...just thought of a reason the 3rdPerson shooter will never succeed...

[legacy-NecrisFlood]

Really, this game is more of a "3PS", obviously, and these random thoughts just hit me with why this subgenre will never truly be successful..

1. Most fans of these types of games seem to have varying degrees of that annoying PC Elitism and close-minded notion that keeps them laughing at the mere concept of playing an arena/deathmatch shooter on consoles in the first place. It's like they don't even want to try handling things with a controller for even 5 damn seconds. (*on the flip side...I prefer controllers, but I practice what I preach here....I've tried to use keyboard/mouse many times...and I really, really can't stand it. I could play a game like this for hours on end...I was on for 6 hours last night, actually. Keyboard/mouse control = my hands would hurt after about 30 minutes or so. It's just not at all comfortable for me....it feels unnatural...like trying to drive a car with my feet on the steering wheel or something.)

2. The 3rdPerson Shooter actually does require a controller moreso than a pure FPS would "require" mouse/keyboard. A person trying to play Unreal Champ 2 on m/k setup would likely be destroyed by even a "Novice" ranked player. On the flip side...a pure FPS can still be played with a controller as opposed to mouse/keyboard --e.g. Quake 3 Arena on Dreamcast a few years ago.

3. Resistance to change -- the hardcore PC fans don't seem to want anything that makes a game more than "just another FPS", from what I've seen. With this game in particular...people *****ed and moaned all day about supposedly "cheap" adrenaline abilities and character differences.

4. So far...console gamers seem to want Halo games and nothing else. Nobody appears to want to move on from the world of Halo. I was a fan of those games, but really....it became difficult for me to go back once UC2 came out. UC2 - fast paced, super abilities and different characters with the option to play against bots for some form of practice vs. Halo - slow motion world by comparison, with only 2 playable characters? That's not such a hard decision for me. It's like comparing regular Street Fighter 2 with Marvel vs. Capcom 2.

5. Learning curve? I don't think a 3PS could possibly be so different one way or another in regards to this aspect of the experience....so I'm not sure...just throwing it out there.

well...that was all more than "a reason", but there it is... Discuss. I would've posted it at my usual forum I go to, but nobody in the world seems to care about UC2 except the people here.

[legacy-VickissV3]

I think that third-person deathmatch shooters DO succeed, but there is just a lack of them in the gaming community compared to first person deathmatch games.
UC2 and Midway's The Grid were both immensely fun and have gotten great reviews.
3rd person shooters seem to work better of consoles because the environmental awareness makes up for the lack of controller accuracy. Thats just my opinion though.

[legacy-ShredPrince2]

What PC gamers don't like about consoles, and what you fail to understand is that shooters on a console with an analog stick or D-pad will ALWAYS have some degree of auto aim.YOu can see it, feel it, and abuse it easily in any console shooter to varying degrees.Uc2 included.

I can tell you've never really put in the time to learn how to play with keyboard and mouse to any success.IT takes time and is a skill.Once you do that, nobody in there right mind prefers a controller.Trust me.I grew up only on consoles.I recentyl went to PC a few years ago.Whole different ball of wax.The players in general are alot cooler, and alot better.No lag or any uneven advantages and crap.

Anways don't knock it until you really know what your doing.You just did'nt like it cause you suck at it...PC

[legacy-Xbox360]

What PC gamers don't like about consoles, and what you fail to understand is that shooters on a console with an analog stick or D-pad will ALWAYS have some degree of auto aim.YOu can see it, feel it, and abuse it easily in any console shooter to varying degrees.Uc2 included.

I can tell you've never really put in the time to learn how to play with keyboard and mouse to any success.IT takes time and is a skill.Once you do that, nobody in there right mind prefers a controller.Trust me.I grew up only on consoles.I recentyl went to PC a few years ago.Whole different ball of wax.The players in general are alot cooler, and alot better.No lag or any uneven advantages and crap.

Anways don't knock it until you really know what your doing.You just did'nt like it cause you suck at it...PC

Meh, too uncomfortable for me, wouldn't bother wasting my time trying to learn with it.

[legacy-NecrisFlood]

Nope...if it was just the fact that I wasn't winning...I wouldn't have stuck with console-only UC2 all this time. I'm specifically referring to comfort-factor for me on the controls. Each time, my hands were actually hurting in far less time they would hurt from playing any game on a controller. I played Quake 3 on Dreamcast for 9 straight hours one time....there's absolutely no way I could've done that on a keyboard/mouse setup. K/M would be even more awkward for me in this particular game, which happens to not be a "pure" FPS....it would be as strange to me as trying to play Super Mario Bros. 3 with a keyboard and mouse.

[legacy-Crunchy_Nacho]

Are we only referring to DM sci-fi shooter games here? Because I can think of at least two third-person shooter franchises that have had some success. Ghost Recon and SOCOM.

That being said console shooting does need something truly new. I apologize if I sound elitist, but it's been a while since i've seen a console shooter good enough to justify stepping away from my PC and actually keep my attention for more than a few days. The N64 era had Goldeneye, last gen had Halo, but so far there hasn't been any outstanding console FPS this gen. At least none that could replace what's already availible on PC. I liked UC2, but the game was unstable.

Maybe Gears of War will fill that void? Or maybe it's some game that no one even knows about yet? I'm just looking for a game to give me a good reason to shoot stuff on my console again.

[snoogans460]

Necris Flood, you've brought up many vaild points and I agree with you completely on just about everything. Gamers (along with many developers)in general are afraid of change - period. Instead, they prefer to stick with the tried and true method which they know, never accepting to experiment outside their comfort zone with new innovative experiences.

I have no problem with whatever control scheme people prefer - and have always accepted someone's personal choice. Honestly though, the controller will forever be the most comfortable and natural way to play a game (at least for me). I hate when people say that PC games NEED to be played with a keyboard. The mouse I understand, but like Shred said, the keyboard is a skill - and some people (myself included) will never get good at it.

UC2 may not have the mainstream numbers like a Halo game - but you know what? I could care less, because a game like UC2 should cater strickly to the hard-core skilled players. It's just a shame that most developers are hesitant to innovate beyond a standard FPS - why? Well, this industry is a business, and like everything, making dollars is the number one priority.

[legacy-ShredPrince2]

See thats where I dosagree with you Snoogs.

I think ANYONE can get used to KB&M.

You said it yourself:

:gamers are afraid of change and dont wat to get out of their comfort zone"

Thats why you belive "youll never get good with KB&M".

It's just bolona.

You just don't want to put in the work.....

IT's not that you CAN'T....you just don't want to.

Feel me?

[legacy-ra1n]

Here is a thought, what would happen if the best q4 player on pc played the best q4 player on 360? Ouch, there would be no comparison. Q4 on pc even has tourny mods now. It has the feel of Q3, and the elite graphix of Q4. Just a thought.

[snoogans460]

See thats where I dosagree with you Snoogs.

I think ANYONE can get used to KB&M.

You said it yourself:

:gamers are afraid of change and dont wat to get out of their comfort zone"

Thats why you belive "youll never get good with KB&M".

It's just bolona.

You just don't want to put in the work.....

IT's not that you CAN'T....you just don't want to.

Feel me?

It makes sense, no doubt. Hopefully one of these days I'll find myself practicing the keyboard / mouse combo myself. It's one of those things that takes lots of time and dedication.

[snoogans460]

Here is a thought, what would happen if the best q4 player on pc played the best q4 player on 360? Ouch, there would be no comparison. Q4 on pc even has tourny mods now. It has the feel of Q3, and the elite graphix of Q4. Just a thought.

Well, I suppose it would depend since both versions of Quake 4 are a bit different. I watched one of those Quake 4 tourneys on Gamespot a while back and it was interesting.

[legacy-ThePigster]

I believed the m/kb was a better way to play until I played UC2. Now I think the Xbox controller is definately better for this type of game.

There are very few 3rd person games that are actually better as a 3rd person. UC2 and Twisted Metal are a few that come to mind. Games like GR2 and Socom may as well be an FPS since the 3rd person view just makes things slow and "campy".

[legacy-BasketCase]

This is directed to NecrisFlood.
If I had UC2 for PC, I'd bet almost anything that I could stomp ANYONE using a controller.
I've played against 1 or 2 extremely skilled people on UC2 the whole couple of months I put into UC2. They may have handed me my ass with the controller set up, but if I had my M/K setup, it would have been a dif story altogether.

The freedom of a M/K is so much greater than controller, it's not even funny.

[legacy-Kid_Venom82]

Hello everyone. I don't know how many people are familiar with the mod-chips for xbox. I think they are great. For the people that do not know, it is a chip used to "unlock" your xbox. I don't want to get into trouble by mentioning this, so I won't explain in detail what it does. The reason I brought that up was because most of the top brand chips comes with a PC USB converter that you just slip into a controller slot. The only problem is that you WILL need two in order for this to work, unless you have a hub with multiple slots (Haven't tested that out though, but I don't see why it shouldn't work). Well, the main purpose of the KB is to browse the internet off your xbox much easier. And the good thing is that there are also programs out there that let's you map the xbox controller buttons to a specific keyboard button. In essence, you CAN use a keyboard and mouse while playing UC2 if you *cough* up the money. But honestly it is very worth it. Anyways, my point is this. I feel that UC2 should be played with a controller. But, it would be very very interesting to have some matches going on where it is K/M vs. controllers. But in order for that to be a good test, the only variation should be K/M vs. controller. The players should be equal in skill. I was just wondering. Though I have this, I am also no good with a K/M for this type of game. I even suck with it when playing FPS's, except for Fear. But I do understand that it does take some getting used to. I am lightning fast when it comes to Warcraft 3 or other rts games, but I am not that good when it comes to the extra accuracy attribute needed to be a skilled FPS player. Anyways, sorry for making this post so long, but I just had an idea that may brighten up UC2 if a few people care to put in the money to purchase a mod. What do ya think?

[legacy-Tug_Soldi3r]

this game flopped because of server whores mainly.....
laggin and unreal and midways shutting down.
server whores beat up new comers and most new comers would give up there and then. learning curve is quite big aswell, for the average gamer (halo fans)

[legacy-x_ZerK_x]

The Next gen F.E.A.R will rok every bodys sox!!!!

that will be the next big FPS

[legacy-ra1n]

I actually played a 3rd Person Shooter for 5 years. Jedi Knight: Darkforces 2. From the Release in 97 till MSN Zone closed it. It got game of the year in 97. :/ They already have succeeded... You all just didnt buy 200mhz pc's for $2,000, and payed for a 33.6k connection that was $50.00 a month back then... I even remember playing q1 and q2 with third person mods that everyone always played when they were goofing around.

Jedi Knight just was a Melee / Force / Gun - Item Domination game. Kinda like quake 1. But you had the options of playing levels w/o guns and just sabers/swords. Or you had the option of adding force to the option - Speed , Jump *5 different heighs of jump* *7 total including duck jump and normal jump*, Seeing - Blue tint over screen, able to see items/players on map. *map was shrinkable* so u had it itty bitty in the center. hehe, Then of course force pull so that u could pull health packs and guns and everything.

Force pull made items come back in 30 seconds where if u just picked them up, they would be back in 60 seconds. So there was strategy in how u timed the items. To get a concept of how fast we moved. we could have a total of 30 items on our gun map we played and have them all picked up within 14 seconds. Pulling the ones on 60 sec timers, and running the ones on 30 sec. Naturally making every item on the map in rotation at 30 seconds. Running over items that have the durration of 60 seconds is where tricks come in. U cant tell on map if someone got the item by pulling it unless u actually see the dot*item on map* move toward's their mark*other player one the map*

There was also options of Darkside and Light side. Darkside had an extra attack. kinda like an energy burst that did 80 damage to health and 20 damage to armor. But u should shoot it anywhere and it wouldn't harm you, only other players and objects in the map. Then there was grip, a lock on force power where u grab them and it halts them in place doing 60 damage over time. They Can move inbetween pulses but barely.

Light side had abilities like absorb. so they could initially abosrb all ur darkside force powers. not ur gun attack and saber attacks tho. But grip did no damage, and gave them mana. Destruction just pushed them around and gave them uber mana. I just effected their armor if u hit them direct w/ Force Destruction. You could self kill a lot of them 2. when they'd be flyin in the air comming at u about to cut ur ass open from force jumping 2 stories below you. Just would plant a destruction right underneath them and fling them into a wall at 400mph. lol Grip just holds them a little bit still so u could cut them.

But the problem was with light characters is that they could use force heal. Essentially making them hard as hell to kill in 1v1. Light jedi's were supposedly the best at the game but dark jedi's could slaughter people with just a little less skill by the negs. I remember playing matches in tournies where the 3rd to last guy would be hella bad and had good matches all through it and i ended up beating him 10:-18 due to nerves. He would chase me then i'd force him into a wall. He'd jump towards my cliff for a fakie just to shoot a des off at me. I'd jump off the cliff right at him and cut him so that when he landed he'd take 8 damage. but the cut takes 98 life and like 80 armor. So he selfed.

This game is almost exactly like UC2. Only problem w/ JK's pulling system was that darkside characters could have their guns pulled away from them. So dark vs dark always ended up being a mana battle. who could dominate items enough to keep guns away from the other player. Switching to a gun at longest range. and then back to a saber when the guy got near him. Lightside had it so easy in guns. If u had elite aim. Then u could get a gun and keep absorb on and just play like a tank. Whoring armor and mana for heals and absorb and just snipe them or blast them w/ the explosive weapons.

JK was a way better game and it had a good 800 solid players on MSN gaming zone until 2000

then it droped and dropped and dropped. I think UT was what took away all the JK players. :P Way to go epic.

BTW if ur thinking of Jedi Knight: Jedi outcast. A crap attempt by raven to mix JK w/ q3. :/ so not good. I believe academy was better but i never played it cause JO was for 6 yr olds

[legacy-ra1n]

Here is a thought, what would happen if the best q4 player on pc played the best q4 player on 360? Ouch, there would be no comparison. Q4 on pc even has tourny mods now. It has the feel of Q3, and the elite graphix of Q4. Just a thought.

Well, I suppose it would depend since both versions of Quake 4 are a bit different. I watched one of those Quake 4 tourneys on Gamespot a while back and it was interesting.

Thats what everyone that plays for cash plays with. Pro-mode is a must for any fps game. professional cyber-athletes need a little more pace.

Q4 on 360 is a nerfed Q4 overall.

[legacy-ra1n]

The Next gen F.E.A.R will rok every bodys sox!!!!

that will be the next big FPS

UT2k7 will knock everyones socks off. For a long time i will 2. I feel it.

[legacy-Dark_Sim]

M/K is better in terms of accuracy. Now, im not one to judge which is better, but certain games require M/K, while others can slap on a controller and work well.

[snoogans460]

M/K is better in terms of accuracy. Now, im not one to judge which is better, but certain games require M/K, while others can slap on a controller and work well.

Well said, I agree.

[legacy-A_Grunt]

M/K gives you far more accurate shooting, and you can turn faster, but controller gives you much better footwork. Playing UC2 with a m/k, you would probably lose out to a controller.

Certain people are susceptible to mouse/keyboard fatigue though, I can't play for more than half an hour with a m/k without my hands hurting. There is no way in hell I'm going to carpel tunnel myself so that self proclaimed leet nerds will approve of my controller setup.

[legacy-ra1n]

yeah thats why i made up a comfortable config other than the normal wasd movement. I just rest my left hand at the bottom left of the kb.
Pinky on left ctr - This is jump - spacebar = walk - left alt = duck
ring finger on z - this is my back key.
middlefinger x - this is my left sidestep
pointerfinger c - this is my right sidestep.

Right hand on mouse:

Left mouse button - Fire 1
Middle Mouse button - Fire 2 - Zoom*q3*
right mouse button - Forward key.

Then every button above and around: left ctrl, z, x, and c; are all for weapons, *use item*, grapplehooks, *potentially adren moves if uc2 was k/m.*

With that config mysidestep reaction is as fast as my left middle/pointer finger can move. rather than having to go by our mental ring finger that moves all of our fingers if we decide to use it.

I've been playing like that since quake 1.

[legacy-A_Grunt]

That is pretty smart. For me it's the mouse hand that starts aching though.

[legacy-ShredPrince2]

I use arrows and right CTRL.

I hear everyone just need to find their "spot".Wheter it's wasd, arrows oe something like TFGH, whatever works for you.

[snoogans460]

I've just about had it with PC gaming myself - just about. Ever since my PC's been acting up lately, gaming on the computer just hasn't been as much fun because of the apparent problems.

PC gaming offers many great elements that consoles can't touch - but also many more technical headaches that quite frankly... just isn't worth all the trouble somedays. Ehh, maybe I'm just bitter at the moment because my lap-top is unhealthy.