UT Comp with UT7?

[iLL]

Would you like this game to ship with Comp as one of its mutators?

I would give up most of all the useless mutators UT4 came with for comp in a heartbeat.Comp rox and is widley used so it would make sense to me that Epic would hook us up with that instead of other useless mutators that offer nothing but an occasional smile ( bighead,vampire,slowcorpse,bonus combos,etc).They may take the lazy way out and just let the community modders finish their work though.

Personally I will play the game for a few months to enjoy the character skins,but after that I would be really wanting Comp back.

[intelpro]

Would you like this game to ship with Comp as one of its mutators?

I would give up most of all the useless mutators UT4 came with for comp in a heartbeat.Comp rox and is widley used so it would make sense to me that Epic would hook us up with that instead of other useless mutators that offer nothing but an occasional smile ( bighead,vampire,slowcorpse,bonus combos,etc).They may take the lazy way out and just let the community modders finish their work though.

Personally I will play the game for a few months to enjoy the character skins,but after that I would be really wanting Comp back.
What is comp

[Kharn]

If Epic learns from the last few games they could simply add a mutator/mod that can be turned on if wanted that includes things like hitsounds, skins and other tourny features that are used in pro play, so there is a standard version from the start that everyone can use if they want to.

[DaXx]

If Epic learns from the last few games they could simply add a mutator/mod that can be turned on if wanted that includes things like hitsounds, skins and other tourny features that are used in pro play, so there is a standard version from the start that everyone can use if they want to.

that would be fine, I hope they will do something like that

[sure]

utcomp is for the blind and deaf.

[Draco]

they really need to include a utcomp type of mod with 07, they always talk a game about "how there making the game for the pc croud" and "we will have a whole new clan thing to allow clans to easily see and play with eachother" yeah well TONS of clan compete in on line leagues so im sure they would much rather have some compition support from epic in the form of a utcomp style mod instead of any other "idea" epic might have.

compititon play within ut has been going on since 1998...and its almost 2007 and we have yet to see any support from epic for the people who play competitivly. and imo thats unexceptable, im sure they could write an awsome utcomp style mod for there game in no time at all. but it seems they have no intrest in it, rather they would write a "big head mod" which is utterly stupid and almost basicly ZERO server runs it, but look at the hundreds of servers that run utcomp... if not thousands when ut was at its prime...

some times with epic i get the feeling that they talk a big game, but never follow through. granted, u have to give them credit where credits due...there games are awsome, some of there maps are sweet, and i do enjoy there expansion packs...but for the love of god you have a whole compitition comunity that has always been there and is still alive and well, and is basicly the heart of the game and most of your loyal followers...but yet you seem to not do anything for them. *scratches my head*

[theteck]

i dont want utcomp to be added with a mutator

maybe server admin can select all this option in stuck game

an choose skin of hud for the server ?

[Tarball|UTzone]

I never needet UTcomp, it´s simply for the "blind" Players with skins Glowing all over the Map.

[Magwa]

When someone can convince me that it has any usefullness to it then i will listen...UT COMP was a bandaid to fix a game issue(hard to see players that looked tiny) Now 2007 is supposed to have tournament mode (like UT99) and the skin and player size is supposed to be fixed ,and the crosshairs are fully configurable in 2007 so why is any outside Mutator needed ..answer it is not NEEDED and i pray it is not made for this game ..it will be a sad day indeed if it is made and adopted to the ladders like in 2k3 and 2k4.

[MonsOlympus]

I voted it as a skin hax, although thats just one part of the whole mutator!

It adds some nice voting, stats and crosshair adjustment features that I think are 10x better than any bright skin or hitsound. Ive never liked hitsounds since they came about, painsounds are more than enough. As for brightskins, well they make friendly fire usless as everyone glows. Which kinda leads me to my next point, Im against any form of client side forcing, I think everyone in a match should be seeing and hearing things as close to the same as the graphics/sound options permit (ofcoarse there is differences based on hardware).

I would have to say this is another one of those things that turns the game more hitscan dominant and I dont think people realise because of the fact so many servers run it. I actually use this mutator offline as well so I can vote to change maps in Instant Action instead of forfiet and choosing a different one.

Id like to know what this mutator does that makes TDM and any other gamemode so much better than the stock. It just seems strange you would by a game with no hitsounds and brightskins, then not play it until the comp mutator is released for it :S

[Jake-SF]

For god sake, UT2007 is not even out and you have no idea (yes they can change how they look anytime between the last movie you see and the release of the game) how will they look and how easy or hard they will be to see. If needed UT Comp will be here or something similar but I really think they shouldn't put one with the game, UT Comp kills the atmosphere giving the sense of pure competition to everyone.

I do care and I dont like fighting bright floating popsicle making combo, thats how it looks anyway.

I simply won't play with them, all the pro and fun breaker will be around the UT comp server so I don't it to be here, UT Comp will simply tell me which server not to go.

[Boksha]

UTComp is a mutator that fixes problems in the game.
If the game had proper visibility, hit feedback, warmup and statistics tracking built in from the start, UTComp wouldn't be necessary. Nor would uncouth solutions like making skins a (nearly) solid colour or making a "dink" sound whenever you hit someone.
Don't get me wrong, UT2004 NEEDS these things to be playable, but that's a flaw in UT2k4's design. (mapdesign is a part of the problem as well; maps like DM-1on1-Crash and DM-DE-Grendelkeep are much worse when it comes to visibility than, say, DE-Ironic. Visiblity is a lot better in most ONS maps as well due to the way the maps are laid out)

[elmuerte]

UTcomp "fixes" things I don't think need fixing.

[da ghost]

For the UTComp haters out there, most are too stupid to realize that you can turn stuff off so that it's like it's not even there, so even if UTComp was a mandatory mutator for every server, I don't see what the problem is.

[Draco]

For the UTComp haters out there, most are too stupid to realize that you can turn stuff off so that it's like it's not even there, so even if UTComp was a mandatory mutator for every server, I don't see what the problem is.

i was going to say something along those lines as well LOL

[da ghost]

i was going to say something along those lines as well LOL
yesh, great minds think alike, don't they :cool: :p

[Molgan]

I don't care much about the bright skins and the hit sounds, have no problem with it but at the same time I can live without it. I never turn it of if the option is there thou. The enhanced net code on the other hand is more interesting. People have different opinions about it, and yes for low pingers it's useless. I have to play on high ping servers and net code helps a lot, so if I got to choose between smoothness or lag I pick the first, whatever down side to it people can come up with.

[Boksha]

For the UTComp haters out there, most are too stupid to realize that you can turn stuff off so that it's like it's not even there, so even if UTComp was a mandatory mutator for every server, I don't see what the problem is. Basically a non-argument. Turning brightskins (and to a lesser extent hitsounds) off clientside puts you at an incredibly obvious disadvantage against people that don't, so it's not a real option unless you can live with playing with a handicap.

[Jake-SF]

For the UTComp haters out there, most are too stupid to realize that you can turn stuff off so that it's like it's not even there, so even if UTComp was a mandatory mutator for every server, I don't see what the problem is.
Turning it off when everyone else got it on is like playing people with a brightskin hack : its not fair anymore. Because like it or not, it does help me, but I don't like it, so it doesnt help the experience and I get owned even more.

[os][ris]

Turning it off when everyone else got it on is like playing people with a brightskin hack : its not fair anymore. Because like it or not, it does help me, but I don't like it, so it doesnt help the experience and I get owned even more.


not fair? half the people in this thread said that they have no problems seeing the skins and that utcomp doesn't make it any better for them. so to me i dont see how it makes them disadvantaged if they dont use it. IF they do use it they aren't goin to play better anyways, according to them.

[JaFO]

For the UTComp haters out there, most are too stupid to realize that you can turn stuff off so that it's like it's not even there, so even if UTComp was a mandatory mutator for every server, I don't see what the problem is.
If you can disable everything in UTComp ... then what's the point of having it ? :p

UtComp doesn't fix anything.
What it really does is prevent players from evolving to the next level/new generation of fps-games.

Because if you thought you had problems with visibility in UT2kx then you won't be able to see a single player in UT2k7.
And there's a simple reason for that .... you lack practice and are going to be missing essential skills in high-detail environments.

In the real world people can visually id targets with far less info than the darkest default-skin in UT2kx-series.

One could even say that learning to id/spot players under these circumstances transfers to real-world survival skills in traffic and vice versa.

[Sero]

I just want clearly visible team-colors, where they're all just as visible, instead of some being so dark that you can't see them if they're standing still in front of a dark background.

I don't like brightskins, just the look of it, but I can imagine people felt it necessary in ut2k*, I just hope this won't be the case in ut2k7

[Boksha]

I hope you're joking Jafo.
Gave me a good laugh at least.

The differences between UT2004 and how we see stuff in real life are huge. For starters, in life we don't see many buildings constructed entirely out of plumbing with lights at eye height pointing in all directions and people jotting in and out of shadows that quickly. I could list a few other significant differences, but you should be able to figure that out yourself.

[sure]

JaFO got a point tho.
Players these days are so used to big fat pink neon glowing gorge that they will never be happy with normal red/blue skins.

[Boksha]

Aye, there's a good chance that when skins in UT2007 turn out to be perfectly visible, there will still be a lot of people that want solid colour skins, which I think is a bit sad.
But "evolving to the next level of FPS games"? That's just off. Especially considering how few players UT2004 has, I'd say it's hardly representative of anything. And like I've said before (not in this thread, mind), I have a lot less trouble spotting players in the WW2 games than I do in UT2004.

[Entil'Zha]

We may be used to the fat gorges, but I had problems with the standard colors, the epic teamcolors fixed it somewhat.

If UT2007 has clearly visible players we don't need brightskins, but UT2004 needs them, imho.

And the hitsounds are something I really got used to, so I know it's going to be hard at first with UT2007.

[Magwa]

If people want to use a UTcomp mutator i say fine BUT!!!! Not in ladder competition,because then it reduces the game to see me ,hit me, kill me ,with no atmosphere or fun factor,but for those that want that type of game i say fine but ladder play should be with the game as intended by the maker like Ut99 was...my vote is no but i do not think it is a skin hack it is just as i said earlier a band aid for a wound now healed..

[Gearbox]

As much as I like UTComp, the bright skins are just too much in vehicular gametypes like ONS, AS, VCTF, where stealth on foot has been practically eliminated. Because of this, vehicle vs. foot soldier confrontations are way less balanced than on pubs. Sure, you can turn them down, but when all your opponents are a) good players and b) have THEIR skin visibilty cranked to obtain the highest possible advantage, there's really no point in doing so.

On the other hand yeah I hope there's more consistency (and a little more brightness) with regards to player and team skins...... skins like Matrix in UT2k4 were the real problem IMO.

STEALTH IN GAMES WITH BIG VEHICLES FTW

[Molgan]

If people want to use a UTcomp mutator i say fine BUT!!!! Not in ladder competition,because then it reduces the game to see me ,hit me, kill me ,with no atmosphere or fun factor,but for those that want that type of game i say fine but ladder play should be with the game as intended by the maker like Ut99 was...my vote is no but i do not think it is a skin hack it is just as i said earlier a band aid for a wound now healed..
Thats kind of funny since UTComp was made for the competitive community and not the casual pubber. It allow people to play on equal terms, much more rewarding to beat an opponent in a fair way then shoot him in the back because his screen stinks.:) But if Epic do a good job on this game it will make this discussion pointless...

[Garcia y Vega]

This poll is severly lacking in options.... so I didn't vote.

There are pluses and negatives to UTComp. Good stuff includes meaningful stats, customizible hitsounds, customizible model, GOOD SKINS to name a few. And I'm talking about the BRIGHTER EPIC SKINS, which every one in this thread is conviently forgetting, not the neon ones. Actually the only thing that I dislike is the ability to have crazy neon skins and that garbage called newnet.

JaFo does make a good point about next gen games too. Players are easy to spot in UT99 because you saw any movement you could assume there was a player. In next-gen games there is a lot of extra fuff, trees blowing in the breeze, smoke, lights, random mechanical crap, water etc etc etc.. All the extra eye candy makes it harder to tell what movement is actually a player and part of the background. It takes a lot more knowledge of the map and character skins to instantly tell the difference and react with out thinking. I say if you can't see the skins in 2k* you are going to have a hell of a time in any new game that uses an even semi-realistic shading model...

[Selerox]

I'd rather the game didn't need something like TTM/UTComp in the first place.

Warm-up, full in-game setting voting system, and other things needed for competitive play. Hitsounds is a contentious issue, but personally I don't mind them. As for brightskins, I'd rather the game didn't need them in the firstplace.


If UT2007 has clearly visible players we don't need brightskins, but UT2004 needs them, imho.

I think that's part of the problem. UT200x had such awful skin clarity that it needed brightskins. UT99 never suffered from that problem. (Great name btw :)

[2th]

sorry but this thread is retarded. these forums arent really where you get the largest gathering of people who play these games in competition. So those people that do not play in comptetion are essentially talking for the sake of it. The name of the mutator says it all. UTComp...Unreal Tournament Competiton. It isnt UTPub. So why do people who dont play competively feel the need to post in this thread? It serves no purpose.

With that said i will clearly state what features of UTComp people seem to have left out that are incredibly useful and should have been implimented in the first palce but do not change gameplay for any side.
1) Enhanced Scoreboard. This thing is the sweetest. SHows average ping for teams and gives a better idea of how players are doing without hitting the f3 screen to know how many kills and eaths they have. Efficiency is a great stat.
2) Auto screenshot. If you say dont be lazy and just hit f9 then you can suck it my friend. sorry but not everyone wants to have to worry about capturing a screenshot every single time. there are even instances where you are so happy or so sad that you just arent focusing on hitting f9. So having something do it for you automatically is great. (sorry being a little vulgar but i like my auto screenshot!!!)
3) Auto demo rec. Screw epic i am not typing out "demorec name" every damn time i want a demo. UTComp does it all for me and organizes the demos perfectly. That alone is enough for me to say give me UTCOMP for UT2007.


Now as far at brightskins and hitsounds. Brightskins level the playing field. you dont have to like it but there are people out there who dont have the best systems or monitors so we cant play at hi resolutions on a 30inch screen. So having a little neon character makes it easier for people without all the cash and nice systems to play against those high end gamers. Hitsounds have less of an impact but knowing how much damage you do to a person based soley on the pitch of a sound is wonderful.

AGAIN THIS THREAD IS BAD AND PEOPLE POSTING IN IT ARE BAD. UTCOMP IS FOR COMPETITION. EPIC DOES NOT MAKE GAMES FOR COMPETITION. UTCOMP FOR UT2007 WILL BE MADE IN SOME FORM IF THE COMPETITIVE COMMUNITIES WANT IT SO STOP WHINING ABOUT HATING UTCOMP ON THESE FORUMS. ESPECIALLY IF YOU DONT PLAY IN COMPETITION!

[Piglet]

If Epic doesn't provide one then someone in the community will write it. Given that, what's the incentive for Epic to do it?

[da ghost]

sorry but this thread is retarded. these forums arent really where you get the largest gathering of people who play these games in competition. So those people that do not play in comptetion are essentially talking for the sake of it. The name of the mutator says it all. UTComp...Unreal Tournament Competiton. It isnt UTPub. So why do people who dont play competively feel the need to post in this thread? It serves no purpose.

With that said i will clearly state what features of UTComp people seem to have left out that are incredibly useful and should have been implimented in the first palce but do not change gameplay for any side.
1) Enhanced Scoreboard. This thing is the sweetest. SHows average ping for teams and gives a better idea of how players are doing without hitting the f3 screen to know how many kills and eaths they have. Efficiency is a great stat.
2) Auto screenshot. If you say dont be lazy and just hit f9 then you can suck it my friend. sorry but not everyone wants to have to worry about capturing a screenshot every single time. there are even instances where you are so happy or so sad that you just arent focusing on hitting f9. So having something do it for you automatically is great. (sorry being a little vulgar but i like my auto screenshot!!!)
3) Auto demo rec. Screw epic i am not typing out "demorec name" every damn time i want a demo. UTComp does it all for me and organizes the demos perfectly. That alone is enough for me to say give me UTCOMP for UT2007.


Now as far at brightskins and hitsounds. Brightskins level the playing field. you dont have to like it but there are people out there who dont have the best systems or monitors so we cant play at hi resolutions on a 30inch screen. So having a little neon character makes it easier for people without all the cash and nice systems to play against those high end gamers. Hitsounds have less of an impact but knowing how much damage you do to a person based soley on the pitch of a sound is wonderful.

AGAIN THIS THREAD IS BAD AND PEOPLE POSTING IN IT ARE BAD. UTCOMP IS FOR COMPETITION. EPIC DOES NOT MAKE GAMES FOR COMPETITION. UTCOMP FOR UT2007 WILL BE MADE IN SOME FORM IF THE COMPETITIVE COMMUNITIES WANT IT SO STOP WHINING ABOUT HATING UTCOMP ON THESE FORUMS. ESPECIALLY IF YOU DONT PLAY IN COMPETITION!

yeah i think that sweettooth jjust owned this thread

[Sero]

lots

Your opinion in not the ultimate truth, and people are allowed to discuss their views.

I dislike pubs and prefer to stick to clanmatches/pickups, and I do not care for UTComp at all. I dislike the ugly scoreboard, I dislike what it does with skins, I dislike the hitsounds and I do not like the 'netcode' stuff.. what I like the least, before someone brings that up again, is having to bother with turning off a mutator that I don't want when it requires any more effort than "turn everything off".

Lots of skins in ut2k4 are easy enough to see, so it's not at all impossible to make sure that all the skins are clear and visible.

That's my view on the matter.

[Lotus]

I created UTComp, so I have a little different opinion on the subject =P

First, let me say that while the name is UTComp, and indeed it was originally targeted to a very limited audience, its focus changed very early and is NOT a competitive-only mutator.

UTComp is no different than any other mutator... It is not special in any way, but is merely a collection of changes that many would create nonetheless. Its main goal has been to allow people to do what they want, easily, and on any server. That includes voting to turn off its own additions (brightskins, hitsounds etc).

It is sort of an interesting commentary on the state of things to note that an optional feature of an optional mutator gets so much hate, despite being easily disabable by a majority vote on most servers. Enough for people to define it by its presence.

So, I guess in conclusion. I would love to see a mutator made (by a third party) like UTComp, in that it unifies a lot of small, but meaningful, changes for cohesion. However, I don't want to see brightskins return in their previous form... and I hope that the community at large can hold themselves from creating them.

[2th]

I created UTComp, so I have a little different opinion on the subject =P

First, let me say that while the name is UTComp, and indeed it was originally targeted to a very limited audience, its focus changed very early and is NOT a competitive-only mutator.

UTComp is no different than any other mutator... It is not special in any way, but is merely a collection of changes that many would create nonetheless. Its main goal has been to allow people to do what they want, easily, and on any server. That includes voting to turn off its own additions (brightskins, hitsounds etc).

It is sort of an interesting commentary on the state of things to note that an optional feature of an optional mutator gets so much hate, despite being easily disabable by a majority vote on most servers. Enough for people to define it by its presence.

So, I guess in conclusion. I would love to see a mutator made (by a third party) like UTComp, in that it unifies a lot of small, but meaningful, changes for cohesion. However, I don't want to see brightskins return in their previous form... and I hope that the community at large can hold themselves from creating them.


lotus wins.

[=XM=]

I don't think it is wise to rely on Epic for important mutators.
Imagine if there had never been safegame or atcc and we had to rely on UTSecure(wtf does it secure, again?) to filter cheaters or on Master Server cd-key bans instead of UTAN.

Similarly it is not wise to expect Epic to make a good fix mutator if they released the vanilla version of the game without those fixes and think it is fine. If the skins are as visible as in UT, I'll be happy. But if they are like in UT2004... Unfortunately there is no real option between either the default skins or the over-bright neon ones. The Epic Style Brightskins are good enough on many maps however. Hopefully we won't need it this time. The hitsounds also give more feedback than the weak default ones where the chracter cries out or something. The netcode I can't comment on since it isn't used much in Europe. My limited experience with it has been rather negative. Warm up mode and the other options(auto screen cap, proper stats) of the mutator are also very useful/required.

Seeing how stock maps (which are the most widely played) can affect the game, I would not want an unmaintained fix/comp mutator out of the box. Let them concentrate on fixing bugs/exploits that don't get fixed by community mutators quickly and leave the comp mutator to a third party.

[JoystickMonkey]

I doubt they'd add UTComp to their mutators, but they may include brightskins/hitsounds, etc.
If you think it's for the blind, then you've never played high speed insta. I agree though brightskins have no place in ONS or reg grav.
Hitsounds can be useful in a TAM setting, as they allow you to guess how much damage you give your opponent, and they are very welcome in insta, due to the already artificial feel of the gametype.
It really just depends on the gametype you're playing. I will say this though, UTComp definitely is useful sometimes.
As to whether or not it should be included in 07? I don't think it should, as its purpose is to fill in the gaps that Epic left out. No matter how much comp stuff they put in, they simply can't do enough playtesting to really know what the community wants in competetive play. I'm glad UTcomp's around, and although it can be useless, in my game style (lgi, 1.37 speed, infinite walldodge) it's incredibly useful and very appropriate.

[Gearbox]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE tell me Epic has paid whatever it takes to hire Lotus.

Programming genious, top-tier player, and an excellent, realistic thinker....... and all this has been accomplished for a single video game in his spare time? :eek:

[ShredPrince]

I thought Wormbo made UTcomp..??

The hitsounds are'nt sooooo bad as maybe a mutator.

IF you need comp to feel comfortable: you suck at the game.Making characters pink and crap is not how it was meant to be.

I got this life size ppicture of this new engine with millions of polys, and pink skins running around on it...LOL

[iLL]

I had no idea so many were on different sides of the fence for comp and with such passion as well.

To recap things mentioned already that were good points imo.

Comp is mutator and most mutators and or mods can be adjusted server and clientside so if the game did come with comp whats the harm in it if those that like it get it and those that do not can disable it.It would not take much money or time for them to offer the features that comp does anyway.

Also I believe it was Lotus who made a comment about comp balancing things out a little more for those who do not have a multi-thousand dollar rig or a 30 inch widescreen which is a good thing.

Another good point made by someone which I agree and hope for is if the game is done right there will be no need for comp.

I just thought that instead of spending time on the type of mutators that UT4came with (boring) it would be more reasonable to give us a mutator that we already know would most likely be widely accepted and used with the ability to keep anti comp players happy as well.

Just because most of us do not play fame and fortune does not mean we would not enjoy a "competitive" mutator.

Above all else I pray that Epic tries to prevent cheating as much as they will try to prevent pirating.Insufficient hack protection and something like Starforce is pretty much the only things I forsee that have a shot at keeping me and many others from buying and enjoying the game.Everything else is pretty much just minor preferences imo.

Thanks for the input all

[2th]

iLL you are thinking of my post. Im the one that made the comparison of high end rigs. It is very important to me since i dont have the best still and have a very small monitor (14inch lcd :( ) . I am also primarily an ONS player and saying brightskins dont beling in ONS like JoystickMonkey said is just plain wrong. Try playing primeval without brigh skins and trying to hit peole at a distance. my bad rig puts me at such a disadvantage because i cant see people at a distance. However with bright skins i see little glowing green dots so i have some idea where to aim. So brightskins do belong in ONS as much as anything else.


Edit: Lotus i beg you to make a UTcomp for 07. Among all the communities i can promise you ther are enough people willing to give you a hand so that the coding process shouldnt be all that bad.

[A_Spec]

YAY! Brightskins war 2.0! ^_^

[Garcia y Vega]

ST-

I don't get your whole high end rig = better visibility thing... It doesn't make sense to me. Here's why.. Before I upgraded my computer, I played with the lowest settings possible with only 800x600 resolution. Since everything was turned off, it was EASY as hell to see any stock skin in any stock map. I never played UTComp servers (FFA DM FTW baby), so I was never used to any sort of bright skin. After I got some money and upgraded my system (it owns now) I play with "Holy Sh!t" settings at 1280x1024 resolution. Lemmie tell you, it is a WHOLE lot harder to see the stock skins with all the eye candy on. IDK about you, but when I invest money in to a high performance computer I want to have all the extra's on, and I think many others who have spent money on good systems will say the same.

So I guess from my personal expierence with ultra low end vs high end machines and visibility, I say it is MUCH easier to see the stock skins with low settings than high. I really don't see how the opposite would ever be true..

[Gearbox]

I am also primarily an ONS player and saying brightskins dont beling in ONS like JoystickMonkey said is just plain wrong. Try playing primeval without brigh skins and trying to hit peole at a distance. my bad rig puts me at such a disadvantage because i cant see people at a distance. However with bright skins i see little glowing green dots so i have some idea where to aim. So brightskins do belong in ONS as much as anything else.

Hmmmmmm, ground-based warfare in a forest setting versus tanks, mantas and long-range hitscan.......... ever consider that camoflauge and stealth for foot soldiers could --nay, should --play a role on this map?!?! OPEN YOUR MIND MAN!!!!!!!!!!

IMO neon brightskins are less suitable for ONS and VCTF than on-foot only gametypes..... the balance with skins favours vehicles more and makes that guy hiding behind a rock 300 ft away a much easier target than he should be.



Edit: Lotus i beg you to make a UTcomp for 07. Among all the communities i can promise you ther are enough people willing to give you a hand so that the coding process shouldnt be all that bad.
YOU HAVEN'T EVEN PLAYED THE GAME YET!!!!!!!! The best case scenario would be not needing UTComp, making the pub and competitive games very close to being the same format.


Epic: Again, if you haven't already..... PLZ HIRE LOTUS --even if it's only to be the player in your demo movies ;)

[Boksha]

Garcia y Vega: two things; with a high end PC you can set character LOD to the highest setting (prevents characters from "thinning out" at a distance)
Also I get the idea SweetTooth was mostly talking about having a big fat monitor, which really does help seeing opponents.

[Molgan]

Hmmmmmm, ground-based warfare in a forest setting versus tanks, mantas and long-range hitscan.......... ever consider that camoflauge and stealth for foot soldiers could --nay, should --play a role on this map?!?! OPEN YOUR MIND MAN!!!!!!!!!!
Stealth and sneaking has nothing to do with UT, it is a fast and furious in-your-face kind of game imo. If you want to sneak there are gazillions of other titles out there for you.

[2th]

Garcia y Vega: two things; with a high end PC you can set character LOD to the highest setting (prevents characters from "thinning out" at a distance)
Also I get the idea SweetTooth was mostly talking about having a big fat monitor, which really does help seeing opponents.

I have played on both large monitors and my current little LCD. The massive 24inch CRT was freaking sweet and i could see so much more at a higher resolution. Now compared to my LCD i would rather have the massive CRT in a heartbeat. I know there are plenty of people who are limited to smaller monitors but still want to compete. So bright skins help me immensely.


Stealth and sneaking has nothing to do with UT, it is a fast and furious in-your-face kind of game imo. If you want to sneak there are gazillions of other titles out there for you.

game. set. match. Molgan wins.

Plus if anyone thinks sneaking around is oh so important in ONS then you really havent played in competition. Sure it has its momements but considering the action takes place in vehicles for the large part i dont think stealth is even able to be considered. The cicada is a flying barn and the goliath is a floating box and do i even have to talk abou the leviathan? So gearbox go back to whatever pub you came from. Better yet go play some splinter cell if you want stealth.

Oh and Lotus should make UTcomp for 07 because i can bet right now the options he has like the voting and auto demo/screenshot features wont be built into 07 by epic.

[MonsOlympus]

Hmmz, I would think that the people who play on lower end systems would just put up with so called problems with visibility! As anyone can use the brightskins it makes it the same balance wise with the higher end still being able to see much better even with the glow.

I really think the fact brightskins promote hitscan dominance more should be discussed as noone seems to care. They are all for in your face fast paced action and are more than willing to say so when defending brightskins but always fail to mention that it helps to see an enemy at a greater distance, upclose it makes little to no difference unless your gamma and brightness are skrewed. Hitsounds do very similar with being able to tell if you hit an enemy or not from a large distance, depending on LOS in some cases.

Plenty has already been said about identifying targets etc, but Im of the opinion avoiding a firefight can be just as viable a tactic as rushing into one. Players shouldnt be limited to sticking to a bam, bam, bam formula! They should be able to "choose" what they want to do and how they play instead of having to use certain moves or weapons to be competative.

I also dont get where people come off saying these features are purely for pro's or competative gamers. I mean if a player cant play well with the game in out of the box form something is drastically wrong. Features like this help to unify the shooter category into one big glob just like people do with tac shooters, this would be totally going against the more artistic and better defined feel that epic has been slowly building for the ut franchise. There are plenty of free engines people could use to knock up a comp fps shooter to please all these players with the assets being very minimal like 1 character model, the abscence of fp weapon models, no AI and single player ladders etc

I enjoy the franchise for its defining features not its uniformity with other competativly played games. This is not to say utcomp doesnt have some useful features (as I said before). Its just Id like people appreciate the work that goes into any game in a competative state, without always turning so quickly to third party additions.

Perhaps not everyone agree's with me but this is my opinion, I never expect anyone to listen to me or take my feedback into account. All I can hope is people read what I say and take an objective approach instead of being so quick to defend something, they dont even know themselves, works. Just because a feature works well in one game or another doesnt mean it works well in all of them, too often we see this now days in games, with companies ofcoarse taking inspiration from other games but not really knowing the reason why it works in that particular game. We end up with tired formula's for a quickly evolving industry who's critics are so quick to judge, chuck me in the pile I dunno, when does it end ;)

[ShredPrince]

`I agree, I think hitscan dominace is total BULL$#it!!!!

"Hitscan Dominance" as it's called is a by product of UTcomp/bright skins.

I don't think "hitscan dominant" even applies in most cases without UTcomp in the equation.

I always hear that crap.So what do yuo want :Spam dominnant?????

I'll never understand that one, only that people like to make games esier for themselves to play, and then call it "pro".

IMO hitscan dominance is a product of being a good player.IF your good with the LG, and shock, chances are your going to dominate.
They are harder to use thatn the spamming weapons, thus the rewards should be greater, as they are.IF you can't ahndel it, go get a game with auto aim.

[zeitgeber]

all features of current UTCOMP + toned down UTCOMP bright skins. epic should hire lotus. newnet ftw

[Gearbox]

Plus if anyone thinks sneaking around is oh so important in ONS then you really havent played in competition. Sure it has its momements but considering the action takes place in vehicles for the large part i dont think stealth is even able to be considered. The cicada is a flying barn and the goliath is a floating box and do i even have to talk abou the leviathan? So gearbox go back to whatever pub you came from. Better yet go play some splinter cell if you want stealth.

THE POINT IS THAT EXISTING BRIGHTSKINS PREVENT MANY INTERESTING OPTIONS IN COMPETITIVE ONS. And.... it's no use trying to reason with you anyway, why bother?

Yes I've played plenty of competition and also read enough at Onscentral.com to know you're clearly the resident laughing stock. This is probably because a) your views are incredibly limited, even offensive to fellow players. Anti-progression ftl. And b) you repeatedly self-pwn yourself even when making consecutive arguements. This is funny stuff.

Whatever your interpretation of my use of the word "stealth" is, my arguement stands that ONS/VCTF retains a better balance between foot soldiers and vehicles without teh glowing brightskins. Not that I'm against implementing cleaner, brighter teamskins from the default.

[YARRR]

IF you need comp to feel comfortable: you suck at the game.



avast!

i hope ye challenge a pro and get demolished 200-0

[2th]

THE POINT IS THAT EXISTING BRIGHTSKINS PREVENT MANY INTERESTING OPTIONS IN COMPETITIVE ONS. And.... it's no use trying to reason with you anyway, why bother?

Yes I've played plenty of competition and also read enough at Onscentral.com to know you're clearly the resident laughing stock. This is probably because a) your views are incredibly limited and ignorant, even offensive to fellow players. Anti-progression ftl. And b) you repeatedly self-pwn yourself even when making consecutive arguements. This is funny stuff.

Whatever your interpretation of my use of the word "stealth" is, my arguement stands that ONS/VCTF retains a better balance between foot soldiers and vehicles without teh glowing brightskins. Not that I'm against implementing cleaner, brighter teamskins from the default.


rofl. you make me laugh. you are delusional thinking that stealth has much to do with ONS. Get the idea of foot/vehicle balance out of your head for competitive ONS. Comp ONS is vehicle heavy save for maps like prime and frost to some extent. there is no "balance" in the equal sense of the word. ONS is 75% vehicles 25% foot (im using hyperbole to get the point across gearbox if you can understand that then good). with such a statement and the idea that you are in large vehicles the majority of the time then how are bright skins any different from said large vehicles? both make you very visible.

Long story short: you lack experience in competition obviously and dont understand UTComp = competition but also has things that should have been incorporated into the game from the start. So stop the discussion because it is pointless. ultimately what you or i have to say on the subject is irrelevent because if someone wants to code brightskins for 2k7 then they will. i will use them and you dont have to. plain and simple. oh and if you arent in the competitive community then you wont be part of the say on using them. i however am for ONS and will be one of the voices wanting it to be used.

[Apathy]

LMAO! Take the "lazy way out"? UTcomp bastardizes mostly all gametypes but DM. I seriously hope UTcrap is forgotten about.
From the looks of the videos, even though the newest is crap quality, you can tell that models actually look larger. You can also clearly see that pieces of the characters armor actually glows.. If that's not enough, they blink when they're getting shot.

In most any other game type that requires an object other then killing eachother, birghtskins does nothing more than hurt it. Can't hide with a flag, or sneak around to get to an objective when you look like a damn glow stick.

Some maps are DESIGNED for stealth, and that doesn't happen when you have UTcomp sh!tting all over it.

Saying "Just turn off the bright skins, and stop whining"
Me turning off the brightskins does nothing but hurt me when there is someone across the map that I'm actually not supposed to see, but they can see me just fine.
Unreal Tournament was just fine without all this garbage in it.
UT2004 had to up the map scaling to fit the movement which made everyone seem smaller, and harder to see. They take out the dodge jump (and I wouldn't mind seeing double jump gone), and there is no need to make a map twice the size it has to be.
What's left of UT2004 isn't but the hardcore fans.
The whining about what's being changed now is NOTHING compared to the whining that was going on when UT2003 to came out.
I'd rather lose some of the UT2004 players, and gain a bunch of the UT players back, then have it how it is now.

[Apathy]

avast!

i hope ye challenge a pro and get demolished 200-0
I have yet to really challange anyone to anything, but if I were to play, it would be without UTcomp. Chances are, the "pro" wouldn't play, because he doesn't have his glow in the dark skins.

[Scylla]

I have yet to really challange anyone to anything, but if I were to play, it would be without UTcomp. Chances are, the "pro" wouldn't play, because he doesn't have his glow in the dark skins.

If he was any good he would probably force default so he would easily see you anyway.

[blackout]

utcomp simply takes ut to another level - an abstract one. for "a bit more serious" players, the glowskins, statistics and all the other little helpers are a great thing.
sure, for a player that is only playing public it doesn't really matter whether he sees an arm standing out behind a corner 500ms later. he either kills the enemy now or... whatever.
...in a league match, that arm glows like a burning christmas tree, you can't overlook it. and 500ms advantage is a lot.


on your question: yes, i'd like having a utcomp in 2k7, but not by epic but by the community. they know way better what the real player wants, and every suggestion is actually read in their own forums and implemented within hours - and not until the next patch, which is released about every month.

[=XM=]

Brightskins are to resolve bad visibility of many skins on several maps. While I would never play a UT2004 TDM match without UTComp, I would also never use UTComp in an ONS match unless for some strange reason it becomes compulsory. In the EU only very rarely has UTComp been used in ONS and has never been a requirement of any league, cup or ladder afaik.

I would also like to note that the NA ONS players were slow to use No Superweapons, make other such sensible rule changes to their ladders and I don't know if they even use ECE vehicles yet (I do agree that the SPMA is an abomination). Also, they created things like ONSComp (inability to address the fact that map/link design of stock and early custom ONS maps is a major issue and going the gimmick way to solve a simple problem) . Not a criticism, just to point out a certain difference in mindset and that no one speaks for all the community. Comments like "you are delusional thinking that stealth has much to do with ONS" point out why some of those NA ONS players are completely at odds with how the game is/was played in the EU.

Solving visibility problems != Removing stealth options and legitimate low visibility at long distance.

Newnet is also not widely used in the EU, but is more used in NA for obvious reasons. While general options like newnet, warmup mode, auto-demo, auto-screenshot, proper scoreborad/stats, etc... are welcomed in all modes, others aren't. Brightskins and hitsounds are essential imo to a good 1v1 or TDM experience (forcedefault and unlit skins aren't enough on some maps). Maybe also to a much lesser degree in CTF, especially iCTF. But it is inacceptable in ONS and AS.

[Boksha]

utcomp simply takes ut to another level - an abstract one. Which isn't necessarily a good thing tbh.

[DrDoomed]

UT comp is all good

ppl that dont like it can always turn off most of the features client side.

[Gearbox]

Ya, NA competitive UT players are very slow to accept change across the board, but dear God PLEASE don't assume that ST represents the average NA competitive ONS player. With a couple exceptions it's a really nice community.

I love UTComp.... but brightskins in ONS/VCTF imo should be toned down to achieve a better balance.

Enough repeating myself... on to other things :cool:

[Apathy]

UT comp is all good

ppl that dont like it can always turn off most of the features client side.
You didn't read anything I said. Love people that just post, without reading what is said.

[jsr]

Speaking about the pros and the cons of UTComp, everyone here seems to forget about *really* important thing. The thing is how exactly UTComp works. First, Epic guys will NEVER add UTComp in it's present state to any of their games. At least, I hope so. Simply because UTComp bases on totally wrong approach to game modification. UTComp (and TTM as well) is simply incompatible with the mods that make use of radical gametype customisation - overriding default PlayerController class is good example. The reason is that UTComp just works the same way. Yeah, with this "mutator" you get whole new classes for PlayerController, weapons and damage types (dear God, any other ideas how to track weapon stats?), HUD (ever tried Invasion + UTComp? No? Then try it out!) and Lotus only knows which else. Oh, how could I forget?! The gametypes themselves seemed to be screwed up (warm-up phase addition was the main reason). Not sure about latest versions, but my suggestions definetely applies to quite old ones, around 1.3. All right, if I were "pro", I could give up trying out that "insignificant and miserable" mods and conversions which refuse to work with UTComp. But "here goes another neigborhood"! You've been noticing many times how UTComp degrades your framerate, haven't you? Oh, yeah, people it really does... It is said that UTComp was originally based on portions of TTM2003 source code. I've seen that sources. Mamma mia! How do you like 4 or 5 pages of heavy code inside Tick() (don't remember in which class exactly, forgive me)? When you think about playing ONS with UTComp enabled, why don't you recall that horrible 40 - 60 fps regardless of settings? Do you care about performance at all, huh? So what would you expect from a set "Conquest + UTComp2007 /*if any*/"? An impressive slide-show under your discrete control? No, thanks...

What is this flaming for? Of course, not to offend Lotus, no. Anyway, with all my negative relations to UTComp, I can't imagine my UT2004 expirience without it. I'm addicted to it. And remember, when all dinosaurs died and pakman's interest to his project "TTM" silently faded out, only UTComp had arised to help us with our competitive demands. And I'm strongly impressed by their enchanced netcode, not as a feature, but as a beautiful and brave, yet a bit disappointing idea (such critical modifications are too heavy for UnrealScript VM and more suitable for low-level engine netcode, but UTComp developers tried to do their best, that's for sure). But I don't want a next-generation competitive mod to be implemented the way UTComp was, and that's why - and not because of brightskins, although I hate them - I voted "NO".

While some people want Epic Games to include some 3rd party competitive mod/addon in their game or even write their own (Epic's) one, I wish Epic guys not to do both things. The community will release such a mod anyway, and people at Epic should better focus on game development itself, rather than doing somebody's else job.

[DrDoomed]

You didn't read anything I said. Love people that just post, without reading what is said.

ur not the thread starter why should ur post matter :P ;)

[os][ris]

I have yet to really challange anyone to anything, but if I were to play, it would be without UTcomp. Chances are, the "pro" wouldn't play, because he doesn't have his glow in the dark skins.


if someone is used to playing that way, they aren't going to turn it off to prove some idiotic point. The fact is if there wasn't a lighting issue with the game we wouldn't be here arguing about a feature that is OPTIONAL. If you dont like it turn it off. If you feel like your at a disadvantage when you have it turned off then turn it on. But then you'd be using something you swore you wouldn't use :rolleyes:. I've never had ths problem in UT on any of the maps, and some of them were pretty dark. At NORMAL gamma and brightness levels in 2k4/3 it was EXTREMELY hard to see skins. I forget the name but there is one Robot character that is almost impossible to see at medium distance.

From the video the skins look clearly visible. The addition of HDR lighting should help also. I really dont see a need for bkins in this game and i somene does have this option enabled i do not htink they will have a significant advantage over someone who has the option turned off.

No offense to Lotus because utcomp is great, i'm a c++ programmer for ibm and i wouldn't know where to start in creating something like that. But i dont see a need in hiring him for what he did in utcomp. I'm sure Epic developers are capable of doing what he did.

[2th]

Ya, NA competitive UT players are very slow to accept change across the board, but dear God PLEASE don't assume that ST represents the average NA competitive ONS player. With a couple exceptions it's a really nice community.

I love UTComp.... but brightskins in ONS/VCTF imo should be toned down to achieve a better balance.

Enough repeating myself... on to other things :cool:

ROFL! you obviously dont know the opinions of other ONS players. the majority seem to like brightskins and hitsounds. but then again i repeat you dont seem to compete so you really dont know what you are talking about. playing with people and talking to them on xfire, vent, teamspeak and such > silly forums posts.

[Gearbox]

Posting to get another blathering response.

Or the last word shall be MINE MINE MINE!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Malkav]

There is no problem with utcomp, a lot of competitive and non competitive servers are using this mutator, in Team Warfare League, clan servers, pubs (competitive and non competitive). Actually I think it must be mandatory mutator for every ut2007 server, think about all the benefits, enhanced netcode for example, brightskins (if you don't like it just turn it off), name colors, sounds, auto screenshot, auto demo recording, a lot of good stuff

[Boksha]

Netcode (i.e. code that makes it work online :p), warmup, auto screenshot and autodemorec should be in the game by default.
Enhanced netcode as it is in UT2k4, I'd rather not have. Brightskins and hitsounds shouldn't be necessary, and if they're not necessary they shouldn't be in the game.
And like said before, just because "you can turn them off" doesn't mean brightskins don't change the game. Even if you turn them off, your enemies still have them.

[Adhesion]

From the latest trailer, I'd say the skins are adequately viewable.

Most of the features UTComp has should already be pre-built into UT on launch IMO. It'll be quite a shame if it isnt.

[Malkav]

And like said before, just because "you can turn them off" doesn't mean brightskins don't change the game. Even if you turn them off, your enemies still have them.

Yes, you are right, but then everybody has this brightskins "advantage", I don't know where is the advantage here, it's the same thing, this option don't change the whole game in my opinion

[Draco]

yeah i also dont see where the advantage of bight skins are comming in, if everyone has the ablitiy to change the player skins to what ever they want, then everyone is on level playing ground. if u so choose to make your charecter stock colors, thats your choice, just like its your choice to make the other charecters all black so its very hard to see them. YOUR choosing to put ur self at what ever disatvantage u want, but everyone starts at the same playing fieild YOUR chooseing not to be where everyone else is.

and i personaly love bright skins, SOME im not saying all skins are very hard to see in 04, bright skins fixes that and makes it easy to see everyone. and sure u can be like "force skins is 1337!!!!" but no i dont like to force skins, i like to have everyone dif skins, mix it up a bit, and pluss it helps when playing tam or what ever other game type because u know how much u hit some one just by there skin without having to read there name, so u can roughly calculate how much they have left, with force skins u cant, unless u read ever name on ever person, and the names dont always pop up.

[Xyx]

Oh please no! If I want to shoot ghey pink glowsticks that make funny sounds when hit, I'll go play... uhm... well... I guess there's a reason no game is ever released with that kind of stuff built in.

I'm sure UTComp does loads of good besides these atrocious aesthetic crimes, but I can't get past them.

[fuegerstef]

Oh please no! If I want to shoot ghey pink glowsticks that make funny sounds when hit, I'll go play... uhm... well... I guess there's a reason no game is ever released with that kind of stuff built in.

Err, actually there are games released with it.

I agree that it turns off the casual gamer and I don't like them glowstick too... ...probably the reason why these games aren't that succesful... ...but I clearly remeber the discussion when Painkiller replaced UT2004 at the Cybergames. (Money from the devs/Publisher was the reason for it though).

[icewind]

Err, actually there are games released with it.

I agree that it turns off the casual gamer and I don't like them glowstick too... ...probably the reason why these games aren't that succesful...
Are you saying TTM/UTComp is the reason UT2003/4 weren't succesful? :eek:

[fuegerstef]

Are you saying TTM/UTComp is the reason UT2003/4 weren't succesful? :eek:

No, I was talking about the games that had glowskins in retail.

[Blackhearted]

I'd love to see UTComp included. since we all know epic wont make the damn skins any brighter than 2k4. i just hope (the eventual release of) utcomp2k7 doesnt include the "enhanced" netcode. mainly cause the flaws in the real netcode dont need amplified again.

[hybrid]

I see all of you agree with including all stuff from utcomp except enchanced netcode but there is one thing in lotus's netcode which should be really included by default.
I am talking about replication of rotation in method serverstartfire because it will reduce random spread of instant precision weapon like shock or sniper

[fuegerstef]

I am disagreeing with glowskins too, if we have visible skins in retail.

[Boksha]

I am talking about replication of rotation in method serverstartfire because it will reduce random spread of instant precision weapon like shock or sniper Agreed.
It's kind of silly this isn't already in in UT2k4 by default.


yeah i also dont see where the advantage of bight skins are comming in, if everyone has the ablitiy to change the player skins to what ever they want, then everyone is on level playing ground. if u so choose to make your charecter stock colors, thats your choice, just like its your choice to make the other charecters all black so its very hard to see them. YOUR choosing to put ur self at what ever disatvantage u want, but everyone starts at the same playing fieild YOUR chooseing not to be where everyone else is. How completely irrelevant.
By your logic, everybody would be at level playing field if there was a built-in aimbot function that could be turned off. Sure, you CHOOSE to turn it off yourself, so it's a level playing field, but what good does that do if it makes the game total crap?
Get in touch with reality instead of circling in abstract nonsense, tbh.
The bottomline is that deciding to play without brightskins because you don't like how they look means you have a disadvantage. So if you choose to not use them, you have a disadvantage, if you choose to use them the game is less fun because it looks like crap. You lose in both cases, compared to a brightskin-free game.

In other words "Stop whining, you can turn them off if you don't like them." is NOT a valid argument against people that want brightskins out of the game entirely and for everyone.

[sphinx]

*lets make an ass of myself and vote "its a skinhack" on a serverside mod!*

really... thats what the majority of people in this thread must have thought, and... it striked them as logical....

~edit: whoohoo! you can say ass on this forum \o/

[Boksha]

Actually it totally depends on what you call a "hack". Usually when talking about games, the words "hack" and "cheat" mean the same, but in programming terms a "hack" is an ugly fix for a problem that shouldn't have been there in the first place. So in that sense the brightskins are most certainly a "hack". Agreed, it's still silly to vote for it in this context. :p

[icewind]

Actually it totally depends on what you call a "hack". Usually when talking about games, the words "hack" and "cheat" mean the same, but in programming terms a "hack" is an ugly fix for a problem that shouldn't have been there in the first place. So in that sense the brightskins are most certainly a "hack". Agreed, it's still silly to vote for it in this context. :p
It would only constitute as a hack if modding in UT2004 were not intended by Epic (ie. if they did not intend for people to mod the game). However, they did, and as such UTComp is just a mod like any other, except for the fact that it is required for competitive play. The fact that so many people here voted "skin hack" says a lot about these forums, and it also says that Epic should be careful about getting their "community suggestions" only from this forum...

[The5thviruz]

Judging by the one and only video Epic has released, to me, players are quite easy to see, sans the red crap on the hud when you get shot (wtf is that all about????). If they would hurry up with a demo people could test the player skins for themselves. And for the LOVE OF GOD EPIC please, please, please do not screw up the skins like in UT2004.

[Boksha]

It would only constitute as a hack if modding in UT2004 were not intended by Epic I don't follow you here at all. :confused:
Like I said, in programming terms, the word 'hack' is often used for a "cork in the hole" solution. Rather than modify the original code to really fix the problem at it's core, you layer more (often ugly) code on top of it to get around the problem.
Compare with UTComp: the problem it fixes is that some skins are darker than others, and in many situations the skins are too hard to see alltogether.
Fixing the problem at it's core would be to redesign the skins so that they're all evenly visible, remove fog and clutter from the maps, dim the weapon effects a bit perhaps and rewrite the lighting engine to prevent skins from going completely dark even in situations they should be light.
Instead, UTComp is mod that adds extra code to, through a detour, add a glow that a lot of people consider ugly and isn't even compatible with a lot of other mods, and breaks things like skin effects (like people lighting up blue when you hit them with the LG)
A mod that's not compatible with other mods? An extra layer on all skins that breaks existing skin effects? Definitly sounds like a "cork in the hole" solution to me.
At any rate UTComp is definitly NOT something that would come with the game out of the box. Well, not unless the game was designed by Microsoft, perhaps.

Of course, this is probably not the reason a lot of people voted that "skin hack" option. I figure that's just 'cause they're idiots. :p

(edit) Upon reviewing the poll options, I'd say a more likely reason is that for some absurd reason, "No, it's a skin hack" is the only option that says "No.".

[NeoPhoenixIIM]

I agree with the majority, That UTComp should not be a stock mutator because UT2007 most likely won't even need it.

My problems with UTComp are the bland neon colored skins, and the forced models.

I didn't buy any UT to see one model jumping around my screen. I don't care if I can choose which one model that is or not. I bought UT2004 to see the variety of players, and the awesome detail Epic put into them. I also want other players to see my custom model if they have it installed too, and vice versa. You already have default models for players that don't have the same custom model you have. However, in making it so custom models aren't visible to anyone defeats the purpose of someone spending their time and energy to make the model for the community.

Forced models also take the skill out of learning to see and kill different shaped models. Predictability doesn't equal pro, over coming unpredictability does.

The bland neon skins are just pointless, they don't just make the model visible in normal circumstances, they make the model overly visible in ALL circumstances. If a player runs in to a shadow the player SHOULD get less visible, and if there is no light at all a player should not be visible at all. Making a player equally visible in all circumstances doesn't make the game more pro, it makes it less pro, because it takes the skill and tactics out of the game play.

Besides that, the neon colors are just ugly and detract from the amazing detail Epic spent so much time making for us.

While making these things options keeps me from having to play a low skill ugly looking game. It also gives other players a grater advantage than is necessary to fix the visual problems that exist in UT2004.

Both the Epic bight skins, with the glowing butt light, and the none neon bight skins in UTComp fixed the visual problems without being too extreme or unfair to anyone. And being that I have been playing UT since the original UT, and have been in and played with a few clans in that time, I think I know what is pro and what is not, and making a game less skill based by over compensating for visual short comings is not pro in any way.

I get sick of hearing the “don’t play those servers” too, because UTComp plagues UT2004 servers, and it’s hard to find a server that is both full and low ping, and that is without adding the UTComp into the equation. That just narrows the choices even further.

[icewind]

I don't follow you here at all. :confused:
Like I said, in programming terms, the word 'hack' is often used for a "cork in the hole" solution. Rather than modify the original code to really fix the problem at it's core, you layer more (often ugly) code on top of it to get around the problem. Compare with UTComp: the problem it fixes is that some skins are darker than others, and in many situations the skins are too hard to see alltogether.
Fixing the problem at it's core would be to redesign the skins so that they're all evenly visible, remove fog and clutter from the maps, dim the weapon effects a bit perhaps and rewrite the lighting engine to prevent skins from going completely dark even in situations they should be light.
Instead, UTComp is mod that adds extra code to, through a detour, add a glow that a lot of people consider ugly and isn't even compatible with a lot of other mods, and breaks things like skin effects (like people lighting up blue when you hit them with the LG)
Hack in a computer science context is mostly used to describe a solution to primarily a coding problem. But I guess I can follow your reasoning nonetheless.


A mod that's not compatible with other mods? An extra layer on all skins that breaks existing skin effects? Definitly sounds like a "cork in the hole" solution to me.
Incompatibility with other mods however has nothing to do with the "cork in the hole" nature of UTComp. I'm sure there are other mods out there that are incompatible, so this I can't agree with.



Of course, this is probably not the reason a lot of people voted that "skin hack" option. I figure that's just 'cause they're idiots. :p
Agreed. :)

[Boksha]

Hack in a computer science context is mostly used to describe a solution to primarily a coding problem. But I guess I can follow your reasoning nonetheless. Fair enough. It's a definition problem at any rate; basically a discussion about whether the "hack" label should be put on UTComp or not, even though that doesn't change anything about what UTComp IS; it only changes what you call it. :p


Incompatibility with other mods however has nothing to do with the "cork in the hole" nature of UTComp. I'm sure there are other mods out there that are incompatible, so this I can't agree with. It's generally considered very bad coding practice to replace Player and Pawn classes in a mutator. Mutators are supposed to be combinable; changes that break compatibility with other mutators should be made into a gametype. Of course, this doesn't work for UTComp, but like I said, it does mean that code like UTComp's wouldn't ever be included in a final product.
If UTComp came with the game, it wouldn't be a mutator at all but the changes would be integrated in the game, perhaps with a checkbox to turn them off.

At any rate I think a discussion about whether a UTComp mutator should be included in the game is a bit silly; a discussion about whether the actual features of UTComp (solid-skins, hitsounds, warmup, statistics tracking, autoscreenshots, autodemos; probably others) should be integrated in the game makes a whole lot more sense. And IMO some features definitly should be included, while others shouldn't.

[YARRR]

hitsounds are necessary imo


and btw, quake 3 had them by default

[Apathy]

Because "No,it's a skin hack" is the only "No" option the creator of the thread made. A simple "No" would have done. Instead of making a big deal out of it, I just voted for the one that best fit my opinion on the subject. Would have been the same as the first one being "Yes, I love skin hacks", and the second one just being "No".

I don't believe it's a skin hack. It's just ugly, and ruins gameplay. Sad to see a so called "pro" whining about not being able to see something that they're not supposed to see. Pathetic really.
Turn it off client side? How about we all turn it off, and play the game the way it was intended.

PainKiller had the same kind of brightskins as UTcomp does, but in the retail game, and that completely flopped. At least the "pros" were happy:rolleyes:

[Zasz]

I can see people who use the invis adren combo better than some people in certain maps. Maybe someone has the screenshot from the last time around where 90% of the people could not see a character on the map dm-compressed, under stock settings, unless they previously knew he was there.

[sphinx]

I'm getting so tired of this discussion, that has been old since ut2003's TTM.
I do love the alternations TTM and UTcomp made in the previous UT's. I also think, they were very much needed.
So... i'd rather NOT see a new UTcomp, because then it will mean the game is nearly flawless in its retail-state. I do expect there to be one though.

My advice to epic is: make the standard skins really really well visible in teamgames, so that nobody will feel like there is the need of glowskins. Its better do overdo yourself a little bit, to prevent others from going extreme...


I don't believe it's a skin hack. It's just ugly, and ruins gameplay. Sad to see a so called "pro" whining about not being able to see something that they're not supposed to see. Pathetic really.
Turn it off client side? How about we all turn it off, and play the game the way it was intended.

not supposed to see? are you not supposed to see your enemies? or is an action-fps about the action? where you actually should be able to define weither you are shooting a bush or a player in the fraction of a second.
I dont think the game was intended to be made like that, Epic just didnt care enough about the subject and thought "the community will fix it, so why would we?"


PainKiller had the same kind of brightskins as UTcomp does, but in the retail game, and that completely flopped. At least the "pros" were happy:rolleyes:

it flopped for a lot of other reasons tbh, AWFULL netcode, AWFULL maps, no demo untill months after the release of the game, and when it came out, there was a faulty ini included which made everyone that didnt know about it ping +300. Bad support from the developers, continue continue...

[fuegerstef]

To apathy:
There is a difference between players not visible when they hide where it is meant to be hidden and not seeing them when they are right in front of you under a 1000Watts Lamp.

And why do you think EPIC brightened the retail skins up from Ut2003 to UT2004 and tried stuff like CrotchLights, etc...??????