Yes again cheating - a summary

[legacy-F}{Strike}{F]

I see like 5 threads recently having to do with cheating, each stating a different target.

so what do we have to deal with out there?

- Traditional aimbot / Radars (protection will need to be updated frequently to keep these guys out with any consistancy)

- OpenGL wall hack ...

- Zoom with any weapon (An IG specialty)

- Invis / Cracked out model hack (See recon cit server)

- Netspeed hack

These have been out there for so long now.

I find it hard to believe that it is good business to do nothing about these things. What about someone who just installed the game and hops on a server only to get jacked by someone they can't see or blasted around every corner cuz the guy know's they are coming?

Would you want to continue playing that game or even consider buying it's sequel?

In UT1 we had Dr. Sin doing the CSHP on a regular basis to keep the botters out. What do we have now? Wombo has done a good job at trying to stop some of these huge holes that epic has left open. Unfotunately that program had also in it many other 'features' that people didn't like and is not installed on many servers. (I do think the new version with different levels is much better.)

Funny i look back at all the 'show me the demo' threads thinking : Yep... we got what was asked for.... a Demo.

gl hf

[legacy-woohah]

quit playing on pubs

[legacy-F}{Strike}{F]

Originally posted by woohah
quit playing on pubs

There's a great solution to the problem.

This is not a pub only problem.

[legacy-Main]

I don't have any choice but to play on pubs, because I can't access IRC, thanks to Nazi net policy on behalf of my university.

I can't be in a clan because of communication.

I can't get passwords to "pro" servers.

I can't be in a pug.

I depend on public servers, and if they lose to hacks, I have nothing.

So please, shut up.

[Kyllian]

Originally posted by F}{Strike}{F
- Netspeed hack I assuming this means a player setting up a bind to change their net settings at a stupid rate to cause other players to lag out
Hell...I'm just looking for a way to punch mine back up to 20000 when it gets knocked down(without having to go into settings > network

[legacy-hughbackov]

Originally posted by F}{Strike}{F
I find it hard to believe that it is good business to do nothing about these things. What about someone who just installed the game and hops on a server only to get jacked by someone they can't see or blasted around every corner cuz the guy know's they are coming?

Would you want to continue playing that game or even consider buying it's sequel?

Actually, as far as business is concerned, it is really a moot point. Even if there were no cheating, there are still plenty of people who are outstanding players because they are "twitch monkeys" with great reflexes, have top-of-the-line PC's and Internet connections, and/or are very practiced at the game. Almost all new users are "cannon fodder" whenever they try a new FPS game online. It simply comes with the territory. Expecting to step onto a public server and be instantly good at a game when there are so many others with more experience who have been playing it for years is unrealistic. Those who base their future purchase decisions on whether or not they are instantly good at a game online will quickly find themselves with no games to buy.

I don't condone cheating, but quite frankly it doesn't really matter to me if someone is cheating or not. I like a close, competitive game, and if I or my team is getting beaten badly after a couple of rounds, I will simply go find another place to play. There are plenty of servers available for UT2003, and cheating is not so rampant that all of the games are uncompetitive.

Now, if you are playing for brownie points (UT stats), then I suggest you find a new way to gauge your self-worth. Scores in a video game should not be it.

[legacy-gorlackcookies]

Originally posted by Kel
I assuming this means a player setting up a bind to change their net settings at a stupid rate to cause other players to lag out
Hell...I'm just looking for a way to punch mine back up to 20000 when it gets knocked down(without having to go into settings > network

just hit ~ then type netspeed (number) then it will change for you. it will save you time and effort.

[Kyllian]

Originally posted by gorlackcookies
just hit ~ then type netspeed (number) then it will change for you. it will save you time and effort. I'm mostly wondering if I could just bind "netspeed 20000" to a key.
If not, console works :D

[legacy-F}{Strike}{F]

Re: Netspeed hack
Manipulating pings is a problem when teams are trying to find a fair server.

Re Hugh:
Far from a mute point. You've never heard someone say they don't play CS because of the hacks? I know I have more than once. I see people leave the ladders and the game each day because of these problems. Your not caring if people cheat does condone the action.

[legacy-hughbackov]

Originally posted by F}{Strike}{F
Far from a mute point. You've never heard someone say they don't play CS because of the hacks? I know I have more than once. I see people leave the ladders and the game each day because of these problems.
Someone who would quit playing because of cheats real or imagined would also quit simply because he did not like to lose. The very types of people who measure themselves by their rank on a video game ladder are exactly the type of people who would quit. It is impossible to satisfy someone like that unless they almost always win.


Your not caring if people cheat does condone the action.
I just take a more realistic attitude towards it. First, I think cheaters should have the personal freedom to play the game in the manner they choose since this is not some professional sport with something more than bruised egos on the line. Sure, professional tournaments should have strict rules and restrictions, but that is why they are played on LAN's and not over the Internet. Also, server administrators already have the ability to ban players for any reason. Second, the fact is no client-side cheat can do anything more than a truely outstanding player can. Collision detection, game rules, scoring, etc. are all controlled by the server. Even radars only show the information which the server is already sending to the client. I haven't made or used a radar for UT2003, but I do like to play games which have a radar incorporated into them by default. However, server-side exploits like the invisible player should most definitely be fixed. Finally, determined and skilled cheaters like that ELF clan cannot be stopped. It is simply an exercise in futility. People who want to cheat will always find the means to do so since computers are so programmable.

[legacy-Guyver3]

yay and common sense wins again...........

[/sarcasm]

:sour:

[legacy-hughbackov]

Originally posted by Guyver3
yay and common sense wins again...........

Therein lies the problem. Although it's certainly possible to fix a computer program, it appears much more difficult to fix the players.

[legacy-Jelo]

Originally posted by hughbackov
Therein lies the problem. Although it's certainly possible to fix a computer program, it appears much more difficult to fix the players.

You rock man. I'm totally with you on your views. Nothing more to add.
Personally, I get to listen to my clanmates whining and complaining about their suspicions of other players cheating and it's usually because the other player is able to do things that they are not able to do themselves(or apparently aren't able to do).
I've learned and progressed enough to see that there is a learning curve and I expect that I have alot further to go before I can honestly tell if someone is cheating or not. Just because someone jumps around a corner and capps me doesn't mean they used a wall hack. Maybe they heard me or maybe they saw me go in one way and they went around to cut me off.
As a server admin who doesn't know how to code or tweak things all that well, I've just got all of the latest versions of anti-cheat measures and that's good enough to catch a majority of cheats out there.

[legacy-Shuri]

Originally posted by Kel
I'm mostly wondering if I could just bind "netspeed 20000" to a key.
If not, console works :D

I'm not sure which of these will work, but hey:

U=netspeed 20000
U=set engine.player configuredinternetspeed 20000

In User.ini. Or ingame, at console:

set input u netspeed 20000
set input u set engine.player...

[legacy-F}{Strike}{F]

Hugh:
Your logic is severely flawed. You grant cheaters rights above those who wish to play a fair game.

I started this thread so Epic can see what I deal with, as a customer who plays on pubs, 3 NA ladders, and a UT2K3 Ladder Admin in attempt to get some action taken.

If you don't care then why are you posting in this thread?

[legacy-hughbackov]

Originally posted by F}{Strike}{F
You grant cheaters rights above those who wish to play a fair game.

No, everyone has the right to play as they wish under my rules. Cheaters may choose to use a lot of computer assistance, while the vast majority of players may not. It has nothing to do with "fairness" because conditions are already not fair. Some players have top of the line PC's which run the game at great frame rates while others have systems which have a lower fps than the game in which they are playing (server's fps). Some players have really low-latency Internet connections while others have pings which are multiple times slower. Some players have very precise mice or game controllers while others don't. Finally, some players may have great dexterity and visual accuity while others may have arthritis or limited vision. The point is you never know who is on the other side of the keyboard when you are playing, and everyone is not entering the game from an equal position. If you, I , or anyone else does not like the way the match or rounds are turning out, we are certainly free to either leave or get rid of the players we don't like on the server if we have the ability. Life is not fair, the world is not fair, and trying to make the game fair in such a world with disparate conditions is a quixotic quest.



If you don't care then why are you posting in this thread?
I don't really care if players cheat. I DO care about changes made to the game which may negatively impact my enjoyment of it or which distract the developers from adding needed features and bug fixes. Developers have limited time and resources. Those wasted on futile attemps to stop cheating could be better spent fixing and improving the game in other ways or in creating new content for it.

So, if you want to wipe out cheating, grab your lance, mount your horse, and chase your windmills. Don't be surprised though if Epic does not join you.

[legacy-Oblivionbringa]

ut2k3 is a game, and like any game it has a set of rules you play by, but when cheaters dont play by the rules, it defeats the purpose of the game. For example if you playing a game football, playing by the rules, and someone comes in with plate armor with sharp steel spikes, you would not be able to tackle him, cuase he is breaking the rules, and theres nothing you can do to stop him, so the game is no longer fun. That is the most important point, cheaters take the fun out the game nomadder whether your playing seriously on a ladder/league or just casually. You can dance around it any way you like but the fact isnt going to change.

[legacy-Vinylmixer]

Dr Sin has said on here that to really crack down on the hacks he needs to be able to lockdown certain things (or something to that effect) but that can't be done without breaking compatabilty in a patch and obviously they don't want to have to break it twice in a short period of time.

With the last patch on it's way for 2k3 that will break network compatabilty and ready it for 2k4 it makes sense to wait and do it all then.

[Ultron]

I've never heard of a netspeed hack. Jacking up to 20k shouldn't do anything. You're going to get no more than 7K up or down anyways so it really doesn't need to be above 10k at any time. And I just leave it at 7k myself.

[legacy-hughbackov]

Originally posted by Oblivionbringa
ut2k3 is a game, and like any game it has a set of rules you play by, but when cheaters dont play by the rules, it defeats the purpose of the game.

That is where you are wrong. Players using client-side cheats ARE still playing by the game's rules because those rules are set by the server. These cheaters are simply using their computers to do things for them which they could be doing by hand. A player getting aiming assistance using a cheat is not necessarily going to be better than the other players in the game.


That is the most important point, cheaters take the fun out the game
A fun game and cheating are not mutually exclusive. And neither does the elimination of cheating ensure a fun game. First, some people may enjoy the challenge of playing against a player who is getting computer assistance/cheating. And, the cheater is no doubt having "fun" playing the way he is or he wouldn't be doing it. More importantly though, this example illustrates why cheating is not necessarily a bad thing and why eliminating it isn't going to miraculuously make the game fun for everyone. Suppose you were to play Kobe Bryant one-on-one in basketball. Assuming you do not have his skills at the game, he will defeat you soundly and easily. Will the game be fun for you? Not unless you just enjoy getting your ass kicked. It certainly won't be entertaining for Kobe. Cheating isn't the problem here. It's the mismatch which actually causes the game to be boring and frustrating. Now, if there were some magic potion which could help you shoot more accurately, you could take that, and your basketball game against Kobe would be much more challenging and entertaining for both of you. Would you be cheating? It depends on your perspective. You would still be playing the game itself by the established rules of play. Does it ultimately matter that you are getting assistance while Kobe is using his innate talent? Not if it made the game more fun and challenging for both of you and if that was the point of the game.

So, there are cases like mismatches where cheating by some players can actually be a good thing as far as the quality of the match is concerned. Admittedly professional games and tournaments where there is actually something tangible at stake shouldn't allow cheating. But, that is why they are played under much more equitable conditions on a LAN using identical PC's for all players and with close supervision.

[legacy-hughbackov]

Originally posted by Ultron
You're going to get no more than 7K up or down anyways so it really doesn't need to be above 10k at any time. And I just leave it at 7k myself.
My understanding is that the server's setting determines how much of its total bandwidth each client can possibly receive. The client's netspeed setting just determines how much of that maximum rate the server will actually send. Using a plumbing analogy, the server is like the waterworks and sets the total possible water pressure to the home. The client's netspeed setting is like the faucet. How far you turn it determines the rate of flow. But, you will never get more than the waterworks (server) is set to give you.


I've never heard of a netspeed hack. Jacking up to 20k shouldn't do anything.
I don't see how it could either unless the server is set to give each client more than 20K/s.

Technically if a client set its netspeed to 0, that might prevent it from receiving and maybe sending game data and commands from and to the server. In that case, the player might be able to move about the map and then after returning his netspeed to normal appear to have teleported to a new location. However, if the server were set to snap the client back into its determination of the player's position and did not accept the client's position as its actual position, manipulating netspeed in this manner would do nothing. I know some games which are vulnerable to this type of exploit, but I don't think Unreal engine games are.

[legacy-Guyver3]

netspeed hack = this:

enemy attackers grabs flag ( currently using netspeed 10000, adsl connection)

as soon as he grabs flag, he drops his netspeed to 1000, this causes him to warp/lag, and make him a harder target.

runs like crap back to his base to cap, resumes normal netspeed 10000.

MODOSUtils is great because it shows every players netspeed and packetloss in the F1 scoreboard, so admins can check on false accusations of packetloss and any netspeed adjustments during a match.

and hugh, go read the EULA m8, you always tiptoe around this one as its pretty concrete with regards to cheating.

cheaters are scum plain and simple, regardless of what they cheat at.

[Kyllian]

I just use it to bump my netspeed up to 20000 from 7000.
Figure let 2k3 try to get the best out of my connection

Shuri, I think I tried this before "set engine.player configuredinternetspeed 20000" and I don't think it worked

[legacy-Guyver3]

internet servers will only allow netspeed upto 10000

you can only use 20000 when the "OptimiseForLAN=" is set to True.

then a settign of 20000 is allowed.

the Unreal netcode will 99.9% of the time NEVER send out more than 7k/sec of info per client (netspeed 7000). The only reason we set 10000 as a standard for internet servers is to allow for those rare instances where it does send more.

there is no need for anymore than 10000.

only on a LAN environment is it possible to take advnatage of 20000 netspeed, for obvious reasons.

[legacy-Nexx_au]

haha kel i just read your sig for the first time :)

:up:

[Kyllian]

Originally posted by Guyver3
internet servers will only allow netspeed upto 10000

you can only use 20000 when the "OptimiseForLAN=" is set to True.

then a settign of 20000 is allowed.

the Unreal netcode will 99.9% of the time NEVER send out more than 7k/sec of info per client (netspeed 7000). The only reason we set 10000 as a standard for internet servers is to allow for those rare instances where it does send more.

there is no need for anymore than 10000.

only on a LAN environment is it possible to take advnatage of 20000 netspeed, for obvious reasons. Doesn't hurt to set it at that anyway.


Originally posted by Nexx_au
haha kel i just read your sig for the first time :)

:up: :D [spookymusic]Yes... Imagine when you won't even have to touch your mouse... you will be able move it with your MIND...[spookymusic]

[legacy-Guyver3]

oesn't hurt to set it at that anyway.


your not listening, you cant set your netspeed higher than the servers MaxClientRate setting, which will either be 7000 (default) or 10000 (or somewhere in between 7000-1000 if adjusted by the serveradmin)

when u join a server , if your netspeed is higher than the MaxClientRate of the server your netspeed will automatically be dropped to match that figure.

[legacy-hughbackov]

Originally posted by Guyver3
and hugh, go read the EULA m8, you always tiptoe around this one as its pretty concrete with regards to cheating.
Epic can put whatever it likes into the EULA. That doesn't make it legally enforceable since UCITA is only law in two U.S. states. If push ever came to legal shove, Epic would most likely lose on that provision in court. I certainly would sue Epic if it happened to me.

[legacy-hughbackov]

Originally posted by Guyver3
enemy attackers grabs flag ( currently using netspeed 10000, adsl connection)

as soon as he grabs flag, he drops his netspeed to 1000, this causes him to warp/lag, and make him a harder target.

The Unreal engine should not work like that then. Clients should send movement commands not position information tot the server. By using movement commands, a client who lags will just stand still during the lag while the server doesn't get his commands to go forward, left, right, etc. Then, when the reconnection to the client is made, he will warp back to his still position on the server. The server does not teleport him to his current position on his own screen. Yes, this does severely hinder high latency clients, but it is a much more secure way to conducting the game. There are other ways to cause artificial packet loss on a client besides using console commands in the game. Using movement commands or server enforced player positions would eliminate this as a cheat and an advantage to truely high latency players.

[legacy-TheNeoninja]

Originally posted by hughbackov
Epic can put whatever it likes into the EULA. That doesn't make it legally enforceable since UCITA is only law in two U.S. states. If push ever came to legal shove, Epic would most likely lose on that provision in court. I certainly would sue Epic if it happened to me.

Well, not really mate.
You see, when you installed UT2k3, you agreed not to cheat and could be prosecuted for doing so. So now you are legally binded to that contract.

gg

[legacy-hughbackov]

Originally posted by Neoninja
Well, not really mate.
You see, when you installed UT2k3, you agreed not to cheat and could be prosecuted for doing so.
You obviously know very little about the law especially U.S. law. Violating a software license agreement is not a statutory criminal offense in the U.S. Sure, an act which happens to violate a term of a specific license agreement may also happen to be a criminal act (for example certain types of copyright infringement), but the two are not mutally inclusive by statute, i.e. violating a term of a software license agreement is not necessarily a criminal act.


So now you are legally binded to that contract.
gg
Again, there is a ton of case law pertaining to disputes over the terms of software license agreements. And, although courts have upheld that such agreements can be legally binding, it is not a foregone conclusion nor are all terms always binding especially when they conflict with existing statues such as consumer protection acts and common law. As with all contracts, the devil is in the details. Lest you have any doubt that such agreements are disputable, most software license agreements specify the jurisdiction in which the terms of the agreement are applicable and in which they may be disputed. However, even these provisions are not binding if they are in conflict with the local laws of the disputing party.

The bottom line is the same as I wrote above: Just because something is written in a software license agreement, that does not make it legally binding especially something as nebulous as that cheating provision.

[legacy-F}{Strike}{F]

lmao

Too funny.

I wouldn't want to play in your football league!

You talk about rights and laws but totally miss the point.

You have boiled Dr.SiNs past works and current job as pointless.
You obviously have no desire for competition.

If you haven't noticed the game makers are taking more and more steps to keep cheaters out. Epic hired Dr.Sin and just take a look at the whole Valve/Steam creation :o .

I'm sure it would be such a blast if everyone just played in godmode.

I think Alice Cooper said it best:
"Hey hey hey hey, hey stupid!"

gg :bulb:

ty for keeping the thread going btw

[legacy-hughbackov]

Originally posted by F}{Strike}{F
I wouldn't want to play in your football league!
LOL! You equate a real-world sport whose players and playing field have physical limitations and restrictions to a video game played on immensely programmable devices of disparate capabilities via a fickle medium with varying speeds. If you can't see the inherent differences and expectations between a real football game played on a real field by actual people and one played via computers over the Internet, then there is simply no reasoning with you.


You talk about rights and laws but totally miss the point.
Your only real point is that you have unrealistic expectations and misguided priorities. Yes, there are people who cheat in computer games played via the Internet. What do you expect for such a game played via such a medium? If you didn't judge your self-worth by your score in such a game, you wouldn't care about cheaters. If winning at a video game really means that much to you, play in professional tournaments. Those have all of the safeguards you so desire, and at least there is a tangible reward if you win.


You have boiled Dr.SiNs past works and current job as pointless.
While Dr.SiN is no doubt a fantastic programmer, look at the state of his past work for both UT and UT2003. It has been compromised. That speaks for itself.


You obviously have no desire for competition.
Actually I am very competitive. I simply pick venues where I know the playing field is not inherently "fixed." I also don't become emotional overinvested in trivial contests which have no real impact on the big picture of my life.


If you haven't noticed the game makers are taking more and more steps to keep cheaters out.
If that is so, why are you b*tching?


just take a look at the whole Valve/Steam creation
The principle design of Steam is to streamline and control software distribution and use to maximize profits. It is much more about providing an inexpensive means of software distribution and reducing piracy than cheating.


I'm sure it would be such a blast if everyone just played in godmode.
No client-side cheat will give a player god-mode/invulnerability. You really have no clue regarding the points I made above. I suggest you go back and read them very slowly since you seem to be so obtuse.


I think Alice Cooper said it best:
As yes, a quote from one of the great philosophers in the history of human civilization. I guess you couldn't think of anything by Plato, Descartes, Voltaire, or James. Hell even Will Rogers would have been more erudite. LOL! Considering the source, I'm not insulted by it.



ty for keeping the thread going btw

Since you seem so incapable of rational thought, I won't bother anymore.

[legacy-Guyver3]

nce you seem so incapable of rational thought, I won't bother anymore.


but you will bother, and you know it.

i have to admit, your obviously a very intelligent person, and by your various comment in various threads here your either a psychology wannabe or a student in it or your actually qualified in it.

but what dissapoints me is your attitude, you seem to be using this forum as some kind of 'experiment' for some thesis your probably doing, by arguing 'for' and not taking any kind of active stance against cheating (regardless of form/sport/) purely to incite and to psycho-analyse us all. whether you are actually doing a thesis or you just do it to satisfy some warped sense of humour i dont know, and your unlikely to tell us anyway. but i find it rather dissapointing that a 'supposed' member of of this community and a 'supposed' competitive player/person has to reduce his replies and whole standpoint to a psychology study.

[legacy-hughbackov]

Originally posted by Guyver3
but you will bother, and you know it.
Actually I would have waited awhile until the next cycle of threads about cheating appeared. However, I think its time to pack it in on the subject if I have become predictable. Those who complain about cheating though should think about being more open-minded and not so intractable.


but what dissapoints me is your attitude, you seem to be using this forum as some kind of 'experiment' for some thesis your probably doing, by arguing 'for' and not taking any kind of active stance against cheating (regardless of form/sport/) purely to incite and to psycho-analyse us all...i find it rather dissapointing that a 'supposed' member of of this community and a 'supposed' competitive player/person has to reduce his replies and whole standpoint to a psychology study.
Don't take the opinions I have espoused as disingenious because you question my motivations for making them. The fact is that those who persistently complain about cheating could certainly use a fresh perspective that they normally will not get in a forum of predominantly like-minded individuals like this one. It's not healthy to be so fixated on something so trivial at the expense of larger issues in life.

[legacy-Guyver3]

It's not healthy to be so fixated on something so trivial at the expense of larger issues in life.


i think your over trivialising it tbh.

ppl dont passionately argue against cheating (in any form) at the 'expense' of real life issues, they do it 'in conjunction' with real life issues. cheating is a part of real life after all. You seem to have this issue with level playing fields etc and their relationship to acceptablility of cheating as if somehow their related.

imho their not. cheating is cheating, whether it be in a real sport or a virtual sport, or whether it be business scams, fraud, etc etc. it is only in your opinion that virtual/internet games are trivial and uninportant, and to a certain degree with regards to greater issues like politics/taxes/feeing safe in your own home etc etc, then yes online gaming is trivial by comparison, BUT when i do play online whether in a clan match or simply for fun on a public server i have every right to be able to play on 'as level a field as possible' and that includes no cheating/aimbotting/hacks etc.

As much as ppl who code cheats have every right to use their PC's the way they want to and to infect servers with their 'programmed' skillz, we also by counter-balance have every right to try and stop them.

trivialising online gaming into something meaningless and something that shouldnt be taken seriously is a very narrow minded attitude and lacks any empathy or consideration for all hte clan players out there who put just as much work/dedication/practice into their chosen 'virtual' sport as real sportspeople do. simply because we dont push our physical bodies doesnt make our sport any less valid.

check out my poll (http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=316681) about cheaters, you'll see that your stance on cheating is absolutely the minority, and im sure if the same poll was done for every other multi-player game you would have teh same results.

[legacy-the_grey_man]

I'm sure hughbackov is saying the same old things he always goes on & on & on & & on about, same crap different day.

As he’s on my ignore list it don’t bother me.

I personally choose to that option because no matter how "logical" or how much he believes it, I know from my experience his ideals do not stand up in real life. He’s just trolling

As to the people who say this type of thread or name and shame threads only feeds the cheaters and give them what they want. I say don’t bury your head in the sand but we should act against this behaviour by bringing it out into the open something maybe done about it. TBH it dont look like anything will at the moment.