AntiTCC once more...

[legacy-Abilio_KID]

You guys and gals have to excuse me for bringing up a subject that was talked so many times already but this is making me impossible to play UT2004 at all.
The problem is that even with a new ISP, new OS, new drivers, etc., I'm still having problems online. The thing is that altough I have a 'normal' ping (at least considering the fact I'm playing on foreign server because I have none here) I still get heavy spikes of packet loss and a big delay in all action of the game. You must be thinking bad connection, bad ISP... but this new one is great so far. The packet loss only happens when other(s) player(s) aproach me. The packet loss goes sky high for a second or two and then everything is fine again. I can actually see that when the AntiTCC message about the checks shows up, the PL increases or at least the ping goes nuts up and down. I can also say I played a few days ago on a UTAN server where I had to wait one minute for the checks to finish. What stumbles me is that the game was smooth, no packet loss at all. Eventually I saw I could frag a lot more.
This also gives me strange delay. On a good server it's common that I die without seeing who the feck got me and then the beam pass by my side not really hitting me. These are all simptoms of lag but like I said even happen with nice pings. The common factor here is the final AntiTCC.
I've tried everything I could to make it playable but it still happens everywhere. I'm an only instaggiber guy (personal choice, you play what you like) but all this is putting me aside of UT2004. Even some Invasion servers now have AntiTCC, ffs...
I'm out of ideas here. Is it the lack of CPU power or something (AMD 2000+)? Heck, this is just a bigger UT2003 version. I'm talking DM here, not the ONS or Assault thing. I'm not going to suport any other future UT version (even if I get a top machine) it this keeps going on.
To me AntiTCC was a good idea that went down the drain. I can deal with cheaters without problems. I spent a couple of hours playing against one on a non AntiTCC server the other day and it didn't bother me at all. Guess what, I wasn't lagging there. I even made jokes on the guy and had a good laugh. I think that's what pubs are for: FUN, right?

If someone cares to spend a minute debating this (or flaming) be my guest. I'd just like to play (even if I suck) a good match of non lagging UT2004.:sour:

nOOb lagging out...

[The5thviruz]

PARAGRAPHS PLZ

[legacy-|IB|Chrome]

afteronly returning recently after a bad accident, i havn't been in the loop very long. However I have noticed that all the servers I used to play on lag like crap and the strange thing is iI still have the same ping. Im fully convinced that antitcc is the cause...Mind you im all for getting rid of cheaters but not at the expense of gameplay.

Another thing I would like someone to help me figure out is why when i play a game offline (with mutators such as ttm, or custom voice packs) then i try to get online i get kicked because of these files! Im honestly worried that these false positives will get me banned globally in UTAN cause some admins might be paranoid. Again...its the sequence, i play offline then try online, get rejected because of "incompatible game files" or some crap. I can fix it by exiting the game then opening and reconnecting...

:down:

[legacy-Xipher]

Originally posted by |IB|Chrome
afteronly returning recently after a bad accident, i havn't been in the loop very long. However I have noticed that all the servers I used to play on lag like crap and the strange thing is iI still have the same ping. Im fully convinced that antitcc is the cause...Mind you im all for getting rid of cheaters but not at the expense of gameplay.

Another thing I would like someone to help me figure out is why when i play a game offline (with mutators such as ttm, or custom voice packs) then i try to get online i get kicked because of these files! Im honestly worried that these false positives will get me banned globally in UTAN cause some admins might be paranoid. Again...its the sequence, i play offline then try online, get rejected because of "incompatible game files" or some crap. I can fix it by exiting the game then opening and reconnecting...

:down:
Have you updated to the recent patch?

[Spaz]

The AntiTCC haters already killed it. Wormbo got tired of hearing about it. Stop the *****ing its dead.

[legacy-SexyDan]

The only problem i've ever had with AntiTCC were the MidGame checks, and sometimes the file checks took too long/lagged a bit. Otherwise it's not bad.

[legacy-Riffage]

Originally posted by Abilio_KID
I can also say I played a few days ago on a UTAN server where I had to wait one minute for the checks to finish. What stumbles me is that the game was smooth, no packet loss at all. Eventually I saw I could frag a lot more. Hate to break it to you, but UTAN is not Anti-Cheat, its only purpose its only a ban management system. http://utan.unrealadmin.org/whatisutan.php
Originally posted by |IB|Chrome
Im honestly worried that these false positives will get me banned globally in UTAN cause some admins might be paranoid.Won't happen.

[legacy-Powerslave666]

Lately I've been getting delay with shock and lg.

[legacy-Necromancer]

Originally posted by SexyDan
The only problem i've ever had with AntiTCC were the MidGame checks, and sometimes the file checks took too long/lagged a bit. Otherwise it's not bad.

yeah
really no problems here
:)

Ive had punkbuster affect me much worse

[legacy-Abilio_KID]

The5thviruz, I count about 5 paragraphs there unless my eyes are fooling me.

|IB|Chrome, welcome to the wonders of this game. The code of those modifications to the game remains loaded in memory so the only way to get rid of it is like you said. Also try doing like Xipher said.

Spaz007, who hates AntiTCC? I just hate the secondary effects of it and the bad configuring of it from servers admin. Is it dead? Didn't know about it. No wonder it's called 'final' now. I still lag with it though...

SexyDan, it's always a bit annoying the mid checks.

Rif***e, actually I kinda knew that but got a bit confused. The server I talked of had the checks on the beggining of the match. Probably even AntiTCC but well configured.

Powerslave666, maybe related, maybe not.

Necromancer, weird but some of us don't have any issues with it. Not sure why.

Well, tomorrow is another day, I have to work and this game will remain like it is. Just need other things to do on my spare time.

[legacy-Abilio_KID]

joepjens, thanks for the info. I can't really remember what it was but I think I have the server on my favourites now (I wonder why;)). I'll check later.

[legacy-KCP]

Let me see...IF YOU DONT LIKE ANTITCC DONT PLAY ON SERVERS THAT RUN IT.

Plus at least wormbo has tried to give to the community. i always have loved antitcc as it is the best, safest, and less laggiest of all of them out there. My only question to u antitcc haters that caused him to stop. WHAT THE HECK HAVE U DONE FOR THIS COMMUNITY.

[legacy-Abilio_KID]

Originally posted by KCP
Let me see...IF YOU DONT LIKE ANTITCC DONT PLAY ON SERVERS THAT RUN IT.

Plus at least wormbo has tried to give to the community. i always have loved antitcc as it is the best, safest, and less laggiest of all of them out there. My only question to u antitcc haters that caused him to stop. WHAT THE HECK HAVE U DONE FOR THIS COMMUNITY.

Where should I play then? Do you realize how many servers I can play without AntiTCC or with a decent ping to my country?
About AntiTCC:
Wormbo had a great idea and tried to use it the best he could;
Cheaters (the real ones, not the nOObs with general scripts) saw a challenge and fought back;
Wormbo tried to get better and did extra checkings;
Cheaters liked it and tried their best again;
Wormbo had no choice but to check even my a:\ drive;
We started to lag;
People complained;
Wormbo tried to fix it;
Cheaters started laughing;
We complained and lagged even more;
Wormbo gave up;
We're still lagging...
In the end they can always pass those protections anyway.

[Spaz]

I hope as this thread grows you will see why I posted what I did. :sour:

BTW I never had any lag. I only knew it was checking my HD because of the big yellow letters on the screen.

[legacy-KCP]

Which is why my clan server runs Antitcc and UTAN :P

[Spaz]

I heard at one point that SafeGame uses a Aimbot check that works during the entire game. It this true?

[legacy-KCP]

Yea. ASnd u can tell when a anti cheat lags the game for a full 20 minutes :bulb:

[legacy--Sasuke-]

'Course wormbo did his best, but it won't ever be good enough. Cheaters will find a way around it, so there is no point in having atcc if they just get around each new version. All we need is good admins and less paranoia.

[Spaz]

I think he started making it do more checks then he really needed. The saying in my programming classes was "Keep it simple stupid" or the KISS method. Instead of making a better method of detecting the Aimbots. He reused his old checks and then added more. I'm sure there are some simpler in-game real-time checks that could do a better job.

[legacy--Twista-]

Originally posted by Powerslave666
Lately I've been getting delay with shock and lg.

I even get sound delay with the final crap.
( note: for the whole match, not only for the 30 minute check at the beginning :rolleyes: )


Originally posted by KCP
Let me see...IF YOU DONT LIKE ANTITCC DONT PLAY ON SERVERS THAT RUN IT.

Plus at least wormbo has tried to give to the community. i always have loved antitcc as it is the best, safest, and less laggiest of all of them out there. My only question to u antitcc haters that caused him to stop. WHAT THE HECK HAVE U DONE FOR THIS COMMUNITY.

Oh, that´s like so original" if you don´t like it, don´t play on it" . Does this have to be said in every thread where people talk about crappy mutators? It ruined many servers.
It was never the best, safest and less laggiest. If it was then only because there was nothing else. There were always hacks that got around anti-tcc. It was just made so there´s 2 days without cheaters and then another new hack is released. Other than that it lagged the **** out of everybody and it took 3 days until stupid admins updated after a new patch. Of course he did something about it and I liked anti-tcc till about version 12 , when it came lag-tcc and the midgaychecks got introduced. In the final version I´m unable to see my cursor when pressing escape in the first 2 minutes because it checks about my whole 80gb drives for the evil hacks. and it´s not just the 2 minutes delay, I´ll check if the demo I recorded 2 days ago, on a server where I got a ping of 30 and no p/l at all has the same soundlag at the whole time, then I´ll upload it. I only know that this ****ty lag only appears on anti-tcc servers during the whole match , which makes playing on one of these servers total crap.

Maybe Elf releases a new hack soon then the admins can take that mut off their server , in exchange for about 2 cheaters that will run around in the whole world of UT.

Cheaters>lag

[=XM=]

The initial checks of antitcc are not a problem, just wait till it's over.
My one and only problem with antitcc is the mid-game checks. I don't know if it's bad config from server admins, but on some servers, the midgame-check lags me for a full 2 seconds, which is way too long.
However, despite this, antitcc is necessary, do you see Epic making any effort to prevent cheats? It's really a shame that all the whiners disgusted Wormbo and that he has stopped working on antitcc.

As for the weird lag, it's the game itself, I don't know if it's the last patch, but even with pings below 30 and absolutely 0 packet loss, there definitely is a lag. I can feel it with the lg and the shock. I am not the only one who has this problem, many people have the same problem. This weird lag occurs on servers not running antitcc also, which is why I don't think it's antitcc causing it. Maybe they changed something in the netcode?

In the end however, the best protection against cheaters = good admins + players demoreccing cheaters + UTAN.

edit:How strange, Twista was on my ignore list somehow, even though I never added anyone to my ignore list:weird:

[legacy--Twista-]

Originally posted by =XM=


As for the weird lag, it's the game itself, I don't know if it's the last patch, but even with pings below 30 and absolutely 0 packet loss, there definitely is a lag. I can feel it with the lg and the shock. I am not the only one who has this problem, many people have the same problem. This weird lag occurs on servers not running antitcc also, which is why I don't think it's antitcc causing it. Maybe they changed something in the netcode?


No it´s not. Happens only on lag-tcc servers for me.

[legacy-psh1ft]

Safe-game is less laggy? It spends 5 minutes checking, lagging me, then once it's done I'm lagged with every shot. Hell, it even lowers my framerate. Perhaps I've only experienced it set up incorrectly, but to my mind Anti-TCC was miles ahead.

R.I.P. Anti-TCC. :sour: Someone needs to take Wormbo's code and continue updating it, but I fear only Wormbo himself could do that without starting from scratch.

[legacy-Gaal Dornik]

AntiTCC is not aimed to fight the cheats makers, its useless, besides, their cdkeys are already banned anyway most probably. Its goal is to fight the cheat users, which it does pretty well. Also i have yet to feel lag during game, i.e other then checking time.

PS SafeGame lags more imho.

[legacy-KCShadowDragon]

Personally I've never had any problems described in this thread. No matter if I'm on an Anti-TCC server or not. It takes all of 10 seconds to do it's inital check. In the first 10 seconds of my games I'm loading up weapons anyhow (I play ONS mostly. As said before this is my choice you play what you like) Eventually the mid game check gets me. But in no time I'm back fighting.

Maybe I'm just lucky. Maybe I'm an exception to the rule in this case. Either way I don't see it as a problem. Ultimately I feel the responsibility ends on the shoulders of the admins. If they do not properly configure the items on their server who gets the blame? (in this case) Wormbo. Because all people see is the Anti-TCC checks on their screen. *shrug*

I guess I'm trying to say before you assign blame think about the whole picture. There is more to this problem than just using a blanket statement to apply blame.



*grabs his flamesuit just in case*

[Shambler]

Pah...I still don't understand why admins don't just lock these threads.

AntiTCC is the most effective cheat stopping tool I've ever seen in Unreal games to date and it's a real pity that Wormbo has not gotten the appreciation he so deserved for his hard work.:sour:

[legacy-psh1ft]

Gaal's right. Anti-TCC wasn't for people that make the cheats, but the incompetent asshats that download the cheats and use them. If cheating was limited to those that can make them, the problem would be far less.

Epic oughta contract Wormbo and make it a standard. That way all the pissing and whining about it would fall on deaf ears. The guy did such a good job, putting in plenty of hard work for nothing to have the community turn on him, and now we're left with sub-standard cheat protection. GG. :sulk:

[Magwa]

Originally posted by psh1ft
Gaal's right. Anti-TCC wasn't for people that make the cheats, but the incompetent asshats that download the cheats and use them. If cheating was limited to those that can make them, the problem would be far less.

Epic oughta contract Wormbo and make it a standard. That way all the pissing and whining about it would fall on deaf ears. The guy did such a good job, putting in plenty of hard work for nothing to have the community turn on him, and now we're left with sub-standard cheat protection. GG. :sulk:

You people who say it is a effective way to catch cheaters are plain and simply pulling rabbitts out yo A$$'s it is effective for how long 1 day two at most???? then you need a new version for gods sake get a grip on reality. the problem is people like you who are so damned parinoid about cheaters that you go crying wolf all day!

Make it standard and you will just make this version of UT's death that much quicker....you need to sit down and listen to all the people who have legit complaints about the lag it is real not imagined...

edit..how many of you who say you get no lag are playing with under a 60 ping? i would not know i never ping under 90 to 100 and it lags me so bad that i play on Flaks server with a 160 ping and it plays better. also you seem to ignore the other reason alot of people are complaining it does not allow you to have custom content like voice packages so it is really easy if you do not want to have the editor and have custom content then just tell Epic and they will make the next one to play ONLY what you get on the CD!

[legacy--Sasuke-]

Originally posted by Magwa
You people who say it is a effective way to catch cheaters are plain and simply pulling rabbitts out yo A$$'s it is effective for how long 1 day two at most???? then you need a new version for gods sake get a grip on reality. the problem is people like you who are so damned parinoid about cheaters that you go crying wolf all day!

Make it standard and you will just make this version of UT's death that much quicker....

Agreed! Very true.

There are so few cheaters, who can be caught so easily. If we would just quit spazzing out about the occasional cheater, they probably wouldn't get as much joy out of it. Botters (few and far between, if you think otherwise your an idiot) bot for 2 reasons.

1. They suck at ut
2. They like to piss people off

Any aimbotter that reads this forum is laughing his ass off and all these paranoid players. Wormbo had a pure idea, but it really wasn't needed. So few botters, so easy to catch. We need to let the "OH NOES AIMBOT" paranoia die down, work on our ut skills instead of cry on public forums, and quit flooding servers with "protection" that can be bypassed in a day (making the protection void, and only causing lag issues -- I do play servers with atcc, but i wish they didn't have it on there, there is no need -- just get some respectable admins)

[legacy-Sandtiger]

I for one have never experienced Packetloss due to AntiTCC and i am on dialup.

I agree with -Sasuke- its just a game and all the people crying Aimbot cause they get owned or someone has good aim is getting old.

@KCShadowDragon +1 im the same way.

[legacy--Sasuke-]

Originally posted by Sandtiger
I for one have never experienced Packetloss due to AntiTCC and i am on dialup.

I agree with -Sasuke- its just a game and all the people crying Aimbot cause they get owned or someone has good aim is getting old.

@KCShadowDragon +1 im the same way.

I have experienced some lag and a little PL at the beginning and during midgame checks, and i really don't mind, but it isn't needed.

I'm not trying to say that everyone who says "aimbot" just got owned by a good player, but i think the majority of this community thinks there are alot more aimbots than there really are. I would say less than 1% of the community uses "hax".

[legacy-psh1ft]

Don't be so ridiculous. I'm not paranoid about botters; in fact I've only come across a handful of them since UT99. However, it seems quite plain that some form of cheat protection is preferable to none at all. Even one cheater stopped is worthwhile, in my opinion.

Additionally, nowhere did I state that these problems with Anti-TCC are imagined, but the way I look at it is that people will still be lagging without it, people will still piss and whine. Doubtless there are elements in the game itself that make it lag, but they're accepted because they're in-house. No-one's calling for the lag-causing weapons to be removed from the game! Cheat protection is arguably just as fundamental, and we should at least have the choice without being criticized.

And you complain about people crying aimbot? More than a little hypocritical, I'd say.

People are always going to want some form of insurance against cheating. The only thing this anti Anti-TCC nonsense has done is set back the cheat protection, leaving us with less capable, even more lag-ridden mutators like Safe Game.

What a great contribution to the community you've made! :down:

[legacy-~o~wombat~o~]

Originally posted by =XM=
edit:How strange, Twista was on my ignore list somehow, even though I never added anyone to my ignore list:weird:
Strange here as well. I've never put anyone on my ignore list and suddenly Twista is there.

[legacy--Sasuke-]

Originally posted by psh1ft
Don't be so ridiculous. I'm not paranoid about botters; in fact I've only come across a handful of them since UT99. However, it seems quite plain that some form of cheat protection is preferable to none at all. Even one cheater stopped is worthwhile, in my opinion.

Additionally, nowhere did I state that these problems with Anti-TCC are imagined, but the way I look at it is that people will still be lagging without it, people will still piss and whine. Doubtless there are elements in the game itself that make it lag, but they're accepted because they're in-house. No-one's calling for the lag-causing weapons to be removed from the game! Cheat protection is arguably just as fundamental, and we should at least have the choice without being criticized.

And you complain about people crying aimbot? More than a little hypocritical, I'd say.

People are always going to want some form of insurance against cheating. The only thing this anti Anti-TCC nonsense has done is set back the cheat protection, leaving us with less capable, even more lag-ridden mutators like Safe Game.

What a great contribution to the community you've made! :down:

I dunno who this is targeted at, but all i'm saying is that your insurance lasts all of about a day. So unless you want to update and make a new version every day or so, go for it. But you'll still never stop the small percentage of cheaters. It's not possible. I'm not complaing about people saying aimbot, but i do think that most of this community believes it happens way more than it actually does. Thus, paranoia (not directed at you, but the community -- which is true, hence alot of new players claim aimbot when it's just a skilled player -- not saying you did this but it happens here alot.)

I also stated that what wormbo is doing is a pure, genuine idea. Thing is, it really doesn't help very much. It gives the bot makers something to do...

bot maker: hmm how can i get around this new version

(a day later)

bot maker: haha bypassed already!

I'm not a modder, mapper, or anything like that. The only thing I have given the community is my opinion, some like it - some don't.

Again, i'm not criticizing for admins putting it on servers, or trying to stop cheaters.. just stating that no matter what you do it really isn't going to help in the end. I also didn't complain about the small lag and packetloss brought by atcc.

I'm not against it, but it is basically useless (tho i'm glad we have people willing to try to stop it)

edit: to the people with twista on your ignore list, this is because folk is a douche, and posted a link to instantly add him to ignore. I think it's because he's jealous of twists' sexiness.

edit 2 (lol sry): psh1ft, im not saying we shouldnt do anything about botters, the best thing to do is have a reliable set of admins that can be reached easily, then ban, reban if needed. or just password your server and dont give the pw to anyone outside your clan or clan match buddies.

[legacy--Twista-]

Originally posted by ~o~wombat~o~
Strange here as well. I've never put anyone on my ignore list and suddenly Twista is there.

It´s because of Folk´s dumbness. I did the same to him about 3 months ago( in a thread where he was just posting bs) and it obviously hurt him so much that he posted a link to ignore me yesterday without a reason.



Originally posted by -Sasuke-


edit: to the people with twista on your ignore list, this is because folk is a douche, and posted a link to instantly add him to ignore. I think it's because he's jealous of twists' sexiness. <3

[legacy-psh1ft]

Sasuke; the paranoia element was aimed at Magwa who all but accused me of being so - the rest was for you.

Do you not agree that some form or cheat protection is better than none at all? Failing that, do you not agree that some will always want it? Further, do you not agree that there will always be something to replace Anti-TCC, or whatever the most prevalent form of cheat protection there is?

As it stands we've lost Anti-TCC cuz of people like you, forcing admins to look to inferior, more problematic mutators to fulfill the role of cheat protection, which obviously many feel is needed.

You see your negativity achieves nothing - you're just pissing in the wind - even if you do have some valid points to make.

[legacy--Sasuke-]

Originally posted by psh1ft
Do you not agree that some form or cheat protection is better than none at all? Failing that, do you not agree that some will always want it? Further, do you not agree that there will always be something to replace Anti-TCC, or whatever the most prevalent form of cheat protection there is?

As it stands we've lost Anti-TCC cuz of people like you, forcing admins to look to inferior, more problematic mutators to fulfill the role of cheat protection, which obviously many feel is needed.

You see your negativity achieves nothing - you're just pissing in the wind - even if you do have some valid points to make.

Actually I disagree, I think admins should admin their servers, instead of leaving it to a program that is outdated in a day or so. I don't think we should use programs, but run secure servers thru admining and knowledge.

I'm not "hating" on atcc at all,

"You see your negativity achieves nothing - you're just pissing in the wind - even if you do have some valid points to make."

I'm simply making those valid points to show that atcc has become useless, sadly. Alot of hard work went into making the program, but sadly it had little effect. I believe I haven't been negative, but for some reason you think I am.

I have calmly and rationally made points, and I don't think that's hurting the community at all.

[legacy-psh1ft]

You really think there should be a person to each server, administrating 24/7? Sit there administrating an empty server cuz someone may possibly come in, etc.? It's a wonderful ideal, but it doesn't even border on the realistic.

I've no intention of turning this into a slanging match, posting back and forth but considering people will always want a mutator to serve this purpose and negativity like yours has injured this, I don't think you have a leg to stand on. I appreciate you want to defend yourself, but you must see the point I'm making here.

[legacy-~o~wombat~o~]

@ Twista: Thanks for the explanation. Folk seems a bit idiotic, but what can you do? It's a public forum that doesn't require a "no idiots" test to join.

@ Sasuke: ROFL :D

Regarding the whole anti-cheat conversation, I personally think it's useless. The bot and cheat coders will always beat the newest cheat protection in a couple of days, and the lamers will still download the latest bots and cheats and use them. It's a circle that only takes away from the enjoyment of the game.

IMO it's better to deal with cheaters directly. When I see a botter in game, I just harass them until they leave. That ruins their fun and actually creates fun for me. Or demo them, get their ID, and notify the server admin.

[legacy--Sasuke-]

Originally posted by psh1ft
You really think there should be a person to each server, administrating 24/7? Sit there administrating an empty server cuz someone may possibly come in, etc.? It's a wonderful ideal, but it doesn't even border on the realistic.

I've no intention of turning this into a slanging match, posting back and forth but considering people will always want a mutator to serve this purpose and negativity like yours has injured this, I don't think you have a leg to stand on. I appreciate you want to defend yourself, but you must see the point I'm making here.

I don't think servers should be admined 24/7 but have a selection of admins that could be reached thru irc/msn/aim/whatnot...Sure sometimes there would be no admin around, so take a demo of the cheater (let him have his fun for a moment) then show the admin, problem solved. Banned for life. If there are no admins around, you don't have to play there. Plenty of servers to choose from. The sad thing is, you can still get hit by botters with atcc on. So then you have some lag at the beginning and during the middle of the match (when you die) for nothing.

I don't want to make this into a flame war either, and I honestly don't know why you think I have been so negative. I'm just being honest, not even in a bad way. I understand that people want cheat protection, but what good does it do if you have to update it and fix it (alot of work for wormbo) if you have to update it every week, not even that, everyday?

Sorry if I got on your bad side, but give me the same respect I have given you. (no flames, only rational discussion)

[legacy-psh1ft]

Again, your ideas about administration seem a little naïve. The majority of players have no idea they can contact an admin, no idea how to make a demo (let alone submit it).

Your comments about Anti-TCC are about how it doesn't do the job it was intended to do. That's negativity, no matter how calmly stated, no matter how constructive you feel it is.

Anti-TCC could be a 0 kb placeholder that does nothing, but people will still want it. People still want cheat protection, no matter how useless. In light of this your negativity, no matter how constructive, has only removed one thing to be replaced by another. It's needless, and since Anti-TCC will be replaced with something less capable, it's also harmful.

I think I've said this three times now, so this is the last post I'm going to make on the subject.

[legacy--Sasuke-]

Originally posted by psh1ft
Again, your ideas about administration seem a little naïve. The majority of players have no idea they can contact an admin, no idea how to make a demo (let alone submit it).

Your comments about Anti-TCC are about how it doesn't do the job it was intended to do. That's negativity, no matter how calmly stated, no matter how constructive you feel it is.

Anti-TCC could be a 0 kb placeholder that does nothing, but people will still want it. People still want cheat protection, no matter how useless. In light of this your negativity, no matter how constructive, has only removed one thing to be replaced by another. It's needless, and since Anti-TCC will be replaced with something less capable, it's also harmful.

I think I've said this three times now, so this is the last post I'm going to make on the subject.

A difference of opinion doesn't make what i say negative.

If players don't know they can contact an admin (quite easy on any decent server.. via email, IM, or irc - we should inform them that they can, and that it's easy. someone started a thread about how to deal with botters, and it was something along the lines of what i posted)

Because a program has become useless, and I harmlessly pointed it out, my opinion is now negative? I'm not trying to diss anyone or anything... do any harm, I'm just stating things the way i see it... and doing so in a polite manner. I think anyone who has been in the ut scene has seen that atcc really can't stop much, and it's sad. Honestly, I wish atcc caught every single cheater that ever installed ut, but it's just not going to happen, so lets think of alternatives. 1 is the UTAN system. Global cheat bans. Good idea imo. Another way is to record demos (not hard at all, for those that dont know, demorec "demo name", then email it to your friendly neighborhood admin)

I think you are being a little bit irrational concerning the issue, but since your done, i'm done. We have both proven valid points, now other can read them and decide for themselves.

[Spaz]

Originally posted by Abilio_KID
Spaz007, who hates AntiTCC?

Now you know

[Shambler]

I'm not suprised to see the same old AntiTCC hating regulars jump at the opportunity of another chance to join the flame.


What is the point in continuing this bull$hit thread when everybody is just voicing the same never-ending argument's as the last thread about AntiTCC....What is everyone here contributing to the community? F-all.
You can be guaranteed that this thread will continue the same course of the last AntiTCC thread.

No matter the number arguments (however valid) in defense of AntiTCC the one's that hate that mod the most will keep this flame alight in spite of all reason.

[legacy-KCP]

I admin my server alot, but i still run antitcc and utan.

By the way for all of you antitcc haters. if u cant not paly on servers that dont run it just a thought....GET YOUR OWN SERVER AND CONFIGURE IT HOW U WANT. I hope all you haters burn in hell.

[legacy--Twista-]

Originally posted by KCP
I admin my server alot, but i still run antitcc and utan.

By the way for all of you antitcc haters. if u cant not paly on servers that dont run it just a thought....GET YOUR OWN SERVER AND CONFIGURE IT HOW U WANT. I hope all you haters burn in hell.


I´m pretty sure I don´t want to play on your server :up:

[legacy-KCP]

Good then. Ill be sure to add u to my UTAN ban list. :p

[legacy--Twista-]

Originally posted by KCP
Good then. Ill be sure to add u to my UTAN ban list. :p

HF finding out my GUID.

[legacy-Turbidity]

Originally posted by KCP
Good then. Ill be sure to add u to my UTAN ban list. :p Congratulations on completely missing the point of UTAN.

[legacy-KCP]

Actually its completey valid under the annoyance ban field :p

[legacy-te®m]

Originally posted by KCP
Actually its completey valid under the annoyance ban field :p

Dont let that power go to your head, good luck with your empty server :up:

[legacy-KCP]

Heh my FO server is full for about 14 hours of the day.

The other modes are full too.

I am a great admin. This is going to be my last post. This thread wont die and the situation will just get worse. If you dont like a server either contact the admin or simply leave. If the admin wants to run AntiTCC so be it. the fact is, even after antitcc is long gone. you will just convert your *****ing to the next mutator or feature. A never ending cycle.

If you dont like AntiTCC good dont use it and stay away from it. Dont start another F**king thread to piss on it.

If anyone needs a clan and are good at Ctf, iCTF, or TDM sign up for =DF= Design-Flaw at http://design-flaw.4x2.net/

[legacy--Twista-]

Originally posted by KCP
I am a great admin.



No you´re not.


Originally posted by KCP

If anyone needs a clan and are good at Ctf, iCTF, or TDM sign up for =DF= Design-Flaw at http://design-flaw.4x2.net/

Yeah, who wouldn´t want to join a clan with such a leader :rolleyes:

and your server is running great:

Name
TIMEOUT
IP
24.94.114.27:7777
Game
Unreal Tournament 2004
Type
Map
down
OS
Players


Yay for down servers. And I´d really like to know how you want to have copyright on a free template :rolleyes:

[legacy-KCP]

U dont know me. Judge yourself before u judge someone else.

[legacy--Twista-]

Originally posted by KCP
I am a great admin. This is going to be my last post.


No you´re not. The bs you posted here proofes it.
And you´re a liar.

[legacy-KCP]

I dont give a crap wat u think.

[legacy--Twista-]

Originally posted by KCP
I dont give a damn wat u think. I like how you always return after you posted that that was your last post.

[Magwa]

Originally posted by psh1ft
Sasuke; the paranoia element was aimed at Magwa who all but accused me of being so - the rest was for you.

Do you not agree that some form or cheat protection is better than none at all? Failing that, do you not agree that some will always want it? Further, do you not agree that there will always be something to replace Anti-TCC, or whatever the most prevalent form of cheat protection there is?

As it stands we've lost Anti-TCC cuz of people like you, forcing admins to look to inferior, more problematic mutators to fulfill the role of cheat protection, which obviously many feel is needed.

You see your negativity achieves nothing - you're just pissing in the wind - even if you do have some valid points to make.

Since it was aimed at me i will respond .i never cry aimbot and i could care less about them because the servers i play on police themselves and just simply ban them end of problem .I have seen total 2 botters and mabye 3 speedhacks since day one of this version 2k4.

when the game came out there were lots of servers that played wellgood pings and good games ,then add anti tcc and ut comp and alot of other usless stuff and what have you got lag city.now i am not against anti cheat programs i am aginst them if they further ruin gameplay at the expence of a few low life cheaters,and that is what Anti Tcc has done. People put it on the servers and think ok i am now protected BS it lasts but a day or two and it also gives the cheaters attention which is what they crave anyway.

Ignore them and they will go away and for the few that simply are in it for the hacking they are so few as to be of no problem if you just pay attention to your server.

I am no noob at this game having played since day one of Unreal demo, and the game is just deteriating from this parinod way of dealing with cheaters now if the shoe fits wear it if not then try to get people to understand we need a game that plays well with as little of outside influence as possible.

[Shambler]

I had just spent a good amount of time writing up a post in response to Magwa about how neccessary cheat protections are and more crap which has been discussed before in the other AntiTCC threads but I think it's better just to repost what I said at the end of my last message:

Originally posted by [6pk]Shambler
No matter the number arguments (however valid) in defense of AntiTCC the one's that hate that mod the most will keep this flame alight in spite of all reason.

This thread is pointless:down:

[Magwa]

Originally posted by [6pk]Shambler
I had just spent a good amount of time writing up a post in response to Magwa about how neccessary cheat protections are and more crap which has been discussed before in the other AntiTCC threads but I think it's better just to repost what I said at the end of my last message:


This thread is pointless:down:

I agree with you if that is all you have to say.it further leads me to believe that you have no arguments with my points ..and that you have nothing to say that would prove otherwise...

1 has anti Tcc helped or hurt the game?

2 who's responsibility is cheat protection?ours or the game maker?

3 is aimbotting so rampant that you would degrade the gameplay for sake of cheat protection by a few low lifes?

4 would you give up custom content to have anti cheat protection?

[legacy-Abilio_KID]

I had the feeling this was going to come down to some sort of fight between users and eventually it did. It was not my intention and I though it could go well considering the first page of replies when nobody flamed anyone.
I've been thinking about this issue, specially for instaggibers like me and I can come to a small conclusion:
If the server has AntiTCC badly configured then we'll all get game lag, the one that stutters from all the checkings. It's not Wormbo's fault and I never said it was.
If AntiTCC is well configured and we get this packet loss out of nowhere than it may a small lack of CPU power. I think that when the checks are being made, the game gives more attention to them than the receiving/sending of packets. Eventually some will be lost. With new powerfull PC's and ping smaller than 50 you won't notice it. Unfortunently some of us have not so recent rigs and pings average 80-100 (+-).
Following that, the game is giving many issues to many players and altough it's not related to AntiTCC or any other cheat protection it may add to all that.
Cheats are still made possible and will always be a challenge to someone without anything better to do. For example, I'm not a coder and I can make an external triggerbot with just a few lines of code. AntiTCC won't even know about it and no bright skins are needed. If you're asking yourself if I use it then forget about it. It's actually slower than manually pointing and clicking and not very accurate. Just check around if I happen to own anyone online:bulb:. The point is that it's easy to bypass the protection.
For some reason I'm replying with lists:weird:.
Argh... I forgot what I was about to say (actually write) next...
I just had a very hard day of work. I'm not even sure if I'm going to play today.
If this topic gets out of hand then I'm sorry and I'll close it if you prefer.

[legacy-Riffage]

People stating that they have only seen x aimbotters since playing UT2004 does'nt really mean much due to influence. If you knew AntiTCC stopped the public aimbots would you even try to use one on a server protected by AntiTCC? No, course you would'nt that would be stupid. So when people say that cheating isnt big in UT2004 is because the risks now are become too high and detection is almost probable.

The consequences of cheating are becoming too high, and I believe that the cheaters now realise this and stay away from popular protected servers.

[Magwa]

Originally posted by Rif***e
People stating that they have only seen x aimbotters since playing UT2004 does'nt really mean much due to influence. If you knew AntiTCC stopped the public aimbots would you even try to use one on a server protected by AntiTCC? No, course you would'nt that would be stupid. So when people say that cheating isnt big in UT2004 is because the risks now are become too high and detection is almost probable.

The consequences of cheating are becoming too high, and I believe that the cheaters now realise this and stay away from popular protected servers.

Good theory but think about it if they are hackers they already have alot of cd keys and their whole world revolves around beating anti TCC so yes in fact the ones i have seen were on anti tcc servers i have only seen one on any server withoust anti tcc they are out to beat the system that is what their thing is and i do not believe their is any thing to stop them so just let them be and they will fade away when it is no longer fun and server admins can ban them when they see them .there is no fun for them to have their bot on a unprotected server where is the challenge in that?

[legacy-Riffage]

Originally posted by Magwa
Good theory but think about it if they are hackers they already have alot of cd keys I'm talking about the people who just go and download them, not the ones who create them. The ones who create the cheats are the ones with lots of cdkeys.

[Magwa]

Originally posted by Rif***e
I'm talking about the people who just go and download them, not the ones who create them. The ones who create the cheats are the ones with lots of cdkeys.

ok i got ya and i agree for the average player to risk his or her cd key is not going to happen much...but my point has always been what cost do we have to pay to obtain this level of cheat protection? if it is at the expence of gameplay then IMO it is not worth it and all it has done for me is cut by 2/3rds the number of servers i can play on.

[legacy-Gaal Dornik]

Magwa
like said, AntiTCC is not aimed to fight the cheats, but the cheat users. An extremely cautiousness and clever user will probably be able to cheat, but cheaters arent smart else they would not cheat, therefore they grab the first available, detectable, bot, or cheat on server with new version of AntiTCC, or simple dont check when a new one is released and get caught on an usual server, or forget to remove the trails.. and cheats leave some.. there are other possibilities i would better not mention and sooner or later it catches them all. And they have only one life due to GUID and partly to UTAN.



Originally posted by -Sasuke-
Botters (few and far between, if you think otherwise your an idiot) bot for 2 reasons.

1. They suck at ut
2. They like to piss people off
Oww again you prove you have no idea what youre talking about and that you have zero tolerance against other opinions. Its almost too easy to jump on you, like taking a candy from a baby :cry: :D

The fatal on cheats is that they destroy fair play and competitive play. Real cheaters might be very good actually, and still cheat, to win with all means. Pissing ppl off?? who cares.

[legacy--Sasuke-]

Originally posted by Magwa
1 has anti Tcc helped or hurt the game?

neither. It hasn't stopped botters but it hasn't done anything really but a slight lag here or there (for me)

2 who's responsibility is cheat protection?ours or the game maker?

admins :> like you said you play well policed servers. and that's the best way to stop botting.

3 is aimbotting so rampant that you would degrade the gameplay for sake of cheat protection by a few low lifes?

no, that has been my main point, botting isnt rampant


4 would you give up custom content to have anti cheat protection? i've only been kicked for 3 things, a skin, a voicepack, and a model... and there should have been no reason for the kick, but i just found another server


:heart:

[legacy--Sasuke-]

Originally posted by Gaal Dornik
Magwa
like said, AntiTCC is not aimed to fight the cheats, but the cheat users. An extremely cautiousness and clever user will probably be able to cheat, but cheaters arent smart else they would not cheat, therefore they grab the first available, detectable, bot, or cheat on server with new version of AntiTCC, or simple dont check when a new one is released and get caught on an usual server, or forget to remove the trails.. and cheats leave some.. there are other possibilities i would better not mention and sooner or later it catches them all. And they have only one life due to GUID and partly to UTAN.



Oww again you prove you have no idea what youre talking about and that you have zero tolerance against other opinions. Its almost too easy to jump on you, like taking a candy from a baby :cry: :D

The fatal on cheats is that they destroy fair play and competitive play. Real cheaters might be very good actually, and still cheat, to win with all means. Pissing ppl off?? who cares.

Please quit forum stalking me. There isn't much botting going on.

[legacy-SonicBlaster200]

Originally posted by Spaz007
I hope as this thread grows you will see why I posted what I did. :sour:

BTW I never had any lag. I only knew it was checking my HD because of the big yellow letters on the screen.

I'm sorry spaz, your one sided, and I've got the chance to meet with your former clan-mate "Yeochins" who I say is pretty impressive at any rate, but he seems very pressed on time.

Anyways, how it works, the differences between every single machine is astronomical, no one machine is the same, no one machine is rigged entirely the same (Even if its being built at a factory thats producing the same type of machine they will still all be different, its the subtle differences in all of technology that makes each one unique as you or I.) Some machines use hyper-accellerated data routing, when you start to get lag from disk checks then overall your performance degradades.

Yes, you can call me an AntiTCC hater, for that is what I am. Wormbo tried to help the community in a futile cause, a pointless cause, one that ultimately lead this community into a state of raging wars, inbetween accusing (which happens with or without antiTCC, or any other anti-cheat measures), the debates about anti-TCC, the complaints about its effect on the gameplay of some users, etc. Who do I point to in the end? Wormbo. Why? simply because after all the analysis I've done in the past months its lead me to this peticular conclusion including everything, cheaters, gamers, the community, server admins, complaints, problems, worry's, etc.

I do a lot of analysis work in my every-day job, and when we analyse events, problems, and all the stuff management has to do, we get to the "source."

Now personally Anti-Cheat measures are possibly the worst pieces of technology you can possibly create, simply because they will always be bypassed, its only a matter of time. What drives hackers, crackers, developers, etc, is the thrill of the challenge. Crackers have a blast trying to decode or dissassemble corporate programs to create the popular "keygens" or "patches" you see online today. Hackers have a thrill getting into highly protected systems. Now Cheat developers have a blast comming up with bypasses to new anti cheat features.

Basically with technology anythings possible. I myself am personally happy to see Wormbo stop the further productions in his anti-cheat programs. That way these so called "cheats" stop at only aimbots. Personally its only a matter or time before someone invents a "invisible hack" or a "ghost hack", etc. All technological measures can be circumvented.

The war:

Cheat Developers Make Cheats...
Public looser uses Cheats...
Makes users paranoid...
One guy begins developing a cheat program...
Cheat developers circumvent the cheat program...

Now the loop

Public loosers use the new cheat making the new cheat public...
Anti Cheat Developer patches the circumvention method...
Users still paranoid...
Cheat Developers circumvent the new patch....


The loop continues untill basically the anti-cheat developer gives up. You must face it, the cheat developers are far more talented in the area of software development/circumvention, and have more people, resources at their desposal.

The power to circumvent will always be greater then the power to patch, and that will always be a ringing fact. No matter what arguements you can throw at me, it wont make a difference, because that is the fact, its not going to change.



People who move forward with anti-cheat software are just entheusiasts who cannot see what the effects of their "war" is having on the community. Wormbo did clean up antiTCC a little in the 113,114,116(some) versions. But ultimately he was foolish to ever advance this war.

Sad fact of the game of life: There will always be cheaters, but to invent ways to catch them or stop them is foolish, because they will come back with new methods.

I dont like cheaters, but I dont like those who try to stop them either. Its a war that only reaps disaster on those stuck inbetween or around.

[Magwa]

Originally posted by SonicBlaster200
I'm sorry spaz, your one sided, and I've got the chance to meet with your former clan-mate "Yeochins" who I say is pretty impressive at any rate, but he seems very pressed on time.



<.snipped for space<>

I agree with you 100% it is a no win battle and it is only causeing us the players problems.

Gaal Dornik<> again no one seems to want to answer my questions what cost are you willing to pay?

[legacy-Xipher]

Originally posted by Magwa
Gaal Dornik<> again no one seems to want to answer my questions what cost are you willing to pay?
Personally, I can deal with the lag like I did today on one server, and got the second Highest score in the match (it was CTF, I was in the lead by 1 point for a short while)
Now, if some person had jumped on with some sort of cheat, be it any sort of bot or other enhancement, I would have said screw it, and started to spec them. The server was running AntiTCC final. So, I am willing to give up some lag problems (and I mean it was pretty bad, I have a demo of it if you like) but I can deal.

[nighty]

I've been running and admining UT servers for 3 years now. The fact of the matter is that pro cheaters will cheat, no matter what the protection scheme. The die hard, serious scumback loser cheaters will always get though with private hacks. AntiTCC and other similar protections stop 90% of the script kiddie morons, and that's a good thing. The other 10% have to be admin'ed off the server by active intervention.

I love ATCC, and am very sorry Wormbo gave up on it. :sour:

[Spaz]

Originally posted by SonicBlaster200
I'm sorry spaz, your one sided, and I've got the chance to meet with your former clan-mate "Yeochins" who I say is pretty impressive at any rate, but he seems very pressed on time.

I am one sided but I said that so this thread wouldn't end up 8 pages long and getting no where but a long flame war for a already dead project. But Plz don't beat a dead horse.

I never cared about cheats in till I started my own server for a few months. You be surprised who and how many pop up in your AntiTCC logs as a Aimbotter.

[Magwa]

Originally posted by Xipher
Personally, I can deal with the lag like I did today on one server, and got the second Highest score in the match (it was CTF, I was in the lead by 1 point for a short while)
Now, if some person had jumped on with some sort of cheat, be it any sort of bot or other enhancement, I would have said screw it, and started to spec them. The server was running AntiTCC final. So, I am willing to give up some lag problems (and I mean it was pretty bad, I have a demo of it if you like) but I can deal.

Just curious did you have a low ping and it was still playable? as i have said before my ping is between 90 and 110 and it is unplayable for me ,yet a server without Anti Tcc i can play with 160 ping ......just curious

[legacy-Saito]

the problem is the people *****ing about cheats.

I would bet most people crying about BOTS, haven't actualy encountered one.

Let me be straight, I know people who have bot'ed, I know people who do bot. They don't run around looking for servers without antiTCC, because then its no fun, to them the fun is getting past security, if they can do it, they had their fun and leave.

Also there isn't some mass movement of cheaters out to ruin this game. I play in situations against people that can nail you virtualy everytime, it's called skill. There are lots of skilled players that show up on pubs aliased, there are all most no botters out to bot up servers.

You are also aware that your paranoia about bots really makes it worse. By constantly mentioning it, and creating fixes to problems that don't exist you are encouraging people to cheat, and the cheating community to play the game. While at the same time beating the crap out of legit players who want to use custom content.

People need to stop defending a program that does nothing. It's like the nightlite you had when you were a kid. It didn't get rid of the monster under your bed, because there never was one to begin with.
:rolleyes:

[legacy-Gaal Dornik]

Magwa
Im pinging 30-40ms to most servers and feel no lag whatsoever. Playing on Flaks server was no different to me except of the delay due to higher ping, so the only prize i see is 10secs checks at the beginning and 1 check during death sometimes :confused: _Maybe_ its cause NBS server is simply great, and not due to non installed AntiTCC. Try some EU k-play servers.sure youll get high ping, but they all have very good performance, and atcc too.

All
Its no dead horse at all. First there will always be one anticheat around somehow. And second from what i got from Wormbo's forum, he idd stopped AntiTCC development, but he said that that does not mean he has stopped anti cheat development :noob: and probably is working on a better one now.

Saito
Its quite simple: ppl cheat in UT99, ppl cheat in CounterStrike. now what does make UT2k4 different, cause its same ppl playing this game too. :D

[legacy-Jertsy]

I have had similer lag problems... My ping never went up above 50 - 60, but it kept spiking from 50 - 20, or say 60 - 30. This left playing Ig impossible to the least.

Its seems through testing that this only happens in ut2004 IG. Having played Ig for about three years now I can honestly say the netcode/lag has never been sooo bad... It could be AntiTCC, who knows.. But its a game-stopper for sure. Its not ISP/Net Settings related, its this game...

I have become in-active in my clan, yeah for other reasons, but when your playing great (Lag free) your less likey to hang up your spurs....

I hope some dev, or someone, has a good look at the whole IG lag thang, its turning people away from the game!!!


Jertz

[legacy-Gaal Dornik]

Rofl just played on an non AntiTCC server for testing purposes and what i see - 2 aimbots playing and i got accused as well :haha: :sour: So far to absence of botters in ut2k4.

[legacy-MonsterMadness]

Originally posted by Gaal Dornik
Rofl just played on an non AntiTCC server for testing purposes and what i see - 2 aimbots playing and i got accused as well :haha: :sour: So far to absence of botters in ut2k4.

Well if u WEREN'T cheating then u got wrongly accused. Who's to say u weren't wrongly accusing them, hmmm?

[legacy-Gaal Dornik]

Originally posted by MonsterMadness
Well if u WEREN'T cheating then u got wrongly accused. Who's to say u weren't wrongly accusing them, hmmm?
how about he had
-tripple the score the next person had
-zero reaction time
-kills 5 ppl w/o missing a shot in a 360 area
-calling the name of the bot to find
-names himself "aimbotter" :)

he was pretty convincing :D

[legacy-SonicBlaster200]

Originally posted by Gaal Dornik
Magwa
Im pinging 30-40ms to most servers and feel no lag whatsoever. Playing on Flaks server was no different to me except of the delay due to higher ping, so the only prize i see is 10secs checks at the beginning and 1 check during death sometimes :confused: _Maybe_ its cause NBS server is simply great, and not due to non installed AntiTCC. Try some EU k-play servers.sure youll get high ping, but they all have very good performance, and atcc too.

All
Its no dead horse at all. First there will always be one anticheat around somehow. And second from what i got from Wormbo's forum, he idd stopped AntiTCC development, but he said that that does not mean he has stopped anti cheat development :noob: and probably is working on a better one now.

Saito
Its quite simple: ppl cheat in UT99, ppl cheat in CounterStrike. now what does make UT2k4 different, cause its same ppl playing this game too. :D

Yes, the classic phrase, what makes Unreal Tournament different? simple, because unreal tournament is in a position where many of its members are willing to change. With the discontinued AntiTCC, and the announcement from ELF that they are going to release an aimbot thats going to surpass all the securety countermeasures the war all comes to an end.

1. Server admins will realise their AntiTCC is useless and remove it.
2. The community will stop being punished for its effects on groups of people.
3. The paranoid people will still be paranoid, you cant stop them since they are just immature kids who shouldn't have owned the game in the first place. If you read the documentary on the "Tween short form" you will undoubtably realize most of the people on the servers who accuse people of cheating are aged 8-14.
4. ELF will stop producing more cheats unless to further improve their aimbots.
5. It will leave the game open, but at least nobody else who develops cheats from other games will know about unreal tournament, since there is no fun creating cheats for a game with no securety.

What makes CS different? Well the developers have a better challenge at creating hacks then here. Here I know of only 4 cheats, and 3 or 4 anti cheat measures (one of which has been discontinued, thank god)

ELF/HelioS Aimbots
Zellius Aimbot
HelioS Radar
and Speed Hack(s)

AntiTCC
SafeGame
UTSecure
UTPure

The less anti cheat stuff we have, the less noticible UT is in the "underground" community, meaning the less cheat developers we will have.

[legacy-Riffage]

Originally posted by SonicBlaster200
1. Server admins will realise their AntiTCC is useless and remove it. I have to severly disagree with that statement, just because the newest private/public aimbot may get round it doesnt mean than its useless. Im still catching people everyday on my servers for using the first aimbot that came out. So I won't be ditching an anti-cheat program anytime soon, I may switch to SafeGame, but I won't leave my servers deviod of anti-cheat protection.

[legacy--Sasuke-]

Originally posted by Gaal Dornik
how about he had
-tripple the score the next person had
-zero reaction time
-kills 5 ppl w/o missing a shot in a 360 area
-calling the name of the bot to find
-names himself "aimbotter" :)

he was pretty convincing :D

pretty convienient this happens as you argue in the atcc thread..

gonna have to go ahead and call bs on this one, unless you have some demos? or even screens?

[legacy-Gaal Dornik]

SonicBlaster200
With that logic there would be no cheating in other games cause they also have same conditions, even worse, i.e. fully open for cheats. Still ppl cheat there and same ppl cheat in ut2k4.

Looks like we see the point of AntTCC in different ways. For me its purpose is not to catch the cheats, but user mistakes. And botters will sooner or later make one, just like thieves who sooner or later make a mistake and wander into a global ban list, erm i mean to jail :D Therefore: a. AntiTCC is needed and b. does its work well, despite the availability of better bots. The results are clearly seen as the significant lower number of bots in ut2k4. Its the combination of serverside hit detection, GUID and AntiTCC (and UTAN) which makes ut2k4 particulary cheat resistant.

-Sasuke-
Erm i thought you had me on ignore. plz do.

[legacy--Sasuke-]

Originally posted by Saito
the problem is the people *****ing about cheats.

I would bet most people crying about BOTS, haven't actualy encountered one.

Let me be straight, I know people who have bot'ed, I know people who do bot. They don't run around looking for servers without antiTCC, because then its no fun, to them the fun is getting past security, if they can do it, they had their fun and leave.

Also there isn't some mass movement of cheaters out to ruin this game. I play in situations against people that can nail you virtualy everytime, it's called skill. There are lots of skilled players that show up on pubs aliased, there are all most no botters out to bot up servers.

You are also aware that your paranoia about bots really makes it worse. By constantly mentioning it, and creating fixes to problems that don't exist you are encouraging people to cheat, and the cheating community to play the game. While at the same time beating the crap out of legit players who want to use custom content.

People need to stop defending a program that does nothing. It's like the nightlite you had when you were a kid. It didn't get rid of the monster under your bed, because there never was one to begin with.
:rolleyes:

:up: exactly

And Gaal, you are on ignore, but there is a handy feature that lets me read your individual spam, if needed.

[legacy-Gaal Dornik]

Originally posted by -Sasuke-
:up: exactly

And Gaal, you are on ignore, but there is a handy feature that lets me read your individual spam, if needed.
Thx god, pls restrain yourself from using this feature too often :up: Never thought E-thugs do really exist. :D

[legacy-KCP]

Ok just a thought. U all say AntiTC lags and it does alittle. but then u say u have demos of it. Could it possibly be the DEMO RECORDING LAGGING you? Just a thought :confused:

[legacy--Sasuke-]

Originally posted by KCP
Ok just a thought. U all say AntiTC lags and it does alittle. but then u say u have demos of it. Could it possibly be the DEMO RECORDING LAGGING you? Just a thought :confused:

It only lags me while it's checking, like it does everyone else. I'm not sure about any lag other than that. That's not what i was arguing :>

[Shambler]

Originally posted by Magwa
I agree with you if that is all you have to say.it further leads me to believe that you have no arguments with my points ..and that you have nothing to say that would prove otherwise...

lol, that is one idiotic assumption.

I have plenty of arguments against your points (most which have been argued over in the other threads), you completely missed the point in my post.

The point being: you (among others) will continue the SAME (invalid/disproven) arguments about AntiTCC in spite of them being argued over and nullified in the other threads.


Your only apparent purpose here is feeding the flames in this topic, I see the same names with the same arguments as before continuing the SAME huge flame about AntiTCC.




Very very few people here have ANY experience with cheats or protections (and seeing/dealing with or even using some aimbots a couple of times does not mean you know a lot), by experience I mean real dirty work with code to see how everything works and/or seeing how aimbots affect a community without any protection.

For the people making the cheats it's not simply about breaking protection it's about ruining the game for fun, if there was no constantly updated protection then there would be a hell of a lot of cheating going on.

[Shambler]

AntiTCC isn't the only protection joe and it also hasn't been out of service long. (and last time I checked Wormbo was looking for someone to continue work on it for him)

[Magwa]

Originally posted by [6pk]Shambler
lol, that is one idiotic assumption.

I have plenty of arguments against your points (most which have been argued over in the other threads), you completely missed the point in my post.

The point being: you (among others) will continue the SAME (invalid/disproven) arguments about AntiTCC in spite of them being argued over and nullified in the other threads.


Your only apparent purpose here is feeding the flames in this topic, I see the same names with the same arguments as before continuing the SAME huge flame about AntiTCC.






LOL you say i am just feeding the flames yet you are the one calling my point idiotic??? Hmmmm seems like the kettle calling the pot black. invalid??? disproven??? what part about it does not allow custom content do you not understand?

I am only kicked from Anti TCC servers because of my UT99 voice pack how does that make sence when the creators of the game give you a editor and then a contest to make custom content? no you sir have your hat on backwards and are only seeing in one direction.

never mind the lag it creates and never mind the countless versions needed to catch a botter how about the custom content question that you seem unable or unwilling to answer?

you wrote this not me Quote<> This thread is pointless<>end quote you forgot IMO.....

[Shambler]

Joe:
Safegame is still in beta form and is still being tested, if nobody takes up work on AntiTCC and if no other protection is made SafeGame will develop it's features and become AntiTCC's successor.

Magwa:
I have not forgotten what I said and I also still stand in defense of AntiTCC.


On your points about custom content you continue to ignore that AntiTCC can be configured to ALLOW for all of it, read the last thread about this $hit and you will find all the neccessary information.
There were lengthy discussions between us and many others on how AntiTCC can be configured to suit ALL your points.

If you want to complain next that most admins are too lazy to change their settings like you said before (even tho the settings neccessary for this are in one of the default .ini files) then don't bother because (and let me emphasise this) that's up to the server admins and is not a fault of AntiTCC.

As for lag, that is another argument repeated many times and SETTLED in the last few threads, this is also configurable. It has also been settled before that the "countless versions" (180k of our download time, boo hoo) are neccessary to keep up with the bots.


As I said these arguments have been discussed, raped, beaten, buggered and settled in past threads about AntiTCC....Your insistence on repeating these arguments while happily ignoring the past threads only serves to light up old flames.

[legacy--Sasuke-]

If atcc (and other anti hack programs) become useless in less than a week, what good does it do? I'm not complaining about the lag (not much lag, just at the beginning and midgame checks), but what is atcc going to do for us being on every server, when it's outdated a few hours after release?

If anyone can answer that, they win :>

(i'm not anti-atcc or something, but it is basically useless)

[Shambler]

It's indeed outdated but it still catches a LOT of people cheating atm, some people mentioned it before in this thread:


Originally posted by Rif***e
just because the newest private/public aimbot may get round it doesnt mean than its useless. Im still catching people everyday on my servers for using the first aimbot that came out. So I won't be ditching an anti-cheat program anytime soon, I may switch to SafeGame, but I won't leave my servers deviod of anti-cheat protection.

So even tho the tools may get bypassed they still catch a good portion of cheaters.

EDIT: That's pretty much how things have been going since the start of UT2k4.

[legacy-Saito]

Fact, I know people that bot and love to do so. They love antiTCC, and they love working around it. That's what they find fun. Fact they do no play on servers without protection because then whats the point?

Fact antiTCC doesn't make the game safe. Fact in order to set it at a moderately decent level of protection, you have to block allot of custom content, and it will cause lag.

What I find so f-ing hillarious is all the "omg a botter, lets get aniTCC" threads by no talent ass clowns, who are worried about the boogey man. I on the other hand know some jokers who bot, and I don't run into bots at nearly the rate you fools do.:confused:

AntiTCC is taking the aproach of amputating the arm because your finger is infected. It's a small infection and it doesn't really matter, it doesn't warrent this kind of response.

The problem is the horde of chicken littles running around trying to fix problems that aren't there.

And for the record shambler, the arguement has never stopped. You continue to ignore facts, and just keep defending antiTCC because it "fixes something".

I have an anti-elephant whistle, I use it once a day and it keeps the elephants away. I had never seen an elephant while I was blowing my whistle so it must be working. Then one day I saw an elephant at the zoo... so I bought an anti elephant fog horn and blast that once a day. It might piss off all the neighbors, but it sure as hell keeps me safe from all the evil elephants in washington DC.

[Shambler]

lol, very bad analogies Saito.

You would propose we play this game without any cheat protection?
Well then, take that up with the server admins too.

[legacy--Sasuke-]

Originally posted by Saito
Fact, I know people that bot and love to do so. They love antiTCC, and they love working around it. That's what they find fun. Fact they do no play on servers without protection because then whats the point?

Fact antiTCC doesn't make the game safe. Fact in order to set it at a moderately decent level of protection, you have to block allot of custom content, and it will cause lag.

What I find so f-ing hillarious is all the "omg a botter, lets get aniTCC" threads by no talent ass clowns, who are worried about the boogey man. I on the other hand know some jokers who bot, and I don't run into bots at nearly the rate you fools do.:confused:

AntiTCC is taking the aproach of amputating the arm because your finger is infected. It's a small infection and it doesn't really matter, it doesn't warrent this kind of response.

The problem is the horde of chicken littles running around trying to fix problems that aren't there.

And for the record shambler, the arguement has never stopped. You continue to ignore facts, and just keep defending antiTCC because it "fixes something".

I have an anti-elephant whistle, I use it once a day and it keeps the elephants away. I had never seen an elephant while I was blowing my whistle so it must be working. Then one day I saw an elephant at the zoo... so I bought an anti elephant fog horn and blast that once a day. It might piss off all the neighbors, but it sure as hell keeps me safe from all the evil elephants in washington DC.

No matter how many times we show them valid points against the use (not against the idea of cheat protection, but trying to at this point) of atcc, they're set in their ways. Or they like to argue alot. There will never be a better way to protect your server than to have an array of admins that police the server well. (not saying 24/7, but haveing admins that can be reached at some point in the day -- send demos! or if they happen to be online at the time via irc, IM's, or ingame -- talk to them and show them the cheater, then ban!)

edit: shambler, admins are supposed to keep their servers well kept, if you don't want to police the server, get lazy and use atcc (psst, which really doesn't stop aimbots.....)

not to say all admins are lazy or have the time , but running a server isn't exactly a cakewalk. So, an admin should be able to be contacted daily (good servers).

[legacy-Saito]

I have, and I know several good servers with no antiTCC. I ping fine on them, and have a blast. They are run by people I know.

There are some very skilled players on there, from good clans. And nobody bots, if somebody did they would be found out fast, and since I know the admins, I am sure I could just find them in IRC and have the guy busted, banned and spread the ID.

As for our (my clans) servers. They are locked, but the passwords are public. We run safe game turned pretty much all the way down. Don't have a problem with botters either. Safe game is better than antiTCC, it only lags a bit in the beggining (which I spend in utcomp warm up). To be honest I think this is overkill because our servers are really only used by us and people we know. But since it's hassle free oh well.

Most clans have an IRC chan, and usualy there is somebody there. If I saw a botter on any server, I would know where to go and who to ask, and who to send a demo to directly. That's admining, it's not just on the admins, it's on the players as well.

[Shambler]

Originally posted by -Sasuke-
No matter how many times we show them valid points against the use (not against the idea of cheat protection, but trying to at this point) of atcc, they're set in their ways.

Strange..that is exactly the point I was stateing upon people constantly complaining about AntiTCC only today eh?

I have not ignored ANY points made against AntiTCC, I have done my best to explain the faults in those points.

[Shambler]

Saito:
Good for you, servers you play on don't use AntiTCC and you have no problems with bots..great...so why are you complaining?
Admins know (or should know) the deal when it comes to running cheat protections on their server so if they decide to run them and you don't like them (the protections...for whatever reason) just avoid their servers.

[legacy-JP{420}]

Ahhhhh yes.....Anti-TCC.

My .02 cents on it not that it matters....

Wormbo: You f*cking rock for bustin out Anti-TCC. I was running 23 servers and didn't have problems with your program. Only complaint was all the upgrades and having to edit 23 ini files. I know there's an easier way to do that, but it's on me not you.

I'm sorry to hear about u throwing in the towel, but seriously can't blame you. Anti-cheat coding is a b*tch and a half.
I will continue to use Anti-TCC because cheaters suck, and I haven't seen any lag except upon initial connection to a server. Weigh it out like some dope and that's a dam good deal. 5-10 second choppy up front rather than some ***tard wall hacking or non-stop headshots.....hmmmm....I like that deal.

Fellow admins/gamers: I'll never be able to stop the top notch hacks or hackers which has been accepted. Just the lame bottom feeder wannabe hackers that wish they had real hack skillz. So props to all the top coders out there may it be hack or anti-hack.

[legacy--Sasuke-]

Originally posted by JP{420}


Fellow admins/gamers: I'll never be able to stop the top notch hacks or hackers which has been accepted. Just the lame bottom feeder wannabe hackers that wish they had real hack skillz. So props to all the top coders out there may it be hack or anti-hack.

This is the best thing i've seen from someone pro-atcc :> not to say i'm not all for it, but it's just not needed imo. good stuff man

[legacy-SonicBlaster200]

Originally posted by [6pk]Shambler
lol, very bad analogies Saito.

You would propose we play this game without any cheat protection?
Well then, take that up with the server admins too.

No very good analogies, you are the one at fault, since you never take time to realize how everything works and mingles with eachother. Although there is nothing we can much do to show you how useless anti TCC is, and Saitio is right, hackers, and cheaters just love to bypass securety.

Yes I would, the only place cheat protection gets you is to the point where you have many cheat developers trying to bypass your securety. You think HelioS and Zellius are the people who run the operation for every game? No I can name hundreds of developers, such as Phreaky Mike the Gunbound Aimbot creator, Virus - Creator of Shot Track for Gunbound, Frank the creator of several game hacks mostly bots and invisible hacks for Counter Strike, Gunbound, and BattleField. There is alot of other people who I do not give their due to.

But what it comes down to is an all out war. I've been watching frank for a long time, since we are the datacenter who hosts his alleged cheat site, forums and network. He never really took an interest into hacking "gunbound" untill they released their "nProtect GameGuard", ever since then the war has been going on longer then Unreal Tournament 2004's existed. They've come up with ways to fake MD5 Check Sums, Inject code into the memory, Fake download servers, exploit small holes, rewrite the entire GameGuard system, stop it from ever initializing, terminating the threads that perform the checks, fake the data being sent, and a whole lot more.

Personally I believe these developers are far more skilled then HelioS will ever be, and if AntiTCC became so loud its word got around to other games, we might as well kiss this game good bye, since you'll see some of these developers busting out works that not even the Programmers at EPIC could solve in a weeks time.

Never start anti-cheat software, because it never works, oh sure it will work right when it pops out and the cheat developers havent come up with the bypass, but when they do its back to the drawing bored for you.

Originally posted by -Sasuke-
No matter how many times we show them valid points against the use (not against the idea of cheat protection, but trying to at this point) of atcc, they're set in their ways. Or they like to argue alot. There will never be a better way to protect your server than to have an array of admins that police the server well. (not saying 24/7, but haveing admins that can be reached at some point in the day -- send demos! or if they happen to be online at the time via irc, IM's, or ingame -- talk to them and show them the cheater, then ban!)

edit: shambler, admins are supposed to keep their servers well kept, if you don't want to police the server, get lazy and use atcc (psst, which really doesn't stop aimbots.....)

not to say all admins are lazy or have the time , but running a server isn't exactly a cakewalk. So, an admin should be able to be contacted daily (good servers).

Very good points.


Originally posted by JP{420}
Ahhhhh yes.....Anti-TCC.

My .02 cents on it not that it matters....

Wormbo: You f*cking rock for bustin out Anti-TCC. I was running 23 servers and didn't have problems with your program. Only complaint was all the upgrades and having to edit 23 ini files. I know there's an easier way to do that, but it's on me not you.

I'm sorry to hear about u throwing in the towel, but seriously can't blame you. Anti-cheat coding is a b*tch and a half.
I will continue to use Anti-TCC because cheaters suck, and I haven't seen any lag except upon initial connection to a server. Weigh it out like some dope and that's a dam good deal. 5-10 second choppy up front rather than some ***tard wall hacking or non-stop headshots.....hmmmm....I like that deal.

Fellow admins/gamers: I'll never be able to stop the top notch hacks or hackers which has been accepted. Just the lame bottom feeder wannabe hackers that wish they had real hack skillz. So props to all the top coders out there may it be hack or anti-hack.

You wont be singing that tune, in a few months or weeks. Wormbo has discontinued antiTCC, and take a look at ELFs new News. Their Radar surpasses all cheat protections in Unreal Tournament 2004 (not surprising since this news was announce close to 3 WEEKs ago), and HelioS has plans to release a new Aimbot.

AntiTCC now is just a laggy piece of software that does absolutely no good.

Very self minded, you think us all dont have problems since you dont have problems. I can bet you I've built a better rig then you have with more performance then you'll ever get. But the difference is, you run different settings for your hardware.

[legacy-KCP]

By the way UTAN has just Banned another batch of ELF cd-keys :p

[Shambler]

Size down your quote's Sonic.


I've said this in other threads before: I've been involved in cheat protection projects since the days of Unreal1 so I know a great deal about how this stuff works.
I have experience in making and bypassing cheat protections in the past Unreal games (from UEngine 1 mainly) and also have kept up to date with how the current bots work.


AntiTCC is made to catch cheaters and it does that, it's been said repeatedly that even when it's been bypassed that a good deal of people are still caught with old cheats.
Every GUID caught and banned makes a difference.

Your knowledge of a few (possible) aimbot makers names (for completly unrelated games) is irrelevant, do you have any hands on experience with this stuff?

If cheats were not a problem you would not see cheat protections in the first place, and cheat protections will keep evolving to stop the newest cheats, look at UT1....because of the public source code for that game UT1 has better cheat protection tools than UT2k4.
If a team was taken in Epic's confidence to work with the source code great things could be made, it would more than level the playing field against the current aimbots.

Self minded....that's rich.....you would like every server to get rid of AntiTCC to suit you, server admins can and will run their server any damn way they want regardless of what you would prefer.

Why do you think so many servers use it? If it wasn't effective it would not be used at all.


Exactly what progress has this topic made? What use is this topic to the community? What difference will this make? F-all, this is the same argument and it's following nearly exactly the last thread.

[legacy-SonicBlaster200]

Originally posted by [6pk]Shambler
Size down your quote's Sonic.


I've said this in other threads before: I've been involved in cheat protection projects since the days of Unreal1 so I know a great deal about how this stuff works.
I have experience in making and bypassing cheat protections in the past Unreal games (from UEngine 1 mainly) and also have kept up to date with how the current bots work.


AntiTCC is made to catch cheaters and it does that, it's been said repeatedly that even when it's been bypassed that a good deal of people are still caught with old cheats.
Every GUID caught and banned makes a difference.

Your knowledge of a few (possible) aimbot makers names (for completly unrelated games) is irrelevant, do you have any hands on experience with this stuff?

If cheats were not a problem you would not see cheat protections in the first place, and cheat protections will keep evolving to stop the newest cheats, look at UT1....because of the public source code for that game UT1 has better cheat protection tools than UT2k4.
If a team was taken in Epic's confidence to work with the source code great things could be made, it would more than level the playing field against the current aimbots.

Self minded....that's rich.....you would like every server to get rid of AntiTCC to suit you, server admins can and will run their server any damn way they want regardless of what you would prefer.

Why do you think so many servers use it? If it wasn't effective it would not be used at all.


Exactly what progress has this topic made? What use is this topic to the community? What difference will this make? F-all, this is the same argument and it's following nearly exactly the last thread.

Wrong, the names of aimbot/cheat creators are important. Some are a lot more skilled then HelioS and if they were to make hacks for this game, your anti cheat programs would undoubtably be made useless fast.

Wrong, many servers use it simply because they have admins who themselves are not able to manage their servers 24/7 and nobody should expect them too either. But true blunt fact is, AntiTCC is only effective on those people who run older versions of cheats. Now days if they were to run the latest stuff from ELF they would undoubtably show you how useless your anti cheat programs are. Its amazing how ones mind will change the second they see an aimbot surpassing all known securety measures.

Thats why most datacenters dont bother to run fully blown firewalls, but instead just block every port except for the needed ports. Why because its simple, we've experienced first-hand what a real hacker can do. We've witnessed an individual break through tons of securety. In the end we've learned that securety is only useful in the sense that it provides comfort for our clients.

Virus scanning now days is just limited to the latest dats, but we dont expect that to work. Knowing the abilities of C++, ASM, Java, Binary, etc programmed applications we've concluded that virus scanners are only useful to an extent. Half the time we remove the viruses manually using our special inserted team.

Now all this talk about datacenters, hacking, and viruses is basically the same war as you believe you can fight now. Except the difference between the side your on and the side the cheaters are on, is:

You've got tanks, and bombers.
They've got Nukes.


Anti Cheat is not effective unless you mean banning those small group of people who use old cheats. Anti Cheat wont detect the latest cheats, simply because they've got a better aresenal to work with. Why? Because YOU entheusiasts who create and support antiCheat Programs must operate under the set restrictions EPIC applys. Cheat Developers dont care about anything, they dont care about what they do to the game, they dont care about the law, and they certaintly could care less about EPIC. Therefore they can decompile, disassemble, and use "anything" virtually to do as they wish. YOU cannot stop them no matter what you do, even if EPIC gave you complete open source to the game, they would still have the upper hand.

When you say my knowledge of completely unrelated games is irrelevant, that shows how idolencant you are. ITS not about the game, Its about the events that have taken place. If you fail to see the world around you, or what has happened in the past you have no right to be preaching to me about how irrelevant other games are, and how irrelevant past experiences are, and how irrelevent my proof is. Your saying I'm self minded? Well you could not be more from the truth, my goal IS to get rid of anti cheat measures in this community. WHY? Its through experience that I've learned that the community never gains from such measures. Its through this experience that I base everything I throw at each debate about. But that doesn't stop me from harbouring the fact that most admins wont change their ways. I dont expect them to remove their AntiTCC just because of me. But I do want them to look towards the future.

This topic has made no progress, why? Simply because you are unable to see the future ahead, nor are you able to look at the past behind. When you watch things around you die, and have seen a community virtually destroy itself, have watched the incredibly destructive nature of anti-cheat, then you'll understand. Even though cheats are destructive to a community, antiCheat is more destructive. Why? because cheats make the playing experience somewhat unflavorable, and unpleasant, but it can easily be delt with, by a swift kick, or simply removing yourself from that server (cheaters dont like to be alone since they cant beat people when there is nothing to beat.) But on the other hand anticheat measures only add more checks, more ways of verifying, that make the game difficult to play for a small portion of the community.


I do not believe a small group of people is insignificant. I believe they shouldn't have their money thrown away since half of the servers are equipped with the laggy junk. I dont believe they should suffer by the hands of anti-cheat measures when its the cheats that should do the suffering.


It seems like some people in community have lost their perspective. Unreal Tournament 2004 is a good game, and I dont want to see it butchered, the way other games have been. You think just because a community of poverty striken people in an area of wealthy people are insignificant? No, they arent. That is what you are demonstrating by supporting an anticheat solution that does have negative effects on the small group.

[legacy-Saito]

I hope everybody reads sonics comments, because thats correct

[legacy-Gaal Dornik]

Originally posted by SonicBlaster200
But true blunt fact is, AntiTCC is only effective on those people who run older versions of cheats.

Thats not true, the moment new version is released all botters get caught, get globally banned and cannot cheat anymore Whats so difficult to understand here. You wrote much text, with many, surely true points, but they does not seem to have much to do with current issue. Hope the arabian extremists dont get involved next :D

Actually a firewall should stop all hacker and trojans attempts. Ask yourself what doesnt make it work, i can repeat it anymore. Thats the same reason why AntiTCC is so effective.

Ah and again who told you all that Wormbo stopped AntiCheat development ??:noob:

[legacy-SonicBlaster200]

Originally posted by Gaal Dornik
Thats not true, the moment new version is released all botters get caught, get globally banned and cannot cheat anymore Whats so difficult to understand here. You wrote much text, with many, surely true points, but they does not seem to have much to do with current issue. Hope the arabian extremists dont get involved next :D

Actually a firewall should stop all hacker and trojans attempts. Ask yourself what doesnt make it work, i can repeat it anymore. Thats the same reason why AntiTCC is so effective.

Ah and again who told you all that Wormbo stopped AntiCheat development ??:noob:

1) He posted it on the UnrealAdmin forums explicitly telling the community he was not going to further develop AntiTCC and that antiTCC-Final was going to be his last version of AntiTCC done by him. He also mentioned that he wont accept any requests to tweak it here nor there.

2) No it does not, go read what ELF has to say about the upgrade from AntiTCC 118a to 118c they say its still "undetected" obviously that was a half ass job done by wormbo. The blunt fact is just because a new version is released doesn't mean its detected. The ELFLite Aimbot surpassed all protections from antiTCC 112-116d. So what happened to 113,114,115? Dont come here with point that obviously do no good, because I've been watching a lot of events, and "things" probably a lot more closely then you have.

3) Untill you understand the nature of hacking you do not understand how a firewall works, nor should you offer any comment because from a person in management who reads reports, who's had training in the selected jobs my employee's follow I can quickly shoot that down the drain.

Firewalls only provide difficulty getting past the safeguard. But that doesn't mean its impossible, however improbable. A truely experienced hacker can just about get through any sort of securety you throw at him, aside from the one event where the system is not connected in any form whatsoever to the internet. Just because your protected by a firewall doesn't mean your safe, software firewalls act as a shield, but they dont encompass everything around the system, and are the easiest to bypass, why? Simply because the firewall is included into the system, whereas the system should be built around the firewall to provide true results, however even that cannot provide securety for long. Hackers can use methods that you cannot even comprehend, have technology of a destructive nature, and can operate with unmeasurable stealth.

Next is the hardware firewall which is in a sense more "sturdy" but it can still be passed, even though its highly improbable. Even though injection of data into a stream should be impossible, with the wonders of programming it has been made possible to a sense. It works like injection of code into memory (thus Den1_P1p0's loader which sorry to say wormbo didn't catch very well.) In a sense your hardware can't really filter the data of a stream, therefore it simply cant work. Although most people arent downloading things all the time, it doesn't take a lot of time for something such as this to happen. Then of course theres the brute method, in which the hacker has a botnet all trying to attack your poor little router by flooding it, that simply accomplish's connection loss. But a true blundering idiot will connect his computer directly and find out that he's been hacked.

Firewalls help only a little by our standards, by a home user maybe greatly a lot. But the true blunt statement is they arent on our hard disks to protect us, no they are on there to relay a false sense of securety.

[legacy--Sasuke-]

Originally posted by SonicBlaster200
1) He posted it on the UnrealAdmin forums explicitly telling the community he was not going to further develop AntiTCC and that antiTCC-Final was going to be his last version of AntiTCC done by him. He also mentioned that he wont accept any requests to tweak it here nor there.

2) No it does not, go read what ELF has to say about the upgrade from AntiTCC 118a to 118c they say its still "undetected" obviously that was a half ass job done by wormbo. The blunt fact is just because a new version is released doesn't mean its detected. The ELFLite Aimbot surpassed all protections from antiTCC 112-116d. So what happened to 113,114,115? Dont come here with point that obviously do no good, because I've been watching a lot of events, and "things" probably a lot more closely then you have.



Reason doesn't work to well with him. go figure :rolleyes:

and everyone knows wormbo is done with atcc. Pretty sure he is leaving the code open so others can work on it but he's done after final.

[legacy-Gaal Dornik]

1. Yes, but where did he post that he is going to stop producing new anticheat mutators

2. erm 1.18c is just a compatibility makeup for ECE clients. Look how many cheaters got banned when atcc started to look into \prefetch directory.

3. No hacker can get through a simple firewall. Simply because he first must connect to the port. And the firewall denies him this pleasure. Think about why he's still able to penetrate it, ( to be able to go into stealth mode, he first needs to penetrate the firewall so it doesnt work this way. ) The most obvious example are troyans. Why are they so effective, despite the fact that they are so simple and so easy to detect. :noob:

[legacy-Xipher]

Originally posted by Gaal Dornik

3. No hacker can get through a simple firewall. Simply because he first must connect to the port.
:haha: :up:

[legacy-Gaal Dornik]

Xipher
Do you disagree? :haha: :up:
If so, specify why you think so.

Edit: err no dont, its offtopic. In reality other reasons stop a firewall from being the all-cure solution which i wanted to hear from SonicBlaster200 ( or maybe you can call them? ;) )
Edited again, to prevent flamewars lol

[legacy-Xipher]

Originally posted by Gaal Dornik
Xipher
Do you disagree? :haha: :up:
If so, specify why you think so.
Do you realize how many firewalls themselves have vulnerablities? Heck, a well formed packet can cause the thing to crash, leaving the rest of the system wide open again. First step is just to determine which kind it is, which depending on response (or lack thereof) can help with that. When it stuff like the home use Gateway Nat boxes, you just find some exploit (free downloads of those every were) and then have it setup port forwards, and allow remote management.
Those are 2 possiblities, and there are too many too list.

Now that is just script kiddie stuff.

[legacy--Sasuke-]

Originally posted by Xipher
Do you realize how many firewalls themselves have vulnerablities? Heck, a well formed packet can cause the thing to crash, leaving the rest of the system wide open again. First step is just to determine which kind it is, which depending on response (or lack thereof) can help with that. When it stuff like the home use Gateway Nat boxes, you just find some exploit (free downloads of those every were) and then have it setup port forwards, and allow remote management.
Those are 2 possiblities, and there are too many too list.

Now that is just script kiddie stuff.

no matter how many points you make, however valid, the simple minded can't be swayed!

[legacy-Gaal Dornik]

Xipher
(I edited my reply to you a little ) Erm, these solutions surely work, but as you see they all rely on firewall exploits, not on breaking through the firewall itself :noob: which was my point actually. ( pls reread the former post to see that i specifically stated that in reality hackers do get past it :) ) Assume we have an ideal firewall, clean PC and all closed ports w/o any allowed programs to hear/connect

[legacy-Kreskin]

I have never cheated. Why do I have to be affected? Only cheaters have to be affected. Not me.

[Magwa]

SonicBlaster200= best points written on the subject so far well done and to the point!

Guys it is like this please bear with me for a min...i am 54 years old i have seen aolt of things in my days on this rock.now does gun control work ? NO. does locking your home against robbers work ?NO why because those that want to beat the system always will the only good way to catch them is red handed(server admins) then ban them and their cd key forever (Utan) i no this is a hot topic and i try to see everyones point but sadly look at the history of Ut99 and Utpure etc it simply does not work.

Take all the attention away from this game and yes their will be a few cheaters always will be...but they will grow tired of having nothing to hack and slowly fade away...if you sit near your shiny new sports car with a gun and the car thiefs learn about it do you think they will try and steal your car? no they will head for easier pickings ...server admins do the best you can and rely on your logs and people who play on your server and this subject although never gone will get alot smaller.

[legacy-Gaal Dornik]

Originally posted by Magwa
does locking your home against robbers work ?NO why because those that want to beat the system always will the only good way to catch them is red handed(server admins) then ban them and their cd key forever (Utan)
Good example. AntiTCC is here the alarm system.
Does it prevent a profi to break in? no. :down:
Does it prevent a wannabe to break in? YES :up:
Does it cause a regular citizen to not even try to break in at night, cause he fears the consequences. YES. :up:
See??

[Magwa]

Originally posted by Gaal Dornik
Good example. AntiTCC is here the alarm system.
Does it prevent a profi to break in? no. :down:
Does it prevent a wannabe to break in? YES :up:
Does it cause a regular citizen to not even try to break in at night, cause he fears the consequences. YES. :up:
See??

yeah i see your point :) but i never said anything about a alarm...and they do not work either it is a billion dollar industry (just like anti cheat programs) and still cars are stolen and homes are broken into even banks..lol sit there with a gun and problem solved...(< just a example) yes wannabes will get caught stuppid crimminals always do but the hard core peeps are not effected at all unless you have the wooden end of the gun (server admins logs,etc) in your hand and the business end pointed at them....

Hell Gaal i do not have all the answers no one does but i truly believe that outside anticheat programs are not the answer...it needs to come from epic so it is applied the same accross the whole system just my opinion ...i know i am getting old but hey i still like to play but it is becoming almost not worth the money spent...seems like since 2k3 it has been one big fight over one thing or another ...

[Shambler]

So much useless info in some of your speeches Sonic it takes ages to cut it down. (and if your going to quote whole posts by me then don't complain about the length of this :p)


the names of aimbot/cheat creators are important. Some are a lot more skilled then HelioS and if they were to make hacks for this game, your anti cheat programs would undoubtably be made useless fast.

Hardly..you can't compare cheat makers in other games to those based upon the Unreal Engine, the code between different game engine's is completely different.


many servers use it simply because they have admins who themselves are not able to manage their servers 24/7 and nobody should expect them too either. But true blunt fact is, AntiTCC is only effective on those people who run older versions of cheats.

Agreed, that's what everyone's been saying....


Now days if they were to run the latest stuff from ELF they would undoubtably show you how useless your anti cheat programs are. Its amazing how ones mind will change the second they see an aimbot surpassing all known securety measures.

The way the current cheats access the engine has changed very little since the start of UT2k4, the methods of doing this (and how they will be done later) are well known.
It's just a matter of people taking it upon themselves to develop the next most advanced protections, UT1 is a great example of that.


Now all this talk about datacenters, hacking, and viruses is basically the same war as you believe you can fight now.

No, this is on a much more specific scale of hacking....You can't compare a virus scanner searching for a couple thousand different viruses or a firewall to anti-cheat mods monitoring the vulnerable areas in the engine, while AntiTCC may scan your HD it is scanning for only a few select files.


Anti Cheat is not effective unless you mean banning those small group of people who use old cheats.

That group is not as small as you assume, a good deal of people still get caught by AntiTCC today.


Anti Cheat wont detect the latest cheats, simply because they've got a better aresenal to work with. Why? Because YOU entheusiasts who create and support antiCheat Programs must operate under the set restrictions EPIC applys. Cheat Developers dont care about anything, they dont care about what they do to the game, they dont care about the law, and they certaintly could care less about EPIC. Therefore they can decompile, disassemble, and use "anything" virtually to do as they wish.

Captain obvious to the rescue....


YOU cannot stop them no matter what you do, even if EPIC gave you complete open source to the game, they would still have the upper hand.

Incorrect. In the right hands these cheats can be stopped entirely, the limitations of UScript that UT2k4's cheat protections are subject to is the thing hindering cheat protections at the moment.
Wormbo did a great job of stopping these cheats within those limitations, the progress that could be made with someone of his talents having access to the source would be huge.


When you say my knowledge of completely unrelated games is irrelevant, that shows how idolencant you are.

What the hell is idolencant? I assume it's mispelled or something because that's not a word. (searching it in online dictionaries and even google gives nothing whatsoever)


ITS not about the game, Its about the events that have taken place. If you fail to see the world around you, or what has happened in the past you have no right to be preaching to me about how irrelevant other games are, and how irrelevant past experiences are, and how irrelevent my proof is. Your saying I'm self minded? Well you could not be more from the truth, my goal IS to get rid of anti cheat measures in this community. WHY? Its through experience that I've learned that the community never gains from such measures. Its through this experience that I base everything I throw at each debate about. But that doesn't stop me from harbouring the fact that most admins wont change their ways. I dont expect them to remove their AntiTCC just because of me. But I do want them to look towards the future.

What proof? lol, what right have you to be preaching to anyone that cheat protections aren't neccessary, if you belive this game would be better without protections then you know nothing of the past and have no real experience with these cheats in Unreal.
The only reason the cheat protections came about in the first place is because of the cheats. (UT1 being the example here)

The only reason I believe your going on about AntiTCC is because your annoyed with the occasional lag on some servers, to me that seems very self minded...and now your just switching arguments...first it's "oh no AntiTCC lags me it's evil get rid of it" now that that's been argued over and put down it's "AntiTCC is encouraging more cheats lets get rid of it omg evil anti-haxxors!")


This topic has made no progress, why? Simply because you are unable to see the future ahead, nor are you able to look at the past behind. When you watch things around you die, and have seen a community virtually destroy itself, have watched the incredibly destructive nature of anti-cheat, then you'll understand. Even though cheats are destructive to a community, antiCheat is more destructive. Why? because cheats make the playing experience somewhat unflavorable, and unpleasant, but it can easily be delt with, by a swift kick, or simply removing yourself from that server (cheaters dont like to be alone since they cant beat people when there is nothing to beat.) But on the other hand anticheat measures only add more checks, more ways of verifying, that make the game difficult to play for a small portion of the community.

UT1 is still very very popular right? Can you find many good and popular servers there that DON'T have some sort of protection? (and also you seem to think aimbots are the only cheats...radars/wallhacks etc. are undetectable by admins without cheat detecting tools)
This topic has made no progress because your arguments are already at a dead end before they have begun, lets have some real FACTS to back this bull' up because most of what I have read is speculation/assumptions/opinions that have no solid base. (I have taken great time to list out the appropriate details of my points and the facts)

And also, if you bring up a point that has been disputed before you do not simply ignore the previous arguments on it you include them and disprove them if you can..There are so many repititions of old arguments here that people will only go in circles. (as is happening now)
I have taken note of every point made sofar and have set out to prove/disprove it while considering past threads.


You think just because a community of poverty striken people in an area of wealthy people are insignificant? No, they arent. That is what you are demonstrating by supporting an anticheat solution that does have negative effects on the small group.

:haha: I'm prejudiced towards the poor because I support cheat protections, lol.


2) No it does not, go read what ELF has to say about the upgrade from AntiTCC 118a to 118c they say its still "undetected" obviously that was a half ass job done by wormbo.

Those versions were only bugfixes upon the final release, read the changelog before you go personally criticising Wormbo.


3)

All your points made here (which I have ommited because the post is so long) about firewalls etc. show that you have not got a CLUE about the coding involved to produce these cheats.
Getting through a firewall is not comparable to making these cheats and just because you have some funky job in an IT company or something does not mean you know a lot (if anything) about that area(game area) of hacks. (and more specifically those in the Unreal Engine)

Magwa:
Take all the attention away from this game and yes their will be a few cheaters always will be...but they will grow tired of having nothing to hack and slowly fade away

By which time their cheats have killed most of the game, the servers with which there are admins to continue monitoring will stay but the rest will disappear along with a great portion of the community. (there are a LOT of GUID's out there and the cheaters have a great many of them)





Flame on:rolleyes:

[Magwa]

Originally posted by [6pk]Shambler

Magwa:
Take all the attention away from this game and yes their will be a few cheaters always will be...but they will grow tired of having nothing to hack and slowly fade away

By which time their cheats have killed most of the game, the servers with which there are admins to continue monitoring will stay but the rest will disappear along with a great portion of the community. (there are a LOT of GUID's out there and the cheaters have a great many of them)
Flame on:rolleyes:

The game will not last that long (like Ut99) because there will be other versions in a year or so, the community is all but new now since 2k3 yes there are a great many peeps that went from Ut to 2k3 and 2k4 but Ut remains cheats and all as popular as 2k4 in fact it is easier to find a good server there than on 2k4 most being empty...what is the point of having a great game to play if it is no fun or unplayable as the makers intended(custom content) i mean geesh this is no fun trying to find a server to play on and to be kicked for a voice pack lmao...i still say Epic needs to make the anticheat program so it ships with the game and everyone has excess to how to make it work under one set of rules ...ANTI TCC is custom content...Hmmmmm does it kick it'self?

[Shambler]

Originally posted by joepjens
Uhm I heard of 1 wallhack that isn't detected by antitcc since the release.

IIRC the current aimbots come with wallhacks, the point I was making about wallhacks/radar etc. is that they can not be detected by any admins....thus if there is no protection it's an undetectable hack.
Unlike aimbots of course where you can just spectate someone to see if he has one or not.

[legacy-Gaal Dornik]

Originally posted by Magwa
yeah i see your point :)
Thx, looks like we can come to an agreement, someday :)

but i never said anything about a alarm
True, but it still exist, and still used, i think for a reason.

I do agree that the world would be better w/o anticheats( as well as cheats) but pls suggest a better tool which offers basic protection against simple skins repainting to get brightskins or stops known bots. Remember UT2k4 demo? client side Brightskins were almost standard there :D , as well as cheaters in nearly every game, again it had a reason - no AntiTCC.

Btw, what do you expect from Epic its in the same position and it released an anticheat as well, UTsecure, which is AntiTCC Jr. :noob: and didnt last long

[Magwa]

Originally posted by Gaal Dornik
Thx, looks like we can come to an agreement, someday :)

but i never said anything about a alarm
True, but it still exist, and still used, i think for a reason.

I do agree that the world would be better w/o anticheats( as well as cheats) but pls suggest a better tool which offers basic protection against simple skins repainting to get brightskins or stops known bots. Remember UT2k4 demo? client side Brightskins were almost standard there :D , as well as cheaters in nearly every game, again it had a reason - no AntiTCC.

Btw, what do you expect from Epic its in the same position and it released an anticheat as well, UTsecure, which is AntiTCC Jr. :noob: and didnt last long

Yeah i see what you mean for sure i had high hopes for Utsecure i guess i would rather play with the bots and hackers after all all the ones i have seen left after 1 game or just could not take the harrasment from other players,then have the game laggy and no fun at least no one will ever accuse me of botting i am not that good anymore...

[Shambler]

Originally posted by Magwa
The game will not last that long (like Ut99) because there will be other versions in a year or so, the community is all but new now since 2k3 yes there are a great many peeps that went from Ut to 2k3 and 2k4 but Ut remains cheats and all as popular as 2k4 in fact it is easier to find a good server there than on 2k4 most being empty...what is the point of having a great game to play if it is no fun or unplayable as the makers intended(custom content) i mean geesh this is no fun trying to find a server to play on and to be kicked for a voice pack lmao...i still say Epic needs to make the anticheat program so it ships with the game and everyone has excess to how to make it work under one set of rules ...ANTI TCC is custom content...Hmmmmm does it kick it'self?

Yes it is even more SURE to not last that long if there were no protections :) what will we then do when UT2k5 or whatever then has aimbots available for it?
It will be ruined from the beginning without protection.

About your point of the game being no fun: playing cheaters is no fun and when the cheat protections are used properly they do not take away from the fun factor for most people.
Sure custom content may get kicked on a lot of servers but it's STILL up to the admins :) if that's how they decide to configure AntiTCC then that's that.

The protection that Epic provided with the game (UTSecure) is not usefull because Joe (the 'Dr.Sin' Joe that is) is busy working on other areas of the game (thus, to Gaal, this tool was not updated often enough to be of use), in fact it was initially stated IIRC that he was putting the security of the game up to community made protections. (so that was the word from Epic, that they supported community made protections)

While AntiTCC is custom content of a sort it isn't the same as a voice pack etc...voice packs are often client-side only custom content where-as AntiTCC is serverside.


Joe:
Well then send it to Wormbo lol :) he can probably pass it on to the SafeGame crew. (or whoever is continuing AntiTCC, if anybody is atm)
The success of the protections also depends upon the community helping out a little too ;)

[legacy-Gaal Dornik]

Originally posted by joepjens
Does it prevent a wannabe to break in? no, because he just downloads the bot from the prof. :down:

And what if he doesnt, since he doesnt know which bot comes from a "profi" and which is a bad outdated version he downloaded a month ago. He is a wannabe after all =)


no, cause a regular citizen won't break in in a car, because normal people don't do that.
well. no comment to this one :cry:

In the demo I have seen 1 speedhack.
The skin hack was even posted here on the forum :noob: by a member i will not name now and all ladder players used it as well.

[Magwa]

[6pk]Shambler

good post i have no problem understanding your point of view i guess we will just have to agree not to agree i find it very hard to swallow that i pay 49.95 for a game and the cheat protection is left up to those that play it.sorry i just can not buy into that line of thinking. UT 99 lasted for what 6 years now almost and still going and lord knows it has it's share of botters and always has had,,,life was much more fun in those days ...

[legacy-Saito]

Gaal the bright skins from the demo still clear antiTCC, the reason nobody uses them now is because we have UTcomp.

Plus I still have yet to see anybody face up or counter the fact that, hackers go for secure games.

Better cheats come from programers, not gamers. The biggest predators go for the biggest prey. Right now 2k4 is a small rabbit, it's kinda fun to code crap for it. But it's an ubber easy kill, and most don't bother with it (and for the record antiTCC doesn't stop **** I have stated before I can get a bot past it, and I know others can as well). As soon as you make the security programs a big fat cow, you are going to get the lions and tigers and bears "oh my", and then 2k4 is as ****ed as CS is interms of sorting out the problem.

Some games have cheats so bad you can crash the servers easily, there is allot more malicious crap out there, from a slew of coders. Why make 2k4 and apealing target for them?

Really the way I see it is most anti cheat coders are out to say "look I saved the game", and as soon as their program/ego gets to big a good programer will shut them down and slaughter the game (cough CS cough).

You fighting non existant issues out of paranoia and in the process you are attracting the very boogey man you are so scared of.

It's like a ****ing baby sheep. There are no wolves around but he is so paranoid he keeps making noise, eventualy he will end up attracting the very thing he is so scared of.

That and it lags like *****.

[Shambler]

Magwa:
Agreed :)
I hope that since people are beginning to settle down now that this topic will soon come to an end.

[legacy-Gaal Dornik]

[6pk]Shambler
yeah. i try to keep postings as small as possible cause of readability, and the INA-rule which states that average INA members dont read more that 3 sentences, which i see doesnt apply here, fortunately :D

Magwa
Somehow i think you still kick *ss in ut2k4 :noob:
What we can do however is that u connect to the server where im (or [6pk]Shambler?) adminning, so we can put AntiTCC on and off and see whether its actual antiTCC lagging or just connection lag

Saito
Uhm no, in fact they were stopped by utsecure already

[Shambler]

Plus I still have yet to see anybody face up or counter the fact that, hackers go for secure games.

Ugh....yes well done, way to not bother reading all the posts.

But it's an ubber easy kill, and most don't bother with it (and for the record antiTCC doesn't stop **** I have stated before I can get a bot past it, and I know others can as well).

Hmm your point of view is a suspicious one, you openly admitted to creating cheats...(and I'm speculative on wether that is bull or not)
AntiTCC wasn't meant to stop the private cheats only the public one's and boy is it doing that well.

That and it lags like *****.
:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: that's genuinely funny.

Gaal:
Heh, I think I should have read those rules before wasting my time with some of these people:rolleyes:

What we can do however is that u connect to the server where im (or [6pk]Shambler?) adminning
Don't run/admin any servers unfortunatly :)

[legacy-Abilio_KID]

Ok guys, this seems like one of those talks at dinner or lunch with your work mates when you start a conversation and suddenly people are arguing about who's sexier in the group. Eventually the person who started it (aka ME) gets forgoten in all the mambo jumbo and the problem isn't solved. All I wanted to know is there a way to solve this? Should I just stop playing the game? Any thing I could do to make it worth the money I spent on this game?
As you can see, apart from the hours I spend at work in front of a PC with AutoCAD, I use the rest for normal things like eating, drinking, sleeping, pissing, chitting and eventually play this game after browsing some web pages and emails. If I had a personal life I wouldn't know what to do with it. Instead I play this game (because UT2003 is dead anyway:sour: ). I'm not 54 but my 29 are feeling old already...
Oh well, maybe I should play something else:weird:

[legacy-Saito]

in answer, yes you are right, the problem is the common factor (antiTCC), and all you can do is stay away from it.

[legacy-Gaal Dornik]

[6pk]Shambler
Well Sai.. err "some people" are not that bad, cause they can do valid points and in other discussions its they who are right and we who are wrong. :D so its equality. Some other like Sasuke are better just ignored. They dont make any points anyway lol.

Abilio_KID
Uhm I would say get a better ISP and check for viruses/ troyans, but thats surely not the answer youre hoping for.

[legacy-SonicBlaster200]

Originally posted by Saito
in answer, yes you are right, the problem is the common factor (antiTCC), and all you can do is stay away from it.

Very true, but in the end it all comes down to the frame of mind.

It appears supporters (some of them) are too caught up in the fact they think their antiCheat measures have a posative effect on the game, that they themselves never take the time to bother really thinking about it (why? you dont think hacking is the same as cracking? You dont think this game and another game arent similar? You think that Firewalls, virus scanners, and anti cheat programs are the same? You think air and water have nothing to do with eachother? You think that a computer and TV have nothing to do with eachother? You think this forum and another have nothing to do with eachother? You think My school and your school have nothing to do with eachother? Think again.)

Its sad, to see the community with people such as these. Right now I do not feel like writing a detailed post for the soul reason that people never take the time to read it thoroughly and take the time to actually think of it open mindedly. <---- See that statement, people right now will attack it at any rate.

I say there is nothing more this community can do. Its heading down the wrong path, one it cannot see (with the exception of those who do see the future itself.)


I say right now, is let these supporters develop their anti cheat. Heck, why not even get wormbo to come back to make UT2004 a great challenge. Soon you'll find more, and more well developed hacks that not even your entheusiasts can handel.

If you take a look at some of the games who have professionals coding their anticheat (nProtect GameGuard being one of the professionally operated anti cheat services, far more superior then most of you "entheusiasts" are capable of coding) and have developers bypass that work, then you would realise how pathetic anti cheat is.

When some of you supporters mature your state of mind, you then should begin this debate yet again. For now you are close minded, after all look at magwa he has an open mind he can see the validity of some of your arguements, but the fact is you never want to see the validity of some of his.

[Shambler]

I see the validity of everyone's arguments but getting rid of cheat protections is (quite arguably, as the last 3-4 pages would suggest:p) not the answer.

Abilio:
The definitive way to test on wether it's AntiTCC or not is to do what Gaal suggested and test it on a particular server once with it off and once with it on.

Saito/Sonic:
Lets have some facts, I present the facts I know to you in my posts so to avoid this revolving in yet another circle please provide some yourself, not just the usual speculations/assumptions/opinions but back up what you say with something solid.

No matter the points (and validity of those points) raised you are steadfast in your views, much like my very first post in this topic predicted.

I have read all your points and responded to each, never ignoring any.

[legacy-Abilio_KID]

Originally posted by Gaal Dornik
[6pk]Shambler
Well Sai.. err "some people" are not that bad, cause they can do valid points and in other discussions its they who are right and we who are wrong. :D so its equality. Some other like Sasuke are better just ignored. They dont make any points anyway lol.

Abilio_KID
Uhm I would say get a better ISP and check for viruses/ troyans, but thats surely not the answer youre hoping for.
Lol, read my first post. I'm using a new BETTER ISP who gives me about 95% the total speed of what I pay for. Not bad considering my last cable ISP was giving me speeds below 56K, ping over 150 everywhere and packet lost over 30%. This new one may not be top notch for gaming (none of them are in this crappy country) but that doesn't explain why I only get packet loss and performance degradation when aproaching other players on screen. That's why I thought it would be some sort of checking AntiTCC could be doing when 'seeing' other players.
For the record I have new ISP, new OS (clean installation), drivers up to date (except video card drivers because these are the best for my old card) and PC is well protected and clean (boy I've been on all this **** before when my ISP kept telling the problem was on my side:bulb: ). So, the only thing that could put AntiTCC apart from it could be some hardware issue. Sound drivers using too much CPU? I don't know. Everything else works fine.:(

[6pk]Shambler, I'll try that:up:

[Wormbo]

Originally posted by [6pk]Shambler
Saito/Sonic:
Lets have some facts, I present the facts I know to you in my posts so to avoid this revolving in yet another circle please provide some yourself, not just the usual speculations/assumptions/opinions but back up what you say with something solid.
Also see this link (http://www.redvsblue.net/posting.html). http://www.koehler-homepage.de/smilies/ugly.gif

[Shambler]

Originally posted by Wormbo
Also see this link (http://www.redvsblue.net/posting.html). http://www.koehler-homepage.de/smilies/ugly.gif

:haha: :up: That's now part of my sig

[legacy-Saito]

Shambler are you to dense to see that people create cheats for the sake of cracking the programs.

Are to daft to see that the slew on newer (and better) hacks have come into play soley because your pathetic antiTCC crusade.

Is your head so far up your ass to realise that a large portion of the people who DL bots, do so SOLEY to get past antiTCC, and thats the fun in it.

Do you not realize that every game that has taken an agressive anti cheat strategy with a effective program ends up sinking like a rock in pools of cheaters, as every programer worth his salt in the scene rushes to make a way into the game better than the other programers.

I would ask if you are smart enough to see where this will lead if people keep on the crusade, but some of you are to dense to see it.

You are ignorning all of that and sticking to your dead horse of "it stops cheaters", when it really doesn't. The cheaters that it stops are the same talentless dolts who are so blatant they get caught anyways. If anything it encourages more cheaters than it stops.

You throw back that "if you don't play on servers with it why do you care", simple:

I have played many games with varying degrees of cheat protection, the slippery slope is always the same. One person decides to crack the game and make his cheat. You have a small percentage cheating, with a limited number of half assed cheats. Then some knuckle heads freak out, saying the game is screwed and some body comes up with a way to stop it. Then more cheats come out, and the cycle goes on up till a point. The boiling point is where an effective program is made that shuts down most of the cheats cold (antiTCC does not do that) and people can't crack it. What always happens after this, is some of the really good guys (not script kiddy jokers) gets word and then you get the really good programs having open season trying to make cheats or even do malevolent damage to the players/servers and your in a position that you can't get out of. I don't want to see this.

The more armour you put on the bigger the gun the opponent is going to fire at you. You can go ahead and try and build a bunker to ward off pistol fire, all that's going to happen is the sucker with nuke is going to say "oo a worthy target".

[legacy-KCP]

PLEASE LOCK THIS THREAD

[Magwa]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gaal Dornik
[b][6pk]Shambler
yeah. i try to keep postings as small as possible cause of readability, and the INA-rule which states that average INA members dont read more that 3 sentences, which i see doesnt apply here, fortunately :D

Magwa
Somehow i think you still kick *ss in ut2k4 :noob:
What we can do however is that u connect to the server where im (or [6pk]Shambler?) adminning, so we can put AntiTCC on and off and see whether its actual antiTCC lagging or just connection lag


sounds good to me noe one question do i put you in the buddy list like this [6pk]Shambler?) or like this [6pk]Shambler? without the last )..?

[Spaz]

Mostly when AntiTCC lags a system its not the connection speed that effects the game its the fact that AntiTCC is using CPU time and using the hard drive to do its checks. Having any computer load data from a HD during a game will cause it to skip. Thats why lots of hardcore gamers have tons of memory. So the game is completely loaded and nothing is needed from the HD. The reason some have lag and others don't is because most people have different computer setups and they all act differently. This difference is enough to make one players game skip while a second player only sees text on the screen.

[legacy-Abilio_KID]

I've been using 1GB DDR for about 2 years:weird:
Well, if it's not AntiTCC I can assume it's some CPU limitation or problem. Can it be heat or something?

[Spaz]

Taking info from the HD is one of the most costly operations for a computer. Even if you have enough memory for it to be completely loaded there AntiTCC still checks the files on the HD. I just think that is the main reason people are having problems.

[legacy-Saito]

Originally posted by Spaz007
Mostly when AntiTCC lags a system its not the connection speed that effects the game its the fact that AntiTCC is using CPU time and using the hard drive to do its checks. Having any computer load data from a HD during a game will cause it to skip. Thats why lots of hardcore gamers have tons of memory. So the game is completely loaded and nothing is needed from the HD. The reason some have lag and others don't is because most people have different computer setups and they all act differently. This difference is enough to make one players game skip while a second player only sees text on the screen.

3.2 p4 E 2 gigs pc 4000, 9700 pro, aud 2 plat, abit IC7-g mx 3 mobo... its not my system you dolts, and similar systems get rocked as well.

It's that junk ass anti TCC

and as for my hd's 2 raptors (36 gb) in raid 0

durr, your point is moot, since high end systems get worked by it.

[Spaz]

Originally posted by Saito
3.2 p4 E 2 gigs pc 4000, 9700 pro, aud 2 plat, abit IC7-g mx 3 mobo... its not my system you dolts, and similar systems get rocked as well.

It's that junk ass anti TCC

and as for my hd's 2 raptors (36 gb) in raid 0

durr, your point is moot, since high end systems get worked by it.

For once I'm saying AntiTCC can slow down a computer and you still act like a asshat.

Well I still want to know why my POS computer can run AntiTCC fine while you can't? Must be computer magic :rolleyes:

[Wormbo]

Well, in my tests I often ran a dedicated server and the UT2004 client on the same machine (AMD Athlon XP 1500+ with 512MB DDR RAM and Win98SE) - with acceptable performance for a machine running server and client. I can't say it was worse than running the server on another computer (which I did as well) or without Anti TCC (except during the checks, but that's normal).

If your high-end P7 8+GHz CPU and 4GB of RAM can't take it, then you must have a configuration problem or the server admin screwed up the Anti TCC configuration.

[legacy-senshu]

Wormbo, thanks for all your efforts.

[Shambler]

Saito:
You've gotten WL in the past AntiTCC threads so be carefull how you reply, if you want to continue this debate do it in a mature way and don't attempt to flame.


There are limited types of cheats that can be made for the game, aimbots of various types then there are speedhacks then wallhacks/radars etc. plus probably a few more minor cheats/exploits.
More DoS attacks which could be used to crash servers may possibly still exist in the engine but if they are discovered (either by malicious use or being reported by security companies like before) they'll get fixed quick.
So it's always going to be those same types of cheats that are the main problem.

If the cheats surpass a cheat protection such as AntiTCC now it's the same problem as if they surpass a much more advanced protection written in C++ or whatever.
The same way as a cheat designed to pass really really advanced protections will function the same as one designed to pass a less advanced protection, the user of the cheat will see nothing different it's only the method of breaking security that's different and if there IS no security then that's this difficulty solved for the creator.

If cheat protection is given up on we won't need some uber haxxor to 'nuke' the game as you say, the 'script kiddie jokers' would be perfectly capable to carry that out themselves.


Magwa:
Nah I don't use [Sixpack]Shambler anymore (forum name is shorter so it would fit) but I occasionally play under Shambler....but more to the point I don't run a server, so it would be difficult for me to test that out:)

[legacy-Saito]

I have never recieved warning levels for posts in an antiTCC thread, I got those for calling people out for 1 v 1's in an anti noob thread. Get your facts straight.

You obviously have no clue what you are talking about, or about what goes on amongst the groups of people that actively create malicious items (cheats attacks whatever). So just to tell you, there are more than enough people out there that can do true damage to a game, not the joke stuff you see now. However they have only really hit games that really went crazy on cheat protection, soley for the point of beating it. The joke script kiddies that write up some little bot are not the guys you should be worried about.

It's funny because several people have stated to you percisely what the situation is and you just come back not addressing the facts, and spout off with more of your "antiTCC stops some cheats now", yet you refuse to open your eyes and see the glaring fact that more cheats are created because of it. You also offer up no points other than "it stops cheaters now, so therefor it is good" which is totaly void and null because you fail to realize the consequences of continualy updating it. It doesn't take the brightest guy on the planet to look at who has done what in other games in order to make a joke of high level cheat protection, and the fact that you completely ignore that leads me to think you are either a low watt bulb, or just droning on for the sake having to be right.

Your talking about cheat protection. The real question is "does throwing antiTCC on servers, and updating the crap out of it really stop cheats from being made, or getting into the game?" The problem is that while it stops some cheats from getting into the game, it cause a heck of allot of cheats to be made for the game that wouldn't have before. Thus each cycle going around more and mroe stuff comes out that it doesn't get, so while stop some stuff, the end result isn't the best. Hence slim it down, and leave it. Don't mess with it or try to stop every new silly item that comes out, untill you have a real problem, and not just a horde of chicken littles freaking out because little timmy over there got spanked by a botter.

[legacy-Sphinx]

the fact that people put in effort in the community should be respected.

but it doesnt mean the product isnt ****e

[Shambler]

Originally posted by Saito
I have never recieved warning levels for posts in an antiTCC thread, I got those for calling people out for 1 v 1's in an anti noob thread. Get your facts straight.
After searching up the old thread I was thinking of I admit I was wrong on that.



I know exactly what I'm talking about when it comes to these cheats and the protections and just because you've browsed a few cheating forums doesn't mean you know jack-$hit about how this stuff works.

You claim to have gotten bots past the protection and act as if you know all there is to do with cheats but I believe that is utter bull....you say that more cheats are made every time the protection is updated...the only new releases of cheats are the one's that already exist simply modified to get past the new protection.


It's funny because several people have stated to you percisely what the situation is and you just come back not addressing the facts

What I find funny is either your not reading my posts or are too thick to take it in: if a cheat is released publically it is perfectly stoppable and if we give up the cheat protection now it will make no difference if there are 1 or a f-ing million different aimbots because anyone who wants to cheat CAN cheat without worrying about being caught and the consequences after!
Do you need some extra time to let that sink in to your little head? *cough*idiot*cough*


It doesn't take the brightest guy on the planet to look at who has done what in other games in order to make a joke of high level cheat protection

And what the hell is stopping people just making better protections, do you think people will stop just because Elf are going to make better hooks than what they've been doing now? $hit no, the protections will get better and the same will happen if new methods of breaking them come about aswell. (the tools atm are doing a good enough job and if the need comes they will get better)

Do you think your little crusade to rid this game of protections will get anywhere Saito? It won't, any cheat can be stopped the same as any protection can be bypassed. (and the protections don't NEED to stay permenantly secure to do their job)


The real question is "does throwing antiTCC on servers, and updating the crap out of it really stop cheats from being made, or getting into the game?"

Hurray for missing the point again Saito :rolleyes:...do we need to stop cheats being made or stop them getting into the game? No.
The main goal should be stopping the publicly available cheats.



Wether you like it or not the cheat protections are neccessary and are here to stay.

[Wormbo]

Give it up, Shambler. You're not going to get through to him... :rolleyes:

[Shambler]

Originally posted by Wormbo
Give it up, Shambler. You're not going to get through to him... :rolleyes:

It's difficult to fight the urge to keep posting I must say:p

I guess if one of us is going to quit it might as well be me...I'm tired of going through this on each AntiTCC thread.

[legacy-Abilio_KID]

Well, this isn't going anywhere as I thought... The problem is still there. Right now I don't know if it's AntiTCC lagging me or not but it does contributes to the problem. I've been fidling with this **** and concluded the game takes too much un-necessary CPU. Now put some excessive checks allover the place and you get a lag fest.
Hmmm... where do I close this thread?...

[legacy-Gaal Dornik]

plz dont, its still evolving, give it a free death, or some days

[WarTourist]

This thread has run its debatably useful course.

Jeff