Dodge Juming

[ShredPrince]

What are thoughts on the removal of the Dodge jump:

[GuntiNDDS]

What are thoughts on the removal of the Dodge jump:

... it may lead to a better Player-Scale.

[Kronos]

Honnestly I dont mind dodge jumping being removed, I can live with it or without it as long as wall dodging and dodging stay.

[AmericanWoman]

I would like to see it stay, but i really don't see it happening.
We do need a dodge though.

[Selerox]

I'm glad dodge-jumping's gone and wall-dodging is staying. I am pretty mystified as to why double-jumping is still in there. UT99 didn't need it, and it makes the movement system needlessly complex (why is bad for any new players). I genuinely don't see the point of it's inclusion.

[RogueLeader]

I don't think that it is that important. It make you move faster through the map, but in a fight it is not that important, because you move quite a long distance what makes you predictable. In fact I don't really care if it is in or not.

[Zoso Fan]

Dodge jumping. though it worked wonderful in UT2004, i think it is a smart move to make the best possible gameplay. (Easy to learn, hard to master) I think a dodge jump would be very intimidating for a new UT player, especially puting consoles into the bit. Though i loved dodge jumping, i think it is time to let go.

[Sero]

I'm glad it's being removed. Been a pain in my ass when mapping and I think especially CTF will become better balanced without it.

[SleightOfHand]

I voted yes, but it's barely a yes. It's nice to have something that adds a dynamic element to movement. But this is a whole new game and lots of other FPSs don't have it. If it's not in, it's fine too, you'll just have to approach your battles differently instead of guns blazing with the knowledge you can bounce around people. Wall dodges and double jumps are still in supposedly, and that may be enough.

[NeoPhoenixIIM]

I don't mind it being gone as long as the game play doesn't slow down any.

However, I'm still perplexed on why they kept the double jump instead of just making a higher single jump. Or why they didn't leave both in, and just reduce the distance and floatiness. The dodge jump could have been made into a nice boosted dodge with a low arc and nice roll animation upon landing.

I guess I'm more of an all or nothing person. Either go all the way with something or don't do anything at all...

[Scylla]

Dodge jumping was a good aspect to the game, it makes the game harder to master. All you had to do to realise it's there is to watch the tutorials.


I'm glad it's being removed. Been a pain in my ass when mapping and I think especially CTF will become better balanced without it.

Great, now trans whores have an even higher chance of catching up.


I'm glad dodge-jumping's gone and wall-dodging is staying. I am pretty mystified as to why double-jumping is still in there. UT99 didn't need it, and it makes the movement system needlessly complex (why is bad for any new players). I genuinely don't see the point of it's inclusion.

Tbh, in UT you were pratically glued to the floor (except you could walk) and the weapons did loads of damage.


Dodge jumping has made the UT series unique, shame that noobs didn't like and complained so now it's gone.

Oh well. Guess I'll have to adapt. Don't want to become one of those people who always goes "back in the good ol' days of...".

[[BGZ]Cpt.Howdy]

Id be sad to see double jump done away with. this is one of the reasons ut2004 stands out from other game types, I think taking away from the game play that has made it popular is not what the loyal fans of UT want.

[Sero]

Dodge jumping was a good aspect to the game, it makes the game harder to master. All you had to do to realise it's there is to watch the tutorials.

Great, now trans whores have an even higher chance of catching up.

Tbh, in UT you were pratically glued to the floor (except you could walk) and the weapons did loads of damage.

Dodge jumping has made the UT series unique, shame that noobs didn't like and complained so now it's gone.

Oh well. Guess I'll have to adapt. Don't want to become one of those people who always goes "back in the good ol' days of...".

Hmm, of course my perspective is mainly based on instagib CTF, which is about all I play atm, and I'm 100% positive iCTF will be better off without the dodge-jump, but I've played my share of nwCTF as well, and I must say that the ut99 version of it agreed with me a lot more, though this had several factors. In the end though, I feel dodge-jumping was the reason why all the non-ONS maps ended up being so screwed up, and I think it was a big mistake to ever implement it.

And I kinda dislike how you seem to imply that people that dislike it are n00b or don't know how to use it properly.. I for one am more than capable with dodge-jumping, because it's an absolute requirement in 'my' gametype, I just think the game would be better off without it, and I'm not the only "non-n00b" to feel that way.

[Scylla]

Explain to me... how does it ruin the game?

I think the more things you need to learn the better, otherwise everyone would have mastered the game...

[Sero]

Explain to me... how does it ruin the game?

I think the more things you need to learn the better, otherwise everyone would have mastered the game...

Emm.. it's not particularly hard to dodge-jump.. it might even be not so bad if it was, because now it simply removes the need to do anything else in CTF or even 1on1 DM if you're in the lead. Removing the dodge-jump will allow for the possibility (still up to Epic to make it work) of a balanced movement system, where there's actually different ways of going at it.

And I don't want to mention mapping a whole lot, so I'll leave it at saying that I gave up mapping in ut2k4, waiting for ut2k7, because the dodge-jump requires too much attention when making a solid layout.. which is basically the reason I dislike it: -everything- is evolving around that dodge-jump, and I can't see how that could ever be a good thing.

[Scylla]

Emm.. it's not particularly hard to dodge-jump.. it might even be not so bad if it was, because now it simply removes the need to do anything else in CTF or even 1on1 DM if you're in the lead. Removing the dodge-jump will allow for the possibility (still up to Epic to make it work) of a balanced movement system, where there's actually different ways of going at it.

And I don't want to mention mapping a whole lot, so I'll leave it at saying that I gave up mapping in ut2k4, waiting for ut2k7, because the dodge-jump requires too much attention when making a solid layout.. which is basically the reason I dislike it: -everything- is evolving around that dodge-jump, and I can't see how that could ever be a good thing.

You still haven't explained why it would make the movement sytem balance and how there is different ways of going at it.

I am going to adapt to the non dodge jump environment, and not constantly complain about it being gone.

[Magwa]

I think it will make the overall gameplay much better and more intence..IMO

[The5thviruz]

I'm going to be laughing so hard when UT2007 is released and this forum will be full of posts about how it's not enough like UT.

[Scylla]

I'm going to be laughing so hard when UT2007 is released and this forum will be full of posts about how it's not enough like UT.

Yep, and if there is another UT, there will be requests to make it more like the original, and people will still complain it doesn't have that "UT 99 feeling".

Oh and I still fail to see any evidence of UT being better than UT 2004.

[Kronos]

I dont care if it feels nothing like UT99 or UT2004, changes are always fun to move to whether there newb or not.

[Sero]

You still haven't explained why it would make the movement sytem balance and how there is different ways of going at it.

I am going to adapt to the non dodge jump environment, and not constantly complain about it being gone.

I'm sorry, I thought that because it was obvious to me it would be the same to others. I will try to explain my line of thought as best I can while trying not to fall asleep ^^

Look at the differences in speed for instance between normal walking/strafing, dodging, jumping and wall-dodging, and then take a look at dodge-jumping. Where without the dodge-jump the choice between getting somewhere by strafing and/or (wall-)dodging is basically a detail, which one would base on which is faster, which allows for avoiding incoming fire better or simply familiarity.

If I play a game of iCTF, I dodge-jump not because I think it's the best option, but because unless you call having to kill every opponent 5+ times before reaching your base an option, it's the only option.

I must say I cannot give much of an accurate description on nwCTF in ut2k4, because after ut99 I just haven't played that much normal weapons any more. But I think the point of my story, which is getting much longer than it should've been, is that dodge-jumping is not a skill that the good gamers have mastered, but a skill that is required to 'matter'.

When a move makes other moves obsolete, even if it's not in every situation (read: gametype), I call that unbalanced.

[dub]

This is a quite a sore point for me and I'm really sad to see it go. Dodging helped to make UT unique and dodges and wall dodges are what make UT 2004 stand out, to some extent and in my opinion add another dimension to the game, which other shooters lack [ergo also giving it more lasting appeal and character])

On one side you do have to cater to new players and give it a form of ease, but on the other hand complex motion adds new dimensions to maps and gameplay and can add to the lifespan of a title... I'm liking the later philosophy more.

[AlienMind]

repeative pushing the same keys on the keyboard sacrificing situational awareness just to move the fastest? why???

[Malkav]

mm bad news for me, I use to move around dodge-jumping and wall-dodge-jumping, I think it's a bad idea to simplify the movements in ut, you can do the jumps more realistic, with the physics, whatever...but don't remove anything!

[ShredPrince]

Cpt.Howdy']Id be sad to see double jump done away with. this is one of the reasons ut2004 stands out from other game types, I think taking away from the game play that has made it popular is not what the loyal fans of UT want.


See I say remove Double Jump, and leave Dodge jump, and Wall dodge jumps.

[Wowbagger]

... it may lead to a better Player-Scale.

Quoted for truth.

[Wowbagger]

..Dodge jumping has made the UT series unique, shame that noobs didn't like and complained so now it's gone...


Its not removed because "noobs" dont like it, get your facts straight.


When UT2003 were made they implemented some new moves, Double Jump, Dodge Jump, Wall Jump and Boost Dodge.
During playtesting (i assume) they realised that players now could reach practically everywhere and the solution to this was....scaling up the maps.

The result of this was of course that the players now looked like ants running around. Standing in a simple doorway made you look like a hobbit and the Ammo were bigger than the player.

The new movement made the player-scale fubared.

And it was transfered to UT2004 practically untouched because it would be too much work to correct it.(Boost Dodge got toned down heavily i think)


What Epic are trying now is to keep most of the movements but tone them down so that the maps can be scaled down and the player-scale will look more normal.
The added Gravity will decrease the amount of time in the air.

And finally, removing Dodge Jump was pretty logical since its the move that takes the player furthest (693 UU ) in one leap.

It would be nice if someone from Epic could get in here and elaborate on this. (or prove me wrong ;))

[Scylla]

During playtesting (i assume) they realised that players now could reach practically everywhere and the solution to this was....scaling up the maps.

What's wrong with being able to get nearly everywhere in a map?

Talking about the scaling, aren't the UT 2007 maps supposed to be way bigger than the UT 2004 ones? Now, unless the player scale is huge so it doesn't really matter, that's the same "problem" as before isn't it (except you can't get arounds as fast)?

You make it sound like having some space is bad though (and there are maps which aren't humungous and you don't see your opponent(s) ).


And finally, removing Dodge Jump was pretty logical since its the move that takes the player furthest (693 UU ) in one leap.

It's logical because you moved faster with it? Sounds like people want the pace of UT 2007 to be slower (or vehicles to dominate even more).

[Molgan]

What's wrong with being able to get nearly everywhere in a map?... ...It's logical because you moved faster with it? Sounds like people want the pace of UT 2007 to be slower (or vehicles to dominate even more).
Dodge juming takes no skill and dont cost anything, and makes the wall dodge needless. It makes movements bigger so the fighting distance grow and results in a teedious sniping contest. Removing the dodge jumps bring players closer, the possibility to narrow down the maps bring them even closer, and the result is a game with higher pace then 2k4. If I have to choose between intense fights or the ability to travel quickly across the map I pick the first choice. The maps are made to fit the movement, not the other way around.

[Wowbagger]

What's wrong with being able to get nearly everywhere in a map?

Maybe because the mapper dont want you to reach that spot without using an alternative route?

Talking about the scaling, aren't the UT 2007 maps supposed to be way bigger than the UT 2004 ones? Now, unless the player scale is huge so it doesn't really matter, that's the same "problem" as before isn't it (except you can't get arounds as fast)?

You make it sound like having some space is bad though (and there are maps which aren't humungous and you don't see your opponent(s) ).

Huge maps is not a problem but when you move inside UT2003/4:s movement cause problems with the Map/Player Scale.





It's logical because you moved faster with it? Sounds like people want the pace of UT 2007 to be slower (or vehicles to dominate even more).


Its not about how fast you move its the Distance (UU= Unreal Units)

I dont know how else to explain this to you.

[Scylla]

These arguments are going nowhere on both sides.

I'm only going to bother with one last comment.


Maybe because the mapper dont want you to reach that spot without using an alternative route?

First thing, that still means that you can get everywhere on the map...
Second, the mapper can easily design it so you can't get there by dodge jumping or wall dodging.

[EntropicLqd]

I'm glad dodge-jumping is going. Equally, I'm glad the wall-dodge is staying.

Don't really care about the double jump much either way (although I think they probably should have taken it out for consistency).


...First thing, that still means that you can get everywhere on the map...
Second, the mapper can easily design it so you can't get there by dodge jumping or wall dodging.
That's true, and the way the mappers design the maps so you can't get everywhere by dodge-jumping or wall dodging is by making the maps huge. Which then screwed the player-scaling in relation to the environment.

Still, we'll know when the demo comes out whether it was a good or bad thing to do.

[Sero]

That's true, and the way the mappers design the maps so you can't get everywhere by dodge-jumping or wall dodging is by making the maps huge. Which then screwed the player-scaling in relation to the environment.

That is exactly what I've been trying (and perhaps failing) to say in my previous posts. Having to make a map suit the dodge-jump limits your possibilities and causes you to constantly try to figure out a way how to not make the map way too big while still using the layout you had in mind, in the end settling for making it too big anyway.

About the "ut2007 maps being bigger" thing, I'm pretty sure that's talk about Warfare and I guess Onslaught, since that's just about the only thing we've been hearing about, except for that the classic gametypes should be more "in your face" style, which tells me that the DM/CTF maps won't be so huge.

[dub]

Player scale.... if I had to choose between a game where the sizing is a little off at times and one that plays well. I'd choose the later.

And if player scale was an issue because they added the dodge jumps etc. late into production... then it shouldn't be an issue with UT 2007 as they would have known about it in advance and could compensate for it. :)

[NeoPhoenixIIM]

I have to agree with Wowbagger. The special moves did make the map scale way too big. Some of the maps made a player look like a child or Toy Story character because of the scaling issues it created. And though the maps in UT2007 are said to be an average of three times larger than UT2004, it's not due to the scale and special moves, but the increased running and vehicle speed.

I really hope they fix the depth perception too, that’s another thing that made characters look small. A hallway that looked no more than 100ft would size your opponent to look like they were two blocks away from you. I always found that to be quite distracting.

[ShredPrince]

I agree that either way you slice it, it's dummbing down the game.Even Mar Rein or somebody said a "noob" will have a fighting chance.IMO that means it will be less of a skill based game.How else could that be the case.I don't know how many of you played UC2, but the same basic thing was said about that game from Epic, only the reverse was true.It made me uneasy that that were even talking about it, and gave me a bad feeling.Well it's a great game, but a freakin noob fest due to "new player friendliness".UT07 might suffer the same fate.

[Xyx]

Where is the "only if running is faster" option?

[mahe]

Imo they should stay and the boost-jump should have it's comeback.
They make the game faster and tricky ... if they aren't here I could play any other fps, it would be nearly the same except of the textures and weapons.
They give many more options to attack and run away.

Those jumps are the reason why I started playing ut2kx and I love them.
Imo ut2kx-moving was the best moving I've ever seen and it should stay.

[iron12]

I’m glad to see it go. But I screwed up on the poll and clicked the wrong one.:D Got the hoverboard now so don’t need it to get around big maps.

[zeitgeber]

I feel dodge jump must stay for all vehicel based gametypes. getting out of the way of a good manta user is hard enough as it is. an easy fix will be if u can shoot while on a hover board but that imbalances hand to hand combat but balances hand to vehicle. i always felt buffing gravity and nerfing moment was a bad idea. should have gone only one way imo. i am sure they are very aware of all the problems and if they dont fix we can always mod!

[Tarball|UTzone]

Good Question
No !

[Luseferous]

IMO it should stay for vehicle based gametypes and go for non-vehicle. The downside is a very large split in gameplay and thus communities. To put it another way people won't play both ONS and DM as much.

[MysTikal]

I think the dodge jump should stay. There should be something new added movementwise aswell, otherwise the trickjumping community is gonna be a bit poor.

[StalwartUK]

Dodge jump? How dare they remove it!

[GuntiNDDS]

it was one of the greater decisions they made and i am thrilled to see how it brings back some of the feel of the original ut.

[F3nyx]

Jumping off thin air is retarded, because it doesn't make an ounce of sense.

Jumping off a wall is awesome, because it's both very difficult-looking and perfectly possible.

Dodging is fine; it's one of the few truly distinctive things about UT.

Wall dodging should stay in, but I won't miss dodge jump and double jump.


Cpt.Howdy']Id be sad to see double jump done away with. this is one of the reasons ut2004 stands out from other game types, I think taking away from the game play that has made it popular is not what the loyal fans of UT want.If Epic has the slightest clue, they'll disregard the words of self-proclaimed "loyal fans." Most of the people who buy UT2007 will have zero involvement in the community. Therefore, the community will not represent the majority's interests. The community DOES produce some damn fine custom content, but once again, most of UT2007's players will never care.

[p2xelgen]

I think removing the DJ is a good thing.

As a mapper I create a better map on a smaller scale, don't no why but thats the way it is. Having DJ removed will help me as a mapper, no more jumping across complet rooms...

[Magwa]

I think the dodge jump should stay. There should be something new added movementwise aswell, otherwise the trickjumping community is gonna be a bit poor.


I mean no offence by this statement towards you ..BUT i say good if the trick jumping community disapears...because i really believe it was the circus moves in 2003 and 2k4 that left alot of people not liking the game as much as they expected...and one reason (speaking for myself) it hurts to play this game for long periods .it just plain hurts..wrist fingers etc from having to bash the keys so much to keep up with all the high flyers...as opposed to UT which i could (and did) play every night for hours...just something to think about that by making the movement a bit more user friendly maybe people will play more...

[Scylla]

Jumping off thin air is retarded, because it doesn't make an ounce of sense.
Hence why the game is called UnrealTournament

Things don't have to make sense...

[Xenocide]

I think they should replace the dodge-jump with some sort of somersault, to dodge incoming vehicles. But to dissuade people from somersaulting all over the map, it should probably do a little damage to the player every time you do so. :o

[Scylla]

What if the person in the vehicle decides to fire at you, then try and run you over?

And what would the death messege be?

"Player killed himself jumping"?

[Wail of Suicide]

Hence why the game is called UnrealTournament

Things don't have to make sense...


If I never see another argument relying upon "Unreal" again it'll be too soon.

Good riddance to the dodge jump, hope the double jump goes too. It was a good idea but no one foresaw the serious consequences it'd have on gameplay.

[Zonka]

I voted to keep dodge jumping in UT2007.

The main argument against dodge jumping I've heard from epic seems to be that noobs can't hit players that are flying about in the air. I think that players are generally more vulnerable if they're off the ground, and so are more likely to be hit. This is because a player in the air can't dodge or make sharp movements.

The main value of dodge jumping is that it is the fastest means to get from A to B, - besides vehicles of course. Its much faster than running. If you take dodge jumping out of the game, you are going to slow it down, and reduce the exhilaration/excitement factor. With the reduced pace, there will be more stale-mate type situations because positions will be easier to defend. if a team is winning it will make it more tempting to just 'defend' the base, making it impossible for the other side to turn the match around.

The other reason to keep dodge jumping is because it feels so nice. I have always enjoyed Instagib, low gravity, on Bridge of Fate, Face, and Anubis. Its the nearest I get to flying. Its a whole aesthetic beautiful experience.

At the very least keep dodge jumping as an option in the same way as 'instagib', 'translocator', and 'low gravity', are options in UT2004. That way, it would be possible to easily port UT2004 maps over to UT2004 and still have them play well.

Also, when I heard of the imminent death of dodge jumping, I decided to go back and try UT99 again and see if I could live without it. The result of that experiment was that I could live without it, but I would rather not.

[Jake-SF]

Dodge jumping allow the player to move faster along the map - problem? It makes hands hurt when used a lot for some people and it is needed to keep up with most people - ridiculously annoying.

Dodge shouldn't be faster than walking either (with the delay, both should be pretty much the same speed, to avoid the need of constant dodging).

Not only that, but dodge jumping creates an annoying gap between players, those who know about it, those who don't. The game doesn't teach it in any way = bad.

Another thing, it allow you to get out of short range fast - really fast - so fast close range based weapons are less usefull, and hitscan automaticly becomes the best choice.

With no dodge jumping and not-too-open area, in-your-face combat are more likely. To compensate in onslaught, we got an hoverboard to get somewhere false, because both the hoverboard and dodge jumping is similar : used to get to point A to point B faster. And both makes you more vulnerable to fire.

Oh yeah, also, since people aware of this ability can get out of the flak cannon's best range easily, noob suffer : they cannot use the spammiest weapon or try to randomly shoot them and give them satisfaction - since they are force to use hitscan to be effective... so, noob get pissed of, they can't kill a fly, and take back the game to the store.

Dodge jumping is more an annoyance than anything else, and I definitively welcome his removal.

[Magwa]

Amen My brother very very well put..:)

[Scylla]

They could have put dodge jumping in the tutorial.

Now that there is no dodge jump and heavier gravity hitscan will own more. It will be harder to get to people and it will probably be easier to bounce people with the shock rifle.
And if the maps are really sqaushed then the flak cannon will dominate now instead.


Oh yeah, also, since people aware of this ability can get out of the flak cannon's best range easily, noob suffer : they cannot use the spammiest weapon or try to randomly shoot them and give them satisfaction - since they are force to use hitscan to be effective... so, noob get pissed of, they can't kill a fly, and take back the game to the store.

They have the minigun, a fast firing hitscan weapon that does 15 damage per shot (excluding shield) with primary and 30 damage (with a slower but more accuarate fire rate) with secondary.

Secondary hits nearly every shot, just point at them and fire.

[F3nyx]

Hence why the game is called UnrealTournament

Things don't have to make sense...yes, obviously every conceivable unrealistic thing belongs in the game :rolleyes:

I don't understand the popularity of this argument.

[Axeman]

meh- dodge jumping doesn't make any difference to me. The only thing I want improved is player scale to their environment.
So- if that means no dodge jumping so be it. Although I think the main culprit for player scale looking "odd" is double jumping.

Imagine some floor trim- in game it looks normal, but add a player standing on it and the trim is wider than the players shoes. Something is wrong with that imho, and it's because you have to make the maps taller and wider (ceilings, hallways, everything) to account for player movement. (dodge jumping, double jumping, wall dodging, etc.)

-Axe

[Scylla]

yes, obviously every conceivable unrealistic thing belongs in the game :rolleyes:

I don't understand the popularity of this argument.

Tell me, when did I say that Unreal Tournament 2007 should contain every unrealistic thing that anyone could ever comprehend?

I said that they CAN, there's the important word, CAN put things in there and they won't have to make sense because the game is called UNREAL Tournament.

Oh btw, if they have mastered anti gravity (hoverboard..) they probably could get the ability to double jump...

[The5thviruz]

yes, obviously every conceivable unrealistic thing belongs in the game :rolleyes:

I don't understand the popularity of this argument.

Yes of course. Now Epic have listened to people like you and decided that it wasn't real enough. Now they have implemented a hoverboard to compensate for the lack of dodge jumping because the maps are so big.

You can also latch onto any vehicle with a beam while on the hoverboard? Certainly looks like every 'conceivable unrealistic thing' can get into the game if this got included.

For 3 years I've watched the UT fanboys go on and on about how the movement isn't like their precious UT, whose own faults they seem to have forgotten. And I know i'll get some one replying to me with something along the lines of: "BUT THEY'RE CIRCUS MOVES! GIVE US BACK THE REAL UT." These people will also claim they can use the moves effectively too. But they can't can they? Otherwise they would have adapted to them like the rest of us who started with UT. All they can do is moan about the changes.

I look forward to reading posts from the people who hate the current flag running system in vehicle CTF. Well guess what? If the hoverboard gets put in and you can pick up the flag with it, you'll get people latching onto raptors/mantas and flying away with the flag, all the way back to their base.

For the record, Epic can screw up onslaught as much as they like. I never play it and don't care about the hoverboard use in that gametype. If they feel that taking out dodging will help people, great, take it out. Everyone who can will adapt to the new system after a couple of games, like they did before. Hoverboards and all.

[F3nyx]

Tell me, when did I say that Unreal Tournament 2007 should contain ever unrealistic thing that anyone could ever comprohend?

I said that they CAN, there's the important word, CAN put things in there and they won't have to make sense because the game is called UNREAL Tournament.Name me one unrealistic thing, besides dodge-jumping/double-jumping, that Epic has added to the games without even the most far-fetched explanation.

Using a shiny grapple cable may seem slightly unrealistic, but it's a far cry from jumping off thin air.

[Scylla]

Did you even read my post?

Btw, since when do you get shot by a laser or a rocket and not die instantly?

[The5thviruz]

Name me one unrealistic thing, besides dodge-jumping/double-jumping,

The weapons,
The Story line,
The "Tournament" part of it,
The Story,
How in the story line you some how die even though you respawn back in the tournament.
The Story,
Wall dodging (which is still in the game????)
The fact that in a virtual reality tournament, certain things still have to be real.
Jumping boots
ETC

[Scylla]

I know, why don't Epic make a game called "Real Tournament"

You have to refuel the vehicles, you run out of breath, can carry only one weapon, have to eat and drink, have to sleep, die in one shot, and your character dies of old age and you can never play the game again.


Sound like fun?

[Kantham]

I'd vote yes.
Dodge jumping can be good, but with the new player scale and walking speed it is now completely useless. Or otherwise, you would be some sort of jumping frog around that only hitscan spam or lucky 'airox' would hit.

Take double jumping of please... For the sake of humanity.

[Xenocide]

I know, why don't Epic make a game called "Real Tournament"

You have to refuel the vehicles, you run out of breath, can carry only one weapon, have to eat and drink, have to sleep, die in one shot, and your character dies of old age and you can never play the game again.


Sound like fun?

Don't forget bathroom breaks ;)

[F3nyx]

The weapons,
The Story line,
The "Tournament" part of it,
The Story,
How in the story line you some how die even though you respawn back in the tournament.
The Story,
Wall dodging (which is still in the game????)
The fact that in a virtual reality tournament, certain things still have to be real.
Jumping boots
ETCSelective quoting FTW. You didn't read the bit about Epic at least offering an explanation for those things?

[Sero]

For 3 years I've watched the UT fanboys go on and on about how the movement isn't like their precious UT, whose own faults they seem to have forgotten. And I know i'll get some one replying to me with something along the lines of: "BUT THEY'RE CIRCUS MOVES! GIVE US BACK THE REAL UT." These people will also claim they can use the moves effectively too. But they can't can they? Otherwise they would have adapted to them like the rest of us who started with UT. All they can do is moan about the changes.

Perhaps not your intention, but this part seems to imply that it's only ut99 players that want the dodge-jump out or something.

I've been playing ut2k4 very actively since its release, though imo ut99 has its strong points, I prefer ut2k4 and I've played it for a longer period. I've mastered the available moves since they're not that hard to master, at least not for someone who plays the game actively, and you know what, I still think the Unreal series will be much better off without dodge-jumping, for the same reasons I've mentioned earlier in this thread.

I think that what Epic says they're trying to do, will make for a far better balanced game, and I think that if they succeed at what they intended to do, the ut2k7 movement system will be a great step forward.. yet there lies the fundamental problem of this entire thread, it's all based on what people think will happen, while in six months we might be seeing a thread with me complaining about the crappy moves and someone like Scylla or The5thviruz or whoever telling me to stuff it because it owns :p

[Xyx]

getting out of the way of a good manta user is hard enough as it is.
You obviously have first-hand experience dodging Mantas in UT2007. Can I have the download address of that private UT2007 demo you played?


The main value of dodge jumping is that it is the fastest means to get from A to B
Problem: It takes too long to reach stuff.
Cause: Stuff is too far away.
Solution: Place stuff closer together.
Sub-optimal alternative: Increase running speed.
Wrong alternative: Add a movement feature that is faster than running.


These people will also claim they can use the moves effectively too. But they can't can they? Otherwise they would have adapted to them like the rest of us who started with UT.
Think I'm not qualified to talk about dodge-jumping?

[StalwartUK]

I wouldn't be terribly surprised if someone makes a dodge jump mutator if it ain't in UT2007.

[MonsOlympus]

Im actually surprised at how much of a split there is on this one. I would have thought no dodge jumping would be way out in the lead, its still pretty close. There is a mutator in ut2k4 to turn it off but I havent seen too many servers running dm games like that.

I have to agree with the people who are saying they get worn out because of all the tripple/quadruple taps and the dodge jumping acts more like a short jetpack than an actual move. Its a pitty that this move does seem to make other movement options obsolete, if it was reworked for ut2k7's gameplay and acted abit differently it might make a welcolme addition. I voted against based on how it works in its current state in 2k4.

[Scylla]

I think that what Epic says they're trying to do, will make for a far better balanced game, and I think that if they succeed at what they intended to do, the ut2k7 movement system will be a great step forward.. yet there lies the fundamental problem of this entire thread, it's all based on what people think will happen, while in six months we might be seeing a thread with me complaining about the crappy moves and someone like Scylla or The5thviruz or whoever telling me to stuff it because it owns

No, we will have adapted to the new movement system. Our points are just about why it was stupid to remove it (now the hoverboard has spawned).
What we will see, is people going "OMG IT'S NOTHING LIKE UT 99 I WANT THAT FEELING BACK!" and they'll want the sequel (if there is one) to try and be a replica of the original UT.

[GuntiNDDS]

they wouldnt have made that change if it wouldnt work out gameplay-wise.

[Sero]

No, we will have adapted to the new movement system. Our points are just about why it was stupid to remove it (now the hoverboard has spawned).

Your explanation here does not really explain the "no", it actually contradicts it if anything.



What we will see, is people going "OMG IT'S NOTHING LIKE UT 99 I WANT THAT FEELING BACK!" and they'll want the sequel (if there is one) to try and be a replica of the original UT.

You'll always see people whining. Whether it's because something is different or because nothing is changed, there will always be people that complain.

My point was that one can only work with educated guesses here, because nobody knows for sure how ut2k7 will end up. We don't know, and that's why a thread like this, with such differing opinions, will never be able to go where people would want it to go, because all people can go by is how they think things will or should work out, while in the end the factor that matters most, the actual gameplay, cannot be included.

edit:

Just trying to say that there is no 'ultimate truth', and you shouldn't act offended by someone opinion.

[Wail of Suicide]

I'm not sure we need "proof" that a game can work without dodgejumping -- I mean, if basically every other action FPS in existence, including earlier iterations of this series, isn't enough proof I don't know what will be.

[Draco]

im on the fence about it all, basicly i think im just nervious about it all. one of the main things that sets ut apart from all other games is the movment, the fast action and advanced movment. and too see the dodge jump being axed i feel both "ah thats going to cause some issues" and "this may make the game a little more intresting" and since epic has yet to really show us any videos of advanced movment in ut07 no one really knows how much they toned it down. i also know with dodge jumping pulled from 07 it will effect mine and alot of other peeps i know ablitiy to get away from mantas (and any other quick moving vehicles), i know for me when i see a manta last sec and dont have enough time to get out a wepon like shock or avril, i dodge jump and its just enough room to side step an incoming manta, with dodge jumping gone, there will be no way to side step a manta...increasing the manta whoreing.

but then again i have faith in epic, they always put out games i enjoy so ill leave it at that...but we need some dodging videos!!!!!!

[Sero]

we need some dodging videos!!!!!!

agreed

wouldn't that be something now, seeing a video where the guy playing actually knows what he's doing ^^

not gonna happen I guess

[Luseferous]

I voted it should stay because I only really play onslaught and as things stand dodgejump really is core to the gameplay. Not just getting around faster but for fighting vehicles. Hoverboards will not replace dodgejump in that respect making the game more unbalanced. One compensation may lay in the weapons. For instance if the minigun replacement is an effective medium range vehicle killer (especially mantas) then that would help a lot.

[Draco]

I voted it should stay because I only really play onslaught and as things stand dodgejump really is core to the gameplay. Not just getting around faster but for fighting vehicles. Hoverboards will not replace dodgejump in that respect making the game more unbalanced. One compensation may lay in the weapons. For instance if the minigun replacement is an effective short to medium range vehicle killer (especially mantas) then that would help a lot.

that was my point as well, we shal see how it all turns out...

[Magwa]

I think they should replace the dodge-jump with some sort of somersault, to dodge incoming vehicles. But to dissuade people from somersaulting all over the map, it should probably do a little damage to the player every time you do so. :o

They had that in Ut99 when you used the Skarjj Human Hybred skin you could do a roll left or right it was killer...

Scylla , did you ever really play Ut99? ( i do not know that is why i am asking) without doublejump or dodge jump you could avoid all the weapons including the mini and it had LOCK DOWN...,i assure you the movement in UT99 was more than enough.

Draco, You must realize that this movement that you speak of as being so revolutionary has only been around 3 years since 2k3 UT have been around since 1999and Unreal before it 1998 so i fail to see how the movement is what seperates this game from all others...it must be obvious that alot of people do not agree with you on this subject as there are not alot of people playing 2k4 and there is still people playing UT,trust me the movement in 2007 (i hate the name) :) will be great for 2007..:)

[Ender]

Removing dodge jumping will be a good thing for this game. However I am perplexed by the double jump staying in, and personally think it should be removed as well. Keeping a wall dodge (jump + dodge off a wall) is a great idea, and seems like a natural progression.

If possible, I would like to know why dodge jumping is being removed but double jumping is staying. Anyone know? Is it too late to hope Epic might change their minds and remove it still?

[Wowbagger]

Im assuming it is because Dodge Jumping makes you leap the longest distance.

Jump__________ Height 53 UU Distance 315 UU
Dodge ________ Height 18 UU Distance 338 UU
Double Jump_____ Height 119 UU Distance 603 UU
Dodge Jump____ Height 87 UU Distance 693 UU
Data taken from Unreal Wiki

[Ender]

Judging from that I'd say the double jump staying in will still ruin the scaling they are going for. The double jump is nearly double that of a regular dodge.

[Draco]

magwa, never once did say "dodge jumping is what ut makes ut" maybe u should read a little closer next time. i said that the fast action and advanced movment is one of the key elements that make ut, ut. but that wasent even my main point which u failed to leave out of your post, that some one else has refered to just 2 posts after me. which is...

the removal of dodge jump will greatly impact any vehicular game. i honestly can not tell you the amount of times i dodge jumped my way to safty from an incomming manta or other quick moving vehicle. thus giving me the upper hand as the vehicle flew by to destroy it. and i know for a fact there are LOADS of skilled players out there who use dodge jumping to manuver there way around vehicles, this helps balance the footsolder vs vehicle battles. with the removal of it, it will be impossible to escape the path of any incomming quick moving vehicle axon or necris, which could lead to terrible "whoring" with those vehicles, and terrible spawn and base camping due to the low ablity to manuver away from these vehicles. and for those of you who play ons u already know the spawn and base camping with such vehicles as the manta, its only bound to get worse with no dodge jump. that was my main point

[JohnDoe641]

Judging from that I'd say the double jump staying in will still ruin the scaling they are going for. The double jump is nearly double that of a regular dodge. Remember that Epic stated that the gravity will feel more "real" or "heavy" so maybe the double jump will be a bit more limited this time. At least I hope it is because double jumping/doudge jumping are rediculous and pathetic ways to conteract bad scaling issues.

[Ender]

Well I still hope it goes. I like the idea of leaving the wall dodge in, because that seems plausible. While I enjoyed the double jump and dodge jumps in 2k*, I think the game is better off without them, and they for sure were never plausible.

To the guys thinking that losing the dodge jump will screw up vehicle gametypes, they already added a fix for that: the hoverboard.

[Draco]

To the guys thinking that losing the dodge jump will screw up vehicle gametypes, they already added a fix for that: the hoverboard.

LOL!!! are u kidding me, ive wrote i out 2-3 times already stating that the dodge jump gives u the ablitiy to manuver away from vehicles, the hover board wont do anything of that sort or "fix that", the hover board is supose to be used to get from node to node faster, and when you are on the hover board u cannot use wepons, so its pointless to pull it out in vehicle combat LOL...

but like i previously posted, i dont nessisartly think its all bad that its gone, im just very concerned as to how its going to effect vehicular game play. it will put foot solders at a very big disadvangate, especialy vs fast vehicles such as a manta.

[Magwa]

I got ya Draco,just did not want to quote your whole post just seemed to me that to many people think the game will not be good without all the circus moves (i am not saying you said that) i think that the game will be just fine with limited movement and learn to keep that shock rifle handy it stops mantas in their tracks and sets them up for a combo works just fine..:)

In fact there is not one vehicle except the tank i can not knock off their wheels with shock secondary try it you will like it ..:)

[Draco]

ya magwa, im def gona try it, i cant wait til the game comes out...im just concerned for all vehicular game types thats all...but less dodging in DM style game times i think will imporove game play. so thats why im on the fence

[Luseferous]

... learn to keep that shock rifle handy it stops mantas in their tracks and sets them up for a combo works just fine..

In fact there is not one vehicle except the tank i can not knock off their wheels with shock secondary try it you will like it ...

I thought the idea was to promote 'in your face action' and reduce hit scan dominance.:p :)

Seriously though It would get very boring if the only answer to vehicles running you down is the shock rifle.

[Magwa]

I thought the idea was to promote 'in your face action' and reduce hit scan dominance.:p :)

Seriously though It would get very boring if the only answer to vehicles running you down is the shock rifle.


Well lets see here the shock secondary(it is not hitscan) is slow as molassas and the vehicle has to be in you FACE for it to work and i never evar get bored of knocking vehicles off their wheels and comboing them...ask flak it is true..:)

[iLL]

I think it should stay.
The movement is just one of the very many reasons I love this game.
It adds a whole new level to the shooter experience.Even if you're not a great fragger you can still have a fair chance in a battle by being a good mover.
The floatiness just needs toned down a hair.Just knock a few feet of the overall distance and we're good.UT's agile movements helps to curve spam and really forces you to hone your aiming and prediction skills.Furthermore
it really sets it apart from any other game.
I have played Doom3,Prey,HL2,Quake 4 and other beautiful shooters with unique weaponry,but why I never did anything other than check them out for a couple of weeks was the lame movment.All you ever get with other shooters is a bunny hop,basic sidestep(watered down strafe),or crouch.Its really why I cannot play any other shooter.I feel as though I am speed walking at best.In real life if you were shooting at me I think I could do better than a speed walk,hop,and sidestep.
I understand they want it gone to help noobs and appeal more to the UT99 community,but it should stay with the option to turn it off server and or clientside.Let them start simple.When they feel comfortable with a dodge,walldodge,or double jump then they can turn it on unless the server has it disabled.
I will buy the game and enjoy it regardless,but thats my .02 on the topic.

[Kharn]

Dodge jumps help hitscan dominate too much. I believe its part and parcel of the way ut2007 is heading that they remove this, so less people are alienated by all the super-movement and hitscan domination.

Why does dodge jumping help hitscan?

Well say youre using rockets, or flak, and you make a perfect shot at someones feet during a fight, if your oppponent can only dodge, he can probably just about avoid if hes quick, if he can dodge jump he can clear a big gap and take no damage more safely.

Hitscan shooting someone thats travelling sideways a long distance is suprisingly much easier, just try instagib when someones making tiny little movements everywhere, you miss much more then someone thats dodge jumping around. Its simply due to the fact you can tell where your opponent is going to be when they are on a trajectory, rather then able to change direction at any time.

[Kharnellius]

magwa, never once did say "dodge jumping is what ut makes ut" maybe u should read a little closer next time. i said that the fast action and advanced movment is one of the key elements that make ut, ut. but that wasent even my main point which u failed to leave out of your post, that some one else has refered to just 2 posts after me. which is...

the removal of dodge jump will greatly impact any vehicular game. i honestly can not tell you the amount of times i dodge jumped my way to safty from an incomming manta or other quick moving vehicle. thus giving me the upper hand as the vehicle flew by to destroy it. and i know for a fact there are LOADS of skilled players out there who use dodge jumping to manuver there way around vehicles, this helps balance the footsolder vs vehicle battles. with the removal of it, it will be impossible to escape the path of any incomming quick moving vehicle axon or necris, which could lead to terrible "whoring" with those vehicles, and terrible spawn and base camping due to the low ablity to manuver away from these vehicles. and for those of you who play ons u already know the spawn and base camping with such vehicles as the manta, its only bound to get worse with no dodge jump. that was my main point
(Well...these were enough to finally break my silence.)

- You seem to know a lot about the game. Where is this leak you possess...and please do share.

- You also seem to assume that Epic is dumb enough to not take any of this into consideration.

- You (and others) assume that nothing else in the game will change from 2k4 -> 2k7.
(i.e. manta will remain a speed demon, shock will still own everything, people will move slower than sh!t through molasses, and on and on...)


Let's think for a moment...it's always worth a shot.

In 2k4 "dodge jump" was pretty much necessary for two main things:
1) Get from A to B quickly
2) Avoid vehicles

It has been removed now so the hoverboard was brought in to take care of point (1).

What is taking care of point (2)? Who knows...but why are we assuming the absolute damn worst? Do you really have that much lack of faith in Epic?


My vote... "Wait and See"





Lastly, chill. :cool:

P.S. In the previous post, Kharn (long lost twin?) hits on a lot of important points too. All of them are very true.

[da ghost]

I'm glad dodge-jumping's gone and wall-dodging is staying. I am pretty mystified as to why double-jumping is still in there. UT99 didn't need it, and it makes the movement system needlessly complex (why is bad for any new players). I genuinely don't see the point of it's inclusion.
if you think the movement system is complex, go play quake (or warsow), come back after a week of being befuddled at how everyone's jumping and going faster so much, and come back to UT2004 to appreciate the dodgejump.

without the dodgejump, movement feels clumsy. Like you're riding in a car with a 5 year old driving, accelerating quickly and stopping. accelerate....stop. accelerate...stop.

Alex Trebek: getting rid of dodgejumping puts UT movement back-to-back with the movement of this popular hate-or-love slow-paced console shooter.

uh....what is HEY-LOW?

[Draco]

- You seem to know a lot about the game. Where is this leak you possess...and please do share.

- You also seem to assume that Epic is dumb enough to not take any of this into consideration.

- You (and others) assume that nothing else in the game will change from 2k4 -> 2k7.
(i.e. manta will remain a speed demon, shock will still own everything, people will move slower than sh!t through molasses, and on and on...)
[/SIZE][/COLOR]

1. i dont "possess any leaks" i am just very intrested in the ut topic and i read and or watch every little bit of information that is ever released.

2. i never said i assume epic is "stupid" for the most part they release very solid games, although they have looked over a few things and have made a few design flaws in the past...no one can argue with that.

3. u gave 3 examples, all of which dont mean anything to what i had orginaly said,
A. "how do u know manta will remian a speed demon"...you never "know" anything until the game is out, but that is the only streignth of the manta, and with them adding very fast vehicles such as the "viper" to the necris vehicle class they u can be assured that the manta will be fast like it was in ut04.
B. think about that one as well, if the shock cant stop an incomming vehicle what can?...not many other wepons can do what the shock does completly pushing the vehicle back in its tracks so u dont get run over...now that i think about no other wepon can do that, not the avril, not the flak, nothing, they may be able to stop the manta, or slow it down dramaticly, but they dont literaly throw/push it backwars. so if they took that feature from the shock in 07 then they would be putting the foot solder at an ever greater disadvantage.
C. we have all seen the videos of the upcomming 07, now granted we havent seen what a dodge looks like yet, but as far as the playermovment in those videos, there is no way in hell would one of those charecters be able to "out side run" an incomming quick moving vehicle like a dodge jump could.

[Kharnellius]

1. i dont "possess any leaks" i am just very intrested in the ut topic and i read and or watch every little bit of information that is ever released.

2. i never said i assume epic is "stupid" for the most part they release very solid games, although they have looked over a few things and have made a few design flaws in the past...no one can argue with that.

3. u gave 3 examples, all of which dont mean anything to what i had orginaly said,
A. "how do u know manta will remian a speed demon"...you never "know" anything until the game is out, but that is the only streignth of the manta, and with them adding very fast vehicles such as the "viper" to the necris vehicle class they u can be assured that the manta will be fast like it was in ut04.
B. think about that one as well, if the shock cant stop an incomming vehicle what can?...not many other wepons can do what the shock does completly pushing the vehicle back in its tracks so u dont get run over...now that i think about no other wepon can do that, not the avril, not the flak, nothing, they may be able to stop the manta, or slow it down dramaticly, but they dont literaly throw/push it backwars. so if they took that feature from the shock in 07 then they would be putting the foot solder at an ever greater disadvantage.
C. we have all seen the videos of the upcomming 07, now granted we havent seen what a dodge looks like yet, but as far as the playermovment in those videos, there is no way in hell would one of those charecters be able to "out side run" an incomming quick moving vehicle like a dodge jump could.
Excellent. You have basically restated what I said: "We have no idea how any of this WILL be handled so why are we bothering with all this speculation?"

Glad we agree.

Case closed. :tup:

[_Cox]

I think it should stay.
The movement is just one of the very many reasons I love this game.
It adds a whole new level to the shooter experience.Even if you're not a great fragger you can still have a fair chance in a battle by being a good mover.
The floatiness just needs toned down a hair.Just knock a few feet of the overall distance and we're good.UT's agile movements helps to curve spam and really forces you to hone your aiming and prediction skills.Furthermore
it really sets it apart from any other game.
I completely agree!

[GuntiNDDS]

Excellent. You have basically restated what I said: "We have no idea how any of this WILL be handled so why are we bothering with all this speculation?"

Glad we agree.

Case closed. :tup:

because theres nothing else to do but speculating on
theese boards ?

[_Cox]

So somebody please tell me:
Dodge in UT2007 - Yes or No?
Dodge Jump - Yes or No?
Wall Jump - Yes or No?
Double Jump - Yes or No?

[Draco]

as of right now...

Dodge - Yes
Dodge Jump - No
Wall Jump - Yes
Double Jump - Yes

[Boksha]

Going purely by the information that has gone public so far:

Dodging is in.
Jumping in mid-air after a grounded jump is in.
Walldodging in.
Jumping in mid-air after a dodge or walldodge is NOT in.

[Modulus]

My feelings as a long time UT player is that without dodge jumping the scaling of the maps will be toned down which will increase the number of times you find yourself in a tight place and have to fight in close quarters... Which is what made UT such an intense game to play. I swear there was nothing better than walking down the shield belt corridor on DM-Liandri and having to fight off two players, one with a mini and the other with a RL in extremely tight quarters. It made the game more about outsmarting your opponent and less about floating at some unbelievable speed right over thier head by dodge-jumping and shooting them in the back.

UT's gameplay was much smarter in my opinion than 2k4 and made you think about tricking your opponent and becoming proficient with the weapons. 2k4's movement emphasised a kind of keep-away game and never appealed to me in any way.

Think about how much harder it is to be going for the powerups in UT, in close quarters and having to fight someone while the both of you have rocket launchers. Not only are you forced to face your opponent and use intellegence to beat him, but you also have to play against the map so that you don't kill yourself with splash damage.

Without dodge-jumping gameplay will be faster, more hectic and a hell of a lot more fun. :)

[ShredPrince]

I see what your saying abouut the keep away game.

For the average FPS player I say do what your gonna do Epic.

For the UT vets: dodge jump is not an issue, and I see it as a more skilled form of gameplay.

More skilled in that a "noob" caould not hang.Now some see that as bad.For gross sales maybe, but for elite gaming...not so much.


I could give two Sheots about getting in my opponents face.I prefer to be silent death anyhow, that which you rarely see.

The crux of the matter to me is most people buying this game are very used to dodge jumpingm abd would have no probs with it.

In all reality the goal is to be more "user friendly" like Halo, and get more sales.

I don't see that many new player picking it up based upon that alone.

[Garcia y Vega]

The whole removal of dodge jumping was about reducing the possible moves a palyer could make, thus making them easier to predict and in turn kill. I forget the dev interview where they explained it. By that logic dodge jumping makes you play a "smarter" game because you need better intuition and prediction to hit another player.

[Modulus]

The whole removal of dodge jumping was about reducing the possible moves a palyer could make, thus making them easier to predict and in turn kill. I forget the dev interview where they explained it. By that logic dodge jumping makes you play a "smarter" game because you need better intuition and prediction to hit another player.

But I don't agree with that at all... Instead of saying that it makes them easier to kill, you should say that it forces them to confront thier enemy. Just because I can catch up to you doesn't mean that I can kill you... It only means that I can make you at least acknowledge my presence and have a little skirmish with me.

And believe it or not, I was a great UT player and am currently a decent 2k4 player, thus I feel qualified to make this statement... It is harder to judge an opponents actions when he's moving in short bursts rather than in large trajectories like those implimented with dodge-jump.

[blackout]

strafe dodge jumps are just faster than normal walking, sure it's not the right choice to confuse enemies...

[CounterZeus]

aren't the players moving faster, so I think a quick run (=walking :P) and jump/dodge will be enough to evade the vehicles :)

[Ward]

Removing dodge jump will lead to much better map/player scale, and will indeed at to more up close and personal combat, so YES, dodge jumping should leave.

[McFly2000]

No, it should not stay. And the wepons need to be a lot more powerful.

Think UT99.
This was Epic's greatest work. Build on that.

[AFG34]

CTF gameplay will be slower, i love shield jumping but i dnt want it removed. If they do, i predict the CTF community will be dimm in 2 years

[AFG34]

I WANT THE FKIN MOVEMENT TO BE SAME AS UT2K4!!!, it wud be tooo boring without advanced movement

[Selerox]

No, it should not stay. And the wepons need to be a lot more powerful.

Think UT99.
This was Epic's greatest work. Build on that.

Thankyou for summing it up so well, agreed 100% :)

[Ender]

More powerful yes, but not ut99 powerful. That was excessive.

[p2xelgen]

I WANT THE FKIN MOVEMENT TO BE SAME AS UT2K4!!!, it wud be tooo boring without advanced movement

"advanced movement"

L:D L
Well I would all it that...

[Modulus]

More powerful yes, but not ut99 powerful. That was excessive.

Well at least 90% of what UT weapons were at damage wise... I mean, at the very tippy top of my game when I played UT (and was part of one of the top 10 clans on the ladders) I could join a pickup game of deck and beat 10 other people quite consistently... Even though there were rockets and flak and ripper spam everywhere I still managed to win without any deaths.

The higher damage weapons in UT made players have such an emphasis on avoiding damage... I never saw the high damage weapons as a bad thing and a really good player could be quite successful in dodging incoming fire if he knew the maps well enough. In 2k4 you get everyone and thier mother basically just plowing oncoming fire while dodge jumping to blast you in the face with rockets. I personally feel that 2k4 is a lot sloppier than UT. UT required a lot more finesse to really master your opponents. I loved that and I really really hope we get some more power in our weapons for this iteration of Unreal.

p.s. all of this UT talk is getting me moist... I want to reload Unreal and do some co-op or some UT for some TDM... Too bad there servers are all empty. :(

[Badger]

Personally i would really miss the dodge jump. I loved the spazzy movement in UT2004 and its what made me enjoy it so much. Like someone else stated in this thread, i think it could still be more than viable if they simply turned down the floaty feel, and took a little distance off how far you can actually travel per dodge jump.

The fact that this poll is pretty much split 50/50 suggests to me that a feature allowing this mode to be turned on or off in UT2007 would be a really good idea.

[UnrealGrrl]

glad to see it go, too bad double jumping didnt go away with it... but we'll only know once the game comes out how it effects things. movement is sooo important in UT and it got a lil offtrack in ut200x and its good to see Epic is trying to find a happy medium here...

Dodging on its own is of course UT standard and should be messed with.

[UnrealGrrl]

CTF gameplay will be slower, i love shield jumping but i dnt want it removed. If they do, i predict the CTF community will be dimm in 2 years

Shield or hammer jumping is fine. but BOOST jumping of any kind though is what kills CTF (and other gametypes like AS) . if you can shield/hammer jump across a medium sized map - thats a gametype killer.
shield & hammer jumping should be just for getting to out of the way places and or should cause so much damage to the player thats its a one trick pony and only useful in a desperate circumstance...
Shieldgun is gone anyway so if it goes back to old style hammer without the possibility of boosting yourself across a map like Citadel then we're talkin UT again and thatsa good thing ;)


ps. lets not even talk about TL punting with hammers (Hello Epic - Please make it so if you hit your own or teammates TL disc with the hammer it kills it, kthx! :) )

[MonsOlympus]

OMG nooooooooooooooo! Yes is winning, mutdodgejumptoruin2k7 maps rofl jk

[Kronos]

CTF gameplay will be slower, i love shield jumping but i dnt want it removed. If they do, i predict the CTF community will be dimm in 2 years
You could impact hammer jump in UT99

[{SM}LeadSniper]

its just something you get use to. like i use to be use to the 1 analog set up for the ut for the DC but when i try playing it now. well it feels so alien..

[Draco]

so many people vote yes, i can see it now within 2 weeks of game being out there will be a dodge jump mutator if epic doesnt include a mutator with the game.

[ShredPrince]

Its not removed because "noobs" dont like it, get your facts straight.


When UT2003 were made they implemented some new moves, Double Jump, Dodge Jump, Wall Jump and Boost Dodge.
During playtesting (i assume) they realised that players now could reach practically everywhere and the solution to this was....scaling up the maps.

The result of this was of course that the players now looked like ants running around. Standing in a simple doorway made you look like a hobbit and the Ammo were bigger than the player.

The new movement made the player-scale fubared.

And it was transfered to UT2004 practically untouched because it would be too much work to correct it.(Boost Dodge got toned down heavily i think)


What Epic are trying now is to keep most of the movements but tone them down so that the maps can be scaled down and the player-scale will look more normal.
The added Gravity will decrease the amount of time in the air.

And finally, removing Dodge Jump was pretty logical since its the move that takes the player furthest (693 UU ) in one leap.

It would be nice if someone from Epic could get in here and elaborate on this. (or prove me wrong ;))

I'm glad you have an opinion!

This poll owns, perfect split: wahts that say???

I belive it says: appeal to both sides!!!!

I don't want UT99 likers to hate the game, and same for UT200x lovers.Maybe somehow we'll all get what we want.

[MonsOlympus]

Well I like how you split it up like that shred, what happens if you like both almost equal? wont we be pleased rofl

[ShredPrince]

um then I guess theres no way you'll not be happy, in that case vote for the less voted one...LOL

I think mut's could make this not an issue at all.

[MonsOlympus]

Well since the communitys been so great at porting ut99 content over I'll just have to stick with ut2k4 with the no dodge jump mut :p

If there is a mutator in 2k7 to add it back in I hope they tone it down a notch or two, that ways the maps wont be too big or small with whatever option you decide to use. Id be happy to see it return as a mut, like the dodge double jump, boost dodging etc

Like I said before I voted no based on how it is in 2k4 so if thats why people are voting yes its kinda sad for me as I can see the problems it generates first hand. I dont know why anyone else wouldnt notice, perhaps they are too busy pwning to even care.

[Kharnellius]

Strangely enough, this one of the few places (forums) I have found people actually wanting the dodge jump back in. (My comparison including the atari forums for UT and the beyondunreal forums...among others)

My only guess, is that those are more established forums (been around much longer) and people have talked the subject to death so much that it has become more apparent as to how dodge jump has affected gameplay.....mostly negatively.

Shred...why the shouting? *checks ears* :p



EDIT: There! I found what I had been looking for for some time now.

The following two videos illustrate what I think is wrong with UT2k4. These don't necessarily have to do with dodge jump directly (though it is used quite a bit in both videos) but it shows how dodge jump, hitscan weapons, and the shield gun (and even adrenaline) all came together to create what I consider to be a flaw in the UT2k4 gameplay. Namely, someone can completely own an entire match including all the players while barely ever getting touched. This is something you really would not have found in UT99. With no further ado, here they are...

http://own-age.com/vids/video.aspx?id=7066

http://www.own-age.com/vids/video.aspx?id=5671

You may disagree that it SHOULD be possible to own an entire teambased match singlehandledly...and if that is the case...there is no argument between us because we completely disagree on how a team game should play.

If you DO agree, however, that this should NOT be possible...then perhaps these videos will help solidify your reasoning, and understanding as to why Epic is removing the DJ, the shieldgun, and de-emphasizing long range combat in UT2k7 and bringing back as best as possible the "in your face" combat.


Night all,
Kharn

[Modulus]

It wasn't that hard to singlehandedly to own and entire game in UT99 either... All you needed to do was to avoid spam, use the jumpboots whenever possible and collect all the armor you can get your hands on.

[Boksha]

CTF gameplay will be slower, i love shield jumping but i dnt want it removed. If they do, i predict the CTF community will be dimm in 2 years There will be hammerjumping instead, just like in UT.
Which, incidentally, still has a much more lively CTF community than UT2004.

[Ickle]

I think the dodge jump should stay. There should be something new added movementwise aswell, otherwise the trickjumping community is gonna be a bit poor.
Not gonna comment on the whole movement debate myself, but i can never understand why can't just increasing the gravity and/or nerfing solve the issues more or less in one go?

I'm not very much in the community but i am an avid jumper, so let me say, we'll just make do with what we have/will get. We always do.
I guess it will namely be weapons-jumping from now on unless there's another bug for us to abuse....

We'll find someway to get that little bit extra further and higher. :)

[«-TuF-G!rL-»]

hmmm the style of ut is completly different to all theese other fps, thats why it is so well loved. Removing core movements such as the dodge jump will piss the players off that have trained for years to master the art ov movement. taking away the dodge jump is stupid, its part of what makes the game original, and not like css or bf2 and all the other games where u can only walk in a straight bloody line

[The5thviruz]

hmmm the style of ut is completly different to all theese other fps, thats why it is so well loved. Removing core movements such as the dodge jump will piss the players off that have trained for years to master the art ov movement. taking away the dodge jump is stupid, its part of what makes the game original, and not like css or bf2 and all the other games where u can only walk in a straight bloody line

Falling on deaf ears...

[MonsOlympus]

Originally Posted by «-TuF-G!rL-»
hmmm the style of ut is completly different to all theese other fps, thats why it is so well loved. Removing core movements such as the dodge jump will piss the players off that have trained for years to master the art ov movement. taking away the dodge jump is stupid, its part of what makes the game original, and not like css or bf2 and all the other games where u can only walk in a straight bloody line
I think the issue is the fact dodge jumping replaced all other forms of navigation around the map not if it should be removed. As I have said it could work really well if it wasnt so damn powerful.

[Boksha]

hmmm the style of ut is completly different to all theese other fps, thats why it is so well loved. Removing core movements such as the dodge jump will piss the players off that have trained for years to master the art ov movement. It might piss off players that spend their days playing DodgeProMod, but then again there's nothing that prevents them from playing DPM for UT2004 after UT2007 is released because it's basically a single-player mod.

If you were talking about people that mastered movement in combat... mastering combat movement in UT2004 mostly involves learning that you should never dodgejump. :p (there are exceptions of course, but when dodging single shots, doing dodgejumps isn't necessary or even wise)

Also, the only way the dodgejump is "core movement" is because people do it all the time whenever they're not actually fighting, which is just silly IMO. If anything it's a serious flaw in the game, not something that makes it original.

[Kharnellius]

hmmm the style of ut is completly different to all theese other fps, thats why it is so well loved. Removing core movements such as the dodge jump will piss the players off that have trained for years to master the art ov movement. taking away the dodge jump is stupid, its part of what makes the game original, and not like css or bf2 and all the other games where u can only walk in a straight bloody line
Keep in mind, Dodge, Double Jump, and Wall Dodge are still in.

Dodge was what really made UT unique and it has been a core component since the very beginning (the original Unreal game had it) and it is remaining in.

Dodge jump was introduced for a lot of reasons but created many of headaches we have today with player scale and floatiness (which was gravity too...yes, I know).

Anyways, Boksha hit it right on the nose.

[Badger]

It might piss off players that spend their days playing DodgeProMod, but then again there's nothing that prevents them from playing DPM for UT2004 after UT2007 is released because it's basically a single-player mod.

If you were talking about people that mastered movement in combat... mastering combat movement in UT2004 mostly involves learning that you should never dodgejump. :p (there are exceptions of course, but when dodging single shots, doing dodgejumps isn't necessary or even wise)

Also, the only way the dodgejump is "core movement" is because people do it all the time whenever they're not actually fighting, which is just silly IMO. If anything it's a serious flaw in the game, not something that makes it original.

Actually if you look at the poll, there are more people wishing for Dodge jump to stay. Im not saying that this poll is a totally accurate representation of what the community wants, but i think its a bit narrow minded to assume that only Dodge pro players and a few others will miss it. Clearly the community checking this forum is easily split 50/50.

[Boksha]

Actually if you look at the poll, there are more people wishing for Dodge jump to stay. Im not saying that this poll is a totally accurate representation of what the community wants ...and it isn't; most of the people here are UT2004 players. I'm surprised there are this many people voting the dodgejump off actually.


but i think its a bit narrow minded to assume that only Dodge pro players and a few others will miss it. I didn't, but Tuf Girl mentioned removing dodgejumps "will piss the players off that have trained for years to master the art ov movement", while I think mastery that does not involve trickjumping also does not involve the dodgejump.

[Kharnellius]

Actually this is the most recent poll out of about 4 like this one I have seen. And this is the only one I have seen in favor of the Dodge Jump. Check out more established forums like the Atari forums and BeyondUnreal forums.

Also, we really have no idea what people will actually think considering this poll involves ~185 people compared to the millions who bought the game.

[Draco]

Actually if you look at the poll, there are more people wishing for Dodge jump to stay. Im not saying that this poll is a totally accurate representation of what the community wants, but i think its a bit narrow minded to assume that only Dodge pro players and a few others will miss it. Clearly the community checking this forum is easily split 50/50.

thats why i said, they should have it off by default but have a mod included u can turn on, its not like the comunity wouldent make one within 2 weeks anyway, so they might as well include it with the game along with the "big head mod" and all the others they have.

[Daverix]

Im a casual gamer and I did know it existed but not how to make the move until like a month ago so I'm not that bothered with it not existing. I wish I could have learned that a long time ago... It's only to dodge than jump basically which I never found out. Epic should make better tutorial or something to learn the game ;-)

[MonsOlympus]

The thing I really dont get is 2k4 included mutators to turn double jumping and dodge jumping off but are rarely used. I think you have to remove both though as far as I can recall theres no option to turn one off and keep the other on.

[Denk]

why aint this poll closed? xD

we want anticheat tbh

[Mercur]

Oh Denk, don't expect these ignorant people to reply. Anticheat is teh forbidden word in this forum.

[Nabla]

How about a ProHonest mutator, that awards good playing without any aid from 'outside' with permission to play the next game with the same guid?

[ShaD]

Will epic make a anticheat program to make ut more secure?
What you guys think of it?
Any maybe has a valid reason why they keep deleting the post of anticheat?
Why we may not talk about it?

[MonsOlympus]

umm kinda offtopix guys.

[Draco]

only reason i can think of is it might hurt there "sales" when all reality is that cheaters hurt there sales, not suggestions for upcomming games on a forum...

but seriously guys, we gota get back on topic, this is a lenghty thread that has some good stuff in it, and knowing the mods they will deleate the whole thing cause it says "cheat" a few times in it.

[Denk]

well, we just started posting here, cuz we reccon this thread wont get killed...

I dno why the moderators delete the anticheat thread - i reccon it had some nice input...

*Ontopic*¨Dodgejump should stay, one of the biggest reason why i don't play ut99 alot is cuz it doesn't have it, nor walldodge... :)

[ShredPrince]

well, we just started posting here, cuz we reccon this thread wont get killed...

I dno why the moderators delete the anticheat thread - i reccon it had some nice input...

*Ontopic*¨Dodgejump should stay, one of the biggest reason why i don't play ut99 alot is cuz it doesn't have it, nor walldodge... :)


agreed, otherwise I might play 99 more.

[BadAss84]

- You also seem to assume that Epic is dumb enough to not take any of this into consideration.
- You (and others) assume that nothing else in the game will change from 2k4 -> 2k7.

My vote... "Wait and See"


Thank you.

I said this when the news first came out about the dodge jump being removed, along with other people, and still other people don't seem to get it.

Some people still seem to think that 2k7 will be 2k4 but without dodge jump, which of course would be horrible with the current 2k4 scale, but that's obviously not what 2k7 is going to be. Why would anyone think that epic would make a big change such as this and not balance it in other areas?

We've already heard of such changes as faster run speed and better scaled maps (due to no dodge jump, increased gravity etc), so you likely won't need a move such as the dodge jump. As for the vehicle thing, i'm sure there will be other changes made so that people can avoid them just fine, you might even be able to run out of the way now due to the run speed, who knows?

As for the poll, i've played 99/2k3/2k4 and loved all three at some point, and my favourite would be 2k4, but i have no problem with removing the dodge jump because it will help a lot in fixing the dodgy map scale, and will, as said, help bring back more in your face combat.

And if these changes were to influence more people to stay with the game, therefore creating a larger community, then who am i or anyone else to complain?

I'm all for anything that could possibly give us a bigger and better community :)

[awaw]

I think you have to remove both though as far as I can recall theres no option to turn one off and keep the other on.

Well afaik that's because the reason double jumping and dodge jumping work is the same. If you're in the air and move slow enough in z-axis you're allowed to jump. Actually you can run off a cliff and then jump in the air if you're fast enough.

[Boksha]

Well afaik that's because the reason double jumping and dodge jumping work is the same. If you're in the air and move slow enough in z-axis you're allowed to jump. Actually you can run off a cliff and then jump in the air if you're fast enough. This happens accidentally quite often. Cause for much "Huh, why can't I doublejump?" situations, because you can only do one mid-air jump since your last contact with the ground. If you listen closely you can hear that the sound is different.

[BioHaZarD]

Intopic:Dodge jump should stay, and make the game faster ok?
[line]
==>
Offtopic
Where's the anticheat for 2007? Is that gonna be a good or some crap?
UNERALCONTEST:MAKE SOMETHING UNREAL 1k² $$ should go to cruicky and wormbo imo

[fuegerstef]

Where's the anticheat for 2007? Is that gonna be a good or some crap?

<= There is the Anticheat. It is called an active admin.

[Draco]

UNERALCONTEST:MAKE SOMETHING UNREAL 1k² $$ should go to cruicky and wormbo imo

that right there has to be one of the best things ive read on this forum in a long time, and its the truth as well. im not sure anyone in the ut comunity has worked that hard for so long to benifit us all as a whole.

[Nabla]

Well, I really love the DJ in 2k4 and doging itself is THE special thing for me in the UT series that make me stick with this game.

But quite a while I'm exactly with BadAss as I realized there is too much impact for this kind of move to a game design - to integrate it they basically have to make another game -> so no discussion for me (as ALL other dodge moves are still in, wich is important to me).

BUT: I've been playing this very fine DodgePro mod and a few special assault maps where trickjumping along with the DJ was essential and a hard to master fun for movement fanatics, so I could imagine that special maps from the community together with a DJ mutator would work ok outside the 'mainstream' game modes.

Offtopic: cruicky and wormbo aren't cruising around in an Epic sponsored sports car?? zomg wtf ;D

[graou]

Well, I really love the DJ in 2k4 and doging itself is THE special thing for me in the UT series that make me stick with this game.

Dodge jumping and wall dodging are the main attractions for me too.
Maybe a bit hard to master for new players but surely rewarding. :)

[iLL]

Dodge jumping and wall dodging are the main attractions for me too.
Maybe a bit hard to master for new players but surely rewarding. :)

Epic knows the bit hard to master part(hence its removal),but I am not sure they agree with the rewarding part as I and many do.

By my experiences 2k4s movements scare noobs because they will not put in the time to figure out how to execute them or read as explained on many websites.NO OTHER GAME that I know of has agility and acrobatic moves like 2k4 and thats why all of them bore the hell outta me.

I really don't think I could play if wall dodging and dodge jumping were yanked.We have been reduced to dodging,which is basically a bumped up strafe-blah:(

[Vezra]

I really don't think I could play if wall dodging and dodge jumping were yanked.We have been reduced to dodging,which is basically a bumped up strafe-blah:(

Well seeing as no other game has it either, I guess you won't be playing any FPS :(. But I don't think anyone plays the game "just" for dodge jumping and wall dodging. People will play it regardless and in time it will be forgotten. I for one am glad that only dodging is going to be in UT2007. The more like UT99 the better. :cool:

[Catana]

NO! The only thing UT needs is Dodging. That's it. No wall dodge, no dodge jumping. To much of this acrobat stuff is bad and it turned ALOT of people away from UT2k4. I think Epic made a very good decision in only having dodge this time around.

[Gregori]

NO! The only thing UT needs is Dodging. That's it. No wall dodge, no dodge jumping. To much of this acrobat stuff is bad and it turned ALOT of people away from UT2k4. I think Epic made a very good decision in only having dodge this time around.


Emm, Wall dodge and double jump are still in UT2k7! Only dodge jump was removed and rightfully so.

The movement system would feel too bare without wall dodge though.

[da ghost]

O
M
F
G

90% of the dodge-jump haters haven't played any Quake games.

It's too fast? play quake and come back to find that Ut99 movement is for the slow and retarded.

It's not realistic? Rockets that fly perfectly straight aren't realistic either. There's something called gravity that pulls them down, so they would have to angle up a little bit to fly straight. Speaking of gravity....

And tell me why is the gravity on FaceClassic stronger than the skyline/morpheus gravity even when you're farther away from the earth?

And tell me why is a sniper bullet traveling instantaneously realistic?

And if both you and your opponent are in the air and you shock primary him, he gets flown back but there's only a little bit of recoil on your side? How does THIS obey Newton's laws?

And how is it realistic that the announcer calls out HEADSHOT so quickly? His reactions sure are fast! Is he hax?!111

How is it realistic that there is no visible or physical damage that can be measured from 1-199 HP? why is it at 1 HP the player is PERFECTLY FINE, but then at 0 HP he explodes in a bunch of gibs?

Is it realistic that the coefficient of friction between the metal feet of robots and the metal floor is somehow sufficient to allow them to dodge or even to run?

Is it realistic that people RESPAWN?

Is it realistic that none of the guns obey the laws of physics?

Is it realistic that the acceleration of the link gun primary plasma is possible somehow without a magnetic field?

Is it realistic that you can jump and fire 3 or 6 rockets and have no recoil in midair? If that's possible in UT physics, then the double jump and dodgejump are also possible.

EDIT: the list goes on and on... :)

[Gregori]

O
M
F
G

90% of the dodge-jump haters haven't played any Quake games.

It's too fast? play quake and come back to find that Ut99 movement is for the slow and retarded.

It's not realistic? Rockets that fly perfectly straight aren't realistic either. There's something called gravity that pulls them down, so they would have to angle up a little bit to fly straight. Speaking of gravity....

And tell me why is the gravity on FaceClassic stronger than the skyline/morpheus gravity even when you're farther away from the earth?

And tell me why is a sniper bullet traveling instantaneously realistic?

And if both you and your opponent are in the air and you shock primary him, he gets flown back but there's only a little bit of recoil on your side? How does THIS obey Newton's laws?

And how is it realistic that the announcer calls out HEADSHOT so quickly? His reactions sure are fast! Is he hax?!111

How is it realistic that there is no visible or physical damage that can be measured from 1-199 HP? why is it at 1 HP the player is PERFECTLY FINE, but then at 0 HP he explodes in a bunch of gibs?

Is it realistic that the coefficient of friction between the metal feet of robots and the metal floor is somehow sufficient to allow them to dodge or even to run?

Is it realistic that people RESPAWN?

Is it realistic that none of the guns obey the laws of physics?

Is it realistic that the acceleration of the link gun primary plasma is possible somehow without a magnetic field?

Is it realistic that you can jump and fire 3 or 6 rockets and have no recoil in midair? If that's possible in UT physics, then the double jump and dodgejump are also possible.

EDIT: the list goes on and on... :)


Since your argument seems to be that nothing has to make any sense whatsoever in UT, I think the characters should be able to Fly!

Well that wouldn't make any sense for gameplay and neither does dodge jump in UT2k7 given new player/map scale!

[Body_Counter]

My feelings as a long time UT player is that without dodge jumping the scaling of the maps will be toned down which will increase the number of times you find yourself in a tight place and have to fight in close quarters... Which is what made UT such an intense game to play. I swear there was nothing better than walking down the shield belt corridor on DM-Liandri and having to fight off two players, one with a mini and the other with a RL in extremely tight quarters. It made the game more about outsmarting your opponent and less about floating at some unbelievable speed right over thier head by dodge-jumping and shooting them in the back.

UT's gameplay was much smarter in my opinion than 2k4 and made you think about tricking your opponent and becoming proficient with the weapons. 2k4's movement emphasised a kind of keep-away game and never appealed to me in any way.

Think about how much harder it is to be going for the powerups in UT, in close quarters and having to fight someone while the both of you have rocket launchers. Not only are you forced to face your opponent and use intellegence to beat him, but you also have to play against the map so that you don't kill yourself with splash damage.

Without dodge-jumping gameplay will be faster, more hectic and a hell of a lot more fun. :)

jep, thats it. i even guess that crappy dodge jumping was the reason why i played ut99 for years, and ut2k4 only for months.

in ut2k3 / 4 there were included many new nice elements... the wall dodging is nice, just like the double jump gives additional fun.
sadly the dodgejump had too bad side effects, although it seemed fun at first. modulus described the reasons well, ut99 had much more intense combat... i really like the way, ut2007 seems to go

[iLL]

Well seeing as no other game has it either, I guess you won't be playing any FPS :(. But I don't think anyone plays the game "just" for dodge jumping and wall dodging. People will play it regardless and in time it will be forgotten. I for one am glad that only dodging is going to be in UT2007. The more like UT99 the better. :cool:

You are correct,NO OTHER GAME HAS IT,and imho thats why they bore the crap out of me and 2k4 owns the hell out of them.Many hate 2k4 movement,but from my experiences its one of the things that turns them on about the game.

When I PLAYED other fps's running and or sprinting feels like speedwalking.
Jumping feels like hopping or kind of a panzy ass skip.

The so called "jumps" in HL2,Q4,Prey,Doom3, and endless other FPS are just a little hopscotch skip,not an athletic leap or lunge as they should be.The movement kills those games.

Yeah everything else about the above titles turns me on-weps,effects,environments,etc.,but it does not matter if you are
skipping around the map at max 3 mph,with max jump height of 2 feet,and a max dodge distance of 2 feet at 3 mph.They're all the same.Its about time someone raised the bar and made things faster,harder,and more intense.

Those games also have strafing and no dodge.Whoopee.A little jot(morelike sidestep)to the side of about 3 feet.Then back the other way.Hmm what next?Perhaps back the other way?Maybe I will throw a hop in too.That should stump him.Boring.

Now w/2k4- Hmm will he strafe right,strafe left,dodge left,dodge right,single jump,double jump,wall dodge,dodge jump?Which do you think is harder to predict what my next move will be?Hell some characters even flip and cartwheel in mid air.Makes things a little tougher now doesn't it?

If you have ever watched gymnastics or freestyle running it proves ut2k4's movements listed above are pheasible.

I played 99 for years and the game is awesome yes,but why go back in time and to match what ever other fps game has in terms of movement options.
Its been nearly a DECADE and I cannot believe people still want 6 moves(ll,rr,ff,bb,duck and jump)as their options for movement.Boring!

I wish those people would just admit that its way harder to earn a frag with
2k4's movement and thats why they want UT99's movement back.

I do not agree about people playing the game regardless and in time it will be forgotten about.2k4 proved that.Alot of 99ers did not like the moves,so what did they do?Play regardless and forget about it,NO.
They just went back to 99.

I was a hardcore 99er too,and when I first started 2k4 it was awkward at first.I just adapted and eventually I came to realize that a game that was the total sh*t to begin with,just became the mother of all FPS with the added new abilities in movements.Or I guess you could say,I "played it regardless and in time I forgot about UT99's movements". ;)

Thank God Epic is not completely noobifying the movement though.Wall Dodge and Double Jump still in I believe.Sorry to bring you that bad news.

[ShredPrince]

All I know is I played UT99 and was like : whatever.

When I played UT03 I did the dodge jump, and was hooked.

Im not playing.

Dodge Jump Lightning Gun, Shield Gun, and Insta Gib are what make Unreal "Unreal" for me.

The comparison to it be like flying is retarded.

The fact of the matter is the game is being DUMMBED DOWN!!
PERIOD!

IF you think thats good, then fine.

I'd have to disagree, and say your probably a near sighted, fat, sweaty noob.

[MonsOlympus]

Originally posted by iLL
I was a hardcore 99er too,and when I first started 2k4 it was awkward at first.I just adapted and eventually I came to realize that a game that was the total sh*t to begin with,just became the mother of all FPS with the added new abilities in movements.Or I guess you could say,I "played it regardless and in time I forgot about UT99's movements".

I think you hit the nail on the head with that one, alot of people never took the time to really look at 2k3 or 2k4. I still go back and forth between the ut games and am dazed at how similar things can be. The only new move Ive ever had anything against is the dodge jump and thats because the running speed was slow enough that it makes dodge jumping more important to master.

The first time I ever saw wall dodging I was like wtf was that, can I do that, I then tried offline in behind view to find out how to do it. I eventually became aware of how to do it and I use it more than I do dodge jump. I wish there were a few more levels which took advantage of wall dodging because the move has alot of potential. Im all for keeping 2k4's movement as long as its done right and works better this time, running should be able to get you by until you learn them!

[graou]

The way I feel about it has to do with what I consider FPS evolution is.

Started with old Wolfenstein ages ago, Doom came in and conquered, Descent introduced the amazing z-axis (not sure about historical events, talking about personal experience) and finally Quake and UT99 gave us the fastpace. 2k4 movement was the cherry on top that made everything else kinda boring for me.

OK, scaling is an important thing to consider too, but reducing movement capabilities is not what I call "evolving".

And to be honest I like 2k4 scaling. True "athletic leaps or lunges" as iLL described can produce "on-your-head" frags and are more exciting to me than the supposed "in-your-face" feeling reduced scaling might provide.

[Zofo]

I agree with ill, the movement in UT2004 is what seperates it from other fps games, ground it more yes for sure but remove it....id have to say no, hopefully UT2007 wont be just like any other fps games except prettier, im putting my faith in you Epic, don't let me down now ;)

[Kharnellius]

I'd have to disagree, and say your probably a near sighted, fat, sweaty noob.

How'd you know? :eek:


Oh well. It was bound to degenerate into a flame war. You're the winner of the thread. :rolleyes:


O
M
F
G

90% of the dodge-jump haters haven't played any Quake games.

It's too fast? play quake and come back to find that Ut99 movement is for the slow and retarded.

It's not realistic? Rockets that fly perfectly straight aren't realistic either. There's something called gravity that pulls them down, so they would have to angle up a little bit to fly straight. Speaking of gravity....

And tell me why is the gravity on FaceClassic stronger than the skyline/morpheus gravity even when you're farther away from the earth?

And tell me why is a sniper bullet traveling instantaneously realistic?

And if both you and your opponent are in the air and you shock primary him, he gets flown back but there's only a little bit of recoil on your side? How does THIS obey Newton's laws?

And how is it realistic that the announcer calls out HEADSHOT so quickly? His reactions sure are fast! Is he hax?!111

How is it realistic that there is no visible or physical damage that can be measured from 1-199 HP? why is it at 1 HP the player is PERFECTLY FINE, but then at 0 HP he explodes in a bunch of gibs?

Is it realistic that the coefficient of friction between the metal feet of robots and the metal floor is somehow sufficient to allow them to dodge or even to run?

Is it realistic that people RESPAWN?

Is it realistic that none of the guns obey the laws of physics?

Is it realistic that the acceleration of the link gun primary plasma is possible somehow without a magnetic field?

Is it realistic that you can jump and fire 3 or 6 rockets and have no recoil in midair? If that's possible in UT physics, then the double jump and dodgejump are also possible.

EDIT: the list goes on and on... :)
What's your point? Did you even read the thread? No one is saying UT is not unrealistic. I have played Quake 3 and think its a pretty damn cool game. On some counts I wish UT would copy some of the things they DO in Q3.

But that's completely besides the point. What we are talking about is the impact DodgeJump has had on:

1) Gameplay
2) Map Design
3) Learning Curve

The developers have already explained how it affected all three and their reasoning makes complete sense to me as to why they wish to remove it.

Dodge, Wall Dodge, and Double Jump will remain in.

[Aldgazar]

why would anyone want to remove double* jump? I mean come on, who wants to be slow.

*My bad. I meant dodgejump. And no I don't dodgejump while trading shots with someone, but to get around the level faster, mostly ONS and CTF maps.

[ShredPrince]

i was not entirely serious: text is so constraining.

[fuegerstef]

why would anyone want to remove double jump? I mean come on who wants to be slow.

Don't tell me you are one of those who double jump to be faster... :P

[Boksha]

why would anyone want to remove double jump? I mean come on who wants to be slow. People that... double... jump?
I think you meant dodgejump there. Even so, dodgejumping really only increases your average speed... it also greatly increases the chances of your enemy landing his next shot.

[Nabla]

I wonder how many people seeing this thread as NW players, and how the DJ is applied in their gaming style, from my perspective as an iCTF player only (yeah, kind of narrow) u use DJ if no one is around because it's your certain death, or u backward DJing with the flag and use your well predictable parabolic flight to hit followers, as they're bit more excited to return the flag and hit mostly less good.

Or if you're respawned and DJ fast to the action, maybe to continue your cover - that's really often. Without DJ the flag carrier has a harder time I think, but it's as I said from iCTF pov.

[da ghost]

No, it should not stay. And the wepons need to be a lot more powerful.

Think UT99.
This was Epic's greatest work. Build on that.

............no

[BigJim]

Even so, dodgejumping really only increases your average speed... it also greatly increases the chances of your enemy landing his next shot.

Agreed - and that imo also helps to make it very balanced.

Ok, you can get a decent boost of speed, but at the same time it limits your manouverability and makes you that bit more predictable, perfect! :)
In this game being predictable is often worse than being a bit slower.

You don't *have* to dodge-jump everywhere (although that said I usually do :rolleyes: :p), and I've been trashed by better players who didn't dodgejump once (at least not while I was looking), but were hard to hit like a fly on amphetamins.

[Boksha]

Agreed - and that imo also helps to make it very balanced. It IS actually very balanced, but IMO it's also really easy to figure out (thus not adding any significant depth to the game) and messes with other things like map scale and the role hitscan plays in the game.

Note; when I say it's easy to figure out I meant it's fairly easy to set up simple rules for when to dodgejump and when not to, to get the most out of it.
Currently I (subconsciously, probably) only dodgejump if nobody's around, I'm running away from someone or I need the dodgejump to get across a gap or on top of a ledge during a fight. I use dodges otherwise.


You don't *have* to dodge-jump everywhere (although that said I usually do :rolleyes: :p), and I've been trashed by better players who didn't dodgejump once (at least not while I was looking), but were hard to hit like a fly on amphetamins. Actually you're probably more likely to get trashed by players that don't dodgejump during fights. I find that the less I dodgejump in actual melee and long range battles, the less I get hit, and as such dodgejumping really only gives an advantage if you do it outside of battles to lend some extra speed for powerup control, ambushes or simply getting away from people (like an FC getting away from flagchasers).

[Scylla]

What's your point? Did you even read the thread? No one is saying UT is not unrealistic. I have played Quake 3 and think its a pretty damn cool game. On some counts I wish UT would copy some of the things they DO in Q3.

Most people don't like the dodge or double jump because it's "too unrealistic". They think it's stupid to dodge off the air. da ghost has just gone through some of the things which are unreal, so if you don't like dodge or double jump because it's too unreal for you, you might as well stop playing UT altogether.

[Gregori]

Most people don't like the dodge or double jump because it's "too unrealistic". They think it's stupid to dodge off the air. da ghost has just gone through some of the things which are unreal, so if you don't like dodge or double jump because it's too unreal for you, you might as well stop playing UT altogether.


Most people actually hate it for what it does to the maps and gameplay.


Being 'unrealistic' is just a minor complaint that can be explained away with magical jet thrusters in the player's armour UC2 style.

[Kharnellius]

What Gregori said.


Most people don't like the dodge or double jump because it's "too unrealistic". They think it's stupid to dodge off the air. da ghost has just gone through some of the things which are unreal, so if you don't like dodge or double jump because it's too unreal for you, you might as well stop playing UT altogether.

I don't know if I have ever heard anyone complain about dodge. Dodge makes sense.

So that leaves dodge jump. My reasons for disliking it have already been stated.

The unrealistic part doesn't bother me that much. The same goes for most who dislike the DJ....like Gregori said. Not many have even complained about it in this thread. That is why I asked if he read the thread. Not many were really ranting on about its "unrealistic"-ness (for lack of a better word).

So what was his point?

[Wail of Suicide]

I haven't seen anyone yet complain about dodgejump solely because it's unrealistic. That the "unrealistic" issue comes up is because it's an easy to express criticism of a feature that negatively impacts the game in more ways than most people know how to articulate.

[Gregori]

What Gregori said.



I don't know if I have ever heard anyone complain about dodge. Dodge makes sense.

So that leaves dodge jump. My reasons for disliking it have already been stated.

The unrealistic part doesn't bother me that much. The same goes for most who dislike the DJ....like Gregori said. Not many have even complained about it in this thread. That is why I asked if he read the thread. Not many were really ranting on about its "unrealistic"-ness (for lack of a better word).

So what was his point?


Scylla is trying to discredit peoples argument aginst dodge jump by implying that its a superficial argument merely based on the move looking silly.
The real argument against it is that it breaks the gameplay and maps, makes very hard for new people or casual gamers to enjoy this game.

[iLL]

The real argument against dodge jumping is that it breaks the gameplay and maps, makes very hard for new people or casual gamers to enjoy this game.

Any noob should be able to grasp dodge jumping along with wall dodging in a hour or two in instant action with the help of 3rd person.Its not rocket science.My 12 year old son picked it up in a day and after a week had it down enough that he uses it in every other battle and almost all of the time to get from point A to B faster.

It does not BREAK gameplay,it ADDS IT.

Casual gamers to me mean,above noob in skill(close to average).
So as I have stated above,if a noob can do it in a day or two,theres no reason why a casual gamer should have any problem with it.

Dodging has always been in UT which is ll or rr.You're telling me that adding another button (jump) into the mix it confuses everyone and makes it so out of reach.

Nah,I don't think so.

[Gregori]

Any noob should be able to grasp dodge jumping along with wall dodging in a hour or two in instant action with the help of 3rd person.Its not rocket science.My 12 year old son picked it up in a day and after a week had it down enough that he uses it in every other battle and almost all of the time to get from point A to B faster.

It does not BREAK gameplay,it ADDS IT.

Casual gamers to me mean,above noob in skill(close to average).
So as I have stated above,if a noob can do it in a day or two,theres no reason why a casual gamer should have any problem with it.

Dodging has always been in UT which is ll or rr.You're telling me that adding another button (jump) into the mix it confuses everyone and makes it so out of reach.

Nah,I don't think so.



It breaks the gameplay by making into Unreal-Distance Tournament, maps aren't as tight, quick and fun as they were in UT99, maps have to be blown up to cartoonish dimension to actually work with these movements, which makes the maps horrible to play in, full of empty space and thourougly hitscan dominant. Thats no fun, It makes one style of long distance fighting work better in all maps rather than having a mix of different combat distances and styles. You can call people noob all you want (pretty sad if you ask me), Even Epic has stated about how many players didn't even know about the dodge jump existing, its not as if it was in the manual or anything.


So I'd have say sure dodge jump ADDs!, It adds to turning UT into Unreal Distance Hitscan Tournament!

[Scylla]

People don't like having to practice with projectiles. They want to click and get a frag. They also want to go "HAHAHAHA GIBS!!!", and if there isn't any even once they complain about it.

If you are any good at the game then you can hit people with projectiles, but that takes a bit of practice.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A ****ING "PRO" TO KILL SOMEONE WITH A ROCKET LAUNCHER OR FLAK!!




I'm going to laugh when people still complain about hitscan dominance though. Or flak dominance.

[ShredPrince]

yup...fact is most cannot deal with the additional feature of an added jump...AHHH gamebreaker: yeah ok

[EntropicLqd]

....I'm going to laugh when people still complain about hitscan dominance though. Or flak dominance.
In my experience as soon as there is more than one weapon, people will complain about the weapons being imbalanced or for noobs/spammers/pros/etc.

Heck, I was even playing Sniper arena one time and someone asked, "How come your sniper rifle fires faster than my sniper rifle?".

[Scylla]

Heck, I was even playing Sniper arena one time and someone asked, "How come your sniper rifle fires faster than my sniper rifle?".

lol.....:D

[iLL]

It breaks the gameplay by making into Unreal-Distance Tournament, maps aren't as tight, quick and fun as they were in UT99, maps have to be blown up to cartoonish dimension to actually work with these movements, which makes the maps horrible to play in, full of empty space and thourougly hitscan dominant. Thats no fun, It makes one style of long distance fighting work better in all maps rather than having a mix of different combat distances and styles. You can call people noob all you want (pretty sad if you ask me), Even Epic has stated about how many players didn't even know about the dodge jump existing, its not as if it was in the manual or anything.


So I'd have say sure dodge jump ADDs!, It adds to turning UT into Unreal Distance Hitscan Tournament!

We could go on all year long.I think we know you like 99s movements while I prefer 2k4.
According to my experiences there are many maps played that are not all wide open and hitscan dominated as you say.Many have a combo of narrow and wide hallways,along with big arenas adjoined by smaller rooms,and so on.

In those tight areas players seem to be using flak,rocket,bio,shock and not all LG hitscan dominant as you imply.When in a big arena and at a long distance you would be foolish to rely on any other weapon but lg and shock primary.

Prediction weapons(rox,flak,bio,combos) are for close to mid range combat and plenty of maps have areas for that.I like the maps to have both tight knit quarters as well as open areas as I see now with 2k4.

However if the maps are scaled down and theres less room to move along with dialed down movement it makes fragging easier which is want you and some 99ers want from what I gather.

It will just make fraggin that much easier for 2k4 players who are used to having to track their enemies movements much more closely instead of 99 where you know a player can only max move in any direction about 8 feet or less.

Another reply on you Epic comment.
If alot of players did not know dodge jumping existed-How the hell could they complain about it helping to ruin the game?

In closing you view the word noob as an insult because thats how it used on you I guess.To me,noob is short for new player also I am a grown man and name calling really doesn't bother me I just don't participate in it.

Its a matter of context.Notice how in all my posts I say 99ers and noobs.Never once did I refer to a 99 player as a "noob" which is how you view the word,an insult.
Hell I was a 99 player for years and yes when I started I was a noob.I am not going to type out "new player" in every post just so I do not rub someone the wrong way.I would be willing to say newbie though,if it makes you feel more comfortable.;)

Name calling is for the kiddies and I never meant any negativity by it and I think most new players know they are newbies and are not offended by it,because its the truth.

[Xyx]

Many have a combo of narrow and wide hallways,along with big arenas adjoined by smaller rooms,and so on.
What is your perspective of "narrow"? In my perspective, a hallway is narrow when two people cannot easily walk side by side. Name me an UT200X map with such hallways.


If alot of players did not know dodge jumping existed-How the hell could they complain about it helping to ruin the game?
Because other people used circus moves to keep away from them. They may not know it is called "dodgejump" or that it requires a rapid sequence of three keystrokes, but they can still tell if they like it or not.


I am a grown man
For a grown man you come across quite immature. I've seen 15-year-olds with a more mature forum attitude. You may disagree, but maturity is in the eye of the beholder.

[Nabla]

Xyx I agree, so #care with your thoughts about immaturity

[*BareVibes*]

Take Dodge Jumping Out. Bring the Map scaling back to how it was with UT... You get a much more enjoyable experience... No flying cirucs, no extra extra Large maps.

Please no more extra extra large maps for DM. It completely destroys the the experience.

[Scylla]

Why does everyone against dodge jumping call it a "circus move"?

I've never heard of anyone doing ANYTHING like that (in the real world).

[iLL]

What is your perspective of "narrow"? In my perspective, a hallway is narrow when two people cannot easily walk side by side. Name me an UT200X map with such hallways.


Because other people used circus moves to keep away from them. They may not know it is called "dodgejump" or that it requires a rapid sequence of three keystrokes, but they can still tell if they like it or not.


For a grown man you come across quite immature. I've seen 15-year-olds with a more mature forum attitude. You may disagree, but maturity is in the eye of the beholder.

My idea of narrow would be any hallway you cannot fully do a wall dodge in from side to side.

Any area of a map where 2 people cannot walk side by side just shouldn't be.At minimum 2 people should fit standing side by side.

As far as maps I do not believe its worth my time to go looking,and our definitions of narrow are different.
But off the top of my head-
Chrome has numerous tight areas,Corrugations Sewer Tunnels,Curses Sniper Corridor,Most of the weapon areas in Inferno,A few places in Injector and Irondeity,Leviathons ramps(fencing shadow projected),Rankin 50A to name a few.

Also you calling 2k4s movements "circus moves" is also in the eye of the beholder as well.

You may think I am immature and you can flame all you wish,but I think it really just boils down to you not being able to hang with 2k4's movements and having to return to a game (left behind) where you can shoot down a huge number of hallways in many of the maps with 6 rockets and flak spray and almost guarantee a hit or frag because of the lessened movement,stronger weapons and splash damage radius, and tighter quarters.

I would respect you more if you would just admit that fragging is much harder in 2k4 and thats why you prefer the moves and map scale of 99.

To this day I still applaud Epic for breaking the blandness of all fps shooters basic 6 button movement options and raising the bar.

Epic said you will get your way in 2k7 and that should bring a smile to your face.

If you think I am immature for making some valid points that quite a few might agree with then I think you are just taking the easy way out.This would make sense since you want the easier game options for the future of UT.

I guess everyone who enjoys UT2k4's movements is immature because they run circles around you or what?

No matter what its just preference.I prefer the moves no other game has and you prefer movements simple,matching that of most other fps's and maps tight,just about the width of 3 rocket spray and flak pepper it sounds like.
You're not alone.

Have the last word.You and Gregori just don't get it.

[Gregori]

Why does everyone against dodge jumping call it a "circus move"?

I've never heard of anyone doing ANYTHING like that (in the real world).


You're trying to dodge the 'it breaks the gameplay' argument by bringing up the mostly superficial point that it looks 'circus-like' then and pretending that is the main thing that people have against it. Thats very far from the truth.

[Scylla]

You're trying to dodge the 'it breaks the gameplay' argument by bringing up the mostly superficial point that it looks 'circus-like' then and pretending that is the main thing that people have against it. Thats very far from the truth.

What the hell are you on about? I said NOTHING about that being the main point. I only queried why people call it circus moves. Try to read someone's post before you go quoting it and making yourself look like a fool.

There is no point in me going over the same things again (like you keep doing). As iLL said, you will never get the other side of the argument.

[Gregori]

What the hell are you on about? I said NOTHING about that being the main point. I only queried why people call it circus moves. Try to read someone's post before you go quoting it and making yourself look like a fool.

There is no point in me going over the same things again (like you keep doing). As iLL said, you will never get the other side of the argument.


Most people don't like the dodge or double jump because it's "too unrealistic". They think it's stupid to dodge off the air.


As soon as you said this, it made you look foolish! Its seems you don't like reading other peoples posts either.

[Scylla]

Yet again you have misinturpreted my post.

That was one of the reasons that most people don't like it.

P.S. It took you long enough to make a reply as feeble as that.

[*BareVibes*]

Point is Remove dodge jumping, get the map size back to how it was in UT.

[Gregori]

Yet again you have inturpreted my post.

That was one of the reasons that most people don't like it.

P.S. It took you long enough to make a reply as feeble as that.

Yet again you talk **** when you've been found out to be wrong and people have correctly interpeted your posts. There is no negotiating around the fact that you've have wrongley been accusing most of forums posters of hating this move for purely aestethic reasons rather than gameplay. If you even read the thread, you'll find that this aspect of the dodge jump is barely mentioned, the biggest complaint is the gameplay impact of this move.

I would hardly call it 'one of the reasons MOST people don't like it', because most people here haven't even mentioned it here.

[Gregori]

Point is Remove dodge jumping, get the map size back to how it was in UT.


Well something more or less similar to UT99!

Nothing as ridiculous as UT2k4 ever again though, dodge jump isn't a skill in UT2k4, it a requirement to move around the maps!

[Jake-SF]

Yet again you talk **** when you've been found out to be wrong and people have correctly interpeted your posts. There is no negotiating around the fact that you've have wrongley been accusing most of forums posters of hating this move for purely aestethic reasons rather than gameplay. If you even read the thread, you'll find that this aspect of the dodge jump is barely mentioned, the biggest complaint is the gameplay impact of this move.

I would hardly call it 'one of the reasons MOST people don't like it', because most people here haven't even mentioned it here.
Calm down, he did nothing bad and only pointed something about the circus move (he simply didn't liked dodge jump to be called like that I guess, because its nowhere related) and how dodge jump is too unreal and its a reason why people don't like it...

And your not doing any better than him, hell I heard MANY TIMES people saying stuff like "it feels weird to jump from nowhere in the air" and that things of thing - that mean it feels unreal, and his point was true.

Now I only want things to be civilized, and if you still want to argue against him you guys should do it somewhere else.

[BrokenRythm]

ooooo so much hostility


I honestly think that when people actually PLAY the game, they will see that regular dodging will more than suffice and forget about dodge jumping all together.

[Gregori]

Calm down, he did nothing bad and only pointed something about the circus move (he simply didn't liked dodge jump to be called like that I guess, because its nowhere related) and how dodge jump is too unreal and its a reason why people don't like it...

And your not doing any better than him, hell I heard MANY TIMES people saying stuff like "it feels weird to jump from nowhere in the air" and that things of thing - that mean it feels unreal, and his point was true.

Now I only want things to be civilized, and if you still want to argue against him you guys should do it somewhere else.


He should have read the thread, instead of making false and exagerated claims about what forumers think!;)


Anyway, I agree with BrokenRythm here, once UT2k7 is out I don't think Dodge Jump will be missed at all!

[Xyx]

Why does everyone against dodge jumping call it a "circus move"?
Because the term "circus" accurately describes the whole range of "improvements" UT2003 brought to the series: bright colors, sportsy ambience, MMMMMMr Crow, people flying around at various angles. An acrobatic freakshow compared to the gritty dark future grudgematch that was UT99.


My idea of narrow would be any hallway you cannot fully do a wall dodge in from side to side.
That'd be about two car lanes.


Also you calling 2k4s movements "circus moves" is also in the eye of the beholder as well.
Absolutely.


I would respect you more if you would just admit that fragging is much harder in 2k4 and thats why you prefer the moves and map scale of 99.
I wholeheartedly agree that fragging is harder and I do prefer the map scale of 99. I also like 2004's movement options, even the dodgejump. I just think they've been overdone, ruining what made UT99 great.

Mind you, the UT200X games are not the only FPS games with more than 6 movement buttons. Some of the "slow" games have stuff like going prone, sprinting or rolling.


If you think I am immature for making some valid points that quite a few might agree with then I think you are just taking the easy way out.
It is not the points you make but the way you make them.


Have the last word.
Ah, the cheap ploy of asking questions and then offering the last word in false grandeur. A double-edged knife. Answering implies childish desire to have the last word, not answering implies agreement. So be it, I shall brave your trap and not bite my tongue. Your maturity speaks for itself, of course.

[Boksha]

I honestly think that when people actually PLAY the game, they will see that regular dodging will more than suffice and forget about dodge jumping all together. Quoted for truth.
When it comes to dodging projectiles, regular dodges are already plenty sufficient in UT2004.
Like I've argued before, dodgejumps really only serve to move faster outside of fights, to hop over otherwise unclearable gaps and to get out of fights quicker. The former two really mess with mapdesign, and the latter (in combination with the mapdesign issue) make the game much more hitscan dominated and slower paced than necessary.

iLL: while it's true there are some maps with tight areas (although not nearly as tight as many of the areas in UT, and much less as many) it's just a lot harder to get those to work properly in UT2004 than it is in UT. Curse3, which came with UT2003, was left out of UT2004 (in favour of Curse4) because people complained about it being too tight, even though it was a lot more spaceous than the UT version (Curse][)

And yes Scylla, it's true you CAN still use projectile weapons to great effect in UT2004. However, it is just much easier to just concentrate on hitscan weapons and get good match results much earlier on. In TDM, whenever someone collects the double damage, his teammates will frequently trade their hitscan weapons for splash weapons with him, simply because the former are much easier to use, thus letting the DD'd player use the double damage to maximum effect. I know in most maps in UT I'd much rather have an amped flak or mini than an amped sniper rifle or shockrifle, and in UT2004 it's simply the other way around, which is not a good thing IMO.

[Scylla]

I would hardly call it 'one of the reasons MOST people don't like it', because most people here haven't even mentioned it here.

You don't seem to be getting it. The emphasis is on the word "ONE". I don't mean "the main reason people hate it is because of the unrealistic look".

[Gregori]

Why does everyone against dodge jumping call it a "circus move"?




Most people don't like the dodge or double jump because it's "too unrealistic".


I might not be great with grammar, but I'm phased as to how else one interprets statements like this!

Clearly not everyone who is against the aforementioned dodge jump has even mentioned these things a reason why they dislike it, read the thread if you wish to see for yourself.


Maybe you just over emphasised the word 'Most'.

[Hedge-o-Matic]

My main concern is that of momentum, which, at the moment, there's noneof. Players (and especially bots) can change their direction 180 degrees without any intermediate slowing. Thus, when you drop a flag or something, a bot can blink over in mid-stride and collect it, all without slowing a bit.

Not cool. All the fancy graphics in the world can't hide this sort of weak interaction.

[Gregori]

My main concern is that of momentum, which, at the moment, there's noneof. Players (and especially bots) can change their direction 180 degrees without any intermediate slowing. Thus, when you drop a flag or something, a bot can blink over in mid-stride and collect it, all without slowing a bit.

Not cool. All the fancy graphics in the world can't hide this sort of weak interaction.


They're not going to make you slow while turning in a twitch shooter, turning 180 instantly is part of these types of games.

[Boksha]

My main concern is that of momentum, which, at the moment, there's noneof. Players (and especially bots) can change their direction 180 degrees without any intermediate slowing. Thus, when you drop a flag or something, a bot can blink over in mid-stride and collect it, all without slowing a bit.

Not cool. All the fancy graphics in the world can't hide this sort of weak interaction. You see, there's this little thing called friction... :p

Standing still after landing from a jump isn't all that unrealistic. Having aircontrol is, but the game would be pretty hard to control if there was none of that.

[Xyx]

HL2 has a bit of momentum. Drives some people crazy.

Air control is just a way of letting people make precise jumps.

[MonsOlympus]

I find hl2 feels like ice, theres not enough friction to the ground. If they wanted to use momentum you'd expect to hit the ground and loose part then slowly loose the rest unless you are still moving forward. To me its nothing more than an attempt at momentum not really wieght from the character being used to conserve momentum. If Ive got that right :p

Edit: I guess Im thinking along the lines of prince of persia lolz

[Omniety]

This is an extremely interesting subject. I for one come from a very large background of first person shooters, starting in Quake1 and UT99/Quake2. I've been playing first person shooters for almost ten years. I've been keeping up since then. Last year me and some buddies got sponsored went down to Texas (I live In Calgary Alberta, Canada) for the Winter CPL Quake4 tourney. With only about 512 players registered for the tournament I thought the turnout was quite poor for a CPL.

I think this is largely on part with the games either not making enough changes and/or modifications to keep the gameplay interesting or failing to make the changes made from a previous version to new version aimed towards the game designers target audience.

I think the removal of this movement is both a good and bad thing.

Bad in the sense it alienates hardcore players which like to use every resource available as an aid to the tyranical dominance of the server. A high percentage of players (lets say 95%+) who dodge jump will find themselves beating players which do not utlilize this function. Moreover, the key feature or reasoning of this design by epic was in attempt to capitalize on the stale state of other FPS's which did not plan on releasing new titles. For one, upon UT2K3's release Epic successfully captured many of the "Quake" series players. As anyone who has ever played the Quake series, with the many popular "hardcore" features such as with turn on a dime physics, texture doublejumping and strafe jumping and now with quake4 and crouch slide physics which lead to "across the level" movement in a matter of seconds. UT2K3/4 became a hardcore gamers dream or holiday away from Quake.

UT2K3, which was definately the most hardcore of all featured Unreal Tournaments featured many things which appealed to the "hardcore gamer" such as the "boost/bug" jump.. which im quite sure many of you have not heard of or mastered where as you tap away from the wall once, then jump then tap away from the wall in an almost instantaneous movement which allows you to jump 3 times in succession as apposed to the regular "double jump/dodge jump" or the dodge away from the wall and jump combinations. Also the fact you could do this on maps like Compressed, jump off of elevators to boost jump to the wall on the way up to hit the top of the level, or jump from the 50 armor area below all the way up to the grating just below the damage amp. Not to mention the weapon switch was near instantanious.. with the combination of "LG+Shock" which allowed someone to Pull out LG, and fire, switch to shock and fire while the cooldown of lg is resetting, then instantly pull out LG and fire again. This feature did make the ranged combat quite a bit easier than close quarters because hitscan can be more reliable and can output equal or more damage per second than any combination of area of effect weapons. Then again when "Minigun lockdown" effect was on that was even more broken, haha.

UT2K4 is quite balanced between ranged and close/medium combat. It got rid of the effectiveness of lg+shock+lg combinations and increased the time to switch weapons. Also no good player will intentionally get into combat with another good player without having the two weapon combination archtypes. EG LG/Flak, LG/Rocket, etc. Shock/Flak, etc. A Good player who has the advantage fights to get closer to their opponents in an attempt to chain frag. Chainfragging does not work overly well in UT2k3/4 due to the shield gun's (which more than doubles your survivability) defensive abilities.

I would say on most maps its about 50-60% far and 40-50% close or midranged combat. That is typical because you cannot be on top of your enemy all the time, as well the person whos stacked and has won the fight for the powerups will naturally cause the other player to stay away and poke the other player down a peg in order to score some powerups for himself/herself. I Heard before people commented on unreal tournament 2003/4 is more "spammy", attempting to provide correlation between faster movement and more misses leads to more spam. This is the most flawed logic, because the act of spam is not derived from more sporatic movement, its derived from firing the weapon more in the hopes you hit someone or get a kill.

Also people said sporatic movement in UT2k4 leads to more misses and less reliablility on the weapon.. anyone who has watched clans like mTw, SK, Kaizen, Check6, or players like TMO or forest use area effect weapon like flak or rocket know that the weapons reliability depends on the skill of the player, and properly anticipated rockets or flak are extremely effective and deadly. I've seen and participated in skilled matches where a skilled player beat another skilled player with 80% use of the flak cannon.

Also players which posted earlier about not using the functionality of "Dodge Jump" and intentionally rationalizing its use by refering to it as a "circus jump" because it can come across silly or unrealistic really make me stop and scratch my head. Thats like saying "I could play good, but I decided because I either look stupid, or have to press a button in succession instead of just riding it that it is just not worth the effort to BE good". I for one will never understand this menality, I also think that these players convince themselves they cannot do it or are physically incapable of it because nobody likes playing a game at half their potential. You might as well just select your handicap at 45-55% while you are at it. Non-dodge jumpers constantly find themselves b itching about dodge jumpers, yes.. the movement is counter intuitive and unrealistic. But! Its implimentation makes Unreal Tournament unique.

I previously thought FPS's were getting faster as they go, but from the "bad" perspective with the removal of dodge jump it will turn the deathmatch side of the UT2k7 to a bit faster version of counterstrike, featuring brief movement enhancers (wall jump and jump pads), area effect weapons, respawns during a match and powerups and as counterstrike works.. camping will also be more of an issue in ut2k7 where it is a non issue in ut2k4.

The good? Theres is plenty, of good things. It of course levels the playing field, extremely good players in UT2k4 will now only equal a "good" player. There will be less of this 30 kills 0 deaths stuff going around (which I admit I will miss :( ). However it will make the game more user friendly which will lead to a smaller learning curve, because as everyone knows anyone can get a kill in counterstrike against a good player.. the same does not hold true in Unreal Tournament 2k3-4 series. There in general will just be more players. So overall, i am for the removal of this feature just for the sole reason there will be more players, hence a bigger community which means more players for me to kill.

Though don't expect me not to cry when someones rocket spamming a corner turn of a tight cooridor... and I cannot whip around the corner instantly and be halfway into the enemys face to provide him with my gift of a rocket facial like ut2k3/4.. and instead I have to give up, suck it up and go another way to get to him. I will also miss the 40+ angled antalus jumps :(

Such as life.

[Xyx]

Very interesting post otherwise, but this part I think you misunderstood.


Also players which posted earlier about not using the functionality of "Dodge Jump" and intentionally rationalizing its use by refering to it as a "circus jump" because it can come across silly or unrealistic really make me stop and scratch my head. Thats like saying "I could play good, but I decided because I either look stupid, or have to press a button in succession instead of just riding it that it is just not worth the effort to BE good".The "circus move" label does indicate the silliness of the dodgejump's off-thin-air hop, but I can't remember ever hearing that someone that knows of it wouldn't use it.

[Omniety]

My roommate for instance knows of boost jump but finds it too difficult to consistantly use, he feels it screws his gaming center of gravity.

Translation=IRn00b.

[ShredPrince]

This is an extremely interesting subject. I for one come from a very large background of first person shooters, starting in Quake1 and UT99/Quake2. I've been playing first person shooters for almost ten years. I've been keeping up since then. Last year me and some buddies got sponsored went down to Texas (I live In Calgary Alberta, Canada) for the Winter CPL Quake4 tourney. With only about 512 players registered for the tournament I thought the turnout was quite poor for a CPL.

I think this is largely on part with the games either not making enough changes and/or modifications to keep the gameplay interesting or failing to make the changes made from a previous version to new version aimed towards the game designers target audience.

I think the removal of this movement is both a good and bad thing.

Bad in the sense it alienates hardcore players which like to use every resource available as an aid to the tyranical dominance of the server. A high percentage of players (lets say 95%+) who dodge jump will find themselves beating players which do not utlilize this function. Moreover, the key feature or reasoning of this design by epic was in attempt to capitalize on the stale state of other FPS's which did not plan on releasing new titles. For one, upon UT2K3's release Epic successfully captured many of the "Quake" series players. As anyone who has ever played the Quake series, with the many popular "hardcore" features such as with turn on a dime physics, texture doublejumping and strafe jumping and now with quake4 and crouch slide physics which lead to "across the level" movement in a matter of seconds. UT2K3/4 became a hardcore gamers dream or holiday away from Quake.

UT2K3, which was definately the most hardcore of all featured Unreal Tournaments featured many things which appealed to the "hardcore gamer" such as the "boost/bug" jump.. which im quite sure many of you have not heard of or mastered where as you tap away from the wall once, then jump then tap away from the wall in an almost instantaneous movement which allows you to jump 3 times in succession as apposed to the regular "double jump/dodge jump" or the dodge away from the wall and jump combinations. Also the fact you could do this on maps like Compressed, jump off of elevators to boost jump to the wall on the way up to hit the top of the level, or jump from the 50 armor area below all the way up to the grating just below the damage amp. Not to mention the weapon switch was near instantanious.. with the combination of "LG+Shock" which allowed someone to Pull out LG, and fire, switch to shock and fire while the cooldown of lg is resetting, then instantly pull out LG and fire again. This feature did make the ranged combat quite a bit easier than close quarters because hitscan can be more reliable and can output equal or more damage per second than any combination of area of effect weapons. Then again when "Minigun lockdown" effect was on that was even more broken, haha.

UT2K4 is quite balanced between ranged and close/medium combat. It got rid of the effectiveness of lg+shock+lg combinations and increased the time to switch weapons. Also no good player will intentionally get into combat with another good player without having the two weapon combination archtypes. EG LG/Flak, LG/Rocket, etc. Shock/Flak, etc. A Good player who has the advantage fights to get closer to their opponents in an attempt to chain frag. Chainfragging does not work overly well in UT2k3/4 due to the shield gun's (which more than doubles your survivability) defensive abilities.

I would say on most maps its about 50-60% far and 40-50% close or midranged combat. That is typical because you cannot be on top of your enemy all the time, as well the person whos stacked and has won the fight for the powerups will naturally cause the other player to stay away and poke the other player down a peg in order to score some powerups for himself/herself. I Heard before people commented on unreal tournament 2003/4 is more "spammy", attempting to provide correlation between faster movement and more misses leads to more spam. This is the most flawed logic, because the act of spam is not derived from more sporatic movement, its derived from firing the weapon more in the hopes you hit someone or get a kill.

Also people said sporatic movement in UT2k4 leads to more misses and less reliablility on the weapon.. anyone who has watched clans like mTw, SK, Kaizen, Check6, or players like TMO or forest use area effect weapon like flak or rocket know that the weapons reliability depends on the skill of the player, and properly anticipated rockets or flak are extremely effective and deadly. I've seen and participated in skilled matches where a skilled player beat another skilled player with 80% use of the flak cannon.

Also players which posted earlier about not using the functionality of "Dodge Jump" and intentionally rationalizing its use by refering to it as a "circus jump" because it can come across silly or unrealistic really make me stop and scratch my head. Thats like saying "I could play good, but I decided because I either look stupid, or have to press a button in succession instead of just riding it that it is just not worth the effort to BE good". I for one will never understand this menality, I also think that these players convince themselves they cannot do it or are physically incapable of it because nobody likes playing a game at half their potential. You might as well just select your handicap at 45-55% while you are at it. Non-dodge jumpers constantly find themselves b itching about dodge jumpers, yes.. the movement is counter intuitive and unrealistic. But! Its implimentation makes Unreal Tournament unique.

I previously thought FPS's were getting faster as they go, but from the "bad" perspective with the removal of dodge jump it will turn the deathmatch side of the UT2k7 to a bit faster version of counterstrike, featuring brief movement enhancers (wall jump and jump pads), area effect weapons, respawns during a match and powerups and as counterstrike works.. camping will also be more of an issue in ut2k7 where it is a non issue in ut2k4.

The good? Theres is plenty, of good things. It of course levels the playing field, extremely good players in UT2k4 will now only equal a "good" player. There will be less of this 30 kills 0 deaths stuff going around (which I admit I will miss :( ). However it will make the game more user friendly which will lead to a smaller learning curve, because as everyone knows anyone can get a kill in counterstrike against a good player.. the same does not hold true in Unreal Tournament 2k3-4 series. There in general will just be more players. So overall, i am for the removal of this feature just for the sole reason there will be more players, hence a bigger community which means more players for me to kill.

Though don't expect me not to cry when someones rocket spamming a corner turn of a tight cooridor... and I cannot whip around the corner instantly and be halfway into the enemys face to provide him with my gift of a rocket facial like ut2k3/4.. and instead I have to give up, suck it up and go another way to get to him. I will also miss the 40+ angled antalus jumps :(

Such as life.


Excellent post: but I;d have to only disagree with the very tail end of that.

I say the community has alot of life on UT99 and UT2004 for years to come.Neither game shows any sign of weakness to date.I know 2k4 will fall off a little from UT07: depending on how well ot runs on a lower end system.

So, you know: we can have ddodge jump and still have that: it's inhierenet to the seiris I'd say.

[E-LurK]

Do you kno how bad it will affect me and the 1v1dm and tdm community with no f**king double jump or dodge jump thats what keeps your hype up by double dodgeing off the top of campgrounds with tri rox and doing s#it UNREAL not some bullsh#it cs walking around, idc about ut99 ur not suppose to walk around slow, ur suppose to learn and learn better movement to kill faster or control the map in 1v1dm for being semi-pro in 1v1dm no dodgeing or double dodge would ruin all the fun, specially going into a pub dm-only rankin server and going 30-0 and getting called a botter or a speedhacker cuz you can jump from lg across the flak or from 50a 2 lg... my puncuation is horrible idc i dont play ut 2 go 2 school and b corrected :) X6 FTW!!! DODGE JUMPING AND WALL JUMPING MUST STAY.. and it makes you harder to hit, if you walked you wouldnt stay around me 2seconds cuz i would hs u faster then u could even see me, NINJA STYLE!!

[Omniety]

I wouldn't quite agree with all of that.

1. Half Life 2
21246 servers, 82300 players


2. Half Life
32795 servers, 80938 players


3. Battlefield 2
6713 servers, 33141 players


4. Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory
3496 servers, 13757 players


5. Call of Duty 2
6661 servers, 10252 players


6. Call of Duty
3207 servers, 7403 players


7. Unreal Tournament 2004
2557 servers, 6898 players

UT2k4 Used to have about +10k users at its prime, i've stopped, my whole clan has stopped, my roommate has stopped playing. I certainly think the game play will bring back a lot of players. My friend Eden who used to be from clan Kaizen quit, but I recently showed him a video of ut2k7 and he liked the graphics and the onslaught boards and now hes excited to come over and lan now :D.

[synister]

UT2004 stats count the bots!!!

Most of those "players" are bots.

UT99 on the other hand does not count bots in its stats.

[Omniety]

Do you kno how bad it will affect me and the 1v1dm and tdm community with no f**king double jump or dodge jump thats what keeps your hype up by double dodgeing off the top of campgrounds with tri rox and doing s#it UNREAL not some bullsh#it cs walking around, idc about ut99 ur not suppose to walk around slow, ur suppose to learn and learn better movement to kill faster or control the map in 1v1dm for being semi-pro in 1v1dm no dodgeing or double dodge would ruin all the fun, specially going into a pub dm-only rankin server and going 30-0 and getting called a botter or a speedhacker cuz you can jump from lg across the flak or from 50a 2 lg... my puncuation is horrible idc i dont play ut 2 go 2 school and b corrected :) X6 FTW!!! DODGE JUMPING AND WALL JUMPING MUST STAY.. and it makes you harder to hit, if you walked you wouldnt stay around me 2seconds cuz i would hs u faster then u could even see me, NINJA STYLE!!

Yup, as I said, the pro community is with out a doubt getting boycotted. There will be mods, I personally would not be suprised if a doublejump mutalator was included in the official 1v1 tournament mods.

[Omniety]

UT2004 stats count the bots!!!

Most of those "players" are bots.

UT99 on the other hand does not count bots in its stats.

Ew, is this true? then its like 1/8th of this number then if thats the case.

I fooking hate bots on servers, they're fine for SP and sp scrims on lan but.. online it really discourages players from joining trying to sort through the lists looking for a genuine player.

[Gregori]

Yup, as I said, the pro community is with out a doubt getting boycotted. There will be mods, I personally would not be suprised if a doublejump mutalator was included in the official 1v1 tournament mods.


Double jump is still in. It doesn't need to be mutated.

[Gregori]

Ew, is this true? then its like 1/8th of this number then if thats the case.

I fooking hate bots on servers, they're fine for SP and sp scrims on lan but.. online it really discourages players from joining trying to sort through the lists looking for a genuine player.


Its true.


I don't know where the crazy 'this is going to end up like CS/Halo' comments are coming from. UT99 is nothing like CS or Halo. UT2k7 is still going to have way more mobility than UT99 had, double jump, dodge, wall dodge and jumpboots are all in! The run speed also look alot faster than UT2k4.

[iLL]

Omni I enjoyed your book,I mean post;) Seriously tho,it was an interesting read.

Let me just say a few things even though I agreed with most of it.I am just putting this out there,not so much directed towards you.

The lessed learning curve may bring in more players,but I predict(just a hunch here)alot will be playing UW to use the vehicles.

So why even remove the dodge jump from CTF and DM if many will be in vehicles playing VCTF and UW anyway.Why would anyone care about a dodge jump (just do not use it if you do not like it or cannot master it) if they are driving,flying,in a turret,or on a hoverboard?

The dodge jump should stay in CTF and DM because its for ground battles and thats what CTF and DM is.It adds so much to the game and makes things so much more challenging.

Why the hell must every FPS have the basically the same movement options?
Prey,HL,Doom,Quake,COD,Battlefield,etc. and so on all have different everything(skins,maps,weapons,effects,etc.) so its very sad they basically all have the same movements.Boring.Although at least Quake is TRYING to break the ever going cycle and Epic already has but is having second thoughts obviously.

Epic should AT LEAST make it a server side config thing.Thats the only way to please everyone.We could have servers with it disabled for less skilled movers,99 guys,and newbs.

Then on the flip side servers with it enabled for people who think it raises the bar of gaming and enjoy it.

We should not have to pay because new guys do not want to put in the time to learn the game.Like w/most things-learning it sucks because its work.Once you grasp it,and learn how to do or use it correctly all of sudden you like it and its fun.

Players who cannot master trans b*tch about it unto no end.
Players who cannot master the LG do the same.
Players who cannot master the 2k4 movements do the same.

Endless cycle every release.I only wonder what the big cries of 2k7 will be?

As Omni mentioned though,maybe there will be some upside to it all.More players does sound good,hopefully they actually give CTF and DM a try though.

[Omniety]

So why even remove the dodge jump from CTF and DM if many will be in vehicles playing VCTF and UW anyway.Why would anyone care about a dodge jump (just do not use it if you do not like it or cannot master it) if they are driving,flying,in a turret,or on a hoverboard?

The dodge jump should stay in CTF and DM because its for ground battles and thats what CTF and DM is.It adds so much to the game and makes things so much more challenging.

Why the hell must every FPS have the basically the same movement options?
Prey,HL,Doom,Quake,COD,Battlefield,etc. and so on all have different everything(skins,maps,weapons,effects,etc.) so its very sad they basically all have the same movements.Boring.Although at least Quake is TRYING to break the ever going cycle and Epic already has but is having second thoughts obviously.

Epic should AT LEAST make it a server side config thing.Thats the only way to please everyone.We could have servers with it disabled for less skilled movers,99 guys,and newbs.

Then on the flip side servers with it enabled for people who think it raises the bar of gaming and enjoy it.

We should not have to pay because new guys do not want to put in the time to learn the game.Like w/most things-learning it sucks because its work.Once you grasp it,and learn how to do or use it correctly all of sudden you like it and its fun.

Players who cannot master trans b*tch about it unto no end.
Players who cannot master the LG do the same.
Players who cannot master the 2k4 movements do the same.

Endless cycle every release.I only wonder what the big cries of 2k7 will be?

As Omni mentioned though,maybe there will be some upside to it all.More players does sound good,hopefully they actually give CTF and DM a try though.

Thank you for your kind words and thoughts.

Main reason is standardization. Nobody wants to go play a game of ONS with their team and obey a certain set of physics for three or four hours then go play some DM for 30 mins and be overwhelmed with how much involved being a single entity infantry member is.

Standards are good, I just wish everyone could come to a solid conclusion over what should be official.. then again that would take away a lot of players ability to push a game in the direction that they want to see.

I remember Quake1 not having the forwards strafe jump originally, then when quake2 came out it was intended to be more of a technical game. Then somewhere around the 3.15-3.17 patch ID received a ton of complaints about the game moving too slow. They added doublejump (which was originally a bug) and strafejump (intentional). The popularity of the game grew, expecially with the new DM matches which seemed perfectly suited for the new physics in terms of jumps.

However a great sadness overcame the quake2 community shortly thereafter, players learned to master the physics and began to completely dominate servers. Games won with 30 kills in 1 or 2 minutes appeared, (my best was 30 kills in 0 minutes (less than 1 minute) on Quake2's "Sudden Death") with the player having a very limited amount of deaths if any. Items such as in original DM the power armor gave an easily renewable armor count upwards of 500 with body armor and the standard 100 health, some people ran around with 700 armor and 200 health at any given time.

The game then turned extremely power hungry, people trying to beat the pro players by using exploits and cheats such as the Z-bot or Rat bot, speed hacks, etc. Pro players then went to GX and Tourney modded servers with anti-hack mechanisms. Replayed the same two or three maps over and over (Q2dm1, Q2dm3, match1) and a niche was born. All im saying is that pro players right now will be pro players in ut2k7, but they have to think weither or not they want to be pro in a slower moving game or if they will either turn away from the community... or...participate in it and be just an "excellent" player or will they result to quake2's making their own tourney mod to escape other peoples BS and do screetching holy ****s all over the double jump instant weapon switch servers.

Also games seem to go in cycles,

Quake1 originally no strafe with quick weaponswitch.
Quake2 doublejump and strafe
Quake3 strafe only.
Quake4 light double jump, strafe and crouch slide.
UT99, dodge only.
Ut2k3, boost jump, dodge jump, doublejump, wall jump, instant weapon combos.
Ut2k4, dodge jump, doublejump, walljump.
Ut2k7 double jump, walljump.

It seems like they are just doing what people want ultimately, also most people who post on these boards are experienced players from what I find.. im sure doublejump would be rated lower if a true sample amongst all ut players was taken. Dedicated UT99 players are getting their just due, and I just think we have to accept it.

Though, if theres anything this post should say, its don't pay attention to what the game is upon release, pay attention to what it turns into.

[Xyx]

my puncuation is horrible idc i dont play ut 2 go 2 school and b corrected :)
I'm glad you're not bothered by the fact that you come across like a total retard. :)


Why would anyone care about a dodge jump (just do not use it if you do not like it or cannot master it) if they are driving,flying,in a turret,or on a hoverboard?
Because they might run into people that do "freaky circus moves" or even *gasp* have to step out of their vehicle. And that's not counting the fact that balancing maps for dodgejump is a surefire way to ruin any "in your face" feeling the series is supposed to recapture.


Why the hell must every FPS have the basically the same movement options?
Probably for a good reason: it works!

Not all the same, though. CoD and BF have a "go prone" option and Q4, HL and BF have a "sprint" option.

Personally I'd appreciate some extra movement options, provided they're modest and don't make some of the other options redundant. For example, running becomes rather redundant when other options are faster.


We should not have to pay because new guys do not want to put in the time to learn the game.
Conversely, hordes of new players should not have to practice for weeks to be of any use to his team at all because a small group of elitists wanted to "raise the bar". Some people try to have a life.

[YARRR]

q4 has sprint? lol.

please don't use single player as an example

[Omniety]

q4 has sprint? lol.

please don't use single player as an example


Quake4 light double jump, strafe and crouch slide.

I didn't say anything about sprint, Q4 singleplayer doesn't have strafejump, and yes it has sprint.

Who the hell was talking about singleplayer?

[Omniety]

I'm glad you're not bothered by the fact that you come across like a total retard. :)


Because they might run into people that do "freaky circus moves" or even *gasp* have to step out of their vehicle. And that's not counting the fact that balancing maps for dodgejump is a surefire way to ruin any "in your face" feeling the series is supposed to recapture.


Probably for a good reason: it works!

Not all the same, though. CoD and BF have a "go prone" option and Q4, HL and BF have a "sprint" option.

Personally I'd appreciate some extra movement options, provided they're modest and don't make some of the other options redundant. For example, running becomes rather redundant when other options are faster.


Conversely, hordes of new players should not have to practice for weeks to be of any use to his team at all because a small group of elitists wanted to "raise the bar". Some people try to have a life.

I find the way you approach debate to be offensive and uneducated.

[MonsOlympus]

Originally posted by iLL
Epic should AT LEAST make it a server side config thing.Thats the only way to please everyone.We could have servers with it disabled for less skilled movers,99 guys,and newbs.

Then on the flip side servers with it enabled for people who think it raises the bar of gaming and enjoy it.

I can understand adding both features in but cmon dodge jumping isnt that hard to do. It doesnt even require much timing to get it to happen, Im sure a button mash or two could easily accomplish one.

Ive actually adjusted this in uc2004 by making the double jump apex smaller so you have to time both double jumps and dodge jumps alot more. It might be easy to know how to do it but now you actually have to have some level of skill to pull them off.

My main problem with the move is the amount of distance and z height which can be obtained. It shouldnt be able to get you higher than a double jump and shouldnt move you further that double dodging distance, lucky there isnt much air control otherwise people would be flying around a map.

All I know is Ive successfully come up with an alternative that works without removing it so Im sure epic will have no problems doing the same with its removal. I love the people who say the removal of one move will turn the game into CS or something, totally laughable, well I guess we can only hope we'll get the same player numbers...

[Gregori]

Dodge jump just impedes the player by making maps too big, running redundant and its a secret requirement for playing the maps correctly (stupid).

If you want to make standard moves such an impediment to getting from point A to B, why don't we have the contestants on jet powered zimmerframes instead!
Press forward to crawl along at snails pace, Press double forward jump to jet- jump to get from A to B faster!


Ultimately double jump, wall dodge, dodge and a faster running speed are all the uniqueness the movement needs, and the gameplay will be a million times more fun for the majority of players because of it. It won't be Unreal Huge Distance Tournament anymore!

[iLL]

I can understand adding both features in but cmon dodge jumping isnt that hard to do. It doesnt even require much timing to get it to happen, Im sure a button mash or two could easily accomplish one.

Ive actually adjusted this in uc2004 by making the double jump apex smaller so you have to time both double jumps and dodge jumps alot more. It might be easy to know how to do it but now you actually have to have some level of skill to pull them off.

My main problem with the move is the amount of distance and z height which can be obtained. It shouldnt be able to get you higher than a double jump and shouldnt move you further that double dodging distance, lucky there isnt much air control otherwise people would be flying around a map.

All I know is Ive successfully come up with an alternative that works without removing it so Im sure epic will have no problems doing the same with its removal. I love the people who say the removal of one move will turn the game into CS or something, totally laughable, well I guess we can only hope we'll get the same player numbers...


Check my other posts.

I agree that its no big deal to pull this move.I only say this because other people against the dodge jump make it sound like a new player must practice for months to be able to grasp it OR like the button combo to execute it is top secret and no ones knows of it,except vet players.

As I have said before.Leave it in and knock some distance off.It will not ruin the game by its removal.I also think by leaving it in and tweaking,it will not ruin the game or chase off newbies.

Like with all of their changes.Imho we should just be able to config things the way we want.As much control over the game as possible would be nice to please as many as possible.Thats asking too much I am sure.

[Gregori]

I can understand adding both features in but cmon dodge jumping isnt that hard to do. It doesnt even require much timing to get it to happen, Im sure a button mash or two could easily accomplish one.

Ive actually adjusted this in uc2004 by making the double jump apex smaller so you have to time both double jumps and dodge jumps alot more. It might be easy to know how to do it but now you actually have to have some level of skill to pull them off.

My main problem with the move is the amount of distance and z height which can be obtained. It shouldnt be able to get you higher than a double jump and shouldnt move you further that double dodging distance, lucky there isnt much air control otherwise people would be flying around a map.

All I know is Ive successfully come up with an alternative that works without removing it so Im sure epic will have no problems doing the same with its removal. I love the people who say the removal of one move will turn the game into CS or something, totally laughable, well I guess we can only hope we'll get the same player numbers...


If the running speed is faster in UT2k7, chances are the double jump will cover more distance in anyway, getting rid of any perceived need for a dodge jump.

I wouldn't object to being able to perform 2 consecutive wall dodges, atleast that would require more skill!

[MonsOlympus]

I wouldn't object to being able to perform 2 consecutive wall dodges, atleast that would require more skill!

Well I take it youve played uc2, the adjustements to 2k4's dodging I mentioned are part of uc2004 which happens to include multi-wall dodges as well. Atm Im tweaking it up so you get the same kind of momentum feel that uc2 has when moving upwards. One of the things that is difficult on pc because dodges are double taps so you have to doubletap at each wall to perform it, we have discussed things in the team and we have an alternative if this turns out to be tedious.

[Gregori]

Well I take it youve played uc2, the adjustements to 2k4's dodging I mentioned are part of uc2004 which happens to include multi-wall dodges as well. Atm Im tweaking it up so you get the same kind of momentum feel that uc2 has when moving upwards. One of the things that is difficult on pc because dodges are double taps so you have to doubletap at each wall to perform it, we have discussed things in the team and we have an alternative if this turns out to be tedious.

Double tap should appease all those who think dodge jumping is a badge of honour for how 'leet' they are!

2 consecutive wall dodges would be a far more interesting way to get down a corridor because of the greater control of angling you can achieve with the mouse.

Any Beta on UC2004 coming soon?

[iLL]

That'd be about two car lanes.

I wholeheartedly agree that fragging is harder and I do prefer the map scale of 99. I also like 2004's movement options, even the dodgejump. I just think they've been overdone, ruining what made UT99 great.

Mind you, the UT200X games are not the only FPS games with more than 6 movement buttons. Some of the "slow" games have stuff like going prone, sprinting or rolling.


It is not the points you make but the way you make them.


Ah, the cheap ploy of asking questions and then offering the last word in false grandeur. A double-edged knife. Answering implies childish desire to have the last word, not answering implies agreement. So be it, I shall brave your trap and not bite my tongue. Your maturity speaks for itself, of course.

2 car lanes.Come on now.I did say wall dodge,not dodge jump.A wall dodge is roughly= 2 dodges,not 2 car lanes.

If 99 is so great then why not stay there,even in 2k7.

I only offered the last word to be polite so I could get out of this thread.You are just looking to deep into it.A trap,lol.

We are DEBATING and yet you still sink to this maturity thing as an easy way out.I think when you feel as though your losing a debate or things are not going your way,you get flustered and start with the name calling and such.
Similar to a tantrum.

Have you ever considered this?Maybe its not the way I make my points.Could it possibly be the way you read and interpret them?

I sure wish your birthdate was displayed so I cut you some slack here.It seems to me that you just hate all of the below:

Players who love the trans,who would rather not play with vehicles,who enjoy the dodge jump,and love the LG,so its no wonder I am on your sh*t list(which btw I enjoy) because I am all of those.

Just skip over my posts would be my best advice to Xyx.Its safe to say we disagree on pretty much everything.

[MonsOlympus]

Any Beta on UC2004 coming soon?
Sorry guys this is gonna be a bit offtopic...

Not in a hurry, we are working as fast as we can. Ive taken alittle break over the last couple of days to enjoy my birthday :p but yeah we are scheduled for another internal release which is leaps and bounds better than the first one.
If you drop by the forums and want to ask questions etc thats cool as the game we are basing the mod on is released theres not really a huge mystery. Although in adapting it to pc there will be some differences and features we dont have time to add fully but we do have plenty ideas for extra's :)

[Gregori]

Just skip over my posts would be my best advice to Xyx.

It also happens to be good advice for everyone!;)

[iLL]

It also happens to be good advice for everyone!;)

So why aren't you taking it?:D

Sorry,thats spam and I am bored.Couldn't resist.;)

[MonsOlympus]

hmmz did someone just post rofl :D

[Axeman]

We should not have to pay because new guys do not want to put in the time to learn the game.Like w/most things-learning it sucks because its work.Once you grasp it,and learn how to do or use it correctly all of sudden you like it and its fun.

Ummm...no.
I was a UT99 player and am now a UT2004 player. I have grasped the new movement options of UT2004 and it doesn't make it more fun to play- at least to me.
There is such a disparity between player's skills that kills the entertainment value of it for me. Rarely are there consistently close matches on servers. Usually there's one or two folks (sometimes me) winning by 10-15 frags.

The game needs to go back to its roots or how did you put it earlier- removing dodge jump for "less skilled movers, UT99 guys, and newbs"--LOL...hardly. Rather, what I hope Epic is doing is going back to what made the franchise worthy of a sequel.

I believe the server statistics posted earlier speak for themselves.

Let's do the math. In two and half years after the release of UT99 it was still going strong- really at its peak perhaps. Where's UT2004 after that time period? You could even say that UT99 and UT2004 player population is almost equal at this time- 7 years after UT99 launched, almost 3 after UT2004's release. And I would bet a good portion of UT2004's population is in vehicle based gameplay which UT99 doesn't have the benefit of having.

But honestly, to me- I wouldn't mind if the dodge jump stayed- but with the space covered in the jump drastically reduced.

I posted in another thread that the only thing I want fixed in UT2007 is the player scale to their environment. It's crazy in UT200X. Looks ridiculous if you ask me. I think the main culprit of level designers having to make the halls wider and the ceilings taller (perpetuating hitscan dominance due to more open maps) is the double jump and the wall dodge and yes, the dodge jump. I'd much rather see the first two go before the dodge jump if the end result is a more proportioned player scale.

But again- I think the reason Epic is going back to a "UT99" style of play (or dumbing it down for newbies, UT99 fanboys or whatever you want to call it) is in direct relation to the server stats posted earlier. UT2004 really just isn't a popular game in the gaming world anymore. There are too many other games available where you can have fun (and be competitive) the first time you jump on a server than to try and hit someone who is bouncing off walls and scaling wall panels and navigating 50 foot hallways in .4 seconds.

My forty percent of a nickel.

-Axe

[MonsOlympus]

Youve got a valid point with ut99's lifespan in a way but you must also consider the whole industry not just the ut franchise. If you look at the amount of online games now compared to then Im sure there would be far less than there is now. Epic have to make the game competative in sales as well as online players with EA spitting games out like crazy it does make it more difficult for them not to mention steam. If the end result is more players I will agree with any decision epic makes to improve the odds even if I dont like it.

[iLL]

The game needs to go back to its roots or how did you put it earlier- removing dodge jump for "less skilled movers, UT99 guys, and newbs"--LOL...hardly.

But honestly, to me- I wouldn't mind if the dodge jump stayed- but with the space covered in the jump drastically reduced.

I posted in another thread that the only thing I want fixed in UT2007 is the player scale to their environment.

My forty percent of a nickel.

-Axe

I am not ripping on anyone,but I do not see how you can deny Epic is doing what they are doing for those players.Also just because I listed them in the same sentence does not mean I think of them as the same and I'll bet you and few others took it that way.Everyone likes what they like for whatever reason and I won't knock that,just as I will stand behind what I like.

I mentioned dodge distance tonedown a few times.Its all it needs as you said a few times as well.Removing dj will help scale,I understand.

Player scale needs to match enviroment,yes agreed.

btw,been playing Gilles for the past week.Nice work.Red carpets are a nice touch.Love the amp placement.

[Xyx]

I find the way you approach debate to be offensive and uneducated. Excuse me for not being politically correct. Please allow me to enlighten you about a little forum etiquette in return: When you quote someone, quote only the relevant parts. You make more sense that way.


like the button combo to execute it is top secret and no ones knows of it,except vet players. Epic said that, not some poster here. Nothing that a proper* tutorial couldn't fix.

* Unlike the UT2004 tutorials, if they could be called such.


Leave it in and knock some distance off. I'd prefer that too. In fact, I'd prefer it if every type of movement has its own purpose:
Dodge: avoid incoming rockets.
Dodgejump: Jump over large gaps.
Jump: Hop onto stuff.
Doublejump: Erm... why don't we just increase the jump height instead?
Run: Get from A to B fastest.
Crouch: Not fall off Mantas.
Walk: Erm... why not crouch instead?

we should just be able to config things the way we want. Epic seems to think this spreads the community too thin.


2 car lanes.Come on now.I did say wall dodge,not dodge jump.A wall dodge is roughly= 2 dodges,not 2 car lanes. A walldodgejump covers more ground than even a dodgejump.

My line of reasoning is that if Jackie Chan couldn't do it, it shouldn't be in the game. Too bad walljumping is not an Olympic sport. That way we'd have some material for comparison.


If 99 is so great then why not stay there,even in 2k7. I could ask you the same thing about UT200X. Things can always get better, no?


Maybe its not the way I make my points.Could it possibly be the way you read and interpret them? Yes, that could be. I guesstimate it to be 0.001% likely.

Have you considered the reverse?


I sure wish your birthdate was displayed so I cut you some slack here. You speak of maturity and then post this childish jab?


Its safe to say we disagree on pretty much everything. Less than you might think. I like the translocator and the dodgejump. I just do not agree with their implementation and the resulting changes to gameplay, oversized maps being my chief concern.


One of the things that is difficult on pc because dodges are double taps so you have to doubletap at each wall to perform it, we have discussed things in the team and we have an alternative if this turns out to be tedious. Such as the UC2 system (lean away from the wall and hit Jump)? I felt that was a much better way of handling walljumps.

[Axeman]

Youve got a valid point with ut99's lifespan in a way but you must also consider the whole industry not just the ut franchise. If you look at the amount of online games now compared to then Im sure there would be far less than there is now.

This is entirely valid. I was thinking the same thing when I was making my argument above. There are a TON more games available online now than there were in 99- even in 2001-2002. But how many of these new games really grab folks. Let's take F.E.A.R for example- great single player, but the devs had to resort to offering their multiplayer for free to try and attract online play. It just hasn't taken off.

But- let's quote the server stats here and I'll input the release date of the games posted just for the sake of future debating:



1. Half Life 2 (11-16-04)
21246 servers, 82300 players


2. Half Life (11-19-98)
32795 servers, 80938 players


3. Battlefield 2 (6-21-05)
6713 servers, 33141 players


4. Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory (5-29-03)
3496 servers, 13757 players


5. Call of Duty 2 (10-25-05)
6661 servers, 10252 players


6. Call of Duty (10-29-03)
3207 servers, 7403 players


7. Unreal Tournament 2004 (3-16-04)
2557 servers, 6898 players

8. Unreal Tournament (11-26-99)

Now- the only thing I don't know is the validity of these server stats as I didn't get them myself.

iLL- thanks for checking out my map. Glad you're enjoying it. My next one will blow Gilles away imho, but it's still a couple months from release.
And I do think we are arguing the same point but I think I took some of your wording wrong- misinterpreted it. Perhaps a lot of folks are. It's very difficult to determine intent when reading someone's post. (one reason why you'll always see "last edited" on my posts as I go back and change wording to ensure the message is clear and, hopefully, won't be misinterpreted).
Bottom line in my eyes- I'm all in favor in changes to gameplay that will fix player scale- whatever those changes may be.

-Axe

[Luseferous]

Let's do the math. In two and half years after the release of UT99 it was still going strong- really at its peak perhaps. Where's UT2004 after that time period? You could even say that UT99 and UT2004 player population is almost equal at this time- 7 years after UT99 launched, almost 3 after UT2004's release. And I would bet a good portion of UT2004's population is in vehicle based gameplay which UT99 doesn't have the benefit of having.


This argument really does not hold much water. When Ut99 was released there were approximatly 2 fps games worth playing i.e Quake and UT. Possibly 3 was HL1/CS out then I can't remember.

When 2k3/4 were released there were many many FPS type games to suit all tastes such as realistic ww2 style, Jungle warfare, Near future warfare and the list goes on. Games where you sneak around and are tactical and the Rambo'esk style of UT. In short the Genre was old jaded and done to death pretty much.

Back when Ut99 was released FPS was still a reasonably fresh and interesting game type and tournement type games were completly new. I really belive that some people look at UT99 with extremely thick rose tinted lenses for the reason above. Come on was C&C the best RTS ever made, no not by a long shot but it still has probably the largest player base.

[edit sorry didnt notice this had been raised before and responeded to 1 post above mine...]

[Gregori]

This argument really does not hold much water. When Ut99 was released there were approximatly 2 fps games worth playing i.e Quake and UT. [edit: possibly 3 was HL1 out then I can't remember ?]

When 2k3/4 were released there were many many FPS type games to suit all tastes such as realistic ww2 style, Jungle warfare, Near future warfare and the list goes on. Games where you sneak around and are tactical and the Rambo'esk style of UT. In short the Genre was old jaded and done to death pretty much.



Not really, whenever I go back and play UT99 I wonder why the **** they broke the game? Even though UT2k4 can be alot of fun, UT99 is just a better game both for its visuals, audio and gameplay!