IG in Envy

[legacy-Kronon]

There is no doubt that if Epic did not include IG in Envy, it would be made as a mutator, and the old IG hardcore players would play IG anyway. But do we really want a lot of IG servers out there? Isnt it better if the game, out-of-the-box, is played with (un)real weapons in all gametypes?

I have always felt that IG did more harm than good to all of the UT games. Nothing has split the community like IG has, and the more the community is split, the shorter its lifespan becomes. So my suggestion is to leave IG out of the game. Let the new players play the game as its ment to be played.

/Kronon

[The_Deacon]

The thing is, the IG community would have an IG mutator out within days probably (only a simple extension of the shock rifle will be required). IG servers would be running as rampant as they are now within a month if not less I think.

Either way, you'll have instagib whether you like it or not. With an unofficial IG mutator it probably will mean less casual newbies find it. This type of player is the one most likely to be deterred by the time/effort needed to get competent with normal weapons and while in UT/UT200x they would probably come across IG and maybe find that enough to keep them playing the game, with a harder to find IG, they would just not play anymore.

I'm only speculating here of course.

[legacy-Kronon]

The reason for not having an official IG mutator would be precisely that. New players would not immediately see it, and stick to the NW servers a little longer. Eventually they might try IG, and if they like it start playing it, but I don't see that as a problem. At least they have tried the game as it should be played before playing IG.

In UT2003, I remember hearing a new player complaining about how strange UT2003 was compared to other shooters. He thought it was strange that the game only had one weapon :)

/Kronon

[The_Deacon]

"In UT2003, I remember hearing a new player complaining about how strange UT2003 was compared to other shooters. He thought it was strange that the game only had one weapon"

I think that was why the UT2004 demo didn't have instagib in :D

[legacy-nELsOn]

"In UT2003, I remember hearing a new player complaining about how strange UT2003 was compared to other shooters. He thought it was strange that the game only had one weapon"

lol... yeah. when a friend of mine showed me a ut(99) match i was wondering about that too ^^
maybe that's another reason why the quake series is a bit more famous or something - it's just joining a game and you're all set...

[RoadKillGrill]

IG needs to be included, while insa can be seen as a stupid mutator, there are ladders that have insta. there are many veriations currenly out on the insta wepon theme but the out of the box insta gib mutator is used in competitions.if they want to keep the old insta fanbase, they will have the mutator.
i fear if the communitry makes insta, there will be many veriations, none are right none are wrong.
i dont want the same thing that happened to Zark Rifles, i rarly see the same zark rifle, there either 50 ammo, infinate, some are zero ping, others have 5 different zark rifles, some are hitscan others are fast plasma burst-like things, all of them are "zark"

[legacy-Kronon]

"if they want to keep the old insta fanbase, they will have the mutator"

Now why would they want that? I am all for competitive gaming, and I often argue that the competitive community helps Epic sell more games. But then I mean 1-on-1 and TDM. And the reason those are the most important is that they are the ones selected for the big LANs, which creates a lot of news buzz and gives Epic/UT free commercial.

The IG competitive community is very 'quiet'. And besides, they will survive anyway, since there will be an IG mutator within a week after the game is released.

Fact is, IG has hurt the UT community more than anything else, and will continut to do so. One way to lessen the damage is for Epic to not include IG in the first place.

It will also make it less likely for new players to stumble into an IG server and gets the wrong impression of the game.

/Kronon

[RoadKillGrill]

i know that even if they dont include instagib, there will be a instagib mutator out, however im sure there will be more than just one to choose from. more than one will make one and then there will be 20 different instagib mutators and there all slightly different, there will be no standard. i duno how you see insta as a "damageing" cursed mutator. i didnt even know bout it the first month or so i had the game, i just played dm and ons.

[musilowski]

I'd say keep it in... :o

[legacy-Grimlock]

Is that all you care about? One ferking weapon?

Wow, I'm really glad Epic put so much blood sweat and tears into their games JUST so you can can play IG. :rolleyes:

[The_Deacon]

Strange as it may seem, some people play and enjoy both normal weapons and instagib. There is nothing wrong with being concerned about one of the (if not the) most popular official mutator in the entire game.

I you don't care for insta, fine. It's not going to take Epic long to code an enhanced shock rifle, and the only significant time spent will be testing the time between shots probably. It's not going to be a significantly large portion of dev time, but it's one that many people will appreciate being official.

[legacy-Kronon]

Deacon, you are missing the point. If Epic makes the mutator, it means they endorse it and wants player to use it (why else include it). But why would Epic wants players to play the game with only one weapon?

I know I don't want them to include IG, since in my opinion IG has hurt the community more than it has help it. And if Epic leaves it out, new players wont be able to use it and will, atleast initially, play the game the way its ment to be played.

/Kronon

[The_Deacon]

The thing is, there are a lot of people that wouldn't buy the game without instagib. Even though it would be modded within days if not hours. The instagib community is sufficiently large to warrant support for imo. There are many people that play instagib because they don't have the time nor desire to learn the ins and outs of the normal weapons in order to gain any satisfaction playing. Instagib is very casual gamer friendly because at all but the most competetive levels, you can get kills. Casual players want near instant gratification and instagib allows that much more than NW.

There are people like me, who started with insta (in UT personally) and was instantly capable with it, and soon enough I was topping servers relatively often. I decided that I wanted to get more from the game (UT2003 by now) and realised that NW would give me this. I got panned for a few weeks though, and it's never nice to lose horribly, especially when coming from something where you win a lot. I had the sense to persevere though, because I had the time available and wanted to put the effort in. Casual gamers won't have that most of the time so they won't normally switch from insta to NW.

At the same time though, the casual gamer that starts with NW will also come across the same situation where they get battered, and they're unlikely to continue until they can hold their own. If they find an insta server by chance there's a good likelihood they'll be enticed by the 'easier to get into' gameplay.

Now, this is using UT/UT2003/UT2004 as our examples, and we know they have a nasty learning curve that will deter the casual gamer. ENVY is expected to have an easier learning curve so yes, the issue won't be as prominent. Epic made a very good descision with the UT2004 demo not including instagib. I can't praise that enough. The new players got to see what the game is REALLY about, and used their own judgement on whether it's worth their time. The vets knew what they liked, and knew insta would be in the final game (for those that cared) so everyone won really.

What I'm trying to get at here is that by excluding insta entirely from the full game, they would remove a large potential player base, that's the sum of the current insta players and the casuals that don't/can't cope with the extensive gameplay mechanics involved in NW.

Another thing that I think Epic did right was the seperation of iCTF as it's own gametype in the server browser. The mistake was that you could still get insta games via normal CTF games. I think for ENVY, the split should be complete in the server browser. Don't treat insta as just an ordinary mutator in this situation. This would (mostly) put an end to players joining a game to find that they've only got one weapon (happened too many times it seems :P).

Leaving insta to a community mutator will lead to about 20 different mutators that any poor newbie could come across. Having it built in yet distinc from NW means it's easy for insta lovers to get insta games, and for NW lovers to get NW games. I don't think this can be a bad thing.

One last thing. I think Epic should make explanations of pretty much EVERYTHING somewhere. In the manual, via in game tutorials, via an in game context sensitive help system or whatever it takes for there to be a little confusion as possible in all areas. If you know what you're getting, you're much less likely to be dissapointed with what you get.

I hope that lot makes things a bit clearer on my thoughts :) (haven't re-read it before posting, I don't dare)

[RoadKillGrill]

by includeing it doent mean there endorseing it. how many servers run the Vampire mutator? its included.......
If epic does not include instagib that DOES NOT mean that people will play the game pure.
i fear that if epic does not maker the instagib mutator i fear that there will be many different instagib mutators made by the comunity within days of release, there will be no untformity and it will make a even more broken community.

[legacy-Rubberhead]

I prefer normal weaps, but I can enjoy a bit insta once in a while. MY main concern is that if Epic doesn't include it, those horible instaZark-multibeam-machinegun-shockrifles will win in. Wich I do NOT want to happen...