Before you can create any successful map you need to be a player first!

[Brad]

I created two of the most popular maps for one of my favorite gametypes. How? I was a great player. I knew what people liked, therefor gave them what they wanted. I knew what I wanted, and created it. The problem with most map authors is that they suck at the game and dont know what the players actually want! They're just designers! However if you're a great player and a great designer, you've got a great map. ;)

[The_Deacon]

Well, I really think that ther's a large variety of mappers, and they each have a different balance of:

1) Visual Design (pretty maps, incorporates novel ideas)
2) Foundation Design (playable maps)
3) Technical Skill (mapping in the 'correct way', sensible use of features, good optimisation, leaving no loose ends)
4) Game Skill (playing the game, partly map testing skill)
5) Aptitude for Learning (absorbing new topics, using feedback (from other people's testing) constructively

It is fairly rare to have someone who is highly skilled in all areas, as the law of averages would dictate.

[Modulus]

Well at least we know how you feel about yourself... You're GREAT! :P

But yeah, I totally agree with you... I look at some of these maps and I wonder why there is so much attention to the look of the map but almost no thought put into the feel.

I think that an integral part of any FPS game creation should include allowing some decent UT players a chance to play and train the level designers before they're given the opportunity to launch the level editor. They should be required to watch decent players play, note thier movement and incorporate those findings into thier level designs.

EDIT: typo

[Brad]

Agreed as well.

If the map author isn't good at the game he/she should stick with a good player like glue through every phase of the development process.

[elmuerte]

wow... didn't think there was enough room on this forum for another ego that large.

[BigJim]

Which maps?

[DeathBooger]

Which maps?

DM-1on1-Serpentine and AS-ScorpionRace_v45

[fuegerstef]

I created two of the most popular maps for one of my favorite gametypes.

So you are the one that made DM-Substracted-Cube-1337-SE-ClanEdition105 for the QuadDamage-InstaJump-1337Gamespeed-NoAirCOntrol-Racemaps-AdrenalineStay-WeaponsOffArena-ZirkZarkZork community?

Nice to finally meet you, Brad.

[Fury.T32]

DM-1on1-Serpentine and AS-ScorpionRace_v45

i thaught you said youd made good maps...

im sorry but these are not great, no offense to you or your (seemingly big) ego, but i didnt enjoy these maps, not even a little bit.

[»madMar†y»]

I created two of the most popular maps Torlan is also one of the most popular maps:rolleyes:

[Jrubzjeknf]

Serpentine: the only map I truely hate when it comes to DM and alike..

[ShredPrince]

You guys are easily knoted up by some confidence are'nt you?

[Hamburger]

I created two of the most popular maps for one of my favorite gametypes. How? I was a great player. I knew what people liked, therefor gave them what they wanted. I knew what I wanted, and created it. The problem with most map authors is that they suck at the game and dont know what the players actually want! They're just designers! However if you're a great player and a great designer, you've got a great map. ;)Different authors make maps in different ways because they play differently from each other. Its also an art you cant just make a map full of flow and loads of game play added to it. It takes time to learn how to craft such things into a map just like it does detail.

[sure]

Serpentine sux.

And AS-ScorpionRace_v45? wtf is that?

[The5thviruz]

I can't wait for this guy to become pro with the hoverboard so we can get some *****in' board racing maps!

[Luv_Studd]

I created two of the most popular maps for one of my favorite gametypes. How? I was a great player. I knew what people liked, therefor gave them what they wanted. I knew what I wanted, and created it. The problem with most map authors is that they suck at the game and dont know what the players actually want! They're just designers! However if you're a great player and a great designer, you've got a great map. ;)

Which two maps did you make, because this is the first I've heard of you...:rolleyes:

[Brad]

Yeah, I'm not well known. I made a few RA maps for UT99 and thats about it. But they are ALWAYS voted regularly and have the highest playcounts.

Why? Because they're FUN. Not because they have amazing graphics, although they do look professional. ;)

I'm not trying to come off as gods gift to UT. :rolleyes:

I'm just pointing out something that I've noticed as a player/mapper in the unreal community. I may be right, I may be wrong. Just my opinion. :cool:

[fuegerstef]

Now for something completely different:
Did some fellows really fell for DM-1on1-Serpentine??? I mean, it was Lee Perry from Digital Extremes who created that map.

[Sero]

Hmm, though the initial post comes across as somewhat arrogant, there is definately truth in there.

Imo it's a good thing that there's a large variety of maps made by mappers that don't all think alike, but there's for every game(type) a number of factors that determine whether or not the map is liked by the majority of people, the trick would be to identify these factors, and obviously this would be easier to do for someone who mastered that game(type).

[Jake-SF]

I created two of the most popular maps for one of my favorite gametypes. How? I was a great player. I knew what people liked, therefor gave them what they wanted. I knew what I wanted, and created it. The problem with most map authors is that they suck at the game and dont know what the players actually want! They're just designers! However if you're a great player and a great designer, you've got a great map. ;)
That they suck at the game I really don't care. Neither should I care about you who supposely created "two of the most popular map", yeah im not saying this isn't true, but you don't even give their name! No proof! I could say "hey! I am *insert the author of the map* the creator of Rankin! I am the roxxor and I know how to make map! Other bad mapper suck at the game"!

Oh common, first saying that they suck is hard and you say it is true for most of them. Where you took that? Oh, maybe your uber good at the game and you know everyone's likes and dislikes and all, so you think bad map = author suck at the game...

What you say is a bit true yes, if you know nothing at the game and make a map its most likely to be boring and all. But there are a lot of other reasons, including PERSONAL preferences, not everyone likes to make map exactly like the community want them, but how they like it. They want to enjoy their work themselves. Other may simply like a style of a different part of the community.


So yeah, if you know the game you may do a better job, but there are way more factor to be considered, and the "you suck" at the game doesn't make them all.

[Ward]

So you are the one that made DM-Substracted-Cube-1337-SE-ClanEdition105 for the QuadDamage-InstaJump-1337Gamespeed-NoAirCOntrol-Racemaps-AdrenalineStay-WeaponsOffArena-ZirkZarkZork community?

Nice to finally meet you, Brad.LMAO. Best post ever.

(No offense to Brad intended)

[iLL]

wow... didn't think there was enough room on this forum for another ego that large.

Heard that.Isn't it all opinion based anyway?Was there a poll to vote on such maps that I was not aware of?Are you going by how many servers are running your map,what 1 website posted,what all of your friends say,or are you a finalist in some mapping competition?;)

I agree that more times than not an "experienced"(not great)player does know what players want and therefore if has the fundamentals of UED down will probably put out a good or even great map.

On the flip side,that person not may know jack about the artistic balance of a map.Imo I like maps to visually pleasing as well.Its a combo of the following:map layout,feel and gameplay,weapon and powerup placement,the right sound and lighting effects which create atmosphere,and the appropriate textures,and the way its optimized(pathing,anti-portals,zoning,amount of meshes,etc)that all come together to make it a great map.

Also you do not need to UED mastered or to be great player to create a great map.
Take Woot for instance.Not exactly a ladder map,but is it fun?Hell yeah.Can a noob map maker make it?Of course.How long did it take?About an hour or two.

No meshes,no lighting effects,no projecters,movers,lifts,etc.Basically a skybox with 2 boxes,3 platforms,and 10 jumps.Plays smooth for everyone and who doesn't love mid air action?

I may prefer this map over your 6 month masterpiece.Its all opinion.

[elmuerte]

A map can change now a gametype is being played. Just because you traditional style doesn't work in a new map doesn't make it a bad map. A gametype is nothing more than a set of rules, how these rules eventually are applied can depend a lot on the map.
You don't have to be a good player to create a good map for a gametype. All you need to know is what the rules of the gametype are.

Take for example the following layout for a CTF map:
The map is basically a 2 story level where each team was it's own floor. The common ground\ceiling is made of glass so you can see your oponents moving around. The actual wall layout of the different floors is up to your imagination, but a maze-like layout would be interesting. To can go from one floor to the other through a couple of common stairs.
This map layout will break a lot of the common tactics of a CTF gam because the enemy team can always see what you're up to. In other words, you need to use different tactics. Would this map suck? maybe for some, others might like it (personal preference).

[p2xelgen]

Brad LoL :D

I Ant the best player in the world, But I feel I have the ability to sit down and create a sick map. It’s not down to ones ability in battle that determines how gooder mapper he/she will be. In my case it’s all about time. If you had to the choice between a night in with UnrealED or a Session-BarHopping witch would you choose? ;)

[BigJim]

Yeah, I'm not well known.

NP there, tbh I never really pay attenton to the mapper's name when I play a map, and tbh I rarely look even when I open it in the Ed. :)
No-ones' ever gonna get famous making maps, & tbh I can only think of 5 or 6 mapper's names off the top of my head, and a third of those are mentioned in this post.


I'm just pointing out something that I've noticed as a player/mapper in the unreal community. I may be right, I may be wrong. Just my opinion. :cool:

This is true to an extent, yeah.
An experienced player will have a very good idea of what his gametype demands of a map, tis' true, however, it's by no means a sure thing that a good player can make a good map.

Conversely, it's by no means a sure thing that an inexperienced player (to a certain gametype) can't make a good map - many general FPG-game rules carry over across multiple gametypes.

F'rexample, I'd be willing to bet hourences and angel have never touched vctf, but I'd trust one of their efforts over that of some random guy any day, even if that random guy is a far better player than me.

Just to add in another PoV, the "common wisdom" is sometimes just plain wrong too.
If you check out just about any public vctf server (again, for example, and excluding such rare notables as Titan, ApA & Jimmys), it's the cramped, ugly, badly built, poorly optimsed & spammy maps that get voted in time after time, yet if you ask vctf players individually, they'll mostly say that they don't like those maps, and prefer the onles where the mapper has taken the time & effort to produce a good end product.. wtf!?

The success of a map, and the popularity of it is no kind of way to judge it's quality, and all too often mappes forget that & get disheartened.
That's a Bad-Thing(tm) imo, and we should all do our best to raise the quality of maps out there.
(just like the BackAlley boys and freinds should do thier best to raise the quality of pop music, & directors should do thier best to raise th quality of sitty hollywood films, etc..)

[p2xelgen]

Put it this way if I went 1on1 with Cliffy I would win hands down. Who's the better mapper out of the two of us ???, hell man thats cliffy but he ant the better player. :D

[drak0n]

Put it this way if I went 1on1 with Cliffy I would win hands down.You don't know that for sure ;)

[Hamburger]

Put it this way if I went 1on1 with Cliffy I would win hands down. Who's the better mapper out of the two of us ???, hell man thats cliffy but he ant the better player. :DCliffyB has as much mapping ability as a fish out of water. :D

[-=¤willhaven¤=-]

When I was at my best game, I think I made my worst maps (most of my community work). Making good maps doesn't mean you have to be a good player. You just have to understand what gameplay concepts can be used to make a level fun.

[Hamburger]

When I was at my best game, I think I made my worst maps (most of my community work). Making good maps doesn't mean you have to be a good player. You just have to understand what gameplay concepts can be used to make a level fun.Haha he’s one of the best level designers Epic has. Put that in your pipe and smoke it brad. ;)

[MonsOlympus]

Originally Posted by brad
I created two of the most popular maps for one of my favorite gametypes. How? I was a great player. I knew what people liked, therefor gave them what they wanted. I knew what I wanted, and created it. The problem with most map authors is that they suck at the game and dont know what the players actually want! They're just designers! However if you're a great player and a great designer, you've got a great map.

This is pure ego man, have you even played any of the great custom maps for 2k4. Im not sure what the skill level of the people that built them are but they sure didnt do it single handed without any outside opinions what so ever. Im sure they consulted many players with different ranges of skill levels and other mappers who would have provided feedback.

As other have said being a good player might get you a decent map but in my experience the best feedback comes from other mappers or people who dont consider themselves the be all end all. Its a multi pronged process covering aspects of art, design and gameplay. Im scared to think what a pro player would make for a map, probably a pit here a dodge ramp there, we got a little rankin happening so lets umm add 2 shocks and 3 lightning guns. Then we end up with pro-subtractedcube-w/pits-alittlelikeothermaps-w/noimagination.ut2!

I can easily see that a mapper thats not a good player can make a decent map with enough feedback from the community. I would really think a decent enough player wouldnt have time to map and if they did Im sure the map would be over tested because they prefer to play rather than make maps. Otherwise how did they find the time in there busy mapping life to become such a good player? Im sure Unrealed gives them plenty of time to practise aim etc.

Now Im not saying you cant be a great mapper/player but you really got to wiegh it up. I know plenty of mappers who could suggest better weapon placements than pro players. This isnt because pro's dont have skills its because mappers have lent themselves to learning about processes involved in making maps instead of becoming 1337 fR34k players/

[BigJim]

Stands to reason - if you're spending all day practicing your aim and pwning noobs then you aren't getting down to business & making fab maps & content.. :p

[elmuerte]

Stands to reason - if you're spending all day practicing your aim and pwning noobs then you aren't getting down to business & making fab maps & content.. :p
Not unless you upgrade to 36 hour days

[MonsOlympus]

Originally posted by elmuerte
Not unless you upgrade to 36 hour days

So if Ive got a dualcore does that mean I get 48 rofl :p

[Luv_Studd]

I'm a very average DM/TDM player, because I don't have much time to play, but I understand the gameplay & layout mechanics enough to create decent DM maps to play on, imo.

I rely heavily on beta tester feedback and those who are good at playing the game. I also do a lot of playtesting on other people's maps, studying what works and what doesn't, and that helps me improve my skills.

[Brad]

Everyones got great points!

And please, I'm not trying to come off as "great" maybe I shouldn't have used that word. Great maybe in my own little world. :rolleyes:

Anyways, yeah I agree you dont have to be a great player to build great maps, but it helps ALOT! Any way you look at it, I'd rather a map designed by an average mapper who is good at PLAYING the game. Than an average player who is GREAT at mapping. Because the better player will have a higher understanding of gameplay mechanics and build with that mentality. I'm not saying it's impossible for a great mapper do create a fun map. But they tend to get carried away with the visuals and how detailed things are and loose focus of the big picture! ;)

Just my opinion. :)

I know I'd rather play a map that has basic walls and textures, but fun to play. Than a map that is incredibly well detailed and artistic but lacks gameplay. Because in the end its the gameplay that keeps you playing not the fancy architecture.

[Scylla]

What maps have you made Brad? I've never heard of you before.

[p2xelgen]

You don't know that for sure ;)

Na I'm sure he would frag me all over the arena. :p

[chiefwhosm]

well since he said for RA, I did a google for Rocket Arena Brad and the only map I could find for RA was by a person called Brad Ridder is RA-Qwerty, googling the name finds other maps, but whether it's him or not who knows :)

[Hamburger]

I hear Andaction is popular. Man you have to be real good to make popular maps. ;)

[Brad]

No, I didn't do RA-Qwerty.

I did RA-Broken and RA-Beta-c.

[ShredPrince]

^yup

Playing too much makes you map differently.

[BigJim]

Before you can create any successful map you need to be a playa (http://img36.photobucket.com/albums/v109/nurshad/silky_johnson1.jpg) first ;)

[Rammeh]

I don't think you have to be an awesome player to make an awesome map. To be honest, I see myself as quite a good player </modesty> but I still don't understand most of the game - it's quite difficult to put your finger on what aspects of a map make it flow, what make it enjoyable, what make it good.

It depends on what type of player you are - an analytical player, or a casual gamer. The former will be able to make a good map even if they are not necessarily that good at the game, whilst the latter I'm sure would struggle to even get a good structure going, let alone be able to get the general layout and flow to work.

I'm sure you'll agree that the ability to get 50% LG accuracy and the ability to make a map flow are different things, but certainly you need to play the game before you can map it.

[Aggressor]

Not unless you upgrade to 36 hour days

Yeah, that's how Angelheart does it.