Unreal tournament "Envy"

[legacy-fts]

Locked. This thread has turned into a general flame war. Take this as a warning not to do that.

As many have seen already, the new ut game codenamed "envy" has been previewed in the may 2005 issue of cgw. In this thread post what you think needs to be added and other recommendations that will help the next ut become a worthy predecessor to ut99. If you have never played ut99 or ut2k3/4 competitively please don't post. (sticky please)

-IF the lg is no longer existent as planned, at least make the sniper a worth hitscan weapon. Please don't add the puff of smoke present in ut2k4 and maybe change the rate of fire.

-Focus most of your effort on tdm/dm and ctf first, since those are the two mods where the hardcore ut community thrives in. I like what i hear about how you're putting gameplay before graphics this time around.

-The ctf in ut2k3/4 was total crap, try to make the overall feel of it just like ut99. Change back the translocator speed/feel and definately no adrenaline. Instead of having 20+ maps that for the most part play horribly, try to make like 8-10 that are competitive worthy and have good flow and balance to them. (maybe beta test within the community)

-Tdm/dm in ut2k3/4 was a somewhat success but as said in the article, some of the insane bouncy movement needs to be cut down. I am in heavy favor of taking out the double jump/dodge jump so fights aren't all hitscan. Having adrenaline present is up to you, i personally don't like it but alot of the top clans do. Like i said with ctf, have at least 8-10 competitive worthy maps. In ut2k3/4 there are only 3 maps that are currently played in 1v1's. I think there should be at least 5-6 great maps that play well for 1v1.

-Onslaught is loved by mostly newbies or casual players but has little competitive community do to it's repetitive/skill-less play. I am in heavy favor of a major ONS revamp where there is less vehicle combat and more fragging. Constantly linking nodes is a huge turnoff, maybe add another element of play that is less repetitive.

-The new conquest mode sounds promising, It seems like it might play like u2xmp which is a good thing. If this is pulled off right i could definately see a competitive community forming in this mod. Try to focus the vehicles as means of transportation so the mod is more strategic and fragging oriented. i was a huge fan of u2xmp despite the bugs so i expect good things =)

-I noticed that br, dom, lms, assault etc. were dropped and i think that is a great idea! having tons of mods divided the ut2k* community into nothing. I hope you also decide to take out instagib/zark mods as well, it would be a good step in the right direction.

-Instead of spending thousands of dollars on a MOD contest, why not use the money towards hosting a competitive yearly ut tournament similar to quakecon. people are currently under the impression that epic doesn't care about their fans; i believe a "unrealcon" was being formed at the beginning of ut2k4 but was shutdown due to lack of support from you guys. Having cash tournies would gain epic fan support and media exposure. Also exerting effort to have ut as the next cpl world tour game wouldn't hurt.

btw here's a link an info page for those who haven't seen it. http://beyondunreal.com/main/future/envy.php

[legacy-fts]

-There was mention in the article of a stat site that would display accurate clan/individual stats and other goodies that would be web utilized. Anyways, i think a great way to reunite the community would be to implemate a series of "official ladders/leagues" on that ut site; maybe even have small cash prizes to the victors similar to ggl. This way the main competition would be on one ladder/league instead of spread out on 3 or 4; just another way to give back to the fans and promote ut:envy's life span.

[legacy-Volt]

I didn't read everything, but I disagree with you on your point about using money for a tournament instead of a modding contest. The modding contest can really help people break into the professional game design scene. A tournament, on the other hand, would make people break their chairs from practicing at their computers too much.

[legacy-Bishop_Gantry]

if you wanna frag stay in DM Ons is not about fragging...

so linkin nodes is repetitive but fragging isnt...

sorry but thats really farfetched reason for changing Ons...

and as far as competitive players goes, they are a small minority with a self destructive culture...

[The_Deacon]

"...I hope you also decide to take out instagib..."

I very much doubt this will happen (and I'm very glad of that). Dropping instagib would remove loads of players. iCTF is a very popular gametype, although not as popular in UT2k* as it ever was in UT but this is mainly a maps/gameplay issue that shold hopefully be solved in the next game anyway. I don't care much for the x% gamespeed low-grav stuff that seems to dominate the NA iCTF scene though (here in europe we have much more classic iCTF going around).

Even if instagib was taken out, it'd only be modded back in within days of the game's release anyway. We're better off hainv Epic instagib put in then it's easy enough to filter out (even more so if they do what they did with iCTF and make it an actual gametype)

[legacy-Kronon]

While I do hope to see some quality DM and CTF maps, I think Epic needs to attract new players more than please the old hardcore community (and yes, I am a part of that, since Unreal).

The reason is obvious: we need new players, and new players today don't start with DM or CTF, they like bigger more tactical oriented gametypes. Onslaught and the new Conquest sounds perfect.

If the bigger gametypes attract new players, the smaller and more competitive oriented gametypes will also receive its share of new players.

/Kronon

[legacy-Thanatos]

Bah, I never understood how people can enjoy Instagib games. With that mutator on the game's strategy level plummets down to zero.

[legacy-fts]

"The modding contest can really help people break into the professional game design scene"

all the modding contest does is draw ppl away from actual ut mods where the competition is. If anything, its hurting the ut community as a whole. Having money tournaments on the other hand would give money straight to the players that have been playing epic games since u1/ut99.

"instagib should not be removed"

The only reason why newbies play instagib instead of reg weapon mods is that it has relatively no learning curve making it forgiving right away. Many of the top insta players have switched over to reg weapons simply because it is more fun once you overcome the learning curve. Having the ig mod removed right away would force players to join reg weapons servers and they would enjoy the game more in the long wrong not to mention bring more talent into the competitive community.

"if you want to frag play dm, ons isnt"

My ideas about revamping ons are right on and many people would agree. Cutting down on vehicle combat and having a less repetitve element of game play instead of linking nodes would help benefit the mod ten fold.

[legacy-broez]

i think they should make it instagib only.. ;)

also it's nice to see they waste their time on something so important as voice controlled bots!

[legacy-Bishop_Gantry]

Are Epic planning on making an actual Dropship for Envy, more specificlly this Dropship?...


[image=http://home.aland.net/ma20978/Shot00033.jpg]

[legacy-Grimlock]

"Having money tournaments on the other hand would give money straight to the players that have been playing epic games since u1/ut99."


What? Are you mental? There is no point in this.

WOW! Some guy made a one of purchase of a game and you expect Epic to PAY them back for wasting all their social time playing their game?

Thats a lose lose situation. I hope you never get into business.

[legacy-Wretch]

Uh huh

I just hope they bring the Ripper back. It's not on the current weapons list but one can always dream...

[legacy-VickissV3]

^^
agreed , its awesome in UC2, so I would love to see it back in the tournament series

[legacy-7eVeN]

cant wait for it,

Hi btw, im from the INA/ATARI forums, will be closed tomorrow i just heard me + probably other hundreds of people will sign up, so better prepare :D

[legacy-Volt]

all the modding contest does is draw ppl away from actual ut mods where the competition is. If anything, its hurting the ut community as a whole. Having money tournaments on the other hand would give money straight to the players that have been playing epic games since u1/ut99.

Huh? Actual UT mods...? What do you mean?
And, what's the point of getting money for playing a game? Playing the game won't get them anywhere in life (unless they get REALLY lucky). If they win the modding competition, they'll not only get the money, but the license for UE and recognition by other devs. I really don't understand how it's hurting the community...

[legacy-fts]

"Huh? Actual UT mods...? What do you mean?"
I'm talking about the gametypes that come stock with ut duh; and having a ut tourney with money involved would not be a bad idea. Its not like everyone involved will play the game constantly in preparation for it... most people would go there to have a good time, the money is just another assentive. Haven't you guys heard of QUAKECON? and Like it or not, the modding contest was a failure. Epic originally created it in hopes of having a mod of counter-strike quality being created. But in turn, only buggy/poorly made mods were made with only 30-50 people playing them at a time.

this thread is getting off topic. add some suggestions ppl

[legacy-VickissV3]

Like it or not, the modding contest was a failure
^^
some of the modes were very good and fun to play , ever play Red Orchestra? Its very well done

[legacy-fts]

"ever play Red Orchestra? Its very well done"
we all have our opinions, i personally thought it was horrible.

btw the point of the thread wasn't to argue with my suggestions but to add your own.

[legacy-KaNdeeKiD]

Looks no 1 has anything to add, just disagree with your-own. They see the game(s) fine the way they are, and have no complaints, or little. Sure everyone wants a game their own way, but myeh tough luck.

~KaNdeeKiD~

[legacy-Bishop_Gantry]

The new Scorpion looks really awful...

Why do they have to change it so drasticlly it looks like a rotten eggshell now...

[UnrealGrrl]

almost everything i've read about the early development (well early news to us fans) sounds really great!

from the quotes and comments in the article, it sounds like Epic is trying to find a balance between old school original UT feel/gameplay and many of the enhancements that have been added since then in the UT200x series...

my feeling is that most importantly, if they can find a balance where maps and movement are more original UT style, (making maps equally fun to play if they are huge wide open ctf affairs or cramped corridors for nasty DM, while competitive at the same time) and keeping some of the improved weapon balance and advances from ut2kx, i think old and new school players will be happy.


i'm mostly happy to see the return of less gametypes... Epic tried, but it only served to confuse and divide the community. DM/TDM, CTF, ONS and CONQ sounds good to me!

im really looking forward to following the development of the new UT!!! :)

p.s. (edit) while i agree with much of the OP if theres one thing thats way off its that ppl think Epic doesnt care about the unreal community or fans? i dont know one developer that shows the kind of support that Epic does to the community at large. no one responds more directly, more often, provides more info or more support to players and modders than Epic.

[legacy-Dante]

I like what ive seen of envy so far (that new scorpion is a thing of beauty!And the goliath no longer looks like a relic from 1942)

-The sniper is staying,which is good as one of the trademarks of unreal,for me at least,was a mix of futuristic laser guns and old makeshift weapons like the stinger.However id like to see an XMP style zoom where its toggled,and while its toggled you can switch weapons (maybe an option for the old style zoom of the other games?)Also the team coloured beam of xmp's sniper was a nice touch

-All 9 of the ut2004ECE vehicles are returning,and you've already helped make the scorpion useful,but the SPMA and hellbender are 2 vehicles that need a change.The SPMA's second seat is useless for a 2nd person,as it is just a camper vehicle.The hellbender is the most misused vehicles in the game,being used as a sniper rifle instead of a team based vehicle,i think the rear turret is the primary cause of this,as for most ppl its nearly impossible to use when in motion.

-Adrenaline needs to be dropped or seriously reworked.

-We need to stop porting the old maps to the new game,focus on making NEW classics,instead of adjusting old ones to fit the new mechanics.

[legacy-fts]

"We need to stop porting the old maps to the new game,focus on making NEW classics,instead of adjusting old ones to fit the new mechanics."
i concur

[legacy-Dante]

Oh and the music needs to be better too,no more of this light background music like in phobos2 or inferno,it needs to be proper blood thumping music like serenity corrugation or atlantis

[legacy-Bishop_Gantry]

And im gonna counter with we still havent got a decent sequel for Unreal1 yet, without it you wouldnt have ever even played your precious UT...

And gradually Epic have been dissecting the Unreal franchise, removing loved features, thats thinking of the community alright removing the things the fans likes the most...

[legacy-VickissV3]

i really hope that there aren't light , medium and heavy characters. Its kool having a level playing field where it is all about being skillful rather than using a specific character based on its their stats

[legacy-Bishop_Gantry]

race diversity could prove an intresting concept, anyway thats what mutators are for if people want to disable it, it should be possible...

[legacy-fts]

"race diversity could prove an intresting concept, anyway thats what mutators are for if people want to disable it, it should be possible..."

if you're referring to the different "classes" in the conquest mod then it will be a good thing as they were in u2xmp. The conquest mod seems to be slower paced than the rest so having different classes will add another element of strategy to the game. As far as "race diversity" applied in tdm/ctf, that would be a horrible idea.

[legacy-fts]

-please don't continue with the gay 200* name extension. Maybe name it unreal tournament 3 so it coincides with the engine name.

UT1 = UT
UT2 = UT2003
UT2.5 = UT2004
UT3 = Envy

[legacy-VickissV3]

yeah UT3 would sound the best with maybe Envy as a subtitle

[legacy-Bishop_Gantry]

Thats the beaty about it race traits could be enabled in Conquest and Ons where their effect wouldnt be overdramatic but could be disabled for vanilla CTF/DM/CTF modes and for those that feelt exotic could enable it for their servers if they wish for it...

[legacy-Thanatos]

I think Epic could just keep it at Unreal Tournament 3. Voilà, plain and simple, no subtitles to insinuate anything and directly to the point.

I don't mind any race traits... Except that I feel a bit 'limited' in choosing my character, as this might create a "Hmm, this is a REALLY cool looking guy but his traits really aren't my thing" effect.

[legacy-Retodon8]

I personally really don't like adding numbers to a name for a sequel.
If you do that, you need to at least think of a good subtitle.
I mean, how hard is it to be creative so your customers don't have to play Shooter, than Shooter again, then Shooter once more, etc., only with a silly number added.
In that regard I prefer the year addition, since it at least gives a little bit information.

Anyway, I understand it's probably still a good idea to keep (part of the) name for sequels, since most people would otherwise be ignorant something would be a sequel to a game they loved, and perhaps not buy it, but at least add a subtitle then!
That's my two pence worth.

[legacy--pure-Destruction]

Theyre going to have to compete with Quake4. That will be a hard feat to accomplish on its own. I do agree that ONS isnt something to be so focused on anymore because it never really appealed to the real competative scene from UT1 and Unreal. Epic hyped it up to be some big bad combat like some kinda bf1942 with vehicles. But vehicles in the Unreal universe was just a crappy idea in my oppinion. Unreal is about Deathmatch, TeamDeathMatch and CTF. Thats where your general audience is. Thats where the competative players are who buy these games and support Epic. And they are the ones who made this game to be what it is today. New kids are going to buy the game regardless. UT1 didnt have onslaught and look at how many people bought it. A sequel to Unreal Tournament is what we need. No more of this junk 2k* stuff. Epic needs some advice from true Unreal 1 and UT1 tdm and ctf players sitting with them while they make the next game giving them tips and on hand feedback. I agree that people need to move on and there will never be another UT1 experience. But future games dont have to be like 2k3 and 2k4 to please everyone.

[legacy-Kronon]

I dont like Ons or vehicles myself (TDM and 1-on-1 is what I like), but Epic would do a big mistake if they didnt put a lot of effort into Ons-alike gametypes.

New players like this sort of gametypes. And eventually, some of them will start with the hardcore gametypes like TDM or CTF, but very few new players will jump right into those gametypes (they are to hard with to many skilled players in them).

Its also a question of feeling useful. A new player in a TDM game is bad for the team he plays in, while the same new player in an Ons game will at least be a little useful.

[legacy-Bishop_Gantry]

Competitive players is a small minority with a self destructive culture detering newer players from continuing playing...

And aswell competitive play forces people to have high end systems to be able to compete, not something anyone can afford to buy a new monster rig whenever a game is released...

What imo Unreal needs is a decent singleplayer campaign alongside a great multiplayer game in the same package...

[legacy-Thanatos]

I never liked competitive gaming.

Actually I don't like competition in general.

I mean, you play to have FUN. In competition you play to win. That only brings stress about, IMO. How can you have fun when you're under the pressure of HAVING to win (if you don't want to get bashed towards near-death by your teammates)?

[legacy-Retodon8]

"Unreal is about Deathmatch, TeamDeathMatch and CTF. Thats where your general audience is."

I'm not sure you are correct in that assumption.
Can you back it up with statistics?
I can't seem to reach http://ut2004stats.epicgames.com/ from the computer I'm at now, and I think that would be the most trustworthy place to look it up.
It's at least possible to look up the total amount of matches for all gametypes if I'm not mistaken.

"Thats where the competative players are who buy these games and support Epic. And they are the ones who made this game to be what it is today."

That simply isn't true.
Like Bishop_Gantry said, the "competitive players" are a tiny part of all the people playing the game.
Don't forget all the people that play the game offline, meaning the actual percentage is even smaller.
Also the fact that competitive players are generally louder than the other people that play online makes it easy to get a somewhat skewed view on the actual situation.
The majority of people plays for fun as well as for competition.

"New kids are going to buy the game regardless. UT1 didnt have onslaught and look at how many people bought it. A sequel to Unreal Tournament is what we need. No more of this junk 2k* stuff. Epic needs some advice from true Unreal 1 and UT1 tdm and ctf players sitting with them while they make the next game giving them tips and on hand feedback."

Epic needs advice from "true players"?
Epic doesn't need to do anything.
If they are smart, they'll listen to all their customers, and try to make them all happy.
Of course it's not possible to make every single one completely happy, so they'll have to cater for the majority.
After all, that's the way to earn the most money, and without money no more games.
I'm not sure how much money those LAN-parties for professionals create, but even then, selling the game is the most important thing.

"And aswell competitive play forces people to have high end systems to be able to compete, not something anyone can afford to buy a new monster rig whenever a game is released..."

I'm not sure of that either.
From what I understand competitive players like to turn of as much detail as they can, so their opponents are less obstructed by lens flares, better to see after installing brightskins too, and so their game runs at a higher FPS count.
I think your average players that likes the game to look good has more need for a nice system than a competitive one in that aspect.
That makes me wonder... what would a game be like if it was designed by competitive players from the ground up?

[legacy-Bishop_Gantry]

1. According to those stats DM and Ons dominates completly all the other game modes pales in comparison DM have a slight lead over Ons...

2. Competitive players needs every edge they can get for they simply strive to become the best, something like 5 fps can mean the diffrence between win and loss for them...

the faster rig they have the faster they can react even if they run at lowest detail the guy with 3ghz rig will have a better advantage than a guy with a 1 ghz rig it isnt about detail for competitive players its about being able to react miliseconds before the enemy has time to react...

3. if competitive players made a game it would probably look alot like Tribes actually they released a new game not so long ago Tribes3 Vengance i belive...

[legacy-fts]

"I mean, you play to have FUN. In competition you play to win."

i think you're missing the point, people who play competitvely usually have more fun with the game than casual players. Its similar to organized sports, i guess its not for everyone though.

[legacy-Bishop_Gantry]

Somethings I find really disturbing though...

"The Scorpion buggy now comes with an XMP-style rocket booster, as well as an 'eject' button which turns it into a self-destructing bomb."
----
Excuse me you said the Scorpion, right?...
----
"geo sword" maneuver, first employed during the closing stages of the Human/Skaarj wars. A Manta (hover vehicle) was covered in 16 adhesive grenades by 2 members of a small human scout/infiltration force during an assault on dug-in Skaarj forces. A third member of the squad volunteered to ride the Manta into the Skaarj enclave, ejecting a short distance from the enemy's perimeter. Inertia kept the Manta moving toward the enemy, and once in range, the grenadiers activated their weapons, resulting in a huge explosion, taking out 2 enemy gun emplacements and many Skaarj warriors.
---
Why give the Scorpion the purpouse the Manta already have in the fluff?...
----

Removal of the Assault rifles since they arent mentioned anywhere...

Ok firstly WHY remove them! the assault rifle has been in several games in diffrent incarnations...
Unreal: "Return to Na pali" CAR (Combat Assault Rifle)
Unreal2K3 AR770
Unreal2K4 AR770
Unreal2/XMP M32 Duster CAR (Combat Assault Rifle)

Its widely used in the fluff removing them dosent make any sense, considering ENVY seems to focus more on the background of Unreal dwelling deeper than the other UT games have done previosly...
-----
Dual Enforcers Ok going by that and UC2, you start out with both or pick up both whenever you get em, hunting down that extra Enforcer is one of the great charms about the weapon, able to use one or use two is what made it unique, I do hope they make them as they should be 20 round reloadable with 5 shot warnings like the original had the "AutoMag"

Never really been fond of the Enforcer name on the pistols, sounds just like a buzz word to get kids to spill their beans with "OMGZor"

[legacy-kaTaToNiC]

I have seen in an article, that in "envy" the movement will be cut down. Reason is, that ppl cannot hit a dodgy, jumping enemy that good.

Honestly, this is the biggest reason, why I play Unreal, and not Call of duty or CounterStrike.

Its the movement !

Bad enough, they removed the boost dodge. If they now cut down the movement, I think we only have a boring Unreal 2 multiplayer with better grafics left over.

No thanks...

[legacy-Retodon8]

"Bad enough, they removed the boost dodge."

Actually a more correct phrase would be: They fixed a bug.

Personally I didn't like the sound of the announcement about reduced mobility either, but on the other hand after having played the UC2 demo I realise that kind of thing really wouldn't work well in something like Onslaught.
We'll just have to wait and see if Epic is making the right choice by removing the dodge as it is now.

[legacy-nELsOn]

@katatonic: now where did you read that epic removed the boost dodge (i assume you mean dodging and then do an additional jump?)??
they won't even remove the double jump according to BU.
but if you have a link or something where i can read this statement then i'd be happy ;)

[legacy-kaTaToNiC]

@nelson

what you refer to is a double jump, this is not what I meant.

In UT2003, it was possible to boost-dodge, which was (as mentioned before) more a bug. Epic did't patch it in UT2003, but it was removed in UT2004, because only experienced players mastered this move and on the other hand, ppl could move very fast, which was partly destroying the map flow.

On the other hand, it was big fun and for my playing, a must for my movement.

Its hard to explain, how this move was working, but I am really sad if Epic is changing the movement in the other direction.

UT will be more n00b-friendly, but much less unique.
Bad for competitive gaming !

[legacy-Retodon8]

"what you refer to is a double jump, this is not what I meant."

To add to the confusion, that's not right either.
It's commonly called a Dodge Jump... a Dodge followed by a Jump... makes sense. :)
A Double Jump is a Jump followed by a Jump.

Anyway, the Boost Dodge was an exploited bug in UT2003.
It was discovered relatively late in UT2003's life, or at least it only became well-known then.
Basically it's a screwed up Wall Dodge.
A regular Dodge is a movement key pressed twice, for instance Forward, Forward, or Right, Right, resulting in something similar to a jump, but with less hight and more distance.
A Wall Dodge is pretty much the same, only you use the wall as a launch platform instead of the floor.
So, be in the air (either after a fall or a jump), and press away from the wall twice.

If inbetween those 2 keys you made a Jump, you'd get an unsightly "boost" and fly across the room.
It basically screwed up the game.
I suppose if in a match everybody knew the move, it'd be fair, but it still changed the pace a lot.

On a personal note, I just couldn't manage the stupid thing for ages, no matter how hard or how often I tried, until I bought a new keyboard. :)
These keys don't need to be pressed that hard, do less of a click, making it possible to be quick enough with them.
Once I had this board, I managed to do a Boost Dodge every single time, and realised it wasn't really all that leet anyway, and soon after they removed it with UT2004.
I didn't mind.

As for the source of the quote, go here:
http://www.beyondunreal.com/daedalus/archive.php?month=March%2C+2005
There is (at least 1) a page on http://www.photobucket.com/ or something similar with scans from CGW with the actual quote, but I can't seem to find it anymore, sorry.

[legacy-nELsOn]

""what you refer to is a double jump, this is not what I meant."

To add to the confusion, that's not right either.
It's commonly called a Dodge Jump... a Dodge followed by a Jump... makes sense."

this is in ut2k4... i'm using this dodgejump all the time because it makes movement a lot faster.

but i don't know that other thing: dodge with jump in between two keys.

so the latter would be what was left out in ut2k4???

[legacy-Retodon8]

Yes, that's it.
Did you ever do a normal Wall Dodge?
Just be right next to a wall, try jumping towards it, and then as you touch it quickly press away from the wall twice.
Let's say you jump right at the wall face first, you need to press Back, Back and you'll Wall Dodge backwards.
Normally though you'll have the wall on your right (or left) side, so you'll do a Left, Left to Wall Dodge to your left.
If you keep pressing forward while flying across the wall, you'll get a nice bit of distance.

Now simply add a Jump in the middle of the Wall Dodge.
So: Left, Jump, Left.
Also do it really quickly, because if you move away from the wall too much, or if you take too long, it won't work.
You can change the DoubleClickTime or something similar it's called to a higher value to get you more time inbetween the first Left and the second, helping you with the latter problem.
(It's 0.25 s by default if I remember correctly.)
If you did it right, you'll fly across the map.
Try it in DM-Asbestos in the little water-filled hole below the Double Damage.
You should be able to Boost Dodge over those fence things without using the ramps.
It doesn't work in UT2004, so don't bother if you don't have UT2003.

Anyway, this is getting way too much off-topic, so this is my last post about it. :)

[legacy-Olav]

I'm really looking forward to the 'demo' where Epic will ask us about feedback for things that can could be improved. Then I'm gonna use my world class troll skills against every whiner.

[legacy-Retodon8]

"but if you have a link or something where i can read this statement then i'd be happy"

I just found the link I was talking about, the one with the magazine scans:
http://members.optusnet.com.au/findex/gallery.htm

Edit: Well colour me stupid.
This particular page does NOT have the articles with the discussed quote, so it isn't of any help either... :(

[legacy-fts]

-although i've been playing ut2k3/4 the past couple years, i'm still in favor of epic taking out ALL ut2k* movement. Thus including wall jumps, double jumps, dodge jumps, all the bounciness.

-I will reemphasize this again, if onslaught is going to be included at least revamp it to get rid of the repetitive and newb friendly elements of gameplay. The linking of nodes system needs to be redone from the ground up, it got extrememly boring after the demo. More fragging less vehicles! =D

also asking community feedback on http://prounreal.com will give you a competitive outlook on which changes need to be made.

[legacy-Wretch]

What we need in Onslaught are maps similar to the tight quarters of the Assault battlefields.

Or just make the environments smaller, it just gets really boring to trek across gaps of open landscape.

[legacy-fts]

Here's an informative opinion i found off of proU.

--------------------------------------------------
"It appears that epic might finally be coming to terms with the nuances that seperate a great FPS from a mediocre one (ie. UT99 vs. 2k4).

I really hope they go back to the Technology-driven environments from 99... the egyptian crap is so stale. I mean, every level with those texture/mesh sets feels completely dead. I'd much rather play on a space station hurtling through space than some abandoned ruins... it feels so much more intense. Hopefully epic will realize that.

I'm glad to hear they're toning down the movements. The game definitely feels more intense when you're not an invincible acrobat who can dodge almost anything from a distance.

There's always the chance, no matter HOW minute, that they'll bring back the old glory of the translocator. The reason it worked so well was already outlined a long time ago (and basically ignored) during the development of 2k4, but basically, while the xloc in 2k* is essentially always available, the one in UT was basically a trade-off for movement because of switch times and its limited range.

To put it better, UT2k*'s xloc feels like just movement ability, wheras in UT99, it was a movement weapon. The shorter, faster xlocs from UT99 had a much more break-neck feeling than the long-distance, slow xlocs in UT2k4. It was more of a xlocing frenzy, which was alot more fun. At the same time, it was easier to keep track of someone using the xLoc in UT99 and cut them off, whereas in UT2k* it can be harder to trace their movement because of the additional distance. However, because there is more time in between translocations in ut2k4, xlocers are obviously more vulnerable if an opponent manages to lock on to them when they materialize....

I could go on, because there are alot of factors in this, but it basically boils down to the fact that in UT99, mid-map battle was highly prevalent on small maps while large maps revolved more around the flag-bases and the flag carriers, while in UT2k4 the opposite is true: large maps allow for more mid-map attacking via the LG, while mid-map attacks can be very difficult on a smaller map where the enemy offense isn't in the center areas long enough to be tracked. Actually, small maps just sucked in 2k*.

Basically, by making their slight changes to the Xloc to prevent "abuse", they unintentionally changed the entire chemistry of the xloc with the game, and it was alot more fun the old way.

Moving on: The character animations should also be improved. I mean, the constant backflips are cool, but all of the actual running animations seem... slinky. I don't know, everyone just kind of strafes around, constantly looking down their sights... its too uptight. In UT99, characters would have a strong backpedal, leaning back as they one-handed their shock rifle... You weren't just deadly, you were laid-back too. It was bad-ass. The character models were also much, much clearer against their backgrounds, allowing you to more clearly focus on the enemies. And lets not forget, UT99 models fit more appropriately (size-wize) into the environments. Half of the maps in 2k4 feel like hall-of-giants, mostly because the environments have to be so expansive to accomidate Dodge-jumping.

The music could also be upgraded.

Basically, atmospheric intensity is THE key to the appeal of the game... At least, it is in a world which gives you so many FPSes to chose from. I just hope epic realizes this and uses it."

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

WTF is this s***. UT2004 is great, the dodging make it much more intense, a very atractive game. who made all this crap comments?

if who made this does'nt like all that, why he dont leave and go play Counter Strike? omfg...

[legacy-Thanatos]

I don't give squat about level themes, really. If I launch the 1354647th Egyptian of industrial themed map, I don't care if I've played that kind of maps a quadrillion amount of times. If they are fun, then I'll keep coming back. And if the author gives an orginal twist to the theme (the weird "streams" in the ceiling cracks of DM-DE-Osiris 2 for instance), then I'm more than happy.

As for the music: what that guy said is pure bull****, I think. I listened to Kevin Riepl's UC2 music he posted on his site a while ago, and God, with every game Epic releases the quality of his work increases significantly.

[legacy-Kronon]

I agree with the guy who wrote that stuff in fts posts. UT99 was a better game in many ways compared to UT2003/UT2004.

/Kronon

[legacy-nELsOn]

my opinion:

-> cut down bouncyness (but don't take away everything, just reduce it to a less matrix like level)
-> keep the game's pace (i like FAST games)
-> make cool maps (atmospheric, 'living' maps that are visually pleasing and challenging in gameplay, no matter what theme as long as the map rocks)
-> don't take away the skaarj!
-> don't scare n00bs away with too many options but at the same time leave options to pros (yeah, that's gonna be hard i guess)
-> leave out gametypes that are more like mutators (like mutant or invasion)
-> keep adrenaline moves (they can be a cool weapon if used by an experienced player)

i think at least some of these points will make gameplay more like the original UT but at the same time keep the UT2k4 feeling...

[legacy--pure-Destruction]

-Id rather have the original sniper rifle back or at least its firing rate and recoil time.
-And the stinger sounds nice.
-Do away with the weak ass plasma and make it like UT1
-Bring back the enforcer
-Make the flack fire rate like Unreal1
-Shock like UT1
-Bring back an actual shield "belt" not some vicks losenge shaped thing. And also make the players have an ora around them while shielded, same with the amp glow.
-Adrenaline was a bad idea to begin with. In tdm it made it that much more annoying cause I would accidentally use a combo that i DID NOT WANT to use at the time. So it was wasted. Plus it makes the playing field that much more unbalanced cause the good players are constantly whoring power ups plus boosting from getting so many kills by being stacked. Its just unfair. Also in CTF the speed adren caused controversy from the beginning so they had to cheese it to make them happy.
-Bring back the Galaxy Audio Subsystem cause the sound in 2k3/2k4 has been bad from the start.
-Have Dr Sin formulate an anti cheat solution to his best capabilities so we dont end up with another 20 versions of some anti cheat program. ala antitcc.


Alot of ideas people have posted here sounds ok.

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

theres always ways to cheat.
the UT2004 is fine, i dont want any changes but addons, new addons, new things are always welcome but not leave the others out unless they are a sh**.

dude, we want EVOLUTION, we wont want to go back the same UT99 style, if the new UT has that style i wont buy it because i already have UT99, so go play UT99 if you think UT2K4 its not cool.

with that opinion the game will very really slow and boring.

''Adrenaline was a bad idea to begin with. In tdm it made it that much more annoying cause I would accidentally use a combo that i DID NOT WANT to use at the time. So it was wasted. Plus it makes the playing field that much more unbalanced cause the good players are constantly whoring power ups plus boosting from getting so many kills by being stacked. Its just unfair. Also in CTF the speed adren caused controversy from the beginning so they had to cheese it to make them happy. ''

blablalblalba thats just arrogant.
no offense but, pal, you sound like a n00b.

and yes, you are the pure destruction, but the pure destruction to a game thats great as it is.

''I agree with the guy who wrote that stuff in fts posts. UT99 was a better game in many ways compared to UT2003/UT2004''

blablalblablabla, another one. if you dont like the EVOLUTION, go play UT99.

fts, another one who thinks all the old stuff have to be in next tournaments, dude the tournament was getting bored, we need new types, new things.

[legacy-VickissV3]

well most people want a ut99 with amaziing graphics, ( which would still be kool), and thats why some people were disappointed by the 2k series, even it was more balanced/ has more options/ and is overall better than the original.
people need to realize its a game SEQUEL not an improvement.Its supposed to have totally new game mechanics, yet still retain its core play. So I don't mind any major game changes , because:

1 i trust epic's judgement
2 I have played ut/ut2k4 to death and am looking for something new

[legacy--pure-Destruction]

Dominator. Ive been playing Unreal engine games since the UT99 demo. Sorry I missed out on Unreal1. But before that I played Doom1 and Wolfenstein religiously. SO im no "newb" to fps gaming. I think you just like to jump in peoples faces just to get your post count up. But I dont hold it against you being newb yourself, or you would know who I am, my clans success in UT1 and how great UT1 was...

Considering, I dont think 2k3 and 2k4 were a total catastrophe. Its a very pretty game, has great physics and has surpassed almost every fps to date on those terms. But where they lacked was trying to implement too many constants into one game which in turn totally ruined TDM and or CTF for that matter. More so CTF. And I dont play CTF. They should have made an Unreal Tournament sequel, and had games like Pariah to showcase gametypes like Onslaught and Bombing Run. Keep them separate so if people want to play vehicular games with objectives, play game A, if you want a true Unreal based TDM or CTF game, play game B.

So I vote for the Epic/Midway venture to go the route of the old Unreal Tournament cause #1. It will very likely bring back the old community that kept UT1 alive for so long. #2. People will have much more respect for Epic for actually listening to people who have a competative history and know what works who have made thier game such a success and built a foundation for future gamers to enjoy. #3. New players will buy the game regardless if its more like UT1 than 2k4 or vice versa, because its a new game and is named "Unreal" & by Epic.

The only thing that can happen is that the UT2k* fanboys like yourself will get thier panties in a wad because its not just an updated UT2004 like you want on a new engine. But some retro UT99 like pwnage on a new engine that will make you smack your mamma.

But you have to look at both points of view. All the hardcore UT99 players who loved the game immensely was confronted with 2k3 and 2k4 and they hated them with a passion. So alls fair to make a game for both audiences but take notes from UT1 because it was technically more successful than the 2k* franchise.

So troll the forums and call people newbs and try to get things your way and see who listens to your petty ramblings about peoples arrogance. You wont go far. Assuming you dont go far with your face glued to the screen as it is, quoting everyones posts. gg-

[legacy-Thanatos]

nELsOn:

"-> don't take away the skaarj!"

Epic announced there will be eight times, but until know, if I remember correctly, I've seen only six (seven if I include the players custom team) teams. Also, I've noticed that magazines not always tell the truth (e.g. I once read in a magazine that Epic was determined to deliver an UT installment each year, not necessarily with big changes like UT->UT2003/4). So there's still hope.

"-> leave out gametypes that are more like mutators (like mutant or invasion)"

Thy will be done. Epic's going trim the amount of gametypes so only the 'hardcore' gametypes remain.

-pure-Destruction:

"-Id rather have the original sniper rifle back or at least its firing rate and recoil time."

Yuck, please no! Then the campers will come back and do nothing but hiding and 'headshotting' every single player in the game. I thought this was the absolute con of the original UT.

"-Do away with the weak ass plasma and make it like UT1"

Although I don't really notice a change in terms of power in the Pulse/Link Gun between UT/UT2004, I'd like have it's graphics to be more like in UT.

"-Bring back the enforcer"

Absolutely, and that's what Epic's going to do ;).

"-Make the flack fire rate like Unreal1"

Honestly I think that would make the gameplay annoying. I think the fire rate of the Unreal 1 Flak is too slow for UT's fast paced gameplay.

"-Shock like UT1"

The Shock IS like UT1... with the only difference its graphics.

"People will have much more respect for Epic for actually listening to people who have a competative history and know what works who have made thier game such a success and built a foundation for future gamers to enjoy."

Epic DOES listen to their fans. If they didn't, they wouldn't have released the ClassicUT mutator and probably not even UT2004. It's just impossible to please everyone.

When you develop a game, you must make sure it not only holds true to its predecessors (if they were succesful), but a company also must introduce new features, gameplay elements, etc., or else the franchise will collapse. Publishers, reviewers, and many gamers such as myself wouldn't like it if they saw a new UT with EXACTLY the same gameplay but souped-up graphics (and that's what you competitive people are basically asking of Epic).

[legacy-nELsOn]

Epic DOES listen to their fans. If they didn't, they wouldn't have released the ClassicUT mutator and probably not even UT2004. It's just impossible to please everyone.

When you develop a game, you must make sure it not only holds true to its predecessors (if they were succesful), but a company also must introduce new features, gameplay elements, etc., or else the franchise will collapse. Publishers, reviewers, and many gamers such as myself wouldn't like it if they saw a new UT with EXACTLY the same gameplay but souped-up graphics (and that's what you competitive people are basically asking of Epic).

why do you always find words to express what i'm thinking better than i can?!
anyway, i too trust EPIC's judgment and thus i'm quite sure the next UT will rock!
i'm not looking for something new cause i don't think ut2k4 is getting old but nevertheless i'm really loooking forward to ENVY!

[legacy-Bishop_Gantry]

Would be easier to belive you Nelson and Epic, if it werent for the simple fact they have removed much loved features from previous Unreal games rather brutally...

[legacy-fts]

lol why are ppl mad about the skaarj being taken out? The skaarj bonus pack skin was horrible in ut1 and no one used it in ut2k4. Lets debate actual important issues please

[legacy-Xipher]

I did use the Skaarj models for quite some time, recently I have started using the Xan one, but the Skaarj are still cool looking. Im not worried about their exclusion though, Ill wait till we get closer to release before critizing Epics choices.

[legacy-Thanatos]

I must admit that I was slightly disappointed the way they looked in UT2004. Most of them didn't look as menacing as I hoped, and I thought the modeling job on the legs and feet was pretty bad (mainly due to poly-count restrictions).

[legacy-Bishop_Gantry]

fts just because you dont think the Skaarj is important dosent mean others thinks its important to them...

also somethign I noticed about the utk4 Skaarj was the spartanic use of animations, they barely move or sway or look around in a very rigid fashion...

The Skaarj was rather poorly implemented into ut2k4, no Skaarj weapon was added, they dont move like Skaarj and they got 1 dinky veichle on one of the most boring assault maps ever made Mothership...

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

the Skaarj are the GREATEST empire in Unreal. their tech is supperior to all other races, 10 times superior the human tech. theres only one race which has more tech than the Skaarj, only seen a few of them in Unreal 1.... Mercs, the mercenaries must be in Envy !!!

and pure destruction, i dont jump on the face of the people for get posts, posts doesnt exist to me, i only give answers which are usefull, and i never make threads. if i wanted to get more posts i will make a thread spree, i only made 2 threads, and they are usefull, i only make threads if they are usefull.
so shut up.

you missed unreal 1?!?! omg... you missed the greatest one, seriously buy it.

[legacy-Thanatos]

Bishop Gantry

"also somethign I noticed about the utk4 Skaarj was the spartanic use of animations, they barely move or sway or look around in a very rigid fashion..."

Agreed. The skaarj moved VERY stiff in UT2004 compared to Unreal 1. I expected them to do some crazy side-flips when performing dodge moves like they did in Unreal 1, but no, they just moved their legs a tiny bit. Quite disappointing.

All in all, I think their implementation in UT2004 felt rushed (same goes for the female robots when it comes to voices).

"...they got 1 dinky veichle on one of the most boring assault maps ever made Mothership..."

I think Mothership was among the best Assault maps out there.

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

and the Black Scorpions are a special tech of the Iron Skull clan. Every Skaarj clan got their own especiall vehicles or weapon/weapons that makes them unique, this doesnt happend in all independant Skaarj clans, but a few of them do, the most are normal clans. The Empire, in other hand, has every tech developed in affiliated and non-affiliated powerfull clans and their own things that the clans cant have, and thats a lot.

(this is not official, but if you play every game and deeper, youll notice that)

[legacy-Retodon8]

"and the Black Scorpions are a special tech of the Iron Skull clan."

Where do you get that information?
I really think you're just making parts up as you go along. :)
That's OK, it's fun to think about the backgrounds of the whole Unreal story, but you state it as the ultimate truth, so I can't but wonder about where you read what you read.
The official site mentions it's the Iron Skull clan that attacked Earth, but that doesn't mean other clans didn't/don't have Black Scorpions.

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

no, i dont make things up. NEVER! i hate that.

the black scorpions only showed that time, in the final battle beetwen humans and skaarj, so you can supposse they are the only clan.

[legacy-Retodon8]

Well, I personally need a little bit more proof than that.
With the Unreal games we get a very limited view of the entire story, since the gameplay is more important, so for all we know the BSs could be all the Skaarj clans' main fighters for 100s of years.
Then again they could've been specifically designed for the mothership that was to attack Earth by the IS clan, after which they decided to design new ones, since they didn't like the outcome.

(Edited to fix a really annoying typo.)

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

ok retodon, yes, we need that, more story for know everything about Unreal, but we must wait till next games come out :)

[legacy-Salwander]

Although I have owned and played other UT versions, UT GOTY, which I often refer to as UT Classic, is still my favorite. In fact, there are others who join me in Deathmatch on the server 'Roboman'. Though the graphics portion of the game engine has been advanced since UT Classic was released, there is a special experience on so many of the original maps that yet to be replicated effectively. Quite frankly, I have all but given up hope with Epic, in providing the same experience. Well, at least, up to now, as I have started to read the Epic boards (mayber there is yet hope). So I plead with those that have the appropriate authority to make it a goal in the next gen UT, to provide many of the same maps, weapons, and style of play (DEATHMATCH mode), at least AS AN OPTION (perhaps seperate disk to load as an add-on). Oh, and another thing...enough with the floating capsules already!! Dispense with those kiddy features and bring back the jumping boots. So please design the game for adults too.

[legacy-fts]

"fts just because you dont think the Skaarj is important dosent mean others thinks its important to them..."

this is a ut game, not an unreal game; there is no need to have the skaarj added. ut99 had no skaarj out of the box until a bonus pack came out alot later. It just doesn't fit the the overall style of the game.

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

excuse me, they do, they are the symbol of Unreal.

[legacy-Xipher]

If Epic says their wont be any Skaarj, then I don't see a point in arguing, as Im sure they made the choice for a reason.

[legacy-Bishop_Gantry]

Your quite right Xipher Epic choose to not include Skaarj just like they choose to remove singleplayer from UT, Enforcers, sniper rifle, body armor from ut2k3, just like they choose to remove features and creatures many appreciate many times over...

For what? Necris goth wannabies shambling zombies and one of the most boring enemies from Unreal1 legless Krall's...

Epic listens to their fans "bah", Ill belive it when I see it...

[legacy-Retodon8]

I'm hoping for the Skaarj to make an appearance as a regular enemy again, something like Invasion, or UC2's Nali Slaughter, only with less passiveness on the other site.

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

Epic didnt mentioned all the teams, theres a hope.

[legacy-fts]

get out of my thread newbies

[legacy-VickissV3]

hey let epic do what they want with their game ,in these type of games some things have to go ( characters, traditional maps, weapons etc) the game can't always stay the same.

things just need to be taken out , added or changed , regarless of what fans want.

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

''get out of my thread newbies''

ive seen one newbie, only, and thats you fts, so go out the thread.
doesnt matter if you made the thread go out you mentioned newbies no?

[legacy-nELsOn]

VickissV3: "hey let epic do what they want with their game ,in these type of games some things have to go ( characters, traditional maps, weapons etc) the game can't always stay the same.

things just need to be taken out , added or changed , regarless of what fans want."

yup - the game can't stay the same. otherwise it would simply grow boring. sure, you can't satisyfy EVERYBODY when adding innovations but you mustn't try to only please pro's.
you will want NEW fans of the franchise to keep it alive and make it grow. if you didn't get any new fans the game would die sooner or later and i don't think that's what any fan wants...

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

but the Skaarj are the greatest thing hapened to Unreal!

[legacy-Kronon]

I can't believe people are debating Epics choise of skins? Could there be a less important matter to debate?

Hey, lets discuss the color of the enforcers. Maybe they will be green, or maybe gray? I like green, and I would never ever buy the game of they made them gray!!! Please Epic, listen to the fans, make them green!

/Kronon

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

they arent skins they are models, i think i will be a Juggernaut this time in Envy... if theres no Skaarj...

[legacy-Bishop_Gantry]

Theres no point in calling something Enforcers if they arent Enforcers...

Would you call a rocket launcher with hitscan rockets still a rocket launcher?

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

i dont get the point of yah post.

''fts just because you dont think the Skaarj is important dosent mean others thinks its important to them...''

exactly, i must agree with you, you are very right here.

[legacy-fts]

kronon is the only person in this thread that knows what hes talking about (besides me)

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

OH! the great fts is here again. i know he agrees with you but that doesnt mean anything just because he agrees with you the other ppl doesnt know about what they are talking about. Everybody has their own opinions and you msut respect them.

[legacy-Retodon8]

Just like DoM said, the simple fact that Kronon agrees with you doesn't mean he is right. :)

Also as also already stated, he isn't, since they aren just differently coloured skins, they are different characters, meaning models, skins, voices, and apparently different statistics as well, since that's what people expect from games these days.
In other words, yes, there are a LOT of less important things to discuss.

And one final time for now I'll be with DoM in wondering what the point of the post about non-Enforcers Enforcers is.
A RL with hitscan rockets wouldn't be a rocket launcher, since that's simply not possible.
However if it'd have tracking rockets, or if it shot 30 rockets at once, or something else, I'd still call it a RL.
Again, I don't get your meaning, so...?

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

yeah, please pal, clarification about this. thx retodon someone who thinks we all must respect each other...

[legacy-fts]

dom if u took the time to read my first post i said "players with competitive knowledge post only thx" which isn't you. you have turned a great suggestion thread into a skaarj/skin newb fest that has nothing to do with gameplay. bow down, you are one fish in my pond.

[legacy-Thanatos]

"-Instead of spending thousands of dollars on a MOD contest, why not use the money towards hosting a competitive yearly ut tournament similar to quakecon. people are currently under the impression that epic doesn't care about their fans; i believe a "unrealcon" was being formed at the beginning of ut2k4 but was shutdown due to lack of support from you guys. Having cash tournies would gain epic fan support and media exposure. Also exerting effort to have ut as the next cpl world tour game wouldn't hurt."

I just noticed this paragraph you wrote, fts, and as a former mod team member I feel SERIOUSLY offended and enraged by it. It is an insult to all of us mod makers (and probably for the contest organizers too). The fact that Epic organizes something like this is the ultimate proof they DO care about their fans, as they offer their fans a chance to make a big publication of their work (and believe me, making a mod requires much, MUCH harder work and effort than frantically tapping some buttons and clicking the mouse, which is what you guys basically do). On top of that, the MSU contest helped a lot of people to get a job in the gaming industry, so it actually made dreams come true for many people.

Now I ask myself: what is the gain of organizing a competition? Absolutely nothing! You guys get some fun a few days a year, maybe win some money and/or hardware (I don't know about those contest prizes and I don't care), and that's it. It will never change your lives, unlike the MSU contest which influenced and changed the lives of many people.

Last but not least, for the love of God, STOP telling who is allowed to post here and who isn't. Who the hell do you think you are?! You're not a moderator or someone who's allowed to boss anyone around, and the forums here are for everyone.

[legacy-fts]

thantanos cry me a ****ing river.. the fact still remains that all of the mods made for ut2k4 were amateur garbage, definately not worthy of any cash prizes. its pretty cute that your friendless mod buddies think they're doing something worthwhile but facts are facts, they all blow. Having a utcon on the other hand would be like a giant gathering of ut fans where you can compete in tourneys to get some cash or just chill at a byoc. quakecon has been a huge success the past few years and id pays for it out of their own pocket. TRUTH.

[legacy-wartex]

Án Unrealcon would be great and it would feed the fans with loads of fun.

Unrealcon should not only consist of tournaments, but also a chance for modmakers to show their work for Unreal fans and developers and give them an insight of what they're doing. People could take a break after a match and try out a few mods. The convention could end with an award for best mod, where all the fans and developers voted.

It'd make both competetive unreal players, fanboys and modmakers happy.

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

''the fact still remains that all of the mods made for ut2k4 were amateur garbage, definately not worthy of any cash prizes''

Ok, if you think that, why you dont make for us all a A GREAT mod...
it also was an insult for me, im making a mod of UC2 in UT2004 so i got really pissed off with that.

[legacy-nELsOn]

MSU helped people get attention and get a foot in the door of the gaming industry. where the hell should new dev's come from if not from the community?!?!

but 'unrealcon' would be nice, too.
i think wartex got it right here: don't make it gaming only but let modmakers show what they got! i think THIS might make the unreal community grow even more...

[legacy-Thanatos]

"the fact still remains that all of the mods made for ut2k4 were amateur garbage, definately not worthy of any cash prizes."

LMAO, you call Red Orchestra or Frag.Ops amateurish? Can you do it better? Then why the hell don't you make your own "perfect" version of UT?

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

yeah, thats what i said if he thinks hes so great, show us then. too much talking but nothing working.

[legacy--pure-Destruction]

i-c-u-r still wasting precious hard drive space on the server dom...
over 120 posts in a day or two. your going pro now.

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

im here every day, every hour, every second, and i registered when the forums was first time opened, and i dont only post here, i post everywhere, so think first about your post. And i dont waste space, i delete everything thats useless if i did something stupid. I careless about what you could say dude... have a reason for everything. by the way, i only made 3 threads in my history here, how i can i waste space then.... also those threads are usefull for everybody.

[legacy-Retodon8]

Uhm, it doesn't matter if a post started a thread or not, it's always a post that takes up space on the server.
I suspect thread starters are slightly bigger since they contain the data saying "this is a new thread", but that's probably negligable.
Then again every single post individually takes up a negligable amount of space as well of course.

Edit:
Well, if you already knew that, then you know your "i only made 3 threads in my history here, how i can i waste space then" isn't a valid argument. :)

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

Retodon, i already knew that...

[legacy-fts]

"LMAO, you call Red Orchestra or Frag.Ops amateurish?"

yes, they were both bad attempts of ripping off previous games (cs, CoD). There is a reason why very few people play either game online... they're really bad. and no i'm not going to try to make a mod, sorry i actually have a life (unlike dom). tootaloooooooo

time to get back on topic..

[legacy-Retodon8]

Lots of professionals rip of other professionals, or even amateurs sometimes, so what exactly is so amateur about ripping off?

Earlier you mentioned those mods are amateur garbage, but even if they are amateur, that doesn't make them garbage.
Mods are never as popular as retail games, save for some exceptions I can count on 1 hand.
Even then they are a good thing to happen to a game, so I hope we'll see mods for Envy as well.

As for getting on topic, I don't think there really is one in this thread anymore.

[legacy-fts]

Retodon if you think the mods are fun good for you. we all have our opinions and you can keep trying to force yours on me, but it won't work. i wish you would respect others views on matters instead of turning this into a flame war. maybe its time for you to become alittle more mature.

to get back on topic:
- Have a working integrated utv at release so we don't have to rely on fickle third party releases.

- Try to balance the weapons more.. in ut99 they were too powerful and in ut2k3/4 they were too weak.

[SweetTooth]

Make ONS maps a little more balanced. Subtle differences are nice but a lot of them have a lot of advantages on certain sides.

[legacy-Retodon8]

SweetTooth, the only way ONS maps would be really balanced is if they were mirrored exactly.
That simply isn't as much fun.
Besides, a bunch of patches ago Epic changed the rules a bit, optionally, so the 2 teams switch sides after one of the Cores explodes, making things perfectly fair again.
In other words, there is no need in making mirrored maps, things are more fun this way in my opinion.

"Retodon if you think the mods are fun good for you. we all have our opinions and you can keep trying to force yours on me, but it won't work. i wish you would respect others views on matters instead of turning this into a flame war. maybe its time for you to become alittle more mature."

LOL!
You actually managed to make me laugh out loud, and that doesn't happen very often.
Congratulations! :)

First of all, I never said the mods are fun for me.
I only said you were wrong in saying mods are crap.
They simply aren't, even if they aren't your cup of tea.
So, I never even voiced my opinion, meaning I can't have tried to force it upon you either.

You on the other hand, state that all mods are crap as a fact, something that's simply bad practice when you don't know know well enough what you're talking about.
Ask the fans of the mods, or even the non-fans, and I doubt many would agree with you and say there are crap.
Again, there are tons of mods, so it depends on the specific mod of course.

I respect other views, don't say I don't.

How did I turn this into a flame war?
I don't remember anyone flaming anybody else in this thread.

It is time for me to be more mature?
Well, it is time for you to stop making baseless acusations, and doing the whole pot and kettle thing.

[legacy-fts]

retodon we finally get this thread back on topic and you keep having to get the last word in. I want to have a friendly convo with unreal fans about improvements they should implement into envy; so swallow your pride, admit your faults, and get out. If you want to express your opinions about mods, start your own thread. i'll be the mature one here and end this now, i'll just ignore your immature remarks and flames from here on out.

[legacy-Retodon8]

(More LOL.)
Anyway, by special request I'll admit I screwed up an AS400 backup yesterday.

To honour your other wish and get this thread back on topic:
Does anyone else feel it sounds like Conquest will make Onslaught absolete?
The way I understand it, it's similar to Onslaught, only instead of linking power nodes you need to conquer different kinds of objectives, Assault style.
(If you ask me that could create the "perfect" game type, losing the need for the really-hard-to-balance Assault in the process.)
Also there is of course the limited resource system, making it more similar to XMP perhaps, so maybe that last part will make it complicated enough for some people to keep playing ONS instead.

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

''retodon we finally get this thread back on topic and you keep having to get the last word in. I want to have a friendly convo with unreal fans about improvements they should implement into envy; so swallow your pride, admit your faults, and get out. If you want to express your opinions about mods, start your own thread. i'll be the mature one here and end this now, i'll just ignore your immature remarks and flames from here on out.''

Look who f***** talks, the MATURE ONE, hahaah.
dude, stop, stop making me laugh!
by the way, when, tell me when, Retodon flamed you.
because i dont see where, or it was just probalby because retodon was giving hisw opinion and you do not like it. probably? maybe?
so your opinions are the correct ones and the rest are just sh*t right? dude, grow up. this is seriously.

[legacy-Thanatos]

fts, Retodon8 sure is a flame war instigator. He's downright the baddest hellraiser in this forums, if I've ever seen one. I don't even dare to say my opinion in fear that he'll come and flame me to death. Come on, man!!! For real, get serious!

Enough about that...

I was wondering if Epic couldn't make a tool for the Terrain Editor that allows the level designer to mirror the terrain? That way, you can make symmetrical terrain levels much faster and easier, plus the maps will be perfectly mirrored.

I also wonder how Conquest will compare to Onslaught.

[legacy-Bishop_Gantry]

Dominator could you lay of the offensive flamebating just a tiny bit?

[legacy-Retodon8]

Thanatos, the terrain in UT2003/4 uses a heightmap which is actually just another texture built into the map (myLevel package).
This means you can export the texture like any other, as a 256 colour greyscale image.
You can design 1/2 of the terrain in UnrealEd, export it, and mirror it in your image editing programme of choice.

On a sidenote, the terrain is made up of quads which are made up of triangles, which are aligned to make parallel running lines by default.
This might mean your mirrored terrain has a few sharp edges near slopes until you flip some individual triangles.
You can to make this [/] into this [\] for those slopes, or even for the slopes on the original side of course.
I don't know if the above make sense, or if it even will happen, but just experiment I guess. :)

You could also design your terrain in a programme like Terragen or Bryce, as long as it exports heightmaps.

From what I read a while ago the terrain creation in Unreal 3 will share a certain feature with Pariah; if you pull out some terrain into a hill, the texture will automatically change to reflect that, for instance showing rock instead of grass.
That should make things a lot easier, and I'm sure that can be overridden if the mapper wants to.
Well, I'm not even sure the feature will be in the final UnrealEd, but I'm being positive here. :)

Edit: I forgot to say "in Unreal 3" in the first sentence of the paragraph above.
Sorry about that, you're right Thanatos.

[legacy-Thanatos]

Pretty insightful, Retodon8. Those ideas haven't crossed my mind yet. I might just try that. The second idea with triangles sounds a bit clumsy, though :). As for texturing the terrain, I think the "intelligent texturing" is an Unreal Engine 3.0 feature. But personally I think it's easy enough to paint the textures on the terrain myself.

[legacy-fts]

"Look who f***** talks, the MATURE ONE, hahaah.
dude, stop, stop making me laugh!"

grow up son, don't make me bust out the pm's you sent to me. i'll give you guys a taste, "IF you ever talked this much **** in real life i would break your ****ing jaw". E THUG 4 TEH WIN

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

heh, you dont know how i am, so you are not sure if you would break my ''****ing jaw''. eat your words pal!

[legacy-fts]

you sent that pm to me. jesus christ you're illiterate.

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

what PM?

[legacy-fts]

yeah go ahead and act clueless my e-homie.
http://www.tamparacing.com/photopost/data/500/medium/14780ethug.JPG

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

you are sick.

[legacy-fts]

"wtf. serously, now, you are a freak."
keep posting buddy, you are almost to 1,000!!

back on topic:
- keep ut99 movement including the flips.
- Remove the shield gun!!

[legacy-fts]

- have the skins bright enough for competitive play and maybe include hitsounds as well so a third party mutator such at utcomp doesn't have to be released.

- Have the overall style of the game be more sci-fi/medieval like ut99. Some of the characters and maps in ut2k3/4 just didn't fit well in the unreal series.

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

''and no i'm not going to try to make a mod, sorry i actually have a life (unlike dom). tootaloooooooo ''

LOL! this is funny, now you are calling EPIC guys lifeless!!!! you think EPIC needs to get a life then woah dude. Btw, E-Thugs feature was a really unmature thing from your part. Kinda funny, you must be
comic or something no?

by the way, making a mod doesnt mean you have no life,
you are just calling epic guys lifeless then.

[legacy-Retodon8]

"have the skins bright enough for competitive play and maybe include hitsounds as well so a third party mutator such at utcomp doesn't have to be released."

Epic already made the skins in UT2004 brighter, and UC2 has that emmissive lighting effect for team skins, so I'm sure they'll make things easy enough to see.
I suppose the "competetive" players will always be a part of a team, so the fact that not all non-team skins have the effect doesn't matter.
Then again, some people don't think anything is easy enough to see, hence the invention of brightskins.

Although I agree with them, this is not just my opinion, as Epic does not like brightskins, as in the bright pink/orange/whatever ugliness that doesn't even gets influenced by shadows in the maps.
Hitsounds is just as silly a concept if you ask me, unrealistic and removing the need for some skills in the game.
Juding whether or not you hit someone by paying attention to blood, pain sounds, or the way somebody gets blown away is a skill.
Noticing the way the person looks or doesn't look for health, and plain old guessing how much damage you did are nice, subtle things that shouldn't be removed from the game with a crutch like hitsounds.

Again, this is not just my opinion.
I hope that if I'm wrong in any way, Epic will correct me, but until then, don't expect anything like the above.
Also a third party mutator will be released soon enough.
I know, third party, meaning it won't be as popular as something out of the box, but the amount of servers with TTM I think it's called indicate it's not that bad for the people that want it.
Also no matter what Epic will do for competetive play, it will never be good enough.

"Have the overall style of the game be more sci-fi/medieval like ut99. Some of the characters and maps in ut2k3/4 just didn't fit well in the unreal series."

I agree with you here partially.
Unreal is nice for having a multitude of environments, but some environments should be considered experiments, and if they're not up to par, they should be removed.
Something like Quake never held my attention, I never really played it, and a big reason for that was the seeing the same brown/grey gothic castle-sci-fi-whatever-style environment all the time.
Adding diversity means adding potential failures.

Personally I like the shift from Anubans (old yellow Egyption brick with very little electronics and strobing lights to make it more sci-fi) to Nakthi (much more high-tech-looking, better fitting with the other sci-fi stuff) very much.
It's just a more original theme the the almost regular Egyptian style, and it's not all that similar to Stargate either if you don't just give it a first glance, although there are similarities of course.

[legacy-DoMiNaToR]

''Something like Quake never held my attention, I never really played it, and a big reason for that was the seeing the same brown/grey gothic castle-sci-fi-whatever-style environment all the time. ''

yeah, when you play Quake, seems like you are always in pure hell.
In my opinion, that doesnt matter for me, but, Unreal is well know because of its environments, its always much much better have a lot of diferent enviros and planets than always the same place with same enviro.

but really, that doesnt really matter for me, it does matter a lot for the game thought.

in less words, i agree with you on this, but my
opinion, it doesnt affect me.