo and nope not a fault here, you can see exactly where I am. I only take part occasionally in pubs and play mostly offline right now for this very reason ;)

Well maybe not the blending of the gametypes but because I can never find a decent server and when I do its full of all this bull I prefer to do without. Give alittle get alittle really is the attitude, you guys threaten epic right now but how many people like me do you think there are compared to registered players atm? If this could be combined to almost double the community, let alone adding the fresh blood. I just really dont see what the big deal is.....

I definatly want to see 2k7 rival bf2 and other EA developed and produced online games, even rivaling cs would be awsome. If you guys dont want to be a part of something that great thats your choice I guess.

[Piglet]

Nice to see some constructive input here!

I'm another who plays one gametype for a stretch before switching. I'd really not want to switch from vCTF to CTF and back in a rotation. It'd push me off the server to somewhere I knew had one or the other.

That's unless the changes to both CTF and vCTF are so radical that they are completely different to UT2004 CTF and vCTF....and if so then there's more to worry the 'leet clannie types then the two games being merged..

[MuLuNGuS]

it's still easy..

activate the filter:

-[x] don't show servers with vehicles

-join a server!

-Play!

[MonsOlympus]

Perhaps if we knew the amount of levels CTF and vCTF actually have then people might see things different. I cant see a huge amount of vehicle ones because of other vehicles gametypes already so if theres say 8-12 CTF's and say 2-4 vCTF's thats like 1 vehicle map for every 3-4 non vehicle ones. With those approximate numbers do you think 2-4 maps is enough to support its own gametype?

[Roulette]

it's still easy..

activate the filter:


You assume there is a filter for vCTF on/off. So far, we have no indication of that, AFAIK. Once again, a filter is a decent idea, but only if the SERVER says that it mixes maps. Joining a vCTF server and having it switch to CTF is the problem, and can not be avoided with simple map filters. It has to be filtered on the maplist. As I said earlier, it should be a simple server flag to set.



If this could be combined to almost double the community, let alone adding the fresh blood. I just really dont see what the big deal is.....

If I'm reading that right, that's a big leap. It MAY double the community with people that want more variety on the same server. Optimistic again. It's an unknown quantity of people who like CTF and vCTF but at this point refuse to play either because they're not together? That's the only way the move could bring in new faces. Of course, that's offset by people like me and others that won't play a mixed game type.

Or are you saying that throwing all the former players together and telling them to suck it up is doubling the community? Perhaps, but as demonstrated in this thread, a lot of people are thrilled with that idea. My conversations on the topic so far have had a overwhelming lean toward separating the game types by players from both sides. That includes normal players, clanners, server admins and a few league officials. Depending on the level of "annoyed" they are, that could backfire on the joint grouping idea.

I don't see the percentage of maps being the issue either. Even if I only have to switch to a game types every 5th map, it's still going to drive me off the server. Or worse, cause me to play through 4 maps I don't want just to get to the one I DO want.

I think Epic should make enough maps to make vCTF a viable game type on it's on. Call it 6-8 maps vCTF and 10-12 CTF. Remove it from the CTF browser and accept that it's not the same. Of course, may the lack of maps is the reason they're doing this. Unable to devote the resources to give the game type the attention it deserves.

[MonsOlympus]

Well yeah Im hoping some of my optimisim will rub off and counter some of the annoyed people. Im trying to be objective but it is difficult, Im sorry to I thought you were a CTF not vCTF mainly player please dont take that as an insult lolz ;)

Nah its good to see some people are actually more chill about this whole thing and not resorting to threats. Im not saying the community will double but one can only hope as I find less and less 2k4 servers these days and looking at the survey someone posted on one of the other threads its at the bottom of the list in player counts. That could be because not all servers are advertised as well, again thats an issue for admins and clanners to sort out.

I can understand being annoyed and my first reaction was one of disbelief but I hardly jumped the gun. How many people do you think will stop playing really because of this? I cant believe people would give up on ut that easy then add the amount of new people it could draw from other games that might like vehicles.

Indeed if vCTF takes off enough it could easily become a seperate gametype but people seem to think that vehicles modify the gameplay so drastically it calls for this. To me the amount of themes and size of maps has just as much to do with tactics and strategy than vehicles and if a map is designed with these in mind then ofcoarse its a vehicle only map in a sense. Then I could say whats the big difference between this and ONS, Im sure you've got alot more answers to that one than between CTF and vCTF.

I for one am hoping that all the gametypes are getting the attention they deserve not just one or the other, dont mistake this merger as a way to cheat people though. Well not yet, how many of these annoyed people have played 2k7? Id say thats close to nil, if they saw it in action they might change there minds. I havent seen it but I have seen enough of 2k7 and heard enough from epic to give them the benifit of the doubt.

Im really hoping that the 2k7 community wont mimic the 2k4 one and that people will play more of a variety because of the amount of dedication and forethought put into this sequel. Epic no doubt gave us this info to see what the overall reaction would be and I think most of the responses failed big time. Theres always the initial shock but alot of people are only seeing the bad points thats one of the reasons Ive been trying to come up with as many I can for this and if you look at it I think it could be even. Why not give it a try first, I really dont see this fragementing the community any more than it is. Which alot of people proved here by there comments, for me this is the biggest reason to do it not everyone knows what they want especially from a game they have yet to play. In my experience its best to leave decisions like this to game designers not players, no offense guys but for designers its easier to see things from more than one angle.

Edit: and looking at the 2k4 code the vCTF gametype is 44 lines, difference being the trans, vehicles and the prefix. Thats it unless you count load hints!

[Xyx]

Capture The Flag
[ ] Show servers with vehicles.
[Yes] Show servers with translocator.
[No] Show instagib* servers. Good point. It occurred to me after posting.


did you guys bother to notice than in doing that you've just added 3x more servers from no where.. How's that? It's just filtering. It doesn't change what servers are there, merely filters out those you're not interested in. I imagine that if you'd look for this...

Capture The Flag
[No] Servers with vehicles.
[No] Servers with translocator.
[No] Instagib servers.

...that you wouldn't find a whole lot of servers. Unless Epic actually includes a normal weapons map that is played without vehicles or translocator. Would be cool if they did, but since the series doesn't exactly have a history in that I guesstimate the odds are pretty bad.


By seperating them and being for that then you are essentially saying that you want nothing to do with the people who play CTF with vehicles or without, depending on your fav. I don't think you can stop this. People will gravitate towards the servers they like best. They'll then add those servers to their favorites and stick to those. Might as well help them find those servers right away, instead of forcing them to try dozens of servers they don't want to remain with.

I think the hardcore classic CTF crowd would not come over to other CTF types anyway. That is where Epic's message would fall on deaf ears anyway. However, people new to the game might not mind all the differences and not bother to filter the list as much. I think it is them that Epic's message is meant for.


If they're blended, as Epic says, and there is no easy way to filter them out, I know exactly what I'll do. Spend about 2 weeks looking for servers running one type or the other. Settle down and play on those. My point. And even though I myself appreciate variety, I don't think you should feel like you're having game styles shoved down your throat.

Especially not when there's an easy way out anyway. ;)

[MonsOlympus]

I think I said right after that it might be the same 1x but split 0.3333% if you read the whole post...

Dont forget thats split is just over the people playing CTF and variants so you might be lucky to find an 8on8 server lolz :p

[BadAss84]

I 100% agree with unreal grrl, selerox and twd's posts here.

I know for one that the ctf community i play in would NOT be pleased with this change at all, im not saying there is anything wrong with vehicles but there is a large community of people that still prefer non vehicle based gametypes and want to play only those. The same can be said for vctf players who aren't interested in playing ctf. These people want to play their own gametype and not have to worry about finding a new server every map rotation because the server changed to a different gametype (yes it might just be a new map within the ctf gametype, but as unreal grrl said, they ARE very seperate gametypes).

Thank you for responding WarTourist, but you need to be able to see that this is a concern for standard ctf lovers, we only want to put that across and hope that you will see it from our POV.

Also, one of the things epic seem to be focusing on for 2k7 is mixing the best of 2k4 and ut99, and getting those people still playing ut99 into 2k7, now do you think ut99 ctf players are going to welcome this change? I for one do not. IMO they would probably see it as nothing more than vehicles taking over standard ctf and just stay with ut99 ctf again, why would they move to 2k7 when they can play ctf hassle free in ut99?

Sure some people will say just let them do that, but don't we want to attract as many people as possible to the game? We don't want to scare away potential players before they have even started.

[MonsOlympus]

Ok Im gonna keep this as short as I can because I dont want to come across like Im gonna hound anyone who makes a comment against this decision. I just found this response above of particular interest.

Why didnt these ut99 players move to 2k4? and lastly what do you think would make ut2k7 different from 2k4 or ut99? and no the answer doesnt have to be vehicles either. Im interested forsure ;)

[UnrealGrrl]

the answer is quick n easy. UT2kx gameplay radically changed from UT99. theres ALOT of players that tried the game and didnt like it and STAYED with UT99... especially CTF players.
one of the hopes with UT2007 is that the stated move to go back to a more UT99ish in your face 'feel' would bring alot of these players back to the game and its a legitimate hope.

BUT - by putting vehicles in CTF, youre pretty much telling those UT99 players (of which there are almost as many as play ut2004 now) to get lost and keep playing UT99.


Well yeah Im hoping some of my optimisim will rub off and counter some of the annoyed people. Im trying to be objective but it is difficult,

Mons, re: your above msg, i know youre trying to be optimistic and insert some positive spin on this issue, and anyone thats been around Unreal awhile will tell ya that theres no one thats more pro-Epic and positive on almost anything Unreal than me. but if you or anyone else (and most importantly Epic) really read the messages above and really take time to see what players concerns are, you'll realize this isnt about overreacting or being opposed to change or just not liking a gametype. Most of the issues with this change are out of concern for the future of the (CTF) game. Theres a large segment of the players out there who play CTF, Standard, vCTF, iCTF and they are distinctly different games, with different player bases.

Maybe its all in the presentation. But unless they are setup as different gametypes from the start I can only see it mucking things up... because as soon as you start having to force dropdown menus to make submenu selections of gametypes, the battle is already lost.

[MonsOlympus]

Thanks for the feedback, Im glad my posts are making some kind of impact even if the message does seem alittle wrong to some people. Thats your best post yet btw, epic should definatly take note ;)

I myself fully agree that this discussion is about the future of the gametype which is why Ive tried to stay objective. I can understand a few rash comments especially with the news hitting, I even made some myself. It is easy to jump the gun alittle on this topic.

Well ontopic, perhaps we could get a full proper list of pro's and con's going to see how well it levels from what we know atm. Ive been putting alot of thought into this topic because it affects us all, we all play some form of CTF at one time or another, the fact of the matter is do we care enough about the game to see it done right.

Now this analogy might not be the best but Ive been considering TDM and DM (DM being my primary gametype) and why they would not be merged into one and trying to see similarities between teams vs vehicles in tactics and strategy. You cant really take the trans or weapon loadout into consideration because of all the new stuff in 2k7 and the fact vehicles might provide balance when the trans is removed.

Then there is a maps balance with or without vehicles or teams, Ive actually found that DM maps arnt always the best for TDM but yet there a big variety of maps which will play well for DM (even CTF maps would be half playable in some instances). Now with that said maps don't, in my eyes, always have to be gametype dependant in respect to certain modes of play, ofcoarse there is a fine fine line here.


Maybe its all in the presentation. But unless they are setup as different gametypes from the start I can only see it mucking things up... because as soon as you start having to force dropdown menus to make submenu selections of gametypes, the battle is already lost.

Now this is a decent point but its difficult to get the balance here because if you go too far one way or the other things are gonna topple. There is already a dropdown for vCTF, CTF and iCTF in ut2004 but I dont really see this as the answer. Ofcoarse it semi works but its hardly an ideal situation for people who dont know what iCTF is, I would say this mutator would be fine as a filter.

Now to vCTF! This is alittle more drastic because of the map issue either by design or scale, the maps support vehicles, the gameplay how ever mimics CTF very closely but the addition of vehicles affects the strategy and/or tactics that a team might use. Then again if you look at TDM vs DM like before a CTF map might not play well as a vehicle map or visa versa, so that leaves out the option of it being a mutator really.

The only options I can see, would be to either use an improved interface or not to and use the less than ideal interface style of 2k4. If we are basing conclusions on 2k4's then our experiences might be alittle jaded but if the interface indeed is improved by a decent factor then perhaps either option (of merging and filtering, or seperate gametypes) would be more than agreeable.

Edit:
Id just like to see a few servers running both without them all going to either one or the other. If that means a gametype switch so be it, Id love to see random mutator lists on servers as well. Something to consider would be a CTF map going crazy so then the next map is a 1on1 by clan leaders (blood rites style) or even to win the match. Like a shoot out in soccer, perhaps a series of 1on1's and the team with the most frags wins. Like changing a CTF to a TDM and visa versa. Im not for one little merger but Im for a campaign of online gaming instead of a more linear view of gametypes and gameplay. This is really a topic for another thread ;)

[Xyx]

Several people here seem to advocate a community-oriented definition of gametypes: "if it has a strong community, it should be a separate gametype". That would render the server browser like this:

Classic CTF
Vehicle CTF
Instagib CTF
Team Deathmatch
Onslaught

Then you add in some other fundamental gametypes that have no community (yet):

Deathmatch
Warfare

But then, I ask you, where do these go?

Vehicle Deathmatch
Vehicle Team Deathmatch
Instagib Deathmatch
Instagib Team Deathmatch

Epic clearly wishes to move away from the page-long gametype list. That is why Bombing Run (and therefore iBR), Assault and Invasion are being scrapped (and Mutant, if anyone cares). What use is dropping three major gametypes to shorten the gametype list only to add in even more gametypes?

I believe Epic is on a mission here. They believe the community is splintered, and judging from the remarks in this thread, rightly so. This person will only play classic CTF, that person only vCTF and Bob threatens to leave if there is no separate iCTF. That sounds pretty splintered to me.

We could debate all century about whether having a splintered community is bad, but personally I'd rather give Epic the benefit of the doubt and wait and see.

[Selerox]

I believe Epic is on a mission here. They believe the community is splintered, and judging from the remarks in this thread, rightly so. This person will only play classic CTF, that person only vCTF and Bob threatens to leave if there is no separate iCTF. That sounds pretty splintered to me.

Right, and forcing people to play gametypes they don't like is going to help this how exactly?

I'd have thought the first thing Epic should be doing is not angering their existing fanbase, which is exactly what happened with UT2003. This move is garunteed to anger people, and, as you can see from this thread, already has angered people.

The arguments for combining are far outweighed by the arguments against. This concept will screw up the community. This concept will not help the community in any real way.

[Scylla]

Epic clearly wishes to move away from the page-long gametype list. That is why Bombing Run (and therefore iBR), Assault and Invasion are being scrapped (and Mutant, if anyone cares). What use is dropping three major gametypes to shorten the gametype list only to add in even more gametypes?

If they don't want to have long lists of gametypes, why add more?

Further more, why would they almost force people to play different gametypes?

DM and CTF will end up like assault did in UT2004. It had a split community within the same gametype!

[Zynith]

Right, and forcing people to play gametypes they don't like is going to help this how exactly?

Since when is anyone bieng forced? Just quit the damn server if you don't like the maplist...

*edit* ignore my stupid comment...

[fuegerstef]

Since when is anyone bieng forced? Just quit the damn server if you don't like the maplist...

Which CAN be annoying after some time trying to find a pub for your evening game with/without vehicles. :)

[os][ris]

I can't believe 16 pages have been devoted to arguing over an OPTIONAL feature. A lot of you are insanely ungrateful.

[Xyx]

Right, and forcing people to play gametypes they don't like is going to help this how exactly?
That has been mentioned many times already. To quote some random commercial: The mind is like a parachute; it won't work unless it's open.


I'd have thought the first thing Epic should be doing is not angering their existing fanbase
Impossible. The fanbase is so splintered that doing or not doing any given thing would anger one or more splinters. I think the collective UT community is so messed up that it's no longer viable. Even if you throw UT99, UT2003 and UT2004 together, that's still a pretty small corner of the market.

If the series is to survive as a mainstream game, even become the next big thing, you can't make it with just the current community and the odd newbie checking out the game. Massive amounts of new blood are needed, more than anything. That requires streamlining, sacrifice and taking really tough decisions. Can't bake an omelet without breaking eggs and all that.

Suck it up for the good of the series. We should be concerned about "UT vs BF", not "classic CTF vs vehicle CTF".

[os][ris]

Lol after reading more of the thread i cannot believe how much this is being blown out of proportion. Some of you are acting as if the sun is not going to come up tomorrow because you wont be able to distinguish CTF from vCTF in your stupid server browser. People are referencing it like it's two separate game types when it's not. It's all CTF just some maps have vehicles. Really what the fcuk is the big deal? Are you going to kill yourself if you jump into a server and you happen to see a vehicle in front of you?

Not to mention that if there happens to be a sever that only has CTF maps with vehicles in the rotation it will probably be named "***Super duper 1337 VCTF Server***" and you will obviously know whether or not you would like to entertain yourself on said server. And if i'm not mistaken most people find 5 or 6 favorite servers and constantly play on those. You will most likely find some server admin who thinks just like you and will refuse to put vCTF maps in their rotation, so that you and whoever else can enjoy the game without having to worry abouta hellbender running over you. Again. what is the big deal?

[Kharnellius]

[ris']Lol after reading more of the thread i cannot believe how much this is being blown out of proportion. Some of you are acting as if the sun is not going to come up tomorrow because you wont be able to distinguish CTF from vCTF in your stupid server browser. People are referencing it like it's two separate game types when it's not. It's all CTF just some maps have vehicles. Really what the fcuk is the big deal? Are you going to kill yourself if you jump into a server and you happen to see a vehicle in front of you?

Not to mention that if there happens to be a sever that only has CTF maps with vehicles in the rotation it will probably be named "***Super duper 1337 VCTF Server***" and you will obviously know whether or not you would like to entertain yourself on said server. And if i'm not mistaken most people find 5 or 6 favorite servers and constantly play on those. You will most likely find some server admin who thinks just like you and will refuse to put vCTF maps in their rotation, so that you and whoever else can enjoy the game without having to worry abouta hellbender running over you. Again. what is the big deal?
I was going to post something...but apparently you are telepathic.

os][ris wins the thread.

[BigJim]

I'm a ahrdcore vctfer, & I was horriedfied about hearing the news, but (and here is where I try to avoid looking like one of those death-row guys who talk to kids in schools in order to get out of the whole chair/zap thing), reeading Xyx' last post did it for me;


That has been mentioned many times already. To quote some random commercial: The mind is like a parachute; it won't work unless it's open.


Impossible. The fanbase is so splintered that doing or not doing any given thing would anger one or more splinters. I think the collective UT community is so messed up that it's no longer viable. Even if you throw UT99, UT2003 and UT2004 together, that's still a pretty small corner of the market.

If the series is to survive as a mainstream game, even become the next big thing, you can't make it with just the current community and the odd newbie checking out the game. Massive amounts of new blood are needed, more than anything. That requires streamlining, sacrifice and taking really tough decisions. Can't bake an omelet without breaking eggs and all that.

Suck it up for the good of the series. We should be concerned about "UT vs BF", not "classic CTF vs vehicle CTF".

Can't argue with any of that, not really when you think about it. :)

[Roulette]

[ris']I can't believe 16 pages have been devoted to arguing over an OPTIONAL feature. A lot of you are insanely ungrateful.

If it was an option, it wouldn't be an issue. The argument is over the fact it's NOT an option. It's mixed. As far as we know, there will be no option. Just the whim of server admins and their map lists. If nothing changes from the 2k4 browser, there will be no way to properly filter the servers out. Hence, players are forced to accept occasionally swapping game types when the server loads the next map.


The mind is like a parachute; it won't work unless it's open.

Open minded isn't the issue. Open minded would be a person decided to give vCTf a shot. The issue is that Epic is trying to shoehorn two games into one game type. People being shoehorned generally don't like it. Particularly when they are being forced to play maps they don't want, or leave and find a new server every time one is rotated in.

I don't know about you but I won't be sucking it up for the series. I did my time in 2k3, and frankly, I'm done sucking it up for bad design choices. That's what this is. Poor design by trying to push two round pegs into one square hole and pretend it fits.


[ris']People are referencing it like it's two separate game types when it's not. It's all CTF just some maps have vehicles. Really what the fcuk is the big deal?

Have you played them both? They're about as similar as DM and TDM. Sure, you just shoot people, just one with some teammates?

The dynamic, strategy, movement, and weapons are all different. Weapon load outs and usage changes to deal with greater threats from vehicles. Even the tactics are altered to adjust for the vehicles/x-loc switch. Vehicle spawn times dictate attack runs. Defensive positioning have to be radically altered to deal with high speed vehicle runs.

To casually lump them together is a pretty big leap. It would be easier to lump iCTF back in than vCTF. Quite frankly, people like what they like and that's why they play what they play. Throwing groups together and expecting them get along and love the other game type just because Epic tells them to seems unrealistic. Have you seen the vCTF v CTF threads? or even the IG v NW threads? Or just the x-loc discussions? People have very distinct ideas about what they enjoy in the game, particularly CTF. Those ideas are often mutually exclusive. I think this is one of those cases.

[Kharnellius]

Have you played them both? They're about as similar as DM and TDM. Sure, you just shoot people, just one with some teammates?
Have you?

Oh sh!t...no one has!
That's right all anyone has played has been a vCTF MOD! It was kind of neat but unpolished, boring, and frankly the maps kind of sucked (not made for proper gameplay at all).

So umm....how bout we wait and the pros have a shot before sh!ting a cinder block.

[os][ris]

If it was an option, it wouldn't be an issue. The argument is over the fact it's NOT an option. It's mixed. As far as we know, there will be no option. Just the whim of server admins and their map lists. If nothing changes from the 2k4 browser, there will be no way to properly filter the servers out. Hence, players are forced to accept occasionally swapping game types when the server loads the next map.

Changes game types between maps? That doesn't make sense. Your the one calling it two seperate game types when it's not. Too Epic it is ONE gametype, not two. The only reason you and everyone else are hanging on to this two gametype idea is because a mod was created in 2k4 and it was separate from CTF. However that does not mean it needs to have it's own gametype in 2k7. I do not remember such a big hoopla about Assault and Onslaught being rolled into Warfare. It's the same thing



Have you played them both? They're about as similar as DM and TDM. Sure, you just shoot people, just one with some teammates?

The dynamic, strategy, movement, and weapons are all different. Weapon load outs and usage changes to deal with greater threats from vehicles. Even the tactics are altered to adjust for the vehicles/x-loc switch. Vehicle spawn times dictate attack runs. Defensive positioning have to be radically altered to deal with high speed vehicle runs.

To casually lump them together is a pretty big leap. It would be easier to lump iCTF back in than vCTF. Quite frankly, people like what they like and that's why they play what they play. Throwing groups together and expecting them get along and love the other game type just because Epic tells them to seems unrealistic. Have you seen the vCTF v CTF threads? or even the IG v NW threads? Or just the x-loc discussions? People have very distinct ideas about what they enjoy in the game, particularly CTF. Those ideas are often mutually exclusive. I think this is one of those cases.


umm yea i've played whatever ghetto version of vctf is floating around the unreal universe and i was highly unimpressed. But i think making the assumption that EPIC'S vCTF and the MOD vCTF will play the same is flat out stupid to say the lease. You dont know what they have in store cause you haven't played it nor have you seen the maps. You do NOT know how vehicles will be implemented regardless of whatever MOD you have played. At least make your decision or opinion based off something you've actually seen or played.

I'm willing to bet any amount of money that vCTF will NOT play like how you think it will and this entire discussion will have been erased from everyones memory come release time.

[Roulette]

Polish is great. I look forward to a polished vCTF gametype. But no amount of polish changes the differences I listed. The games are played in a fundamentally different style. Some people like one or the other. Some like both. But most of the people I speak too accept that they are radically different. I can make that comparison for every single game that has CTF with vehicles mode and compare it directly to everyone that uses standard CTF. The styles are different.

I think it's even more true in UT. The CTF x-loc changes the game into something totally unique. vCTF removes that and replaces it will vehicles. Those that despise the TL can enjoy a more sedate fare of CTF. Fanboys of either style will be thus forced to put up with the other style. And if you're a vCTF fan, you're stuck playing through a larger selection of CTF maps just to get to the occasional vCTF map you want.

All of which can be resolved by either not mixing the two, or offering an effective filtering option to avoid servers that mesh them.

[Stoned Rhyno]

Vote now:

http://utforums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=552200

[drak0n]

But most of the people I speak too accept that they are radically different.In what ways are they radically different?

[os][ris]

Polish is great. I look forward to a polished vCTF gametype. But no amount of polish changes the differences I listed. The games are played in a fundamentally different style. Some people like one or the other. Some like both. But most of the people I speak too accept that they are radically different. I can make that comparison for every single game that has CTF with vehicles mode and compare it directly to everyone that uses standard CTF. The styles are different.

I think it's even more true in UT. The CTF x-loc changes the game into something totally unique. vCTF removes that and replaces it will vehicles. Those that despise the TL can enjoy a more sedate fare of CTF. Fanboys of either style will be thus forced to put up with the other style. And if you're a vCTF fan, you're stuck playing through a larger selection of CTF maps just to get to the occasional vCTF map you want.

All of which can be resolved by either not mixing the two, or offering an effective filtering option to avoid servers that mesh them.

Would you make the assumption that UT Assault and 2K4 assault are played the same or even feel the same? Well to most people the answer is no. What that shows you is that you CANNOT predict how a gametype is going to feel or play like in a completely different engine in a completely different game. Just because you've played some MOD with vehicles and flags does not mean it will feel the same in the future. But i digress.

[Roulette]

While I certainly have examined the vCTF mod we have in 2k4, it is by far not my only drawing point for information on the changes vehicles bring to a CTF game type.

I'm not going to sit here and list the dozens of major differences between the two styles (game independent I might add) let alone the nuances. I think it's obvious. I'm astounded that you don't to be honest. Can you honestly say that a game with a flying ship, a tank and a transport vessel plays the same as one where people are the only targets? Hell, even a single simple jeep throws game play into a different direction.

Do what you do man. If you think they're identical, more power to you. Enjoy. I don't. I don't enjoy swapping between them. Forcing me to put up with it will detract from my enjoyment of the game. I say that without NEEDING to wait for a final copy. People that hate vehicles don't EVER want to play them. They don't have to wait for 2k7's specific version of vehicle and balance to come out to know that. Equally, people that despise the boring walking from place to place don't care for non vehicular maps. And, as I said before, the TL fans will not gently put them down just because Epic (or you) thinks all CTF is the same.

[TWD]

Impossible. The fanbase is so splintered that doing or not doing any given thing would anger one or more splinters. I think the collective UT community is so messed up that it's no longer viable. Even if you throw UT99, UT2003 and UT2004 together, that's still a pretty small corner of the market.

Simply not true. I could almost garuntee you if the choice had been for them to be in seperate gametypes nobody would have been the wiser. There probably wouldn't have even been 1 thread made about it. Nobody would have cared because that's what was expected. I'd also bet that most of the people on the same gametype side are only there because that's the choice epic made.

[Xyx]

Such a choice is not made to please the fanboys, it's made to attract people that aren't already firmly set in their ways.

[iLL]

CTF and DM (STANDARD) was here first and should always be there as well as deathmatch.The game fundamentals should never change,even 10 years from now.

If Epic wants new gametypes with vehicles ( don't even gimme the vehicles are map based line,it's a different gametype anyway you slice it) then make them seperate gametypes or exclude VCTF and VDM altogether as they came into the picture last.

At least them make it a backburner item or after CTF and DM on the priority list the way it should be.

Why u ask?Well you vehicular players already have UW which will be enough to keep all of you busy and then some.If Epic is going back to their roots(as they say) they should lose vehicles altogether imo or make them in a totally different game to be released 2008.

Its the vehicles that have already costed the CTF and DM players another year onto the release date.If the game were comprised of DM and CTF it would have been on store shelves by now.

Adding salt to the wound,on top of the wait,we may have our gametypes ruined which tbh is not very grateful on Epics part.I am only buying this game for CTF and DM.I can get vehicular warfare on just about any other game out there.

I do not care how fun all gametypes are.They could blow or totally rock,but the only way I will judge this game is by CTF and DM.There must be standard CTF and DM with a equal number of quality maps as any other gametype otherwise Epics loyal followers will be highly disappointed and see they mean very little.

Let the demo show how much care about their fans and which ones.(loyal and faithful followers since day 1,Vehicular Players,or New Prospects)

[TWD]

Is there any way we can have a poll? I tried making my own thread about it but it got deleted (I'm guessing duplicate thread?) :( I'd really like to see what the numbers are.

[NeoPhoenixIIM]

I think os][ris has made the most rational counter arguments thus far. However, it doesn't really convince me that VCTF/VDM and CTF/DM should be combined together, it just makes me feel better about how balanced the vehicle maps will be over the UT2k4 ones.

The fact is, Epic could easily just keep EVERYONE happy (VCTF's, CTF's, DM's), by just keeping them all separate. Why force players from vehicle game types and players from none vehicle game types to endure game styles that they do not enjoy playing?

Just keep VCTF/VDM separate from CTF/DM and make everyone happy.

All combining them will do is piss off a lot of previous UT fans, and make people less likely to convert over from previous UT games and more likely not to buy UT2007. However if they are left separate, more players would port over from UT, UT2k3, and UT2k4, and the truly hardcore players of CTF, DM, and VCTF will be less likely to boycott UT2007 out of anger.

So as I see it, keeping the game types separate would mean a win win situation for Epic.

[MonsOlympus]

Lots of people are assuming alot here and going by personal preferences. Using a state of mind as a con against the idea just isnt relevant at all, as this is exactly opposite to the point and proves why they should do it in the first place. No not to alieniate the community or to slap the face of ut fans, that some people seem to think only the people against the idea are. It shows how little you respect the opinions of other people from other gametypes, reverting to saying we dont know what we are talking about or dont have the same love of ut that you do. We just share a difference in opinion.

I think my analogy for TDM/DM to vCTF/CTF was decent and I actually managed to do alittle semi-against bit, it also gave you plenty of oppertunty to use it as a starting point to start using "objective" points. As it stands I have not seen many relevant and on point against posts, alot of them come down to having to swap servers being a hastle (which can easily be countered by saying I will have to do the same if I want to play both) or that epic are going to loose fans because of it. Theres no way to gague that, look at the 2k4 community long and hard.

I mentioned tactics and strategys and gave ample oppertunity to use team vs vehicles as a base for yet another against. Yet people just say they dont have time to explain it all, like they dont care they'll just yell and yell until they get what they want. I wish that worked all the time but from what I can see ut2k7 is epics game the way they want to do it. Ofcoarse some people might have decent posts but they are really getting over shadowed here by all of the attitude directed at something so trivial.

I think this thread and the one on buf have made plenty of debate points on the pro side of things and there are not enough con posts, if people who are against this idea were more objective and not letting personal opinions getting in the way then perhaps your posts would be worth more. Like I said before this was a shock and everyone is bound to have initial reactions but how about actually thinking on the subject instead of worrying about how you feel about it. Ofcoarse Im not going to say anyone cant have an opinion but in a debate fact usually wins the day, since we cant play 2k7 its difficult but why not give it a go and tell people for this why they should change thier minds?

[Xyx]

it's a different gametype anyway you slice it I define gametypes by their objectives. You capture flags, so it's Capture The Flag. How then does adding vehicles change the gametype?



If Epic is going back to their roots(as they say) they should lose vehicles altogether UT2007 != UT99 with updated graphics. There is evolution in other areas.


we may have our gametypes ruined Ruined, as in you'll be completely unable to play classic CTF at all? In the way that Assault, Bombing Run, Domination, Double Domination, Invasion and Mutant are ruined?


I can get vehicular warfare on just about any other game out there. Ever wonder why?


Why force players from vehicle game types and players from none vehicle game types to endure game styles that they do not enjoy playing? Ever consider the advantages?

[iLL]

I define gametypes by their objectives. You capture flags, so it's Capture The Flag. How then does adding vehicles change the gametype?

Ruined, as in you'll be completely unable to play classic CTF at all? In the way that Assault, Bombing Run, Domination, Double Domination, Invasion and Mutant are ruined?
[/I]?


How about he obvious reason?Which is the only one I need.You can drive or fly the flag home.

If CTF and DM are dead,and VCTF and VDM is consistenly busy,then yeah thats ruined to me.I would not buy this game to play offline.

There are no advantages for combining the two,except for ONS players and Epic.The only ones who get hurt are CTFers.

I wonder if they will do this to DM.Hey you just kill in both of them right,so this must mean they are the same gametype.So what if one has vehicles and the other does not,still the same goal right?

NO!Its no different in CTF.Ridiculous.

[iLL]

Lots of people are assuming alot here and going by personal preferences.

It shows how little you respect the opinions of other people from other gametypes, reverting to saying we dont know what we are talking about or dont have the same love of ut that you do. We just share a difference in opinion.

if people who are against this idea were more objective and not letting personal opinions getting in the way then perhaps your posts would be worth more.

but how about actually thinking on the subject instead of worrying about how you feel about it.

Personal preferences are the difference between buying the game and not.
The thread also clearly shows imo vehicular players not understanding how important it is not to combine the gametypes and why.I think only players who have played all of the UT series and or die hard DM and CTF'ers understand this.

Who are you to weigh ones post?Are you one of the above mentioned types of player.An ole skooler die hard veteran that started in 99 on and likes CTF and DM to this day.Because if you're not,then maybe you do not what you are talking about.If you are,then I apologize.I see you have been converted.

I do not need to think on the subject anymore.I have been since I heard of this many months ago and now this thread has confirmed it.Yeah I'm a little saddened over it.This is the first time I have even remotely thought of not buying the game that I was so eager to get my hands on and all over vehicles.Just plain bs man.Thats my opinion and my preferences.

Nothing against you ONS VCTF junkies.

[MonsOlympus]

Yeah thats fair enough and your choice ofcoarse, but do you really think something like this either way is going to stop you having a great time playing?

See personal preference doesnt always play a major role in design descisions and thats why I mentioned that its best left to designers and not players. I myself am both and Im sure epic are both, so they can look at it from either point of view with either the objective or subjective opinions and weigh it all up to see who benifits. Also they must have considered this kind of reaction, it seems not to be coming from one direction but both which probably was also considered.

Im a diehard fan of all classic gamemodes including fortress style, I just dont believe vehicles make the impact on the actual gametype but infact gameplay which happen to be different things. If this choice is there to benifit gameplay then I dont see the problem, there will be people coming from all three camps on this one Im sure. It just seems more of an interface problem, looking at it objectively, than anything else.

Gameplay does indeed have links to personal preference and Im all for being able to play what you want when you want, I just think its alittle early to jump the gun. Ive had to take hits before in my favourite gametypes (utcomp being one of them) I prefer to play without it so I kinda got screwed there. Ofcoarse it doesnt stop me playing on those servers as I said about the trans ctf. I dont see why you guys cant take a small hit for the greater good of the community. If it indeed causes many issues I'll be the first to swap sides and come to your defence. As it stands I havent see enough evidence that supports this other than peoples opinions which might matter but when has anyone ever taken mine into consideration. I dont remember anything about utcomp or noadrenaline servers on the ut2004 box!

[Xyx]

I wonder if they will do this to DM.Hey you just kill in both of them right,so this must mean they are the same gametype.So what if one has vehicles and the other does not,still the same goal right?
Perhaps we are merely arguing semantics. What, then, is your definition of "gametype"?

To me, a gametype is a set of rules describing the game objectives. In CTF, the objective is getting both flags in your base. The ways in which you can accomplish this and/or the means you have at your disposal do not change this objective.


Who are you to weigh ones post?Are you one of the above mentioned types of player.An ole skooler die hard veteran that started in 99 on and likes CTF and DM to this day.Because if you're not,then maybe you do not what you are talking about.
Ah, the "holier than thou" elitist stance. Let's reverse that argument: fanboys cannot be considered objective.

For the record, I have been with the series from the start. I just don't see why that would make my opinion worth either more or less.

[Cleary]

Im a CTF player, and Its one of my main Game types... I ran a squad for TLSC's UT devision.

Imagine Facing worlds with raptors, How fun would that be? Very!

Im all for moving forward, I know what your concerns are, but its nothing to be concerned about... you just like everyone else will just have to adapt to it.

With new weapons, it could be easyer to kill people on them hovering skate board things.

-Cleary-

ps. I played ut99 (not that its relivant)

[XTREEM|RAGE]

I hope there wont be vehicles in standard ctf

[Xyx]

Depends on what you consider "standard CTF" in UT2007. ;)

[Kharnellius]

Mons could have quite simply posted two perfect posts IN A ROW!!! :tup:

I have played Unreal1 all the way through multiple times and played its botmatch a ton. I have played Unreal Tournament more than I'd like to admit. I played UT2003 demo but never bought the game. I played the UT2004 demo and bought the full game and have played that a ton also. I played the Unreal2 demo but never bought the game.

On UT I played Tactical Ops, Defense Alliance, Excessive Overkill, ChaosUT, and Unreal4ever a ton (just to name a few of the mods).

In 2k4 I played Defense Alliance 2 (and beta tested DA2), UnWheel, Hollow Moon, and Troopers.

I hope this qualifies me as somewhat of a veteran to the UT series and hopefully this means I know what I am talking about (friends would say otherwise :p).

.
.
.

I fail to see how this will hurt anything. I like this idea (of mixing the two) because it will introduce people to vCTF in sort of a surprising manner. If they do it right hopefully they will get people hooked and say, "Dang! I never thought it would be this awesome! I'm glad I stumbled upon this ctf map with vehicles! Rock on!".

If they don't like it then they just won't use the map anymore. Pretty simple really.



For the record, I have been with the series from the start. I just don't see why that would make my opinion worth either more or less.

[Cleary]

I recon its going to be one of the best games I've ever played... otherwise I would'nt be buying it.

[Kharnellius]

I recon its going to be one of the best games I've ever played... otherwise I would'nt be buying it.
I recon I completely agree with you. woot.

[os][ris]

Just to add fuel to the fire. If Epic were to make this it's own gametype they would need enough maps to support it. My guess is that currently they have somewhere between 20-25 ctf maps with maybe (random guess) 5-10 of them containing vehicles.

Now if they were to make it it's own standalone gametype they would have to spend the time to create 15-20 more maps, which would add, what, 6-7 months of dev time? Not worth it imo. Not to mention the extra b.s. gimmick features they would have to add to make sure vctf and ctf are vastly different to the GENERAL public (NOT FANBOYS LIKE US) because no matter how you slice it vctf and ctf are essentially the same thing, capture the other teams flag. Who the hell cares how you get it or get from A to B. That doesn't change the objective.

You cannot compare this to TDM and DM. Between with those two DIFFERENT gametypes the team structure and objective is COMPLETELY different. The objective has changed from killing everyone to only killing members of the opposite team. Two different objectives hence two different types. The community is already divided enough, to me adding vctf will only create more confusion. Once noobs see vctf they'll think "Where is my VDM and VTDM" :| and at that point you have whats called chaos. Cause some idiot will think to make a poorly executed mod with horrible maps which will create fanboys for each of those individual pieces of crap.

Most people for vctf as it's own type are basing their opinion on "feeling" rather then fact or even reality. This discussion is more suited for post-demo release. On TOP of all that everyon already knows there will be another (unfortunately) attempt to create a vctf mod and it will be classified as it's own type. So everyone who is a vctf head will be able to sleep at night knowing they can willfully filter vctf servers in their precious server browser cause, you know, god forbid you find yourself in a ctf server and the next map have a vehicle. Oh the humanity.

[Up&Over]

My guess is that currently they have somewhere between 20-25 ctf maps with maybe (random guess) 5-10 of them containing vehicles. Lol your be lucky, more like 10 to 15 CTF/VCTF maps. They have already said there want be as many as UT2004.

[os][ris]

Lol your be lucky, more like 10 to 15 CTF/VCTF maps. They have already said there want be as many as UT2004.

It's ok if my guess was off.. My general point is that if there are 20 ctf maps then half or less then half of them will have vehicles. If they make it it's own type they will have to double that amount, which adds to dev time.

[Kharnellius]

Yeah there will probably only be around 10-15 (at most) ctf maps with probably only 4-6 of them being vctf. This just further supports your point.

To be honest...combining DM and TDM together wouldn't bother me either. It'd be nice to be playing DM and suddenly be thrown into a team a match later and play TDM. In my opinion I dont think they are all that different either.

[Flak]

Well that's about enough of this.

Closed.