about the character scale...

[legacy-0gse1r]

well hello everyone,
this is my very 1ºst post here.

i want to respetuosly ask you your opinion on this matter:

i ve read on a interview (dont remember where)that one of the epic guys was asked about the ut 2k4´s success...

and the epic´s guy said that unreal 2k4 havent had the same success as ut99 because "...the game lost the feeling of being fighting face to face with other players..."

well, i think this phenomenon happened because the characters in ut2k4
were scaled down in order the maps seemed to be biggers

i think that this was bad to the game

now, im following very close the development of the new ut2k7
and ive seen on the last e3 video demonstration that the characters scale are still very small

================
what do you think about this? give opinion please
should the characters be biggers or small like in ut2k4 (the maps can be done biggers with the editor)

[legacy-Tutenarak]

I do beleive the indoor face to face style was great, but the idea of maps becoming battlefields seems like a starwars: battlefront thing to me, and maybe giving more realistic lighting *you can still see a person bright as day in the dark* Because i am very fond of the thief: deadly shadows feeling. *my sig vvv* I would prefere stealth with pistols than open area, large group with a rocket launcher. Stealth>Raw power

edit: I see this is your first post WELCOME TO THE EPIC FORUMS!! :D :D

[Wowbagger]

Yea youre absolutely right Ogse1r and this is one of the biggest complaints people have with UT2003/2004.

What happened in UT2003 was that they introduced new movements, jumps etc and in order to make the maps playable they had to make them bigger compared to the player than in lets say UT99.
I have noticed (imho) that when ive been mapping it can look quite right in 1st person but then in 3rd person it looks ridicilous (player way too small compared to the doors, items etc.

Epic has stated that they WILL fix this in UT2007 tho. :)

Edit: oh and welcome :)

[legacy-0gse1r]

lets make a hateful comparison with valve´s hl2

in hl2, the maps are biggers, but characters are not small

in ut2k4 aiming to far away enemies is hard (and harder for headshots)
its like shooting at jumping fleas

=======
wowbager, you havent to compare with doors you can see the weapons

pick a weapon, go third person,
make a freecamera, put the camara to lateral side,
compare the weapon on the model,
then drop it, the weapon on the floor is bigger than in characters hand

characters are too small

[fuegerstef]

lets make a hateful comparison with valve´s hl2

in hl2, the maps are biggers, but characters are not small


That has nothing to do with the scale. Nothing. I can make you a map that is bigger than the average HL2 level for UT2004. That wouldn't fix the player-scale / environment-scale issue.

[legacy-0gse1r]

That has nothing to do with the scale. Nothing. I can make you a map that is bigger than the average HL2 level for UT2004. That wouldn't fix the player-scale / environment-scale issue.



==================
i wanted to say that hl2 maps are biggers than hl1 maps but the characters are not smallers than in hl1

on ut2k4
they reduced the character´s scale to increase the effect of the map being bigger and the only thing they achieved is to decrease the gameplay

what bothers me its than in the last e3 video about ut2k7 the characters
seemed to be small like in ut2k4

[legacy-willhaven]

Characters in UT2K3/4 are bigger than UT in terms of Unreal units. What causes the difference in feeling is the ratio of player size to movement over time. I'm going to use arbitrary numbers here. If a player in UT is 50 units tall and can run at 200 units a second, his size-to-movement ratio would be 50-to-200, or 1-to-4. In UT2K3/4, players were larger, say, 75. In addition to the players being larger, they also moved faster, say, 375... giving you a theoretical ratio of 75-to-375, or 1-to-5. That's basically what was happening with 2K3 and 2K4.

If you move faster in relation to your body size over time, the maps will have to be wider and longer to make up for that movement, and if jumping is also higher, your maps will have to be taller to compensate. This is what contributed to that wacky scale in 2K3/4. This is why you feel like you are shooting at ants, this is why it seems harder to use splash damage weapons than it did in UT.

Imagine a semi truck in a parking lot. When you are 5 feet away with it, it is almost impossible to miss it if you took a shot at it. If it drove to the other side of the parking lot (say it takes 5 seconds at 25mph to get there). It is still a relatively big target and can still be tagged with some ease.

Now imagine the truck, which is the same size, now moves at 200mph. To keep the parking lot from feeling small and claustrophobic when it moves, the parking lot has to be scaled up greatly. It still takes the truck 5 seconds at 200mph to reach the end, but when it gets there, it is a MUCH smaller target than the truck that moved at 25mph.

This example is extreme, but if you think about it, it makes sense, and that's the difference between UT and UT2K3/4. The difference is much smaller than that example, but you still feel it greatly.

As for the character scale and movement speed in the E3 2K7 presentation, it was, in fact, a lot better than 2K3/4. Things were still even tweaked a bit after that.

The only thing I know is, when I load up UT2K7 at work, it feels better. The movement feels tight and snappy and solid. The enviornments feel nice and close without being snaggy or claustrophobic. I don't want to get into detail as to what changed and how that relates between UT/2K4/Envy because I honestly don't know exactly what has been modified, and also because things are subject to change and I don't want to say something that might not end up being entirely true.

Just know that fixing scale and movement speed was of primary concern to many of us when starting Envy. Since we are starting on the new engine, we have a clean slate to start with and we want to do it right. Just know that we're trying really hard to make this the best UT yet, and to reserve judgement on movement and player scaling until you can play it for yourselves.

Just thought I'd chime in since player scale and movement is near and dear subject to me. :)

[legacy-TRUEgamer]

thx for the reply...I never thought that so much detail and, well, math went into balancing movement and size.

[edit] How are the bagels?

[legacy-0gse1r]

[quote=willhaven]



The only thing I know is, when I load up UT2K7 at work...,




you b******* lucky one ;)



and to reserve judgement on movement and player scaling until you can play it for yourselves.
[quote]

__________________________________________________ ______________________
i prefer to give constructive criticsm before a game is made when there is time to fix things



the fact is that i said was about character scale on ut2k3/4 (already played) to prevent the problem on the upcoming release (just seen).

the ut2k7 e3 video give me that impresion but it was only a video not the finished game so take my comments just as orientative feedback


thx

[legacy-Crunchy_Nacho]

Nice post willhaven, this sounds good. It means that I probably won't feel that 'everyone is on an invisible high-powered pogo stick' sensation that I get with UT2K4.

[legacy-Nosnos]

Would be sweet to see a picture comparing the scale of the characters in the different UT-games from UT -> UT2003/UT2004 -> UT2007... just to get an idea... numbers are great but a picture is even better ^^

[fuegerstef]

>>I never thought that so much detail and, well, math went into balancing movement and size.


And you call yourself TRUE gamer ???+


(j/k) ;)

[Wowbagger]

Thanks Willhaven that was REALLY encouraging to read :)

@Nosnos, yea that would be nice, of Deck## preferably.
Could be raw BSP without textures etc, np :)

[legacy-Tutenarak]

Characters in UT2K3/4 are bigger than UT in terms of Unreal units. What causes the difference in feeling is the ratio of player size to movement over time. I'm going to use arbitrary numbers here. If a player in UT is 50 units tall and can run at 200 units a second, his size-to-movement ratio would be 50-to-200, or 1-to-4. In UT2K3/4, players were larger, say, 75. In addition to the players being larger, they also moved faster, say, 375... giving you a theoretical ratio of 75-to-375, or 1-to-5. That's basically what was happening with 2K3 and 2K4.

If you move faster in relation to your body size over time, the maps will have to be wider and longer to make up for that movement, and if jumping is also higher, your maps will have to be taller to compensate. This is what contributed to that wacky scale in 2K3/4. This is why you feel like you are shooting at ants, this is why it seems harder to use splash damage weapons than it did in UT.

Imagine a semi truck in a parking lot. When you are 5 feet away with it, it is almost impossible to miss it if you took a shot at it. If it drove to the other side of the parking lot (say it takes 5 seconds at 25mph to get there). It is still a relatively big target and can still be tagged with some ease.

Now imagine the truck, which is the same size, now moves at 200mph. To keep the parking lot from feeling small and claustrophobic when it moves, the parking lot has to be scaled up greatly. It still takes the truck 5 seconds at 200mph to reach the end, but when it gets there, it is a MUCH smaller target than the truck that moved at 25mph.

This example is extreme, but if you think about it, it makes sense, and that's the difference between UT and UT2K3/4. The difference is much smaller than that example, but you still feel it greatly.

As for the character scale and movement speed in the E3 2K7 presentation, it was, in fact, a lot better than 2K3/4. Things were still even tweaked a bit after that.

The only thing I know is, when I load up UT2K7 at work, it feels better. The movement feels tight and snappy and solid. The enviornments feel nice and close without being snaggy or claustrophobic. I don't want to get into detail as to what changed and how that relates between UT/2K4/Envy because I honestly don't know exactly what has been modified, and also because things are subject to change and I don't want to say something that might not end up being entirely true.

Just know that fixing scale and movement speed was of primary concern to many of us when starting Envy. Since we are starting on the new engine, we have a clean slate to start with and we want to do it right. Just know that we're trying really hard to make this the best UT yet, and to reserve judgement on movement and player scaling until you can play it for yourselves.

Just thought I'd chime in since player scale and movement is near and dear subject to me. :)

Ahhh, so it is the eyes that are doing it to us, and the way are eyes are used to seeing? [face_thinking]