Envy = UT2006 or Envy = UT2

[legacy-Kronon]

Should Envy be a sequel to UT2004 or a sequel to UT? In other words, should Envy continue the 'sports' approach introduced in UT2003, or go back to its basic as a hardcore shooter like UT?

I would prefer if Epic took a step back, and make Envy like I think UT2003 should have been, by removing extra movements, making the weapons stronger, tighter maps with intense fights and generally be more of a sequel to UT than to UT2004.

Ofcourse the name isnt importent, but if Epic does make Envy more a sequel to UT than to UT2004, maybe Unreal Tournament 2 would be a better name?

/Kronon

[legacy--pure-Destruction]

"maybe Unreal Tournament 2 would be a better name?"

Roger That

[legacy-VickissV3]

it really wouldn't make sense to name it UT2 since there is already a sequel to UT 99 , whether people like the game or not. The Envy codename has been catching on as of late and would sounds kool to have it as the official name

[legacy-Kronon]

I think its safe to assume that the name will be "Unreal Tournament X", the only question is what X will be. There is to much value in the name "Unreal Tournament" for Epic to change it to something else.

ID will make Q4 as a sequel to Q2, so making sequels to not-the-latest version of a game is not unheard of.

But the name of the game is of less importance, the contents is what matters. I believe that Epic has learnt a lot from UT2003/UT2004 and will abandon that line (or atleast I hope they have), and make Envy into a fast paced, intense hardcore shooter like UT was.

And from what we know of the weapons, it seems to confirm this. UTs biggest drawback was its powerful minigun (although I whored it like a madman), and the minigun will not be in Envy.

/Kronon

[legacy-Retodon8]

I personally think sequals with just an added number have stupid names.
Sometimes they aren't even sequels, but prequels, story-wise.
Sometimes they don't even have anything to do with eachother.

I suppose it's cheaper not to spend a while to think of a good name, and more importantly it will make fans of the original buy the old game, but I'd still rather not play what sounds like the same game multiple times.

At least the added year tells something, namely of course which year the game was released.
It still doesn't do it for me.

As long as there's a subtitle, I don't mind any added numbers though, and even with a completely stupid name I'll buy the game (if I like it of course), but a good name never hurt anybody... did it?

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

oh, i hate the movement in Envy. I want something fast not slow as UT99, with those clumsy movements, that sucks.

[legacy-VickissV3]

oh, i hate the movement in Envy.
^^
lol no one has seen how it plays yet on how incredible the graphics are

[legacy-Bishop_Gantry]

It should go back to the basics of Unreal with revamped graphics, physics engine and veichlers...

Also contain Skaarj alot of Skaarj...

[legacy-fts]

"oh, i hate the movement in Envy. I want something fast not slow as UT99, with those clumsy movements, that sucks."

rofl ut99 is before your time son, despite what you say i doubt you have ever played it. i play both ut2k4/ut99 and many of the top players in the community all agree that ut99 movement, maps, and gameplay were all more fun that ut2k3/4's. i couldn't agree with kronon more.

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

i got UT99 and UT Goty, and i dont like the movement, but i still like the game, i just prefer the UT2004 movements, i like acrobatics. I got all unreals, dont post without knowledge about me.

[legacy-fts]

well obviously you're clueless since you think ut99 is slow. ut2k4 may seem faster because of the dodge jump but they are fairly equal. Again your opinion carries no weight due to the fact that you never played on a server where any kind of competition was present. you do not know what is best for the game, the only people who seem to have any sense are kronon, me, -pure-destruction, and a few others.

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

yeah? because they agree with you and have same opinion? dude... in my country we live in democracy, seems like yours doesnt.

[legacy-Holy_Avenger]

Besides, says who you know better? Also, like you said yourself, there are "just a few others" who share your opinion. If there are more people who prefer the newer movement why in the name of all that is holy would they have it like the older movement?

[legacy-fts]

alot of you don't know what you want and just take whatever they throw at you. There is a reason why UT99 was the best selling epic game of all time and don't give me this "gameplay needs to evolve" bull****.

[legacy-Holy_Avenger]

Would some admin ban him already? That is the one of the less intelligent comments I have ever heard on this forum, "you don't know what you want", and I suppose that the imaginery voices in your head know better than the primary source? Namely me. Man grow up, you are ruining these boards, you start a flame war in nearly every topic you post in you... Now I'll explain why I prefer the "faster" style. I like the dodging and movement you get from the additions, it's satisfying to do stunts that are both mind boggling and save your butt in the game if you know how, and it allows skilled players to dodge even more shots and thus survive longer if they have the skill. Plus in games where movement is crucial like capture the flag they are a huge bonus for a flag runner who knows them, especially if the people chasing can't perform the manuevers.

[legacy-fts]

all i have to say is rofl..

" like the dodging and movement you get from the additions, it's satisfying to do stunts that are both mind boggling"

If you want to dodge and do stunts your playing the wrong series.. this isn't a mario game it is a fast paced shooter. most of the ppl posting here are ut2k* players so in fact the majority of people on this forum favor the ut2k* movement. although there are alot more people who favor ut99's movement yet they play other games as of now and are just waiting for a true sequal of ut99 to arrive. it would be alot more profitable for epic to implement this type of movement and you know it.

"it allows skilled players to dodge even more shots and thus survive longer if they have the skill"

This comment alone is solid proof that you never have played against a truly "skilled" player. ut2k4 is a hitscan dominated game and if you're playing against a good dueller then you will dodge as little as possible so its harder for them to hit you with a lg shot or shock. Walljumps, dodgejumps etc. are mainly used to travel through the map.

"Plus in games where movement is crucial like capture the flag they are a huge bonus for a flag runner who knows them"

You obviously never played ctf in ut99, it was by far the most populated mod in ut's prime and for good reason too. ut2k4's movement is one of the many reasons why the ctf was a relative failure in the eyes of many players. As of now, there are better ctf players playing ut99 than ut2k4.

"Would some admin ban him already"

The admins will never ban me cause i'm sure they take my suggestions and feedback into consideration during this planning process. they also appreciate the comic value i provide as i continuously make kids such as DoMinAtor look like total morons.

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

''DoMinAtor look like total morons''

if you still insulting and flaming, you will get banned little kid.

[legacy-Holy_Avenger]

Somehow, your response dosn't surprise me fts. The only people I know as stubborn as you are little kids and old geezers. Plus your comment on hitscan weapons is BS, it allows you to move faster in more erratic patterns making it hard for someone to hit with hitscan weapons because of reaction time. No one can respond quickly enough to a dodge to change where they are aiming right as they click the fire button, so if timed correctly sheer human limitations would make it more difficult to hit someone dodging than someone just running or hopping like a bunny. While I agree CTF in UT2k4 isn't that fun, I don't believe it is do to movement. After all, you can play bombing run (which when you think about it is very similar) and that is very fun.

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

fts, you are saying that because you arent good
dodging and moving fast and you get owned by
the true skilled people at UT2004.

[legacy-fts]

first off, dom go back to english class and learn to type a readable sentence. Second, you're saying i'm not good? pm me an ip and we'll play sometime.. we both know you're all talk.

"it allows you to move faster in more erratic patterns making it hard for someone to hit with hitscan weapons because of reaction time"

Again, another point that proves you don't play against skilled players.. if you are in a lg fight with someone you would not dodge but instead just back peddle in different patterns to remain unpredictable.

sry for the thread hijacking, get back on topic ppl!

[legacy-Nosnos]

I havent really noticed the sportstheme in UT2003/UT2004... sure the intro in UT2003 was sporty and the games name... but other than that I don't see it... wasn't UT a sport as well though?

Anyways, it would probably be a good move to call it Unreal Tournament 2, but there would be a whole lot of pressure from the fans if they do pick that name... but tbh there are more important things than the name :)

[legacy-fts]

"I havent really noticed the sportstheme in UT2003/UT2004... sure the intro in UT2003 was sporty and the games name... but other than that I don't see it... wasn't UT a sport as well though?"

Yeah i think he's mostly referring to the name how they wanted to reproduce a madden esc yearly franchise. The whole game did sort of have a sports theme to it with the inclusion of bombing run and just the overall bright environment. I think the majority of the blame goes to Digital extremes who did most of the work on ut2k3 and UC1, epic salvaged what they could with ut2k4 since they had a deadline to meet.

[legacy-Retodon8]

It's kind of strange...
I remember visiting the Atari forums where a lot of people complained about Epic, because they screwed up the nice game DE made, pretty much the opposite of what I hear on these forums.

Most of them played the UT2003 leak, which worked differently from the final game in some aspects, meaning Epic must've been the culprit.
I don't think either is right, I'm sure both Epic and DE did things right as well as wrong.
Besides, most of it is opinion.

Whatever happened in the past, Epic has given itself a new chance now, and I'm sure they'll change things to get closer to the gameplay most people prefer.
UT2004 and the recent interviews etc. indicated that anyway.

[legacy-VickissV3]

its funny that people down the theme and atmosphere of ut2004 , yet it is the highest rated game in the Unreal series

[legacy--Mithan-]

People, keep it civil. Yes, this is a warning.

[legacy-fts]

You didn't have to close the most productive thread on the board over this..
the majority of thread was full of good suggestions.

"yet it is the highest rated game in the Unreal series"

actually ut99 was.. it received the highest pc rating of it's time on ign.com and won many "game of the year" rewards from numerous publications. ut2k4 is still a good game though =p

[legacy-VickissV3]

if you look at metacritic ut04 has a slightly higher rating

[legacy-fts]

"if you look at metacritic ut04 has a slightly higher rating"

ut2k4 has more reviews than ut99 since it came out later which of course will alter the scores; also 2 obvious quake bias reviews at the end change the average dramatically. ut2k4 has 47 reviews while ut99 has 21 reviews, your logic is skewed. The sales and community size speak for themselves.

Not worth arguing over though, both are good games :)

[legacy--pure-Destruction]

OMG BAN!
rofl
Thats the universal newb language. If ya dont like what someone says BAN EM!

Fan boys of both games are always going to disagree. Its up to the devs on how the game will turn out in the end. Im just for bringing back the Unreal/UT1 fundamentals. I like 2k4 somewhat, but never as much as I did UT1. Im also against the continuation of the 2k* name, shield gun, adrenaline, and some of the content design for powerups, and weapon balance/firing rates etc. All in 2k4.

[legacy-Retodon8]

Did you just call Epic newbies? :)
Mithan only warned us, and that'd be his job as an administrator.

[legacy--pure-Destruction]

Did you even read my post? Did it say Epic are newbs? God, people here are like 3 year olds. I have 10 posts, you have over a thousand. Registered around the same time too. Thats just sad...

But yea I think it is really lame for whoever locked that thread by fts, but really it was going nowhere just like this thread cause these idiots who have 1,000 post counts newb up perfectly mature threads about important developer issues with spam, flames, and irrelevant remarks about people with logic. This isnt the INA forums. So dont turn it into it.

[legacy-Retodon8]

*Sigh!* This is exactly why moderators have to hand out warnings.
Yes, I read your post.
Did it say Epic are newbs... no, that's why I asked if that was what you meant.
To return the question, did you read my post?

I know my post count is a bit high, but I had a good time here, and I'm sure I even managed to help a few people here and there without calling them 3-year olds, sad, idots, or the old favourite that lost all meaning, newbies.

Anyway, you're free to have your opinion, and I'm sure calling people newbies, idiots and whatnot will make them value yours so much more.
(INA has ceased to exist ages ago, never really was called INA in the first place, and turned into Atari.)

[legacy-Kronon]

Hmm, I am not used to watch flamewars in my threads, I am used to participate in them! :)

Anyway, the sports theme was more evident in UT2003 with bombing run and the intro, they reduced it some in UT2004.

But I still feel that UT2003/UT2004 and UT has some very important differences. Because while UT felt very hardcore and intense, UT2003 and UT2004 feels more calm and balanced (or something). I am not sure how to put in in words, lets just agree that they 'feel' very different.

The new movement, and the forced change in mapscale because of the new movement is definitely the main reason for this. The overall weak weapons also contributed. The old UT also had a more 'dirty' graphics (and I mean dirty in a non-sexual ways, you perverts).

I dont want Envy to become UT with better graphics, but I would prefer if Envy became more of a sequel to UT than to UT2004.

/Kronon

PS: I dont dare jump into any flamewars. I have a feeling I am at 14 WL points already from the start :)

[legacy-Retodon8]

(Sorry about the earlier off-topic-ness.)

I'm not saying you are saying this, but I think it's not really the sport's theme that's what's "wrong" (some people's opinion, not necesarily fact) with UT2003 and to a lesser degree -4.
If you'd ignore the intro and tutorial movies, change the announcer to the female one, there's not really much sport left, and it'd still feel like UT2003/4.
Well, Bombing Run is in a way, but you could argue CTF is as well then.

The different kinds of textures could be it, but when I think about it even with maps using the old UT textures I doubt it would make the feel much different from the way it is now.

That leaves the map scale and movement physics, which as you say are really the same thing, and the different weapons.
Again thinking about what would happen with the old weapon values I reach the conclusion it must be mostly the movement that's the most important aspect of what makes it feel like it does.
Epic already mentioned they are going to change that, so it's going to be different at least.
Better or worse... we'll find out in a while, and even then it'll be opinions.
Considering the fact Epic wants to make it more UT-like, probably better for most.

I realise I didn't really add much with this post, but that's because I seem to agree with you. :)

[legacy-Nosnos]

I think that the soundeffects in UT2003/UT2004 made it feel much more "sporty" compared to UT99... in UT2003 you dont feel how evil the weapons are for example, atleast I dont ^^

[The_Deacon]

"I think that the soundeffects in UT2003/UT2004 made it feel much more "sporty" compared to UT99... in UT2003 you dont feel how evil the weapons are for example, atleast I dont ^^"

*Nightmares about UDamage + minigun in UT :D

[legacy-wartex]

"But I still feel that UT2003/UT2004 and UT has some very important differences. Because while UT felt very hardcore and intense, UT2003 and UT2004 feels more calm and balanced (or something). I am not sure how to put in in words, lets just agree that they 'feel' very different."

I think the UT200X games are more hardcore and intesne (really intense) while UT99 is more old sk00l fragging fun, the weapons are slightely more user friendly in UT99 :)

"The old UT also had a more 'dirty' graphics (and I mean dirty in a non-sexual ways, you perverts)."

Yesh, I agree to that, it felt gritty.

[legacy-Kronon]

"I think the UT200X games are more hardcore and intesne (really intense)..."

I definitely dont agree. Playing a 5-map clanwar in UT was 10 times as much 'work' as a 5 mapper in UT2003/UT2004. The reason is that close in-your-face duels are much more intense than long range hitscan duels with LG or Shock.

I remember several times when I had sweat running down my face when playing a tough clanwar in UT, especially on maps like Codex or Turbine which was 100% pure adrenaline from start to end. Compared to that, clanwars in UT2004 is very calm and relaxing, even on small maps like Corrugation.

And even if the running speed in both games are roughly the same, the speed feels much faster in UT due to mapscale. The stronger weapons in UT also adds to the intensity.

/Kronon

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

''like Codex or Turbine which was 100% pure adrenaline from start to end. Compared to that, clanwars in UT2004 is very calm and relaxing, even on small maps like Corrugation. ''

wtf, i dont agree.
UT99 was calm and relaxed, BUT UT2004 ITS T¡100% adrenaline, its much more intense.
seems like you never played against a good clan.

[legacy-Kronon]

Dominator, I have played with and against the best clans in the world. Back in the early UT days when I played for mTw (german clan) we even got a sponsored trip over to USA to play a 'Best in the World' game against DD, which was the best NA clan back then. We won fairly easy.

For UT2003 and UT2004 I havent been as active as before, and played for different scandinavian clans, winning the CB OpenCup once for example.

Right now I am on a break (my fourth since UT), dunno if and when I will start playing again. I wont be a top player again (that takes to much time), but if you played me you would probably not notice the difference :)

And in my experience, clanwars in UT was much more intense and hardcore. So much more its hard to even compare. And they should be, considering the mapsizes and weapon strength.

/Kronon

[legacy-fts]

"we even got a sponsored trip over to USA to play a 'Best in the World' game against DD, which was the best NA clan back then. We won fairly easy."

haha i would say bmf was the best american team at the time, dd was more of a team full of duellers. never the less mtw had the rep of being one of the best if not the best (maybe 2nd to shuuk) tdm clan.
So in other words dom, kronon knows his poodo =P

[legacy-wartex]

"I definitely dont agree. Playing a 5-map clanwar in UT was 10 times as much 'work' as a 5 mapper in UT2003/UT2004. The reason is that close in-your-face duels are much more intense than long range hitscan duels with LG or Shock."

Yeah, I have to agree with you Kronan ^^, UT99 is more up-close and in-your-face than UT2k3/2k4. If Epic will move back to that style with Envy, i'd be glad. It'd be refreshing and classic at the same time :)

P.S Is there any old demo from the matches in U.S collecting dust somewhere? :)

[legacy-Kronon]

I think we played DD because they won some NA league, but back then the NA scene was bigger with strong clans like FYM, GF and BMF. And this was before Shuuk existed, before GitzZz time. Back then, Ocrana was the hardest european clan to play.

Then, at roughly the same time, a number of clans came forth and suddenly there where several fairly even clans (mTw, Ocrana, Shuuk, -X-, Xtreme and a few more).

Wartex, I dont think there was any demo recorded.

/Kronon

[legacy-Nosnos]

Going off topic a bit here... but do you know where one could find UT-demos? I wasn't so active during those days (sucky connection) so I never really experienced it... would be fun to see what it was like :)

[legacy-Kronon]

www.cached.net still has them it seems. Check out http://www.cached.net/?go=%2A/demo/archive///0/50/game/Unreal%20Tournament

But I guess you need to spend a few hours setting up mutators first. Also, there is a mutator that greatly changes the weapon strength thats been used lately I think. I havent been active in the UT community since UT2003 was released, so I dont know the name of exactly what it does, but I think it makes the minigun much weaker for one thing, so if you want to see the 'real' UT, try older demos.

This one might be fun: http://www.cached.net/?go=%2A/demo/single/214////game/Unreal%20Tournament

If its the demo I think it is, then its the first map we lost (I didnt play in that war though, probably why we lost :). We had something like 200 straight map-wins before this one. The demo is from a league-final, and we won the final but lost this map.

There is also a classic game between GitzZz (unknown then) and Horny, where Horny loses on Deck16, and another classic game between mTw and Ocrana on Deck16, with overtime and all. One of the best demos I have seen.

The CB final between mTw and -X- is also amasing. -X- is up with 6 frags at the end in the fifth and deciding map (Tempest), when Horny gets the amp and things get spicy.

/Kronon

[legacy-fts]

The euro scene has always had better tdm teams but in ctf and 1v1, NA was stronger in ut's prime. The only time destrukt and gitzzz played, dkt won on a euro server with 160 ping. I also remember hearing about c1 or 187 beating a few top euro clans with insane pings.

[legacy-Kronon]

Yes, in the early days the NA scene was stronger, even in TDM. NA had some nice players like Overtoad, TheOtherGuy, SATAN, Sicko, destrukt. Destrukt is probably one of the best non-aim duellers I have seen (together with zulg). But then came GitzZz with his 45cm sensitivity and all changed :)

Speaking of aim, its interesting to note that despite stronger hitscan weapons and slower projectile weapons, aim in UT was not as important as aim is in UT2003/UT2004. A lot of high-sensers in UT like zulg and fragmaster held their own pretty well, but had to lower their sensitivity in UT2003.

/Kronon

[legacy-wartex]

"Going off topic a bit here... but do you know where one could find UT-demos? I wasn't so active during those days (sucky connection) so I never really experienced it... would be fun to see what it was like happy"

Yay, nosnos finaly got his lazy arse to the epic boards :]

More stories Kronon, it's like haveing a virtual grand father ^^
Thx for the links, gonna check those demos...

[legacy-fts]

"Yes, in the early days the NA scene was stronger, even in TDM. NA had some nice players like Overtoad, TheOtherGuy, SATAN, Sicko, destrukt. Destrukt is probably one of the best non-aim duellers I have seen (together with zulg)."

yeah overtoad was a beast especially considering he used a joystick.. supposely he never even lost a map in unreal 1 and was the player to beat in ut until he stopped playing as much. imo the best duellers were 1.overtoad 2. destrukt 3. gitzzz, too bad they never got to play each other in their primes.

[legacy-wartex]

"yeah overtoad was a beast especially considering he used a joystick.."

Respect..

[legacy-Kronon]

Lets go back to the topic!

I started UT2004 for the first time in a few weeks, after relax-playing some shooters like HL2 and D3, and the first thing I thought was how close to the ground you are (or atleast it feels that way). Now its easy to think this is because of eye-height, and in a way it is. But not because your field-of-vision is below your eyes, but because your character is so small in comparison to the surroundings.

So even if I have played lots of UT2003/UT2004, just a quick detour to HL2 and D3 made me feel the wrongness of mapscale.

/Kronon

[legacy-fts]

sry to get off topic but support destrukt by voting for him in the painkiller category of the "vallstars". http://www.vsportsallstars.com/all_stars.php register a quick ggl account and you're set

[legacy-Retodon8]

I am going to eat a pizza in a few minutes.
Does anybody else like pizza?

[face_rolling_eyes]

[legacy-FViral]

Me!

[fuegerstef]

Hey, I am having Pizza too in a few minutes...

Then I will call a fried to ask what he's doing tonight.

[legacy-fts]

papa john's pizza is da best evaaa!

[fuegerstef]

Best Pizza is the one I do myself...

[legacy-Thanatos]

I don't think some people realize that Retodon8 was being sarcastic here.

[legacy-Kronon]

I feel this thread has turned into something completely different. And yes, I also like pizza (either very spicy ones, or with pineapple, or both).

/Kronon

[legacy-Spartan_15]

Unreal Championship 2 good name for it.
-_-

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

''Unreal Championship 2 good name for it.
-_- ''

what you mean? Envy its not Unreal Championship 2, Envy is UT2006, next year.

[fuegerstef]

It won't be even Unreal Championship 3.

[legacy-Retodon8]

"Unreal Championship 2 good name for it."

No, it wouldn't be.
UT2003/4 changed UT's gameplay when it came to player movement: farther dodges, double jumps, wall dodges, that kind of thing.
After that UC2 took it a step further, including even higher, farther, and stranger jumps and dodges.
The next UT however will go exactly the other way if I understand Epic right, a more realistic movement scheme with more running, less flying.

Of course maybe I shouldn't make that distinction, the next UC (if it will even be made, who knows) might have more old-fashioned running as well.
Still, I doubt it, considering regular FPSs don't work as well on consoles with gamepad controllers as UC2 does, at least in my opinion.
Old fashioned running and mouse aiming works better on PC, fancy jumps work better on consoles.
Maybe UC3 will show more of the Necris; a championship organised by the Phayder company.
It could be offically acknowledged by the Liandri company because they owe the Phayder for... well, the regular UC2 spoiler. :)
Probably more likely than a match on the Skaarj homeworld, since humans would be nuts going there, plus the whole Skaarj homeworld is pretty much completely unknown as of now.

Anyway, it wouldn't be a good name. :)

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

Skaarj homeworld will be not revealed.

[legacy-Morphias]

Just something I did when I heard about Envy.
[image=http://members.optusnet.com.au/~nijelm/UT2.jpg]

[legacy-Ryx_Holguin]

For Envy I would love to see more of the sports aspect. Imagine... ESPN UT 2K5!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[legacy-Thanatos]

Yuck, for the love of God, NO! Drop the sports aspect in the UT games!!! It's about psychotic criminals and other scum fighting either for fun or because they're sentenced to death by forcing them to fight in the arenas!

[legacy-Ryx_Holguin]

But the games are about a sport. A futuristic bloodsport but still a sport. They're all about a tournament, a management aspect would be cool. Watching tapes of Malcolm practicng to improve your team, trading players and a league calender would be good.

[legacy-SunTzu2]

I think it should more like the original, but of course better. And code name Envy is a good name, much better and more creative the whole yearly title thing.

[legacy-Kain-Xavier]

Personally, I think it would be more interesting to just call it Envy or Unreal Tournament: <Subtitle>.

As for the ongoing debate...

Software developers do not make enough money (for the most part,) to design a product strictly geared towards their hardcore audience. The most lucrative market is that of the casual gamer. (If you can attract non-gamers, even more power to you.)

The tricky part is that people have come to expect bonus content and expansions for PC titles. So either the developer has to split their resources on some kind of expansion pack while they're working on their next title, or they have to rely on their fan-base to produce extra content. Generally, the only members of the fan-base that would generate extra content would be the hardcore fans, and this is where you have to decide where to draw the line.

If you're going to keep catering to the hardcore fans, things aren't going to change and they'll get stagnant, eventually causing the community to collapse itself, and the overall franchise to tarnish. (This isn't true in all cases, but it's a good guideline really.)

If you cater to the casual audience, the sales will be there but the community won't. However, many casual players do not know or care about the community surrounding a particular game, but there are some whose interest grows as they learn more and more about the fan-base of a particular game that they enjoy. The ones who are interested become regular customers as a result, and they are more willing to try future products.

When Epic released UT2003, many hardcore fans of the original Unreal Tournament rejected it. (Interestingly enough, there was still a strong community going though.) In response to this, Epic created a bonus pack. (If I didn't have Onslaught, I'd still be playing Invasion. :p) When that failed, they started drafting up UT2004.

In my opinion, UT2004 was packed to the rim full of fan-service for both casual fans of the Unreal series and the hardcore UT fans. The bonus pack released for UT2004 even further solidifed that wonderful balance by adding new content as well as recognizable characters from the original UT. I'm not too sure about you all, but I noticed a huge influx of both casual and hardcore player alike with the release of UT2004. (The community that developed around UT2004 was insane with activity, but that could also be attributed to the Make Something Unreal contest.)

Getting to a conclusion of some point, even if Envy somehow manages to utterly isolate the hardcore fans of the original UT, UT2003, UT2004, or UC2, I don't believe you should lose faith in Epic because they are one of the most hardcore-fan-conscientious companies out there. Hell, there are even mutators in Unreal Tournament 2004 that will alter the gameplay/graphics to resemble the older titles. UC2 has a similar feature as well.

Two more things...

As much as people love UT, it was not the first game in the Unreal series to have a multi-player component; Unreal was, and UT was derived from it. I suggest you check that one out if you're interested in seeing the changes made from Unreal to Unreal Tournament versus UT to UT2003.

Last thing...

This is a minor quirk of mine, so ignore it if you must, or appease me by spreading the gospel, but it's "UT" and not "UT '99" dammit. I don't care what year it was released, it wasn't released under that title so it shouldn't be referred to as such. Referring to it as "UT '99" also could confuse newcomers to the series and make them think there was a previous Unreal Tournament or that perhaps "UT" and "UT '99" were different games.

Anyhow, off to bed so that I can make more coherent posts tomorrow. :)

[legacy-Kronon]

Some good points Kain, although I think you are missing a few important issues: why does a game attract hardcore and/or new players?

Hardcore gamers are in a way the easiest to answer: they want it like before, only better. This holds true for all hardcore gamers for all games, and the Unreal series is no exception.

New players and casual gamers is in a way harder to please, since their requirements are more focused on cutting edge technology. They want lots of eyecandy and special effects, big and powerful weapons, large vehicles, cool explosions, and so on.

So far this diversity is not a problem, since its definitely possible to combine them into one game. But when you add gameplay into the mix, it gets really tricky. Because while hardcore gamers (especially competitive players) wants a shooter with little or no luck, and weapons balanced from a skill-perspective, new players wants to get a frag or two while playing. And if no luck existed, and every weapon was as powerful as its vielder, new players would never ever get a single frag, and hence quickly get tired and quit playing.

The problem with UT2003 was that Epic failed in both ways:
1. They failed to attract new players, since the movement system and weapon strength made the learning curve very steep, and new players had a very tough time.
2. Old UT players did not like the change in weapon strengths and movement, and in many cases continued to play UT.

UT on the other hand did have a lot of problem for hardcore gamers (spammy weapons, not the best weapon balance, etc), but it did enable new players to enjoy the game. Everyone could get a frag or two on the pubs in UT.

My opinion is that Epic should make Envy a game with the movement and weapon strength from UT, but with the weapon spamminess and individual balance from UT2004.

/Kronon

[legacy-VickissV3]

UT Envy = UT 3

[legacy-Rubberhead]

One thing I'dd like to see making a return is the violent feeling from UT and 2003 (in ways).
UT2004 goes too soft on players IMO. It's in the little things, like screen flashes (notice the difference in impact between versions!). The gib effects (still best in 99 imp), the death animations like in 99, eg. sight turns blank on death..., and the sound weapons make. Strong weapons should make fearsome noizes with a descent bass. Something I'dd miss a bit in 2004.

Also, I think weapon models should be a bit more robust.
The way they changed the link gun in 2004 is NOT the way to do it. Not al those needless cables and switches but a solid and detailed construction. The new flak cannon seems to be suffering from this.

Other then that, KEEP THE SPAMMINESS TO A MINIMUM. Splash damage should be tested, tested and retested to not make it seem spammy.

Movement can be tuned down, but look for something inbetween 99 and 2004. I'dd like to see stuff like walljumps and dodges. But all the double jump stuff puts allot of players off the game.

The first impression I got from UT to UT2003 is that the game seemed so FUTURISTIC. Darker, alien scum fighting in arenas... not sponsored marksmen fighting for huge sums of money.

I'm neutral on the sportsy subject tough. Allways tought it was kinda cool. But I like to see this community as a democracy, so everyone's vote counts.

...I wasn't ranting was I?

[legacy-Kain-Xavier]

For a while there, I thought that I had killed off the thread, but it's good to see more people posting. :)

You made some excellent points as well Kronon, but I want to give you my perspective on why I agree/disagree.

"1. They failed to attract new players, since the movement system and weapon strength made the learning curve very steep, and new players had a very tough time."

Being a great fan of platformer games like the Mario series and the Sonic series, I love the sense of freedom I get by being able to haul ass and pull off crazy jumps. UT2003's movement system started to hint at this, and Unreal Championship 2 damn near perfected such a system.

As for the learning curve, I must admit that pulling off wall-jumps and whatnot is not that easy to do on a keyboard, nor is it very intuitive when playing from a first-person perspective. However, I disagree with just stripping away the functionality enitrely; it just needs to be revised a bit.

The dodge system is part of what makes Unreal unique, but it's not ideal for scaling/jumping off of walls via jump-dodging. (The whole double-tap an arrow key is hard on my fingers in general.) Why not handle wall-jumping the same way Unreal Championship 2 does? Press/hold the direction opposite of the wall and hit jump. This seems much more intuitive to me, because it is how other games in the past have achieved the same functionality. Granted, it'll still be difficult to achieve on a keyboard, but it makes more sense than having to double-tap every time to do it.

There is a concern that I am sure may be raised in regards to Envy. How will the increased ability to perform crazy aerobatic maneuvers affect the vehicle aspect of Envy. In short, it would render vehicles useless, but the design of the map really dictates what kind of tactics are available to you. Wall-dodging was more of a gimmick in UT2003 than it was something you could rely upon as a defensive maneuver. It was the same way in UT2004, and it was even less effective in the large scale maps featured in Assault and Onslaught. The reason why it worked in UC2 so well is because the maps were filled with "chimneys" so to speak that allowed you to quickly scale upwards. The closest thing you could get to that feature in UT2003/UT2004 is the slope dodge, which is really more of a glitch than it is a feature. (Although I guess, DM - Rankin in UT2004 did use it to good effect.)

And I think, that's enough about the movement system. I was going to talk more about my opinion on the dodge/dodge-jump and possibly touch on the importantance of third-person, but bleh, this post is too damn long already. :)

As for the weapon strength, I can neither agree or disagree. While I rarely play UT, UT2003, or UT2004 online, I still played them often at LANs. My friends and I never had a problem with the weapon balance in UT2003, and I did not even realized the weapons were altered in UT2004 at first other than the rocket-launcher/lightning gun quick-switch thing. I do like UT2004 more than UT2003, but weapon balance isn't my reason why.

"UT on the other hand did have a lot of problem for hardcore gamers (spammy weapons, not the best weapon balance, etc), but it did enable new players to enjoy the game. Everyone could get a frag or two on the pubs in UT."

I personally wouldn't consider myself a hardcore gamer (in regards to the Unreal series,) but that's exactly why I was put off by UT. UT2003/UT2004 just seemed so much more balanced to me. I'm not haughty either, I could care less whether or not a brand new player or an experienced player could best me. That kind of thing just drives me to get better and/or share tactics. :)

[legacy-DagnyTaggart]

I hope that Envy turns out to be a bona fide UT 2. The general consensus amongst UT ('99) players is that UT 2003 was horrible while UT 2004 was merely tolerable.

One thing Epic might want to consider is to look at player counts for the three games at certain amounts of time after the release date. When I picked up UT for the first time in Feb 2001, the CTF servers were packed with at least 3000 players at one time--and that was only the CTF servers. Can UT 2003 or UT 2004 say the same for a single mod two years after the game's release? I don't know, but I'm under the impression that the answer would be "no" for sure.

One of the reasons to get rid of the Super Mario double jumps is for ease of movement--let people focus more on tactics, anticipating the enemy's movement, and surprise than fancy jump moves. It's supposed to be a hard core shooter and even a team game, not a jumping game.

Another question to consider is whether UT 2004 would have been as popular as it was if there had never been a UT '99. I predict that if UT Envy is produced as a bona fide UT-2 that it will sell like hotcakes once people find out about it.

[legacy-Kronon]

I think its important to realize that a popular game is not necessarily a game that you like, but insted is a game that many new players like. And if the unreal series should have any future, Epic needs to make the next game more newbie-friendly.

Unfortunately, that will result in some new features that we hardcore players dont like very much, and removal of some old features that we hardcore players like, but I for one would prefer this to a game that only attract oldtime hardcore UT players.

And I think that the main aspect of UT that made is so popular was its hardcore feeling. It was fast and furious, and the weapon strength made it possible for even new players to get a frag or two.

When the weapon strength was reduced, and extra movement introduced in UT2003, the effect was that new players had a hard time to learn the game, and while they learned it they where pretty useless.

/Kronon

[legacy-A_Grunt]

This thread has been an impressive read, with lots of good points coming in on all sides. I'm glad to see the flames died out, the last thing we want this place to become is another bnet.

Personally I feel that if Epic wants to attract more new gamers then they should go more towards the less bouncy UT style game as opposed to UT2003/4 or Unreal Championship II.

I find it very difficult to introduce people to gaming using UT200-whatever, and for Ureal Championship, well, forget it.

In my experience the two best games, on PC and console for introducing people to gaming and yet still being able to hold an experienced gamers interest are UT and Halo:CE respectively.

[legacy-Thanatos]

IMO I think the sports aspect of UT should be shot directly into the balls and therefor the 200* extention should be ditched as well. I've said this a couple of times before...

Here's what the backside of the PS2 version of UT99 says, and IMO this perfectly defines what UT should be all about:

"Brutality is a way of life and bleeds through the dark cracks of society, threatening the power of the ruling corporations. They must seek a way to placate the masses - a profitable way...

Gladiatorial combat is the answer. Slaking the mob's thirst for bloodshed, it provides a method of being rid of the so-called troublemakers who threaten the corporate elite."

And I had that feeling while I played UT99, but not while playing UT2003/4. In UT99, a lot of the warriors (mostly criminals) merely fought just for freedom and salvation, but now it has been degenerated completely to a sports game, where it's all about money and power - NOT interesting.

So much for the atmosphere... As for the weapons:

The new designs of the Link Gun (UT2003/4) didn't impress me in the least. In fact I think it's the fugliest weapon model ever in the franchise, which reminded me much of my lego-blocks back in the old days. Furthermore the classic projectiles looked MUCH better. In UT2003/4 it doesn't even look remotely like what I'd expect what plasma would like. Where's the cool rotating barrel?

Personally I think the damage in UT2004 is right. I'd only like the Rocket Launcher to be a bit more cumbersome, but deadlier (like in UT99).

Furthermore, I think throwing the Ion Cannon and the Target Painter back in would be a waste of time and effort. I'm already happy enough with the Redeemer. I think it's the most fun superweapon to use anyway.

As for the music, I already said this before as well, but I'll say it again because I can't stress this enough: please, please, please, drop the fanfare music such as UC2's Tournament fanfare!!! It even makes me turn the speakers off as I'm ashamed when others are around while that outrageously retarded music blares out of my boxes. When I hear it I still don't know whether I have to laugh my a$$ off or cry like a little girl in the corner.

All the rest has been said, I believe. This concludes my rant :)

Hopefully I didn't sound too negative about UT2004, since I enjoyed that game (although not as much as the classic UT :p)

[legacy-A_Grunt]

If it's any consolation, at least Epic didn't bend their hardcore fans over and totally abuse them the way Bungie did with Halo 2

[legacy-Thanatos]

I don't know about Bungie and Halo's story (never played those games), but I'm 100 % sure Epic loves and cares about their fans.

If they didn't, we wouldn't see the Classic UT mutator or UT2004.

But UT2004 wasn't SUCH a disappointment to me. The only thing I really had problems with was the fact that the classic atmosphere was screwed over by the sportsy thing... From the look of my previous post, my complaints had more to do with the game's atmosphere rather than the gameplay. I'll leave it to the real hardcore players to decide what should be the best for the next UT in terms of gameplay (not the purists, though... If Epic would listen to them we'd be playing a UT99 clone in a few years).

[legacy-Kronon]

I agree, I hope Epic presents a more exciting storyline than just a ladder competition. The sports theme was a big mistake in the first place.

There has to be many ways to blend the gladiator theme into a story. For example, you are a prisoner in a high security prison and the only way to regain your freedom is to participate in the gladiator game that has become so popular.

With the new conquest gametype, it might even be possible to place you in a war, for example against the Necris. Each map would then be an in important battle, and the game would be like a futuristic version of CoD or MoH.

You could even combine the stories: first you have to fight your way to freedom (DM/TDM/1-on-1), but once free you are forced into joining the navy and battle the dreaded necris (onslaught and conquest).

Anything is better than the ladder theme, thats for sure.

/Kronon

[legacy--pure-Destruction]

Well, it is a "Tournament" but I dont think Id like to look at the game as a "Sport" even if it is a future intergalactic competition and the competitors make money traveling worlds killing each other. It should be like Unreal, and have a single player story, something that hasnt been done before... or if it has, just do it better. Not the same ol "Juggs and the Mercinaries will face off next week on ESPN2 for another bloodbath tournament for Liandri Corporation!" Its slight role playing, futuristic, tactical combat. Not Madden 2k* football.

[legacy-Thanatos]

Oh, one more thing:

I sure hope Epic will tweak the bots when it comes to using invisibility (if it's used in UT2007 at all). It simply doesn't have any effect on them. Considering this "glitch" hasn't been fixed even now, I'm sure it's a problem that almost cannot be solved... :-?

[legacy-Holy_Avenger]

Invivibility works better on bots than humans in UC2, so why shouldn't they respond to it realisticly in UT2007?

[legacy-Thanatos]

Really? I haven't played UC2, so I didn't know.
That's nice :).

[legacy-Holy_Avenger]

Yes, it finally works in UC2. It's quite useful against the bots but if someone's even some what close to you they can see your "outline" so it dosn't work with people real well. I personally can't wait to see the new bots in action, hopefully their "fighting style" will be closer to actual players.