Beta Team ONS-BTM-IronMesa released

[legacy-Major_Tom_BETA]

Name: ONS-BTM-IronMesa

Version: Final

Compatibility: For UT2004

Description: ONS-BTM-Iron Mesa is a 8192x32768x32768 map. It offers eight power nodes and two power cores. There are two levels of battles upon the map, ground floor battles and elevated battles. Though our extensive testing, we have ensured the best possible game play is made available for this size map. We are proud to bring you this creation and hope you enjoy a tough challenge on any experience level you choose. It is stongly recommended that you set the round time lenth for Iron Mesa to 45 minutes. After familiarity with the map you might be able to reduce the time per round to 30 minutes.

Comments: Send Map comments to major tom at techie dot com. Our Intention was to make a ONS round last for well over 15 minutes of play on most settings. We accomplished that. <smirk>.

Screenshot: Screenie can be seen here => http://68.15.156.82/majortom/forum/index.php?showtopic=120

Credits:

Programmer, scripter, Expert Thug and Tester
FRYIN_PAN

Expert Thug, Map Exploiter and Testers
Den
Hicks
Citabria
Tankdealer
Vito
MustangMan

Initial Map Development, Expert Thug, Map Exploiter and Tester
Major_Tom_BETA

Homepage:www.beta-team.com

Download: Map at our web site, Beyond Unreal real soon, and other locations we'll post on our site. Temporarily it can be downloaded HERE http://68.15.156.82/ons-btm-ironmesa.zip

[legacy-Agroman]

Looks alright I guess, though the terrain texture badly needs to be scaled up.

[legacy-Major_Tom_BETA]

That screenie was taken well over a month ago, and under a different lighting. Its come a long way since then. :p

[legacy-cantelope]

Looks pretty good, even 4 a month a go.:D :up:

[musilowski]

I want new pics then! That looked awesome! :D:up:

[legacy-Major_Tom_BETA]

Thanks for the Kudo's.

There are a few more pics, have a look :



Iron Mesa Picture 1 (http://68.15.156.82/ironmesa.jpg)

Iron Mesa picture 2 (http://68.15.156.82/iron-mesa-preview3.bmp)

This map is the FIRST attempt in UT2004, and we're still learning about the editor and all of its abilities. We have mapped in other games, nearly 50 in the BattleZone II arena, so we are quite familiar how to do it. Now, all thats left is how to use and employ all the bells and whistles of the game. The next map in (already in production) will have some more items added. We'll try sounds, and a few scripts to see how they work.

We have the DVD version, thus the tutorials are easy to understand. We're getting there, slowly but surely !

Our concept was to develop a Map that didn't take long to create. Its a BASIC map with one heck of a punch. We play ALOT of ONS style maps, and we see some that could have taken 6 months to a year to make. Then, when played, some can be demolished in 5-15 minutes of game play. Thats a pity. We're trying to make maps that will last a bit longer, that way you get to view the entire map and unfortuantely become a bit frustated at winning the round / match.

[legacy-Major_Tom_BETA]

Link to Unreal Playground to download the map from a Mega Site.

http://www.unrealplayground.com/download.php?mapid=8634

Enjoy.

[Xyx]

I applaud your effort, I understand this is a first map, that you are still not overly familiar with the Toolset and that this map is meant to focus more on gameplay than visuals. Nevertheless, I also realize that improvement is advanced by honest feedback and constructive criticism. By posting here, you imply that you are open to such feedback. Here's mine. It is but a single opinion, no more. I give my opinion freely in the hopes that you benefit from it in some minor way. If you disagree, that's cool, it was just an opinion.

I wish I had the time to download and play the map, but alas, I do not. I will therefore restrict my comments to the screenshots and the general explanation given with the map.

The map looks unfinished, a beta.

The terrain is either flat ground or the same cliff static mesh repeated over and over. Even the most experienced mappers have a difficult time creating a believable environment with such a limited selection.

The fog is dense and not of a color I would expect of either dust or distance fog.

Decoration is almost nonexistant. The vegetation that is there seems almost randomly placed as afterthought, not to add atmosphere to specific parts of the map but just to "place vegetation" as if it were somehow a requirement.

The bridges defy physics. The arches are meant to rest on pillars. One does not have to be an architect to see that bridges such as these would snap under their own weight.

"Gameplay over visuals" is not a fix-all mantra. Emphasizing gameplay over visuals means optimizing FPS at the cost of detail, which is entirely not the same as simply neglecting visual detail. A map that lacks visual detail often lacks gameplay detail as well. For example, the subtle nuances of navigating gently flowing terrain in vehicles or on foot are lost on this map. This map could run at the same FPS and still look more attractive and play better.

You only have one chance at a first impression. Good screenshots in the initial post are vital if you want people to play your map. Not posting a screenshot (or simply linking to another site - especially one with an outdated screenshot) implies that you do not consider your map entirely worthy of showcasing. If you don't even think it's worth that little bit of extra effort, why should I think it's worth downloading?

Angel_Mapper has frequently stated that mappers should not publish their first dozen or so creations. While I consider that unnecessarily harsh on oneself and have seen many great first-time maps, I do believe there is wisdom in her words.

[legacy-Major_Tom_BETA]

A screenie review? LOL. Oh joy ! Your comments are noted, but only in respect to cosmetics. I didn't have time to read the enitre post, being it is quite long. :weird:

Not even any motivation to load the map and fly around the map in the ghost mode for a few minutes? Seems like there was enuff motivation to type that philabuster :p

Iron Mesa is about strategy. Something other than mere cosmetics and visuals. The map has and will continue to tick off alot of people, including seasoned Vets of the game. I see maps that take well over 6 months to a year to create, and wow. Great graphics, but the game can be won on Masterful level vs Bots in less than 5 minutes a round. Thats a pity. We won't sacrifice strategy for cosmetics. We produced a map that defies the default 20 minute per round "rule", and we're developing more of these as we "speak". They are gonna bust alot of peoples egos thats for sure ! :haha:

Last time I checked, Onslaught meant brutal combat. Imagine these wonderous 256,000 color visuals all ohhhs and awws out there. Humm something is wrong. Its supposed to be war torn, ugly and not so appealing. Your not the first team to come in and muck the place up with body parts. If you've been in a war zone, you know what I am talking about. We'll base our maps on the thinking mans' side of map creation rather than visuals. :p

I am not saying we won't ever create a nice looking eye appealing map. What I am saying is, for the people who play the maps, they can be the ones who better judge the map for game play. You want a heck of a fight or cosmetics? If you want a fight, choose Iron Mesa. You want logic, 256,000 colors, feel free to download another map. Enuff of a rebuttal. I'll reserve any additional comments. :noob:

[Xyx]

I'm only trying to help out, not trying to win a debate. There is no need for a "rebuttal". If you can't even be bothered to read feedback, then I don't have much hope of ever seeing pro-level mapping from you. May I suggest you read at the very least this part?

"Gameplay over visuals" is not a fix-all mantra. Emphasizing gameplay over visuals means optimizing FPS at the cost of detail, which is entirely not the same as simply neglecting visual detail. A map that lacks visual detail often lacks gameplay detail as well. For example, the subtle nuances of navigating gently flowing terrain in vehicles or on foot are lost on this map. This map could run at the same FPS and still look more attractive and play better.

[legacy-Major_Tom_BETA]

You didn't read between the lines I guess. I was using the same methodology you did in reviewing the map. I gave you a cursory overview and I think I hit a nerve. How did it feel ?

Exactly. :p

Pro ? Who said anything about Pro? I don't do this for a living, and what comes from the team is going to the best of thier part time abilities is willing to offer. We put a decent amount of time mapping. You should try it sometime, it can be quite frustrating, rewarding and relaxing in different sessions. :p

Its easy to see the people who want fluff, and again, as stated before. This is more of a strategy map, you want fluff, download another map. :rolleyes:

You say you won't "judge" the map other than whats viewable via screenshots and then use the "gameplay" without even any effort to light the game off and try the map. Thats a biased / limited overview at its best, and very stereotypical. Try mapping and see what it entails, or at the very least try the map before you offer an opinion about our products. Then your "first impression" might lead you somewhere. :noob:

[legacy-~RIP~Maverick=F]

Since release we play almost only custom maps on our clanserver. We also don`t play every night the same maplist, we test most of the new ons maps coming out and if they average or good in our opinion they are added and get used at least a couple of times per week. I can say we are quite experienced and got the "look" for a good map and i can ensure you we defenetly dont judge a map just after the visuals.

I am sorry to say that this map failed in every category whats important for us. The design is ugly. Its full of bugs. The link setup is the worst i ve seen. The "fog-effect" on far distances is disturbing and abled to give the players eye-cancer. After all that its far too big in size and the loading time is worse than Ranger-MSU. Playing this map makes me bored latest in 5 min, after 7 min i get annoyed due to the flickering foggy background effect because it disturbes my concentration.

If you don`t fix it i predict that 99 % players who seen this map won`t play it ever again.

Sorry again if you think this is too harsh, but you asked for it.

[legacy-Major_Tom_BETA]

Hey Mav,

I remember you from the Battlezone days with Aegeis and the other clans. You're entitled to your opinion and thats constructive criticism. At least you dove into the map and gave it a try. The map design was my own, I do the mapping and pass it onto another person to add the AI / paths and sky/fog and whatever else it needs.

Like I said above, Its an attempt at slowing down the frey a bit. With the node layout as it is, after taking the 4th node, the rest are extremely hard to hold. We play it on masterful level vs. Bots and there are times that achieving that 5th and forward nodes are extremely frustrating.

The BETA Team contemplates the reasoning of the additions in the map. Not always do members agree with certain things and there are sacrifces made. The fog is in your opinion quite a nuisance and creates eyestrain. Understood.

We have a variety of testers and they all range from AMD 2000+, some higher and some a bit slower. NONE of us ever experienced any long loading issues with the map, ever. We do NOT have the "skins" loading up on map load-up which eats 512MB of RAM. I don't know what kind of Box you are playing on, and I won't guess, contemplate or say anything bad on that.

Everyone has a set of criteria they like. If your a BZII stat'er you like the heat to start right in the beginning of the map. Thats not the intended purpose of Iron Mesa. Its meant to start off slower and then end with a gruesome ending.

As we did in BZII, we tune our maps toward the play of MPI or in this case, Bots. Its our choice and focus to choose this over Human vs. Human, and we know not everyone will like the outcome. Thats part of life. We don't expect to satisfy everyone. Thats a near impossibility in any arena.

The only comment thats a bit off color is the 99% of the players won't revisit the map. Other than that, your comments are noted.

[legacy-~RIP~Maverick=F]

Oh i see, you are that Major Tom, i remember you slightly. Anyway, i take the no. of 99 % back, might be a bit to high, agreed. But as i said, we are quite experienced in custom maps, since almost 2 years we do nothing but testing them. I am sorry again, but this map won`t be a success on the ons servers, i would be very suprised if i am wrong there.

I suggest the following tweaks:

1. make the map size smaller. Not alot servers are fully booked anymore these days, most of the time they have to live with 10-20 players (euro that is).
2. Get rid of that background-fog-effect. I believe you made that because of performance reasons. I cant tell you how to solve that, but you could prop. turn it off when the map size is smaller.
3. Link Setup: The current 10 nodes are to much. Even Ons-Kakmo doesnt have so many nodes and thats an good example for a big map what does work well. Also try to add one or two "key-nodes", very important places of the map where the battle desides and what give strategic oriented players a chance to show there genius. A simple example for such key-nodes is Dawn (the 2 middle ones in the center valley). On your map you could place one or twe key-nodes in the deserted center.
4. Check the map again for texture bugs and "holes". While our testing me and my m8 got stuck several times in gaps, holes or even trees with the vehicles.
5. Split the music file from the mapfile and put it as a seperate ogg to the zip. Afik that helps with the loading times a bit.

Btw, speaking of Battlezone: DeadScion aka DreamChaser converted 3 Battlezone2 maps for Onslaught: Chill, Mars, Dunes and Antarctica. The first 3 you will know cause they were stock and all i can tell you, we placed the nodes exactly where the pools suppose to be, for at least Chill and Mars it works awesome and produces some epic battles almost every night on our server, good ol Pandi mapdesign :) ) If you interested you can download them from our UT-Maps Download Thread from our board. Link: http://www.the-rip.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=950&boardid=50&styleid=3

I wish you and your team all best for your future projects.

[Xyx]

Originally posted by Major_Tom_BETA
I think I hit a nerve. How did it feel ?
Whoa, how vindictive. You have some serious problems dealing with feedback.


Originally posted by Major_Tom_BETA
Pro ? Who said anything about Pro? I don't do this for a living
And with an attitude like this, you never will.


Originally posted by Major_Tom_BETA
Try mapping and see what it entails
Try building a car from scratch before you buy one. :bulb:

I'll not make the mistake of trying to do you a favor again. Good day, sir. I am out of this thread.

[legacy-Major_Tom_BETA]

YAY! I'm glad thats over. LOL ! :haha:

Ya didn't want a debate, and your quote and biased opinion was turning into a beat-the-dead-horse-back-to-life contest. I am NOT into feeding you threads. Geesh. :weird:

Its NOT vindictive, its reversing the roles and level of effort and negativity you approached the topic about. High criticism and biased opinions based on a screenie. Go figure. :bulb:

You can't take what you dish out. I suggest reading the lyrics to Metallica's song "Misery". For the immediate moment, it seems more than appropriate. :sour:

[legacy-Riktar]

Originally posted by Major_Tom_BETA
High criticism and biased opinions based on a screenie. Go figure. :bulb:


Welcome to learning.

[legacy-Major_Tom_BETA]

Welcome to learning.

Learning was not and still not is the issue. The cut and quote is like throwing your two cents worth in as if you expect a reply.

OK, I'll give one. I announced that the map was released. I expected some positive feedback and some criticism to come and it did. All thats cool, but the only one who has shown any effort in the thread so far has Been RIP Mav. Others expect to bump up thier posts with drive by postings. I take that input like the immediate post above as one that fits the criteria that the person is bored, needs attention or enjoys confrontations.

Learning is about constructive criticism and offering a way to help. Dont load up your gun and pretend to be helpful, when your immediate intent is to cause ruffle feathers. This is a Video Game, its not something thats an end of the world science project that is dependent on survival.

Learning is about having the knowldge to pass on something with constructive criticism. You HAVE the knowledge to provide a feedback that will be generally accptible. You have been there, done that. Don't offer map critiques by simply viewing pictures and say yeah, there's all these faults I can see, but I am not willing nor able to light off the map and give a decent review. Thats like Motor Trend Magazine basing the Car / Truck of the Year based on the paint job.

Thats what MY rebuttals are about, its offering constructive criticism to the first so called reply to my announcement.

And life in general, people always will take the time and pick up the phone or write emails and go out of their way to communicate negativity. It's easier to assume that role since it's easier to do. People also do that same task in a positive manner but not as much.

If your going to offer feedback, make it worthy of posting, show the level of effort like Mav did. He replied and gave constructive feedback. If your not capable or willing to perform that, then, it's best that you should read than post.

I am not hard to get along with, nor am I vindictive as the person way above seems to be. That person's sore that I didn't accept his feedback as genuine. It's not in my eyes because there was little to no effort involved, only the eagerness to type crap based on his immediate interpretation, and going from an opening line of a fair review to an immdeiate assumption and stereotypical analytical review of something he's never even bothered to open and test in the first place.

Learning is about having the knowledge to put your words into constructive format. Its simple to do, if you have the means to do so. Learning how to respond and when to respond shows maturity and forward thinking. Otherwise it tends to show your age and your level of effort not only in posting but how you carry yourself in lfe. I am far more successful in the real life scenario than in mapping, hands down. I do mapping because its nice to do, it's enjoyable and I am able to have a half decent end product. Then the Beta-Team comes in and offers support, and as a Team we have a finished product. I am in no way implying that the map, in my mind is perfect. It's not. But AGAIN, if you have feedback to offer about the map in general say it. If its to post because you thnk its funny and you want to perform at a half tilt level, your're wasting your time and your input will be thrown in the appropriate flushing device.

We'll take some of Mav's advice and apply it to future releases and scrutinize them prior to release. we might even go as far as BETA releasing them, but thats questionable due to limted the back we have recieved in past projects. We have a Team that pretty much tears the map apart, but again, until you "learn" the ins and outs of the gaming engine and see what the happy medium is for most maps, its a true learning experience. Thats what the constructive criticism and praise leads to, a decent acceptible re-release or those notes added to the touches of an upcoming creation. If it's worthy. Post if it's trash, take it with you.


Not bad for a 6am-sh posting eh ?

Philabuster Complete.

[legacy-Ryandar]

xYz just gave you some basic advice. I agree with him: your terrain looks terrible and I wouldn't wanna be walking under those bridges. He was very polite in his reply, admitting that all his remarks were based on what he saw from the screenshots, and then instead of thanking him for at least taking the time to give you feedback, you bite back, ignoring all his valid points.
Visuals aren't the main objective, but making your terrain anything other than a flat sheet adds strategy.

Then, to make matters even worse, you turn around and say that Mav's replies are much better. Newsflash, Mav told you your map was pretty damn terrible. He did take the time to look around the map, and came to pretty much the same conclusions xYz did, plus some more gameplay oriented ones. xYz's replies showed the same "level of effort" as you call it: he might not have played the map, but he did comment (correctly) on your design.

And who are you to talk about "Learning how to respond and when to respond"? After that unprovoked "rebuttal" directed at xYz, I think you should learn the meaning of "self-knowledge".

[Piglet]

am sorry again, but this map won`t be a success on the ons servers, i would be very suprised if i am wrong there.

Hi.

I try to look at every new ONS map that I can lay my hands on - in the hope that it will be a cracker. Also in the hope that it might work ok with the high player count we have on the server I help admin. I've looked at a lot of maps in various stages of development and worked with some of the mappers to perfect them.

I'm sorry to say that I agree with the quote above. The whole map feels and plays like a very early beta of a map. I would really like to be able to offer encouragement and ways in which this map could be made great - but I honestly think you're on to a loser with this idea. I hope other people disagree with me - and have lots of fun with it.

For me the layout just will not work, it feels bland and unfinished, the meshes selected are sticky and you've not done anything to stop them being manta-glue (I flew a manta into a bush to see what would happen and I was stuck - the only way out was to suicide). The node setup means that there's no way the gameplay is going to be remotely interesting to the majority of ONS players - and the layout means that there's little that could be done to make a better custom setup. The final straw in putting me off it entirely is the weapon and vehicle selections you've made in the map. There's not even a shock rifle at the core!

Hopefully the things you learned in making this map will help you with the next one.