hmmm spam fest??

[ShredPrince]

Well ok.

we've had these dodge jump, and movement disscussions abound here.

After just playing a match in Rankin wit about 16 people it dawned on me that maybe UT07 is going to be "Spam Dominant".

I mean it's been said that the movement in 2k4 is too much, but when the CHOAS goes up to 10, it really is not too much, in fact it's needed....any thoughts?

I just am trying to picture deck with 20 player all walking in mud getting spammed to death....sounds like not a whole lot of fun to me.

[VoodooPriest]

just picture ut99 then

[ez_jamin]

i hate ut99 hey need to move on imo.

[GuntiNDDS]

Well ok.

we've had these dodge jump, and movement disscussions abound here.

After just playing a match in Rankin wit about 16 people it dawned on me that maybe UT07 is going to be "Spam Dominant".

I mean it's been said that the movement in 2k4 is too much, but when the CHOAS goes up to 10, it really is not too much, in fact it's needed....any thoughts?

I just am trying to picture deck with 20 player all walking in mud getting spammed to death....sounds like not a whole lot of fun to me.

its not that all they do is taking out the dodge-jump and everything else keeps the same. it influences map design and propably also have an impact on the weapons and all kinds of stuff. and in the end, if they do it right, it will propably work out.

[{SM}LeadSniper]

all i care is if i can blow the s@#$ out of people.

[blackout]

rankin hasn't been built for 16 players, easy as that; when there is an enemy behind a corner, what else should there occur than spam?

[Gregori]

i hate ut99 hey need to move on imo.


Loads of people hate UT2kx, plain and simple. They hate the hitscan dominance and lack of spammy fun like the original. This is why Epic is moving on from the UT2kx era and making the game a little closer to the original that everybody knows and loves the series by.

[fuegerstef]

Loads of people hate UT2kx, plain and simple. They hate the hitscan dominance and lack of spammy fun like the original. This is why Epic is moving on from the UT2kx era and making the game a little closer to the original that everybody knows and loves the series by.

Actually the reduce spam from 2k4 to 2k7.

[Gregori]

Actually the reduce spam from 2k4 to 2k7.


That sentence doesn't even make sense.

I seriously doubt they're making this game less spammy than UT2k4. Where have you got this idea from?

[McFly2000]

i hate ut99 hey need to move on imo.

No, you need to move on.
UT99 is and was vastly more popular than it's successors.

By making UT2k7 more like UT99, Epic are doing the exactl right thing.

[The5thviruz]

Loads of people hate UT2kx, plain and simple. They hate how it requires skill to kill people unlike the original. This is why Epic is moving on from the UT2kx era and making the game a little closer to the original so we don't get so many people crying when they can't use the weapons correctly.

Fixed that for you.

[Gregori]

Fixed that for you.


Makes no difference to me, Nearly everybody like UT's spammy ways better, which is why Epic is changing it to be more like the original. Most players of UT2kx didn't like being killed from a million feet away by a few hitscan obsessed freaks because the movement/scale is screwed up.

Most people have things called lives that prevent them from getting as good as the pros with hitscan, they don't give a ****, and just want to pop this game in the drive and have some crazy fun. Epic is targeting the game at the right group of people this time!:)

[iLL]

In 2k4 the movement forced you to hone your aim and anticipation skills (as I've mentioned before).If they remove this they will most likely please the 99players and allow for noobs to be able to actually get more than 5 frags in a match because yes,they will be able to get some spammy frags whereas in
2k4 it is much harder to do so.This is why so many noobs come into 2k4 new,play for an hour,and say f*ck this game and jet.

I am all for "in your face" fighting,but not spam.Its also easy for someone who especially is new to the game or having a bad day to mistake chaos for spam though.Not meaning you,just mentioning it.

BTW in case you have not figured this one out.Noobs + 99ers probably > in numbers than the 2k4 players therefore for Epicto make bank who do you think they will most likely try to cater to in UT2k7.

I think it will definitely be a bit more spammy,but not enough to suck the fun out of it and hurt skilled players too much.

[fuegerstef]

That sentence doesn't even make sense.

I seriously doubt they're making this game less spammy than UT2k4. Where have you got this idea from?

Very simple, you only have to compare the existing games (UT and UT2004), combine that with the "facts" we know about that UT2007 will be closer to UT again (in terms of "in yer face" and weapon strength) and then substract what is not in the game.

-Currently it is harder to kill or hit people due to the crazy movement => a lot of shots miss => a lot of shots are spammed without hitting.
-Reduced movement = More shots hit => less spam
-The spammiest weapon from UT (Ripper) won't be in.

[Gregori]

Very simple, you only have to compare the existing games (UT and UT2004), combine that with the "facts" we know about that UT2007 will be closer to UT again (in terms of "in yer face" and weapon strength) and then substract what is not in the game.

-Currently it is harder to kill or hit people due to the crazy movement => a lot of shots miss => a lot of shots are spammed without hitting.
-Reduced movement = More shots hit => less spam
-The spammiest weapon from UT (Ripper) won't be in.

Reduce movements= smaller maps = more spam.
Rocket launcher fires three grenades= spam.

[Jrubzjeknf]

reduce movements = slower players = easier for hitscan

balances itself out imo

[fuegerstef]

reduce movements = slower players = easier for hitscan

balances itself out imo

Useless to tell him, he won't get it anyways.

[Gregori]

reduce movements = slower players = easier for hitscan

balances itself out imo


Reduced map sizes will make projectiles more effective against hitscan.

Since no one know the weapon stats, its hard to tell whats this game will be like however. Epic have implied that they are going back to the the fell of UT, which means it will probably be a little more spammy than UT2k4. The grenades on the Rocket launcher imply this.

[Gregori]

Useless to tell him, he won't get it anyways.


Stop being pathetic!

[fuegerstef]

Reduced map sizes will make projectiles more effective against hitscan.

Since no one know the weapon stats, its hard to tell whats this game will be like however. Epic have implied that they are going back to the the fell of UT, which means it will probably be a little more spammy than UT2k4. The grenades on the Rocket launcher imply this.

What about the Enforcers... ...AR was Grenade spam with every player-respawn without having to find the RL first?

ANd as you said: More effective Projectiles => easier to kill without missing/spamming them all over the place.

EDIT:
The new link primary also has faster projectiles (from the video, just as the Pulse gun from UT) and seem to be able to hit people without spamming around for minutes.

[Gregori]

What about the Enforcers... ...AR was Grenade spam with every player-respawn without having to find the RL first?

ANd as you said: More effective Projectiles => easier to kill without missing/spamming them all over the place.

EDIT:
The new link primary also has faster projectiles (from the video, just as the Pulse gun from UT) and seem to be able to hit people without spamming around for minutes.

People will spam all those weapons in anyway just because they can!

[fuegerstef]

People will spam all those weapons in anyway just because they can!

Yes, just as they do now in UT2k4. Just that the shot/hit ration will be better... ...resulting in less spam.

[blackout]

let me collect all the information of this thread...
blah, blah, blah.
great.
you better wait for the demo before you argue about the practical part of the gameplay.

[BigJim]

--incoming bias, opinions, and some mild rants--

Firing off lots of shots doesn't by definition make it spam, spam is when you can't avoid what is coming at you, be it with posts on a forum, email, or a(n) FPS.

UT was more spammy than 2Kx, because you were very limited in your movement options, and therefore in most situations could not avoid the fire that came your way, even if you could see it a mile away, not simply because there was more of it.

In addition, we seem to have more than one "type" of spam, or to be precise, we use the same term for more than one use.
Spamming is the act of just firing off in the random hope that someone will walk into your shots (it's not spam if you know they're there, to quote one of the T32 guys) - wheares something that is Spammey is something or a situation where you can't avoid the incomng fire no matter what you do, like those teeny-tiny maps full of flak, or a weapon that shoots off in such a wide arc & speed that all you can do is watch the shots fly at you with no hope of avoiding it or getting to cover.

(And yes, I do see the irony in trying to define what are essentially just made up words :p)

If I miss nearly all my shots at some leet player, it doesn't have to mean I'm spamming, it means he's very agile, and good at avoiding my clumsy fire.
If however I stand in the middle of a room, spin on the spot & hold down fire, then I am spamming (and ought to be shot by everyone else in the map, even my own team :p).

[MonsOlympus]

Yum spam!
Great idea shred epic should code it in so you can throw tins of spam around.

Its either gonna be hitscan or spam if your not good with either then well mwhahahahahaha

[Kronos]

After just playing a match in Rankin wit about 16 people it dawned on me that maybe UT07 is going to be "Spam Dominant".

If u were to think about it, players in UT2007 will actually be more vulnerable
to hitscan considering they cant move as fast which makes them not able to get around corners, keeping them in line of site most of the time, and second I think considering that people wont be getting around the map as fast as they do in UT2004 they will be even less vulnerable to spam sence they cant just chase some one down with fast speeds like in UT2004.
And if by all means it is "spam dominant" that does not mean that it is bad, honnestly i think "hitscan dominant" is a little gay itself, its not that hard to point the crosshair on some one and pull the trigger.

[The5thviruz]

its not that hard to point the crosshair on some one and pull the trigger.

That's way out of the league of most people here.

[Kronos]

That's way out of the league of most people here.

Hitscan reminds me of thoughs advertisements where u have to shoot the moving monkey to win a new PS3.

[wickedsteve]

I have said it before, I'll say it again.
"It is not spam, it is suppressive fire." ;)

[ShredPrince]

Loads of people hate UT2kx, plain and simple. They hate the hitscan dominance and lack of spammy fun like the original. This is why Epic is moving on from the UT2kx era and making the game a little closer to the original that everybody knows and loves the series by.

Just as I thought: UT99 players got scared of the extra movement.

Oh well, we know the masses like their games simple, and easy, and SPAMMY.

HEy I want my UT to be like Halo as well, that way it's easy to play:NOT!:p

[Gregori]

Just as I thought: UT99 players got scared of the extra movement.

Oh well, we know the masses like their games simple, and easy, and SPAMMY.

HEy I want my UT to be like Halo as well, that way it's easy to play:NOT!:p

Blaaaaaaaa blaaaa blaaaaaaaa. The masses pay Epic's bills! UT2k7 will not be like Halo. UT2kx's movement made the game too hard for the majority of players, and allowed a small minority of pixel pointing freaks to dominate with hitscan.
UT99 was a far more fun game than its sequels, end of story!

[ShredPrince]

not really...LOL

Thats the problem here, Epic is appealing to the "new audience" not the old one...LOL

Just watch gameplay dood, it does'nt even seem like 99 man...it's like Halo witha dodge added in.

[Axeman]

Um- do you blame Epic for trying to appeal to a new audience. They are, after all, out to make money and try to appease their community (which is, obviously, divided in half- if not more). Something that is nearly impossible to do. And let's face it- UT2KX hasn't had the shelf life that they probably expected.
I don't envy their position.
They will end up w/ 2KX'ers whining about , they'll have UT99'ers whining about [insert gripe here] and the "new audience" whining about [insert gripe here].

Spam- this topic is laughable. There will always be spam, spammers and spammy weapons. It's impossible to avoid. It's not so much the weapons but rather the people who play and the people who map.

I honestly think the weapons for 2K4 are relatively balanced. Yes, there is a hit scan dominance, but that is because the maps have to be wide-open to account for the movement options. It's generally the map layout and set up that creates spam (or hit scan) dominance, not the weapons.

And you'll always have people who simply just hold the trigger and run crazily through a map.

I guess there's only one thing to do- Keep dodge jumping and double jumping and wall dodging- add in some crouch jumping and ceiling jumping and cartwheels. Then arm us all w/ 10-pump daisy air rifles and impact hammers and the winner isn't who's killed the most folks, but rather who has the most health at the end of the match.

My opinion- all these polls and speculation and arguing is silly and pointless. We have NO idea how the game is going to play by watching a couple 2-5 minute trailers at this stage of development- when I'm sure the game is evolving everyday.

Here's a novel idea- why don't we just wait for the demo- play it and [i]then have some level-headed discussions on what you think is good and what you don't think works.

And at that point- I can guarantee you one thing- not everyone will be happy.

-Axe

[Gregori]

not really...LOL

Thats the problem here, Epic is appealing to the "new audience" not the old one...LOL

Just watch gameplay dood, it does'nt even seem like 99 man...it's like Halo witha dodge added in.


Its looks nothin like halo, you a merely **** talking!

[Kronos]

I think this thread ended at Axemans post.

[Gregori]

I think this thread ended at Axemans post.

Then you ruined that by posting!:)

[ShredPrince]

Yes I do blame them for appealing to idiots.

These people that they are trying to get to play the game still are'nt gonna play it now, like they even look at it...LOL....it's retartded.

You put someone new to Unreal in there, the average gamer, and they're like WOAH! This is too crazy: Even UT99.

They need to realize that this is a niche type of game, and always will be just due to the premise of it.

[Modulus]

With the spam in 99 it was HARDER to stay alive and therefore more of a challenge to completely dominate the competition than in 2k4. Where you people are coming up with the rational that because it's easier for noobs to get ONE or TWO kills accidentally in 99 that it's a system FOR NOOBS, is beyond me... It just allows the noobs to appreciate the game a little more and have some fun with the rest of us that know how to avoid incoming spam fire and this and that.

Any really good UT99 player will tell you that while there is more spam in 99 you deal with it... I mean it's rare that spam in that game will kill you outright when you've got full health or full health and armor... It's more like a gradual chipping away at your life that you have to watch out for.

I hate the gay hitscan dominance of 2k4... It's completely alienated a huge portion of people I would otherwise be owning if they just were able to get a few lucky kills here and there and didn't get completely frustrated.

[Modulus]

Yes I do blame them for appealing to idiots.

These people that they are trying to get to play the game still are'nt gonna play it now, like they even look at it...LOL....it's retartded.

You put someone new to Unreal in there, the average gamer, and they're like WOAH! This is too crazy: Even UT99.

They need to realize that this is a niche type of game, and always will be just due to the premise of it.

Huh? So then why did UT99 appeal to me? It was about... damn 8 years ago when I played my first FPS ever, UT. It appealed to me a great deal back then... Just as I'm sure 2k7 will appeal to new players as well.

Dude, chill out... They got rid of dodge-jumping and tweaked the weapons... If you're any good at anything other than shock primary and LG than you're just going to have to adapt or keep on playing 2k4.

I for one can see the genius in what Epic is doing. Going back to it's roots to both increase the number of people that buy, play and stick with the game... As well as to give some of the 2k4 ppl what they want (double jump, etc.) AND the UT99 players what they want (more hectic gameplay with more powerful weapons). Will it work? No one can really say until we get to play it.

[theeDEATHMASTER]

Spam fest...hehe, I dont think some of you have even played UT 99.

[fuegerstef]

If I miss nearly all my shots at some leet player, it doesn't have to mean I'm spamming, it means he's very agile,

Yes, and IMHO this is a spammy game.

[iLL]

Um- do you blame Epic for trying to appeal to a new audience. They are, after all, out to make money and try to appease their community (which is, obviously, divided in half- if not more). Something that is nearly impossible to do. And let's face it- UT2KX hasn't had the shelf life that they probably expected.
I don't envy their position.
They will end up w/ 2KX'ers whining about , they'll have UT99'ers whining about [insert gripe here] and the "new audience" whining about [insert gripe here].

Spam- this topic is laughable. There will always be spam, spammers and spammy weapons. It's impossible to avoid. It's not so much the weapons but rather the people who play and the people who map.

I honestly think the weapons for 2K4 are relatively balanced. Yes, there is a hit scan dominance, but that is because the maps have to be wide-open to account for the movement options. It's generally the map layout and set up that creates spam (or hit scan) dominance, not the weapons.

And you'll always have people who simply just hold the trigger and run crazily through a map.

I guess there's only one thing to do- Keep dodge jumping and double jumping and wall dodging- add in some crouch jumping and ceiling jumping and cartwheels. Then arm us all w/ 10-pump daisy air rifles and impact hammers and the winner isn't who's killed the most folks, but rather who has the most health at the end of the match.

My opinion- all these polls and speculation and arguing is silly and pointless. We have NO idea how the game is going to play by watching a couple 2-5 minute trailers at this stage of development- when I'm sure the game is evolving everyday.

Here's a novel idea- why don't we just wait for the demo- play it and [i]then have some level-headed discussions on what you think is good and what you don't think works.

And at that point- I can guarantee you one thing- not everyone will be happy.

-Axe


Agreed with everything wholeheatedly until your opinion came into play.This is America though,so we can have our opinions...including silly pointless ones.

Just a novel suggestion here.
If its all pointless,then don't post.You wouldn't want anyone to think you're silly now would ya?;) Hell why even read here?Its all silliness anyway.Why waste time?

Also this kills time until Spring on 2007 when it will finally be here(my pointless speculation anyway).Epic is supposedly reading some of this to actually tweak the game a bit more to the majority ( or whichever way will make the most coin)I do not blame them for all of the vehicular crap,Theres money in it.So long as the put equal thought and effort into the other gametypes that got them where they are now.Hell if you ask me,we actually help them to make money.I mean they can pretty much see what a lot of the players want just by reading UT forums.

I thought these were forums.In every forum I am a part of there is some extent of discussion,speculation,help,flaming,debating,argui ng,lameness,silliness,humor,
help,etc. hence the General label on the subcategory.

Why wait for demo to discuss?After demo the chances of them listening here may be good,but Epic changing game content seems rather slim unless its a quick fix or tweak.(Damn,thats just speculation again)

Let them know now while its in developement I say.Also why open 2k7 forums if not to discuss UT2k7.If not here then it will just be in 2k4 forums for the next 6 months.Sure theres some lame threads and posts,but theres also some stuff on these boards that a few us might find useful or hope to get a dev reply about.

I did agree with the not everyone will be happy no matter what comment though.

I was pretty sure that UT2k7 was going to please even the players who don't buy it.Thanks for clearing up all of this silliness.;)

[fuegerstef]

Well put, iLL. :)

And I agree especially on the demo part, where you say that probably little tweaks are made but maps aren'T changed. WE had thisproblem with Torlan in UT2k4. People pointed out the problems while only the demo was out. But EPIC doesn't patch maps and kept it as it was, so that the retail version can connect tot he demo.

[Scylla]

Removing dodge jumping is just going to increase hitscan dominance. In UT 2004 you could dodge jump to them if you didn't have any good hitscan weapon. Also, the dm maps weren't huge, there was just enough room to dodge jump-I guess none of you have played on rankin before...
Not to mention you have the shield gun, so shock would be deflected and the lightning gun wouldn't do as much damage, but now they have removed it and placed the impact hammer in, you are screwed against hitscan.

And what about warefare and onslaught? Sure, you can try to use the hoverboard but you'll just get shot down by anyone who knows how to play...

[ShredPrince]

Removing dodge jumping is just going to increase hitscan dominance. In UT 2004 you could dodge jump to them if you didn't have any good hitscan weapon. Also, the dm maps weren't huge, there was just enough room to dodge jump-I guess none of you have played on rankin before...
Not to mention you have the shield gun, so shock would be deflected and the lightning gun wouldn't do as much damage, but now they have removed it and placed the impact hammer in, you are screwed against hitscan.

And what about warefare and onslaught? Sure, you can try to use the hoverboard but you'll just get shot down by anyone who knows how to play...


Yeah I dodge jump on every map, so that a bunch of crap.

[Xyx]

Movement does affect hitscan dominance. Infinitely fast movement means no projectile can ever hit, infinitely slow movement means projectiles hit as easily as hitscan. Anywhere in between is a sliding scale.

Greatest effect on hitscan dominance lies in the weapons. If hitscan deals the same damage per second as projectiles that can be dodged, why use projectiles? Contrary, if projectiles have such a huge and damaging blast radius they're almost impossible avoid, why bother with hitscan?

Next greatest hitscan dominance factor lies in the maps. Tiny corridors make for good flak spam. Well, not really spam, according to the definitions above, since you know you'll hit something... but still feels pretty spammy to most people.

Most UT99 maps had a good mix of open hitscan grounds and spammy corridors. That gave every type of player the opportunity to fight in their preferred environment. UT200X is 99% hitscan ground.

[MonsOlympus]

Originally posted by ShredPrince
Yeah I dodge jump on every map, so that a bunch of crap.

Im sooo glad 2k4 doesnt have more aircontrol in a way, it would give you alittle more chance against hitscan but damn I only dodge-jump if I really need to, way over used IMO

[DrDoomed]

[QUOTE=BigJim

(And yes, I do see the irony in trying to define what are essentially just made up words :p)

[/QUOTE]

All words started off bein made up eh ;)

but i agree with ur definition.

Spam has no real aim its just a spray and pray mentality.

[aleXtrm]

Didn't they say that even though some of the dodge moves have been removed, the movement speed has been increased?

[Axeman]

Everything iLL said above....not going to quote the whole thing- good post- sarcasm is my second language

I should have been more specific- level-headed discussions are acceptable. And Epic probably will read those and take them under consideration even prior to a demo. I give it up to you on that.

Some folks in this thread have made valid comments using rational language (and grammar) all backed with solid reasoning. I don't have a problem with that.

I suppose what I was referring to is when folks get to the "it's teh suxxor- get ridz ofi t" and then the next post is "Screwd at, if ew wnt gaylo well gop lay gaylo". And on and on and on.

I seriously doubt if Epic will then take the debate seriously. So- I guess what I'm trying to say- if you want to have a debate about a particular game feature that may or may not be in the game, then have one, but use common sense in your posts and give examples or reasoning behind your opinion. Resorting to personal insults or making statements with no logic attached only cheapens the debate and, therefore, the thread.

My humblest apologies for not making that clearer in my initial post in this thread.

-Axe

[Gregori]

Removing dodge jumping is just going to increase hitscan dominance. In UT 2004 you could dodge jump to them if you didn't have any good hitscan weapon. Also, the dm maps weren't huge, there was just enough room to dodge jump-I guess none of you have played on rankin before...
Not to mention you have the shield gun, so shock would be deflected and the lightning gun wouldn't do as much damage, but now they have removed it and placed the impact hammer in, you are screwed against hitscan.

And what about warefare and onslaught? Sure, you can try to use the hoverboard but you'll just get shot down by anyone who knows how to play...


Having dodge jump allows people to dominate with hitscan in the following ways:

1) Dodge jump requires bigger maps with wide open spaces to acommodate for distance you can travel with the move. This makes projectiles and splash damage much less effective. Why wait for a rocket/shock cores to travel across a map to hit someone when you can mill them out of it with shock beams/lightening in relative safety.

2) Dodge jump allows people dominating with hitscan weapons to flee the scene really quickly, so that they're out of range unless you also have a ShockRifle/Lightening gun, other weapons esp projectiles will never make it there on time.

Dodging, Double jump and wall dodge are enough for dodging hitscan once the map/playerscale is fixed.

[iLL]

I suppose what I was referring to is when folks get to the "it's teh suxxor- get ridz ofi t" and then the next post is "Screwd at, if ew wnt gaylo well gop lay gaylo". And on and on and on.
-Axe

I agree with that full post this time.This above comment was funny too and I do see where you are coming from.
If English is not someone's first language then I will cut them some slack since my grammar and punctuation is far from great.I even understand laziness at times(i.e. 3 a.m. or something),but when the language is abused all to hell repeatedly and you've read the post 3 times and you're still scratching your head it gets old fast and makes you not want to post and or read anything in that thread at least.

[Axeman]

Alright- cool, iLL.

Now- here's my thoughts on the whole spam/hitscan dominance and the dodge jump/double jump debates:

Spam/Hitscan: In UT99 there was more spam. And I say spam using the definition that you are unable to avoid weapon fire no matter what you do. The reason for this is the flak shards were able to bounce more than once and the spread was greater; the rocket launcher was able to shoot 6 projectiles at once and it also had a secondary fire where you could randomly spray 6 bouncing "grenades" that did great damage.
And, generally, the map's corridors were narrower and there was less open space in them.

But, it was also hit scan dominant as well. If you came across a player with great aim on a map where it was easy to camp you would continuously find yourself without a head. (And the headbox actually started about mid-chest in UT99 so it was easier to get a headshot as well).

In my opinion UT99 was great. It was my first online fps game and I fell in love with it and I must say that it was a tough transition to UT2kX. I actually rarely played UT2003 and really didn't "move on" until UT2004.
I am a realist as well- I don't think there will ever be a game that grabbed me like UT99, but it's kind of like a first love- you may have other loves in your life, but you'll always compare them to your first.

As I said in my initial post- I really do believe that the weapon balance is really about as good as it can get in UT2004. There truly is a weapon for every situation and some are better in certain situations than others.

UT2kX tried to get away from the spamminess and make it more of an agile game by introducing the new movement options.

Dodge jumping/double jumping:
Unfortunately, the addition of these new movement options really distorted the player scale to the environment. An average corridor in UT99 was around 256-384 units wide, 384-512 units high and about 768-1024 units long. And it took a little time to navigate them.
In UT2004- a player can get through a 1024 hallway in one and half dodge jumps in the time it takes to execute the keystrokes. And if you put someone, me included, in a UT99 scaled hallway in UT2004 I feel cramped.
Why? Because I can't dodge jump as easily. I almost hit my head on a 384 ceiling when I try to double jump and I definitely hit my head if I wall dodge.

The solution to this problem was to scale the maps up. Halls needed to be wider, ceilings had to be taller and the corridors needed to be longer.
This fixed the cramped feeling but also created other problems.

A player standing in a normal doorway now looked like Mini-Me standing before Fat Bastard. Courtyard areas are now more open because of the ability to dodge jump from catwalk to catwalk. And it caused the gameplay to shift in a more hitscan dominant direction because the maps had to be more open.
All this coupled with the flak and rocket launcher toned down in UT004- flak shards only good for one bounce, spray range reduced; rocket launcher now only shoot three projectiles w/ no secondary grenades made UT2004 more hitscan dominant.

Plus- add in the shock rifle "stun" and it easily makes the shock rifle the gun to master in UT2004. And- as it has been stated- it is much harder for someone new to the series to jump on a server and be "in the hunt".

Imagine this- some poor newbie jumps in a Rankin demo server- grabs the flak and shoots it once and says "wow, this is cool.".
Rounds the corner, grabs the three adrenaline pills saying "wtf are those" to himself--when he sees him. His first enemy encounter.
He gets ready to pull the trigger when his opponent jumps twice next to the wall, wall dodges to the elevated area by the udam and comboes him before the noob can turn his head.

Rinse-repeat.

Noob player says to himself "wow, gee...fun". Uninstalls demo and goes back to Halo, BF1942 or, really, whatever game he was playing before he decided to download UT200X.
I can guarantee you that this has happened.

I think a balance between UT99 and UT2004 can be found, but I'd rather see the double jump go before the dodge jump. I'd also like to see the wall dodge go if it will help improve player scale. I think it's the double jump that caused more issues w/ player scale more than dodge jump (although I'd like to see the dodge jump distance cut considerably and increase the world gravity).

In this way, you still have some quick means to elude "spam" or "hit scan" dominance because you can still quickly move, but you also bring all the weapons back into play because, hopefully, the environment is in a more appropriate scale to the player. There's a place perfect for the flak and rockets. There's a place perfect for the shock and on and on. Essentially, level designers can truly make map areas "weapon specific" as in a specific weapon will work better in "this" part of the map than another one.

And that's kind of how UT99 was. To me at least.

-Axe

[Tenspeed]

My definition of spam is just shooting around like a maniac with no real aim, it seems like your definition of spam means good aim, I mean flak in ut99 was not unavoidable and neither were rockets, they were not instant and flak was really innacurate from far distances, anyway besides the spam thing I pretty much agree with your post axeman.

[wickedsteve]

Oh well, we know the masses like their games simple, and easy, and SPAMMY.

Easy? Are you playing single player? On line the game is only as hard or easy as your opponents.

[MonsOlympus]

So then Online the game is only as spammy or hitscan dominant as your opponents?

[da ghost]

People will spam all those weapons in anyway just because they can!

I'm sorry, but you need to get off the demo servers and play some real players before you decide that you're the expert in UT99 and UT2KX gameplay mechanics.

[Gregori]

I'm sorry, but you need to get off the demo servers and play some real players before you decide that you're the expert in UT99 and UT2KX gameplay mechanics.


Oh, So people won't take advantage of the spaminess of weapons to get some cheap frags, well how very kind of them!:p

[Boksha]

Because I didn't want to waste my 10000th post on a silly comparison between football and online games, I'll just post it here:

I LOVE SPAM!

...just not on forums. All of these posts were quite on-topic. :)

Seriously though, I'm all for UT2007 being less hitscan oriented. Sure, it'll mean more spam in 12 player FFA servers in whatever the remake of Rankin is called, but it was that way in UT and it was fun. If you want to survive all of the badly aimed and random but still lethal barrage, you'd better stay away from the hotspots and collect some armour; you'll have to be more careful and it'll be harder to stay alive even against weaker opponents, which is a good thing.
IMHO, it's time the words "Killing spree" actually started to MEAN something again.

[Modulus]

IMHO, it's time the words "Killing spree" actually started to MEAN something again.

HERE HERE!

That's the thing too... When I went Unstoppable, or even Godlike on a FFA server with 12 other people in UT it really meant something special. Not only could I frag, but I also knew the map well enough and played smart enough to stay alive for 20-30 frags. When that happens you get a lot of people complimenting you and saying basically how awesome you are. That's awesome when that happens. In 2k4 I get killing sprees all... the... time... but who cares? It's easy to do... EZ PZ JAPAN-EZ

I hope that the TDM scoreboard in the next iteration of UT includes number of deaths for each player as well as thier frag count. Since deaths and frags and suicides modify your total score a more detailed breakdown would be great... OT though.

[Xyx]

it's time the words "Killing spree" actually started to MEAN something again.
Hear, hear, even! ;)

[Selerox]

Seriously though, I'm all for UT2007 being less hitscan oriented. Sure, it'll mean more spam in 12 player FFA servers in whatever the remake of Rankin is called, but it was that way in UT and it was fun. If you want to survive all of the badly aimed and random but still lethal barrage, you'd better stay away from the hotspots and collect some armour; you'll have to be more careful and it'll be harder to stay alive even against weaker opponents, which is a good thing.
IMHO, it's time the words "Killing spree" actually started to MEAN something again.

Agreed.

Hitscan dominance puts off new players. New players who are essential for the longevity of the game. UT99 kept new players, while still having the depth to allow great players to shine. High power projectile weapons lent the game an edge that allowed new players to have a chance. In a hitscan dominated game, they don't have a chance. If anyone thinks that's "n00bifying" the game, then please stop playing UT, because you're bad for the community and you're not wanted.

It's about time people stopped perpetuating the falsehood that hitscan = skill.

[Boksha]

It's about time people stopped perpetuating the falsehood that hitscan = skill. That wouldn't hurt either. :p

[MonsOlympus]

Originally Posted by Selerox
It's about time people stopped perpetuating the falsehood that hitscan = skill.
Very well put, +1 ;)

[Rammeh]

Well, Selerox, we meet again!
Now before you all say I'm whining by saying the word "spam" as so many people do, I'm saying that because that's what it's called.

If you look at the TAM and CTF communities, the top teams always have at least one spammer, if they don't consist entirely of spammers anyway. What does that tell us? Quite a lot of good players do, although they whine about them, acknowledge that spam is a necessity, and that it is a skill - I'm pretty good at hitscan, can get 50% accuracy with one and 30% with the other on a good day - but I'm absolutely useless at spam, can't do it to save my life, and it's the thing which kills me the most.

Right, so it's been established that spam is a skill, in the same way that hitscan is, and don't whine at me about that, I beg of you :< True skill is a combination of both and some more (movement, thinking etc.), and I agree that people shouldn't be branded "pr0" just because they can aim.

[Garcia y Vega]

all these noobs dodge jumping to much in 2k4 is what makes the hitscan so powerful...

[iLL]

If anyone thinks that's "n00bifying" the game, then please stop playing UT, because you're bad for the community and you're not wanted.


I assume this means me since that is my made up word.
FYI,I did stop playing UT.Fun while it lasted,but I was looking for a better challenge.

I moved up to the big boys game(2k4)with acrobatic chaos(instead of all grounded battles) making it harder to hit people with less spam weapons and more agility.

2k4-Smaller combos,less rockets,more movement options,etc.Its a harder game,just say it.

If 2k7 is more like 99's movement you will just be easier to hit.Since I have been accustomed to 2k4's wild movement for the past 2 years you will seem like you're practically standing still.

Doesn't matter,you 99ers got your way anyway so it seems.Maybe the term "noobify" was a bit harsh.Lets say Epic is "simplifying" the movement to appeal to 99 players and noobs.

[Gregori]

I moved up to the big boys game(2k4)with acrobatic chaos(instead of all grounded battles) making it harder to hit people with less spam weapons and more agility.



Doesn't matter,you 99ers got your way anyway so it seems.Maybe the term "noobify" was a bit harsh.Lets say Epic is "simplifying" the movement to appeal to 99 players and noobs.


Dodge jumps and acrobatics are for wimpy people who want to run away from a real fight, and use lame titscan weapons.

[iLL]

Dodge jumps and acrobatics are for wimpy people who want to run away from a real fight, and use lame titscan weapons.

You are entitled to your opinion but calling people wimpy...hmmm isn't that kinda sad as you posted in the dodge jump thread.You did say that name calling is sad,correct?

It kinda sounds like to me you just cannot master that darn LG or you have been severely tore up by it.You just need to pay more dues man.I got beat down hard with it too my first year,but I picked it up eventually and I normally dish as much as I take nowadays.

I can also say in all of the "tit scanning" experiences I have never had a lame one either.;)

I know you will post in both this thread and dodge jump until the end of time so you can have the last word in both.

I am going to lame it up with some LG hitscan domination on some "new players" and dodge away wimpy like:D

[ShredPrince]

You are entitled to your opinion but calling people wimpy...hmmm isn't that kinda sad as you posted in the dodge jump thread.You did say that name calling is sad,correct?

It kinda sounds like to me you just cannot master than darn LG or you have been severely tore up by it.You just need to pay more dues man.I got beat down hard with it too my first year,but I picked it up eventually and I normally dish as much as I take nowadays.

I can also say in all of tit scanning experiences I have never had a lame one either.;)

I know you will post in both this thread and dodge jump until the end of time so you can have the last word in both.

I am going to lame it up with some LG hitscan domination on some "new players" and dodge away wimpy like:D

agreed/

The fact is the are laimig the game down to increase sales.Quit kissing Epic booty for no apparent reason.

[MonsOlympus]

Originally Posted by iLL
I am going to lame it up with some LG hitscan domination on some "new players" and dodge away wimpy like

I got no problems with the LG myself its the people behind them I usually have the problem with. Its because in my experience these players will vote for a map they know is dominated by LG skills then call you n00b when you tell them they suck because they can only use one weapon. I'll be the first to admit my LG skills are less than average but gimme a shock and prim I can handle it. Thing with the LG is you can stop people even getting a weapon that lets you fight on even terms.

Rox might have been more of a threat to LG players if the projectiles actually moved quicker than most of the jumppads throw the player. Also pingz got alot to do with it someone with 10 ping who pawns me constantly on 100 ping with the LG cant call themselves "pro"!


Originally Posted by Gregori
Dodge jumps and acrobatics are for wimpy people who want to run away from a real fight, and use lame titscan weapons.

I dont agree with this either acrobatics can be useful in a close range fight, Ive found a well placed double jump over a core (before the combo) flings you right towards the player and bring them within flakk range :D

The truth of the matter I think is that the hitscan weapons didnt need adjusting to new movement but the spam did, they just didnt recieve the right treatment.

[iLL]

Thing with the LG is you can stop people even getting a weapon that lets you fight on even terms.

Also pingz got alot to do with it someone with 10 ping who pwns me constantly on 100 ping with the LG cant call themselves "pro"!



Your first comment is totally true.I personally am more of a shock guy,but due to severe ownage with the LG I was "forced" to learn it to compete.Shock primary does not compete well with LG(long range)due to the damage difference.Shock has faster ROF,but still was not balanced.You have to hit them twice w the shock beam to their once w/LG.I have said time and time again,all the LG needs is lower damage and possibly a distance limitation if any,just to keep the long range only battles down.

Agreed on the ping as well.Gotta love those guys who think they are the sh*t when they have 10% of someone elses ping.This is the only reason I will not move to a rural area.

Also don't forget the PC.This game is very CPU dependent so a player thats running a 1 Ghz E-Machine,256 mb ram,with onboard video(:D sorry couldn't resist) is going to have some real troubles no matter of skill against a OC'ed 3ghz,MultiGigRam,SLI setup.Every millisecond counts in this game.

[Xyx]

Gotta love those guys who think they are the sh*t when they have 10% of someone elses ping.This is the only reason I will not move to a rural area.
Whoa, the only reason is that you'd be less good at a virtual pissing contest?

[iLL]

Whoa, the only reason is that you'd be less good at a virtual pissing contest?

Aren't you the one who just posted some immaturity crack in the dodge jump thread?
Im no saint,but wouldn't the above come close to immature?

You do not even know me,yet because I made some valid points on 2k4s challenging movements,and 99's simple style and now you're stalking me and whoring posts.You amuse me.You should stay on topic,stop the flames, or at least be funny.

I now understand where that post count came from. ;)

[Xyx]

Excuse me for commenting on a rather odd statement. If you do not wish to have your motives questioned, keep them off a public forum.

My post count is carried over from the Atari forums.

By the way, good job at dodging the question.

[iLL]

Excuse me for commenting on a rather odd statement. If you do not wish to have your motives questioned, keep them off a public forum.

My post count is carried over from the Atari forums.

By the way, good job at dodging the question.


Ok for one,I was not talking to you as you can see by me quoting MonsOlympus statements.

2)A little advice.Do not read or reply what I post because all you do is turn it into something childish and off topic.You're salty over my 2k4/2k7 views so now you just want to argue and waste my time.Refer to this in the future when I ignore your baseless comments.

3)Wheres the odd statement?If you mean the rural comment well we were talking about pings so figure it out.Most rural player have higher pings depending on the server locations therefore making gaming much more difficult for them.

As far as your post count -Hmm I wonder how much of them were constructive or helpful vs flames,insults,and +1s.Just because you have 3 thousand posts doesn't mean everyone has to take your sh*t.

Also I have never played "virtual pissing" so yeah I am probably no good at it.

Have your last word there,Gregori..oops,I mean Xyx.

[fuegerstef]

Have your last word there,Gregori..oops,I mean Xyx.

That me me smile a little. Yes they can easily be mixed up.

[Gregori]

That me me smile a little. Yes they can easily be mixed up.


Not to those who can read.

[Gregori]

2)A little advice. Read or reply what I post because all I do is turn it into something childish and off topic like how I made a completey unwarranted swipe at Gregori whilst having a debate with two different people. Very classy. You're salty over my 2k4/2k7 views so now you just want to argue and waste my time,(I have time to waste?, doing what exactly?). Refer to this in the future when I ignore your based and correct comments.

3)Wheres the odd statement?If you mean the rural comment well we were talking about pings so figure it out.Most rural player have higher pings depending on the server locations therefore making gaming much more difficult for them. I must prove myself against little twelve year olds online afterall and I can't do that with a lo ping.

Just because its a public internet forum means everyone has to take your sh*t.

Also I have played plenty of "virtual pissing competitions" during my time with UT2k4, so yeah I am probably no good at it.

Have your last word there,Gregori..oops,I mean Xyx.

I fixed this for you!

[Scylla]

Not to those who can read.

It does seem easy to mix you two up.


I fixed this for you!

You didn't do a very good job (I've taken the courtesy to bolding your mistakes):


I must prove myself against against little twelve year olds online afterall and I can't do that with a lo ping.


Just because its a public internet forum means everyone has to take your sh*t.
You need to get rid of "just" and add "it" before "means".

I hope you enjoyed this little grammar lecture (don't try and correct people and get it totally incorrect).

*Waits for the "NO U!" response from Gregori*

[Garcia y Vega]

looks at title... "hmm spam fest"

yes this thread certainly is

[Gregori]

It does seem easy to mix you two up.



You didn't do a very good job (I've taken the courtesy to bolding your mistakes):




You need to get rid of "just" and add "it" before "means".

I hope you enjoyed this little grammar lecture (don't try and correct people and get it totally incorrect).

*Waits for the "NO U!" response from Gregori*


Where you beaten as a child when you got your spellings wrong?


Obviously you have no life if you take my bad grammar to such offence :D

[BigJim]

To be fair, I reckon he was just pointing it out in response to;


Not to those who can read.

I've got nowt to do with this stealth arguement you guys have got going here, but that did make me chuckle a bit, fair-do's. :)

There; Now we've had a post that's not trying to argue with any-bugger, any chance we can carry on as-per, before the locksmith pays this thread a wee vist? :cool:


*EDIT* Spelling & grammer - the irony is not lost on me..

[Gregori]

To be fair, I reckon he was just pointing it out in response to;



I've got nowt to do with this stealth arguement you guys have got going here, but that did make me chuckle a bit, fair-do's. :)

There; Now we've had a post that's not trying to argue with any-bugger, any chance we can carry on as-per, before the locksmith pays this thread a wee vist? :cool:




I said read, not typewrite! ;)

There seems to be an argument falsely equating dodge-jumping hitscanning with skill when in fact its a hidden requirement to get from A to B quickly enough. It appears from videos that Epic have upped the run speed significantly, so this isn't really required anymore!:D

[TheDeviot]

Well I think most of us should be able to adapt to the changes, at least those of us who enjoyed BOTH UT, and UT2k3/4. I have mixed feelings about removing the dodge jump, On one hand it was another thing to throw in to confuse opponents, but on the other hand I used the other special jumps/dodges more.
My fear (Or selfish worry) is that they'll nerf the canister gun, and I won't get the same satisfaction of one hit bio sludge frags. Seeing how the Bio Rifle has always been my favorite weapon ;) But I'll probably play it religiously even if that happens. From what Epic has leaked so far I think it should be enjoyable enough for all UT fans. Despite this however, I do think Axeman is right though. Someone somewhere is going to complain about something. You can't please everyone with anything though no matter what you do.

[ShredPrince]

Yo Deviot Whats up fool: been a long time since Wicked Witch West huh!

I guess eternia is yours now?

[Gregori]

Well I think most of us should be able to adapt to the changes, at least those of us who enjoyed BOTH UT, and UT2k3/4. I have mixed feelings about removing the dodge jump, On one hand it was another thing to throw in to confuse opponents, but on the other hand I used the other special jumps/dodges more.
My fear (Or selfish worry) is that they'll nerf the canister gun, and I won't get the same satisfaction of one hit bio sludge frags. Seeing how the Bio Rifle has always been my favorite weapon ;) But I'll probably play it religiously even if that happens. From what Epic has leaked so far I think it should be enjoyable enough for all UT fans. Despite this however, I do think Axeman is right though. Someone somewhere is going to complain about something. You can't please everyone with anything though no matter what you do.

It won't be nessicary to get around maps anymore , running looks pretty quick in UT2k7 and dodging, wall dodge, double jumps are still in. Plus the Jumpboots are back.

[TheDeviot]

Yo Deviot Whats up fool: been a long time since Wicked Witch West huh!

I guess eternia is yours now?

Hey! Yeah, a few months, though I've been on Confused/DM lately. Regarding Eternia, I was about to secure the Power of Grayskull for myself after defeating He-Man with the Bio Rifle no less, but it was at that moment that several Do Gooders from He-Man.org subdued me with suppressive minigun fire. :o It was a bigger embarassment than that time Orko cost Skeletor the Ram Stone by using his switcheroo spell. I mean come on! Who wants to lose to the Trollans? :eek:

All esoteric kidding aside, good to hear from you.

[wickedsteve]

So then Online the game is only as spammy or hitscan dominant as your opponents?

To a much lesser degree. Online play is only as hard or easy as your opponents. Game style is somewhat different. Each player has their own style but within the game limitations.
If 2007 tends to be spammy or hitscan dominant, then it will be that way for all players. Opponents can only be as spammy as the game allows.

[ShredPrince]

Hey! Yeah, a few months, though I've been on Confused/DM lately. Regarding Eternia, I was about to secure the Power of Grayskull for myself after defeating He-Man with the Bio Rifle no less, but it was at that moment that several Do Gooders from He-Man.org subdued me with suppressive minigun fire. :o It was a bigger embarassment than that time Orko cost Skeletor the Ram Stone by using his switcheroo spell. I mean come on! Who wants to lose to the Trollans? :eek:

All esoteric kidding aside, good to hear from you.

ROFLMFAO!:D

[DeathByDribbling]

Spam fest...hehe, I dont think some of you have even played UT 99. Playing ut99 after ut2004 I was amazed at how easy it is to headshot people, I suspect good players could do that all day, however I do agree when ut99 was new and everyone had dialup and naff fps hitscan would have been hard.

Rose tinted glasses ftw.