Scale the whole map

[legacy-Nuclear hazard]

i made a map, just bsp right now, but i noticed in game that it is like 3.5 times bigger than it should be, what do i do??/plz, i tryed scaling all the bsps together using the scale actor tool, but realised that it would probably give me bsp holes in the future, becouse all my adds and substracts were out of the grid, is there anyother way to do it?

thanks in advance:) :up:

[legacy-sandorski]

Other than starting over, that's the only way. Try it, check for BSP holes, if there aren't any you're ok. If there are some, try Vertex Editing your BSP to fix the problem.

[legacy-Nuclear hazard]

they should put a "thing in unrealED looks bigger then they really are in-game" warning:downcast:

i will have to try that again

[legacy-sandorski]

hehe, most people seem to have this issue when starting out.

[legacy-NiTrOcALyPsE]

Are you kidding? This is easy. Just select everything you want to be scaled and go to Tools->Scale Map.

The settings are pretty straightforward. Although it should be noted that 'Adjust Lights' only reffers to the brightness of the light. Don't worry about the location and radius of lights, as long as 'Scale Locations' is checked, you will be fine. Likewise, the locations and radii of all other actors such as path nodes and triggers and what-have-you shall also be scaled accordingly.

[Angel_Mapper]

Pawn >> UnrealPawn >> xPawn is your friend.

[legacy-Ryandar]

That thing always makes me sad: I realize that no matter how what I try, double jumps still reach a height of 224, and characters are only 90-something units high, resulting in an oversized map.
UT maps are always huge in comparison to the players. Few people notice because since all maps are like that you get used to it, but just remember: doors aren't 2.5 times the height of a person in real life.

[Killer909]

Very true. Walking through perfectly scaled door frames can be really tricky even though a player should fit. I found that you had to walk directly in the middle or you would catch the edge of the door. Almost all maps in ut are bigger than is realistic, or they use wide and tall halls like in Rankin. There are several tricks to getting indoor maps scaled to the same size as the players though. Blocking volumes are your friend.

[legacy-NiTrOcALyPsE]

Originally posted by Ryandar
That thing always makes me sad: I realize that no matter how what I try, double jumps still reach a height of 224, and characters are only 90-something units high, resulting in an oversized map.
UT maps are always huge in comparison to the players. Few people notice because since all maps are like that you get used to it, but just remember: doors aren't 2.5 times the height of a person in real life.

I noticed this myself, it's rather frustrating.

[legacy-thinkingfeller]

this all makes a good case for blocking out levels and finalizing gameplay before the visuals are worked on.

gameplay > *

[legacy-Ryandar]

True, but no amount of premeditated planning is going to decrease the jump height of a player. Or is there some trick I haven't been let in on...?

I think the hard part is to create the illusion of proper scaling: trying to use static meshes to make everything seem normal.
This brings me to another extremely frustrating point: although everyone's used to corridors 3 times as high as themselves, the lack of realistic scale becomes painfully obvious as soon as you try to create real life objects. An example: I wanted to block off a "normal" (i.e. 256UU high) doorway with some debris. Now the blocked off area was supposed to be an office type of thing, so I thought to myself "hey, I'll whip up some desks and stuff in Maya and use those".
However, this is when the problem arises: people know how large a desk is, and if they have to jump to see the top of it, they'll notice it isn't scaled correctly. On the other hand, a desk scaled to player size will practically disappear in a map, and then players will notice that the map itself is actually huge.
It's a lose-lose situation that forces mappers to resort to more abstract smeshes (pipes' rocks, etc.), things that don't have a definitive size, in order to fool the player into thinking he's in a well-scaled environment.

Of course, in order for maps to be scaled properly, movement would have to be toned down, and this could only be done so much until it would detract from the unreal experience: dodges aren't realistic, but they sure are fun.

[legacy-sandorski]

If you want to block a doorway with a desk, make a normal sized desk and a Blocking Volume. Though some will think they can go there, most accept a situation if there is at least a basic visual cue as to where they can't go.

[legacy-Nuclear hazard]

thanks all:)


Originally posted by Angel_Mapper
Pawn >> UnrealPawn >> xPawn is your friend.
:eek: lol, i completely forgot about that


Originally posted by NiTrOcALyPsE
Are you kidding? This is easy. Just select everything you want to be scaled and go to Tools->Scale Map.

The settings are pretty straightforward. Although it should be noted that 'Adjust Lights' only reffers to the brightness of the light. Don't worry about the location and radius of lights, as long as 'Scale Locations' is checked, you will be fine. Likewise, the locations and radii of all other actors such as path nodes and triggers and what-have-you shall also be scaled accordingly. Thanks alot:eek: :up:

[Killer909]

I dont see what jumping 2.5 times as high has to do with scaling. just because the player can jump high doesnt mean you should make doorways taller. When walking through a door frame your head/eyes should be somewhere around 2/3 to 3/4 of the height of the frame. You can switch to 3rd person view to match that type of scale up. But as in real life, the height of door frames are not determined by how high people can jump.
I measured a player height to 96 UU, with eye level at 90 UU.

[legacy-thinkingfeller]

if you are to allow for any possible UT2004 movement, knowing how high a player jumps is very important to doorway scaling. this doesn't mean that you HAVE to make all your doorways 240 UU tall, but if you don't , you risk having a map that is difficult to navigate.

IMO, sticky, claustrophobic maps are not really that fun to play in standard UT2004 gameplay, which is why i think scale is so important. you really have to make room for double jumps, wall jumps, etc. to let the map breathe. forcing me into cramped quarters when I am used to moving around with dodge jumps is one of the quickest ways to get a map deleted from my hard drive. now, i'm sure there are mutators/mods that would make those cramped maps fun, so if you are mapping for those, scale that is closer to real life might be appropriate.

[Killer909]

I disagree. I think that doorways should have limited height just like in real life. any possible ut movement should not include every single movement at every single location of the map. smaller areas dont feel as claustrophobic if you dont constantly think about how you are going to doublejump or dodge to get away from rocket fire. I think what Im trying to say is that you should find better ways to fight than relying on using doublejumps and dodges... at least SOME of the time.

[legacy-thinkingfeller]

well, when you limit the ways a player can fight in a particular area, you limit the types of gameplay that can occur. it is still possible to accomodate both "claustrophobic" areas without limiting players movement. (eg. decreasing the number of exits from a room/hallway, or using dark lighting.)

the only time i can see where it would be advantageous to limit movement would be in a risk/reward situation, like the 100a or UDAM. then the player is taking a risk (entering small area where flak spam will be the end of you) for the reward.

i understand where you're coming from, and i totally see your point, but in my experience the most dynamic maps are the ones that allow for all different kinds of playing styles as much as possible.

in the end though, it's your map, and your playing style preference, so i don't want to say that this is necessarily the correct answer. for me though, in releasing maps publically, i have found that accomodating UT2004 movement wherever i can benefits the gameplay.

[legacy-Ryandar]

Based on my previous posts I think it's fairly obvious I side with BIOS on this one. Sometimes I'm tempted to make something smaller, be it for scaling or perceived gameplay reasons, but whenever I test it out, the scaled-down area/doorway/whatever seems to hurt gameplay. It's so frustrating to be running from a battle, do a double dodge jump towards a doorway and... slam into the top of it, halting your movement and turning you into rocket fodder.
It's at those times that I feel like mapping for a realism mod.

[Killer909]

Ryandar: Why would you jump towards a doorway? I assume you dont do stuff like that in real life, so I dont see why you would do that in a realistically scaled map. :D Of course you can pull off moves like that in over-scaled maps, but expecting to do that kind of style in a map that is not over-scaled? :rolleyes:

thinkingfeller: Very true. It seems you consider an area to be claustrophobic while I would consider it a place a player should switch up their style. And of course, either philosophy should never be taken to the extreme (unable to walk and unable to see the walls of a room due to distance fog).

[legacy-Ryandar]

Originally posted by Killer909
Ryandar: Why would you jump towards a doorway? I assume you dont do stuff like that in real life, so I dont see why you would do that in a realistically scaled map. :D Of course you can pull off moves like that in over-scaled maps, but expecting to do that kind of style in a map that is not over-scaled? :rolleyes:

I totally agree. Personally however, I think non-overscaled maps don't play very well, exactly because you can't pull off these unrealistic moves, and that's why I also don't make them myself.

Each to his own though of course.

[Jrubzjeknf]

please take shieldjumps into account too (whether it's for doorways or ceilings) ;)

[legacy-Ryandar]

Heh, I say phooey to the trick jumping community.
Well, that's not true, I try to add in some fun jumps, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna take goop boosted shield jumping with a shock secondary up your ass for good measure into account when making a map.

[Killer909]

I still think making a door frame tall enough that you clear it while double jumping is too much. But if you want to be able to clear shield jumps etc, thats just overkill. That sounds more like you are standing in a doorway making sure there is no possible way that you can bump your head. You have to consider some point as being overkill: What about turning god mode on and then shooting your feet with a redeemer with low gravity? Better make all doorways half a mile high. :D

[legacy-Ryandar]

Don't forget /fly!

[Killer909]

better put it in the skybox...

[legacy-Ryandar]

/ghost...