UT2003 a flop? Nahh.. (and on Epic as we-don't-give-a-sh't-about-gamers developers)

[legacy-danseko]

It's so funny to see the fanatic anti-UT2003'ers and pro-UT2003ers
come with their extreme/over-the-top "this gaem sukx and is a
total flopp" or the fans' "this game is a success, everybody loves
it (and those who don't, shut the f*ck up or we'll stone you to death!!!)"


Let's be realistic here:


For one, this game was far from the expectations of the hype
one year ago, I was part of the hyped crowd myself. The expected
flubber tech, the "e-sport" angle which made us expect a far more
"gamer"-oriented product, etc, and the expected merging of
players from CS, Q3, etc.
No, this never happened, and yes, Epic's total lack of respect
for gamers and yearlong UT players, resulting in what with
TTMs help ended up as just "OK" gameplay, was very disappointing at first.


The positive side:

However, this game has sold a lot, and is undoubtedly, sponsorships
included, from Epic's point of view an economical success.

And there are more than enough gamers who enjoy it too:
UT2003 is in the top 10 of CSports.net's most played online
games and is probably secured a place in gaming history.

Despite it's flaws, I play & enjoy it every day, and (of course)
want as many as possible to play it.


Lastly, I want to review Epic as a developing team:
They made UT2003 without consulting a testcrowd consisting of
gamers/fans, which resulted in TTM having to save the whole game.

Epic seems more fascinated with the modding and mapping
community than with the actual gamers, last seen in this ridicoulus
Nvidia contest. How about spending some of that cash to build
up the actual f*cking gaming community? (...)

These, and a whole list of other things Epic haven't/have done (U2
*cough*), has given them a horrible reputation among gamers,
and is undoubtedly going to impair Epic's income potential the
next three or so years, first seen flopping with U2, and probably
again with UT2004.


Let's hope Epic can get it back into a professional attitude some
day, because we all love the Unreal franchise; dodging and the
shock combo - gaming gems.


So.. was UT2003 a disappointment IRL to last years hype? Yes.
Was it a flop? No.
Was it a success? No.
Does it matter to discuss this when Epic don't give a sh't anyway?
NO.

So let's just play the game; all over it's become better than UT ever was.

[legacy-Mort_Q]

Originally posted by danseko
Blah blah blah

Feel better!?

[legacy-FLAGEL]

edit that post befor u get majory flamed(hint about the U2 part).

[Kyllian]

You sound like one of those ppl who constantly whine "Oh, this game is teh suxxors unles u make it just teh way I want it! Cuz this weapon is over powered, this one is unbalanced, this one is too spammy, this one isn't accurate enough, this one isn't the color I like, this game is nothing like UT. Epic!! Fix it or I'm gonna whine and whine and whine until you do!"

Has it occured to you some people like it the way it is and realize it's just a game. It is not life and death if it isn't perfect.
2k3 is never going to satisfy everyone, so shut up and play already!!
If you don't like it, go play cheater-strike...
:mad: :up:

[legacy-danseko]

Feel better!?

You know, I thought - if I reviewed UT2003 from a neutral
standing point, it's an OK game, it was disappointing IRL to the
hype, and Epics attitude towards fans - would anyone manage
to be angry over a neutral, objective standing point?

So for your info:

You managed to get annoyed over a neutral post (probably
because you're stupid enough to pass it for an anti-UT2003 rant)!
Nice reading skills!

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by Kel
You sound like one of those ppl who constantly whine "Oh, this game is teh suxxors unles u make it just teh way I want it! Cuz this weapon is over powered, this one is unbalanced, this one is too spammy, this one isn't accurate enough, this one isn't the color I like, this game is nothing like UT. Epic!! Fix it or I'm gonna whine and whine and whine until you do!"

Has it occured to you some people like it the way it is and realize it's just a game. It is not life and death if it isn't perfect.
2k3 is never going to satisfy everyone, so shut up and play already!!
If you don't like it, go play cheater-strike...
:mad: :up:

This is my conclusion:
So let's just play the game; all over it's become better than UT.
Does that sound like a whiner-post? Hmm???

If you're going to reply..
Read the post.

PS: I hate counter-strike.

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by FLAGEL
edit that post befor u get majory flamed(hint about the U2 part).

Hi Flagel! Hey! Where's that NW duel? ;)

I've been flamed before and don't really care much about it, but
what did you mean exactly?
Are there actually someone who think U2 was an above average game?
I surely hope not..

[legacy-GoldBoxer]

Well actually the game did flop and if you can't see that then god help you. :confused: ;)

Was the game a total failure? - not really. They might have made good money selling the game but they damaged their reputation severely and may have very bad sales in the future due to word of mouth from mostly disastisfied customers.

Is the game really in the Top 10 games online? :confused: The trickery of making bots count as players in order to make it look like player numbers are high is no longer fooling people and have actually damaged the game. This game is probably no longer in the top 10 played games online, and if it is when bots are not counted it won't before long :eek: .

Is there a lesson to be learned from all this? Of course. Listen to the UT crowd that complained when the UT2003 demo was released and don't bad mouth those who talk negatively about your game but listen to what they have to say :D

Will UT2004 save the franchise? :confused: . Other games are coming out that look great and sound like they will play great and the majority of players that dislike UT2003 will look at those games first. UT2004 will need to look great and Play great right from the demo...:p

[legacy-FLAGEL]

Originally posted by danseko
Hi Flagel! Hey! Where's that NW duel? ;)

I've been flamed before and don't really care much about it, but
what did you mean exactly?
Are there actually someone who think U2 was an above average game?
I surely hope not..

What I mean is that U2 was done by Legend Entertainment and not Epic, only the gfx engine was given to LE from Epic.

The NW duel, nah, I've changed my mind. :D

[legacy-Raz]

I agree wiht you post, danseko..

But when UT2003 came out i wasnt dissapointed at all!
I loved it... But thers'e a lack of ppl playing...

[legacy-Agent-X(UK)]

Originally posted by danseko
....which resulted in TTM having to save the whole game.


OMG :haha: :haha: :haha:

Your one of these "pro" gamers arnt you ?

[legacy-NachoUK]

Originally posted by danseko
For one, this game was far from the expectations of the hype
one year ago, I was part of the hyped crowd myself. The expected
flubber tech, the "e-sport" angle which made us expect a far more
"gamer"-oriented product, etc, and the expected merging of
players from CS, Q3, etc.
No, this never happened, and yes, Epic's total lack of respect
for gamers and yearlong UT players, resulting in what with
TTMs help ended up as just "OK" gameplay, was extremely disappointing.

OK, you said to be realistic, and then start ranting that Epic have zero respect for the community... last I checked, a dozen patches and a bonus pack, posting in the community forum == respect. Granted, they could have done some things better, but generally I think they've done pretty well...



However, this game has sold a lot, and is undoubtedly, sponsorships
included, from Epic's point of view an economical success.

And there are more than enough gamers who enjoy it too:
UT2003 is in the top 10 of CSports.net's most played online
games and is probably secured a place in gaming history.

I play & enjoy it every day, and (of course) want as many as possible to play it.

Then that's what you should concentrate on, enjoy the game for what it is... a great multiplayer online fragging game. Yes, UT2k3 has it's problems, and hopefully Epic are going to address some of them with UT2k4.



Lastly, I want to review Epic as a developing team:
They made UT2003 without consulting a testcrowd consisting of
gamers/fans, which resulted in TTM having to save the whole game.

TTM saved nothing. It's a nice mod, no doubts about that, but I'm pretty sure that we'd still have plenty of servers and players without it.



Epic seems more fascinated with the modding and mapping
community than with the actual gamers, last seen in this ridicoulus
Nvidia contest. How about spending some of that cash to build
up the actual f*cking gaming community? Idiots.

Right, now this is pure selfishness from your part. The mapping modding community is probably as large as the gaming community itself, there are people who make content to UT in their own time, some don't even play the game. Epic are helping these guys, and rewarding them for some of the best 3rd party stuff available... who knows, some of these guys may end up working for Epic or other devs in the future.

Supporting the modding community is a damned important part of Epic's work, and just because some people have issues with the game they seem to think that all Epic's attention should be aimed at them :rolleyes:



These, and a whole list of other things Epic have done (U2
*cough*), has given them a horrible reputation among gamers,
and is undoubtedly going to impair Epic's income potential the
next three or so years, first seen flopping with U2, and probably
again with UT2004.

I'm not 100% sure, but I'd say that the blame for U2 lies squarely with Legend. It's not a bad game by any means, but it WAS rushed, it WAS too short, and it COULD have been a let of a lot more.

Also, considering EA are still selling their ****ty wares, I think Epic could screw over the whole community and still sell copies... the general public are idiots (sorry to say :sour: ) Judging by the fact that Epic do support the community (to an extent) and launch these modding competitions shows that they do care about the community, anyone can see that, some just choose to ignore it.




So.. was UT2003 a disappointment IRL to the hype? Yes.
Was it a flop? No.
Was it a success? No.
Does it matter to discuss this when Epic don't give a sh't anyway?
NO.

So let's just play the game; all over it's become better than UT ever was.

Yes, lets play the game. We don't need anymore Epic bashing, do you think they are going to keep listening to a community that does nothing but bash them? Nothing wrong with constructive criticism, but people turning round and saying that UT2k3 was a flop aren't helping anyone...

[Mysterial]

Just ignore it. Every one or two months danseko comes in, does this, and disappears for another month or two.

[legacy-Mr Evil]

Originally posted by danseko
Epic seems more fascinated with the modding and mapping
community than with the actual gamers, last seen in this ridicoulus
Nvidia contest. How about spending some of that cash to build
up the actual f*cking gaming community? Idiots.
I think they've got the right idea there. All of the games that I have ever played long-term I have done so purely because of 3rd party content. I have never played any one game for more than a couple of months with only standard content because it gets boring, no matter how good the game is. It is modders/mappers who really keep a game going after that point.

How else could they spend the money anyway? Buy everyone a faster computer? Pay for more advertising? Gild Gorge's armour? I don't think there is anything else that they could do that would benefit the whole community in such a direct way. The contest has encouraged a lot of new people to take up modding and develop their talents in ways they wouldn't have otherwise, producing mods that can be enjoyed by all UT2003 players.

[legacy-CH405]

I dont mind you criticising ut2k3 danseko,
but ut2k4 still has a chance to bring the community to equilibrium.
ut2k3 may not have lived up to the hype.
Heck one thing everyone here has to realise is that, not every game is gonna be like halflife! I mean jeez, back in the day when we were all waiting on ut2k3, we all expected it to become bigger than HL!!:eek:


On the topic of ut2k3, tbh, I haven't been playing online for the past couple of weeks because ive had exams. Now that I've finished, i thought, "yeah im gonna get back online and go pro!". But I started playing a botmatch n found myself getting stuck on practically every other static mesh! (oh and i was playing on godlike with Mysterial's Superbots :p). Well, thats the thing, I thought, damn I have gone really really sh1t! Coz I was loosing practically everytime! Then, I started another 1v1 on DM-Gael. For some reason, I ended up winning 25-6! then i was like WTF!!!!!

Ehem, anyways, back to the topic of focus, I think that games don't need to be set a standard. They become what they become. In the end, no one can control that except for the end users (us).

Also, one thing im really starting to get annoyed about is that all these 'PRO's' think they know whats good/bad for the game.
Listen up: You play the game. You don't make it. Get that through your skulls!
If your so complaintative about this game, go make your own!
When Q2 came out, you didn't have hundreds of PRO's making the decisions! It was purely down to the game developers!
So this time, please. Lets leave ut2k4 to Epic/DE. I know we all want it to be a success. But in the end, it is after all down to them.
They decide whether the game rules or not.

[legacy-Happy_Hamburger]

Cant you Epic fanboys accept criticism?

you wont get anywhere in life if you dont, time to sign on the dole chaps!

[legacy-Agent-X(UK)]

Originally posted by Happy_Hamburger
Cant you Epic fanboys accept criticism?

you wont get anywhere in life if you dont, time to sign on the dole chaps!

There is a difference between criticism and posting the same over and over again (and from the same person), which can only cause a flame war.

[legacy-moppel]

Originally posted by Happy_Hamburger
Cant you Epic fanboys accept criticism?

you wont get anywhere in life if you dont, time to sign on the dole chaps!
Every idiot thinks he has something of importance to tell. So if you want to get anywhere in life you carefully choose the people to listen to.

[legacy-Mack22]

I don't think it flopped nearly as bad as ut2k4 is gonna flop. UT2004 looks like a patch that epic is trying to make us pay $40 for. Half Life 2 is going to totally blow it out of the water.

[legacy-S0undwav3]

I just see whining.
Every new game that comes out, there's a large group that love to do nothing but b1tch and complain.
It's happened with a lot of the recent games, and will continue to happen with soon to be released games: HL2, DE2, D3, etc.
Doesn't mean these games aren't good, or that the developers don't care, there just seems to be this group of angry gamers.

:p

As far as it flopping, I do want more playing but as long as my favorites(9 of them) have players.....I couldn't care too much.
I still don't get how promoting a mod contest which seems to have several groups developing high quality mods is a bad thing?
:confused:

[legacy-./\.]

Originally posted by Agent-X(UK)
OMG :haha: :haha: :haha:

Your one of these "pro" gamers arnt you ?
You have to be a "pro" to realise that TTM owns? rolf. Nice logic.

[legacy-NachoUK]

Originally posted by Mack22
I don't think it flopped nearly as bad as ut2k4 is gonna flop. UT2004 looks like a patch that epic is trying to make us pay $40 for. Half Life 2 is going to totally blow it out of the water.

Half Life 2 is going to be played for 12 hours and then put back on the shelf for the majority of people... for the others, they will wait for the modding community to make a good multiplayer game out of it and play that.

Don't get me wrong, HL2 is gonna be a great experience, but I don't hold much hope that it'll last me as long as Ut2k4 will...

[legacy-moppel]

Originally posted by ./\.
You have to be a "pro" to realise that TTM owns?
Well, you might also just be blind and deaf and thus in desperate need for bright skins and hit sounds.

[BeerNut]

Is it me, or do threads like this come in waves?...

It seems like every 2 months or so, the "This game failed!, blah, blah...." threads run rampid, and then tend to stop for a while.

Maybe it is just me.
Strange:confused:

[legacy-nuclearfusion]

Originally posted by danseko
resulting in what with
TTMs help ended up as just "OK" gameplay, was [B]extremely disappointing.

I stopped reading, then looked up, realized it was you, danseko. This made me realize, "Hey, all he does is bi*ch and try to forcefully get people to use TTM."

So, i hope you feel better inside now that you've let that all out. :)

[legacy-FLAGEL]

Originally posted by nuclearfusion
I stopped reading, then looked up, realized it was you, danseko. This made me realize, "Hey, all he does is bi*ch and try to forcefully get people to use TTM.

So, i hope you feel better inside now that you've let that all out. :)

So where does the quote end?:weird:

[legacy-nuclearfusion]

Meh. That was un-needed, and it made me feel like I needed to go back to grammar school. So I'm going. Bye! :D

[legacy-If you see kay]

hi:)

no flames from me today

Has everybody got the e3 500mb presentation of hl-2 yet?

what is ttm?

ut>2k3

[legacy-vhx]

Wow, its sad to see so many b*tchers, you have no idea what you are blabbing about. In MMORPGS your lucky to even get 30% of what they promise, go complain their. Here I should list a few:
Eve Online, Earth and Beyond, Ragnarok Online, Final Fantasy XI, StarWars Galaxies, etc. I could go on and on.

Epic is one of the most dedicated people i've seen they released patches every few weeks, even had 2 bonus packs out already. I mean it takes most MMORPG's to get 1 patch out every month, and they barely add anything. So please know what your talking about before you go complaining to companies that they don't give you enough, they gave you the game, technically they don't have to give you anything more, but they do, so zip the lip. [this isnt aimed at anyone imparticular, but only to the whiners]

[Logy]

Originally posted by BeerNut
Is it me, or do threads like this come in waves?...

It seems like every 2 months or so, the "This game failed!, blah, blah...." threads run rampid, and then tend to stop for a while.

Maybe it is just me.
Strange:confused:

Yeah, it's just like the rage-infected zombies from 28 Days Later.

They come in groups, shrieking, angry, and making no sense at all.

[legacy-eldiablo2003]

Originally posted by Mack22
I don't think it flopped nearly as bad as ut2k4 is gonna flop. UT2004 looks like a patch that epic is trying to make us pay $40 for. Half Life 2 is going to totally blow it out of the water.

Moron

[legacy-Raz]

Originally posted by NachoUK
Half Life 2 is going to be played for 12 hours and then put back on the shelf for the majority of people... for the others, they will wait for the modding community to make a good multiplayer game out of it and play that.

Don't get me wrong, HL2 is gonna be a great experience, but I don't hold much hope that it'll last me as long as Ut2k4 will...

This is going in my sig! :sour: :up:

[legacy-LovEcOlt]

Originally posted by danseko
You managed to get annoyed over a neutral post (probably
because you're stupid enough to pass it for an anti-UT2003 rant)!
Nice reading skills! [/B]

I'm not at all interested in the content of your original post (subject's been done to death by now, no?) but the reply i quoted above made me laugh. The only statement less neutral than your starting post, danseko, would be to crash Epic's offices and fart on CliffyB's head. You really don't have a clue... But: nice writing skills!

[legacy-Sphinx]

wise/nice words danseko :)

[legacy-If you see kay]

the main difference with hl 2 and 2k3/2k4 is
HL has a HUGE!online fanbase and huge modding communities that WILL create multiplayer mods for it,so I doubt ittl be collecting dust like 2k3 did.
2k3 mods......blah
U2 mods.......ha
ut allready comes internet ready and still theres no good mods.
look at all the great mods for hl1
go take a peak at hl online stats if you dont believe me.
Id say cs2 will be out before I finish the game.
2k3 on the other hand epic has to pay you guys $1 million to get new mods out of yall:haha:

[legacy-iboo]

I loved this game when I first played it. I did expect it to be alot like the original UT... when it turned out to be a different game I was disappointed, but I got over that fairly quickly. If I wanted to play the original UT I would playing it right now. If I didn't like this game I would have moved on my now, but I stayed because I actually like the game now.

[legacy-Raz]

Originally posted by If you see kay
the main difference with hl 2 and 2k3/2k4 is
HL has a HUGE!online fanbase and huge modding communities that WILL create multiplayer mods for it,so I doubt ittl be collecting dust like 2k3 did.
2k3 mods......blah
U2 mods.......ha
ut allready comes internet ready and still theres no good mods.
look at all the great mods for hl1
go take a peak at hl online stats if you dont believe me.
Id say cs2 will be out before I finish the game.
2k3 on the other hand epic has to pay you guys $1 million to get new mods out of yall:haha:

If You See Gay, if you had the IQ to acctually look out on you 'opinions', you would notify that your post just dousent just make you look stupid, it's also wrong.


UT2003 has mods like www.deathball.com , sure, you will probablly say that this mod is 'Gay' since you dont like it.

And Prodeum is a great one too. And its simpply created.

And we have the Star Wars MOD coming soon. Looking great!

There are also about 5 other WW2 MODs going on. Im sure they will be done soon.

And we have UnWheel, but its not the best one though.


I have to admit, CS is a big-played game.
And Hl is a great game indeed. However, Epic serves to the fact that they can get even MORE colagereble 3rd arty MOD's and other stuff.
Maybe you are forgetting, or maybe your'e just stupid, but isn't CS a MOD?

"Ofcource, that's just my opinion, i could be wrong."

[legacy-NachoUK]

Originally posted by Raz
This is going in my sig! :sour: :up:

I'm honoured :)

[legacy-SealClubber]

Originally posted by danseko
all over it's become better than UT ever was. [/B]


Yea, thats why I see UT players going back to UT on a daily basis! :rolleyes:


UT > all

Its just like in the movies....

Twhen they make a big hit movie, everyone says they would love to see a sequel... but when that sequel comes out - its so overhyped, its a letdown! :o


UT2003 was that letdown...

to the people who expected gameplay to be the same...

to the people who expected more great maps...

to the people who upgraded their computers to find out that they still have trouble getting 40 fps...

to the people who were expecting a bug free game that required minimal patching...

to the people... the poor poor people...

:sour:

[legacy-SealClubber]

Originally posted by If you see kay
the main difference with hl 2 and 2k3/2k4 is
HL has a HUGE!online fanbase

only because of counter strike

without CS, half life is nothing but a good single player game :haha:

[legacy-Cold Dog]

1. Half-life DM sucked. The netcode sucked, too.

2. Half-life didn't take off online till CS.

3. Probably more than half the CS'ers couldn't play UT2K3 if they wanted to. They'd have to upgrade their P2/300 and TNT card...

4. UT2K3 is neither a flop nor a roaring success. Somewhere in the middle of the pack if you want to compare it to other games....

^^^JMO's

I liked Q3 better than UT so I played Q3 for 3 years. I like UT2K3 better than Q3 so I've been playing it since it came out. I didn't pay attention to any of UT2K3's hype so I wasn't dissappointed with what I got - rather I accepted it as it is....

[legacy-If you see kay]

yes cs was a mod:rolleyes:
a great mod that actually has tons of ppl still playing it!
rather than all these 23ghey mods that nobody plays or arent even released , or simply mods copying after whats popular.

I wouldnt say deathballs gay simply because of the fact that its not released to the us yet.
check your link.
The star wars mod sounds cool but I dont see it lifting 2k3 out of its ashes.
ww2 is overdone, the thing thats so great about ut is that its UNREAL!
bf1942 will stomp mudholes in these real life 2k3 mods.

unwheel:haha: :up: yea good 1 bro :rolleyes:

If You See Gay, if you had the IQ to acctually look out on you 'opinions', you would notify that your post just dousent just make you look stupid, it's also wrong.

who looks stoopid?
plz remeber im the flamemaster next time you call me gay:sour:

[legacy-If you see kay]

Originally posted by SealClubber
only because of counter strike

without CS, half life is nothing but a good single player game :haha:
and with a groundbreaking game like hl2 just imagine the possibilities..........

[legacy-S0undwav3]

As far as tournament style FPSs go, UT2k3 is perfect IMO.
Weapon balance, the movement capabilities, as well as bringing in a true defensive aspect(shield) to what is other wise an offense dominated genre

Can we at least give UT2k3/4 until the mods from the contest are released.
Just me maybe, but I've never been so 'giddy' anticipating several professional looking mods for one game.


Can we please not compare HL2(single player) to multiplayer games.
That being said, I've had my pre-order since the week after E3.
:p

[Frogger]

Originally posted by danseko
Let's be realistic here:


rubbish....and TTM = teh suxor

[Mysterial]

Originally posted by If you see kay
and with a groundbreaking game like hl2 just imagine the possibilities..........

.....for fans to bash it on the HL forums just like here, regardless of whether the game is actually any good or not.

[legacy-./\.]

Originally posted by moppel
Well, you might also just be blind and deaf and thus in desperate need for bright skins and hit sounds.
:rolleyes: Brightskins and hitsounds are TWO of the MANY features of TTM.

[Ultron]

My only problems with this game is:

a) too many servers with bots. Bots should be off by default, as they were in UT.

b) a few of the maps have too many geometry trappings which hang me up when I move. I like realistic maps but I don't want to be caught up on too many things.

c) too many servers stick to one map, or 2-3 maps in a rotation. Many of the good maps that came in the game or in the bonus packs never get played, because too many admins just gotta have Anubis or Citadel up - only.

[legacy-Raz]

Originally posted by If you see kay
yes cs was a mod:rolleyes:
a great mod that actually has tons of ppl still playing it!
rather than all these 23ghey mods that nobody plays or arent even released , or simply mods copying after whats popular.

I wouldnt say deathballs gay simply because of the fact that its not released to the us yet.
check your link.
The star wars mod sounds cool but I dont see it lifting 2k3 out of its ashes.
ww2 is overdone, the thing thats so great about ut is that its UNREAL!
bf1942 will stomp mudholes in these real life 2k3 mods.

unwheel:haha: :up: yea good 1 bro :rolleyes:

If You See Gay, if you had the IQ to acctually look out on you 'opinions', you would notify that your post just dousent just make you look stupid, it's also wrong.

who looks stoopid?
plz remeber im the flamemaster next time you call me gay:sour:

Lets take a deep breath and try to make out waht you are trying to say...

What are you talking about DeathBall not being out in the US?
Its a DL'able MOd...

CS is a lot PLAYED MOD cuz why?
Maybe you should start to acctually THINK. Like we all know, many computers cannot handle UT2003. Thats why ppl at the stores go "dammit, i have to upgrade my gfx card to play this!" And an exeption to that is ofcourse CS, since it goes on a grafics engine that 4 years old. So maybe you can understand that seeing CS is cheap and it dousent require alot of good hardware.

So 'flamemaster' flame me back plz.

[legacy-DuSt0fF]

http://maddox.xmission.com/crybaby.gif

:rolleyes:

[legacy-Happy_Hamburger]

I wish people will learn that UT2003 will never be as populer as UT1 would of been, regardless of how much time you will give it

I think you can safetly say that CTF, DM, BR, DDOM are going to stay the same, dead gametype when UT2004 comes out, maybe the vehicle gametypes will suit UT2003 gameplay better, because DM, and CTF sure doesnt.

[legacy-moppel]

Originally posted by Happy_Hamburger
I wish people will learn that UT2003 will never be as populer as UT1 would of been, regardless of how much time you will give it

You really must have a miserable life if you wish such bs. :rolleyes:

[legacy-Happy_Hamburger]

Originally posted by moppel
You really must have a miserable life if you wish such bs. :rolleyes:

Where does it say I wish that?, im just facing the truth

[legacy-moppel]

Originally posted by Happy_Hamburger
Where does it say I wish that?
I mean your wish that people will learn blablabla. Why do you wish that? Doesn't make sense. But it seems to give you a charge. :rolleyes:

And btw, you have beaten that poor dead horse about how much you hate UT2003 so many times, and instead of playing your beloved UT1 you just go on b*tching and b*tching and b*tching... boy you don't have a life, do you? Loser.

[legacy-CaptainZap]

Originally posted by frogger187
rubbish....and TTM = teh suxor

Good one. I couldn't agree more. :D :up:

[legacy-Happy_Hamburger]

Originally posted by moppel
I mean your wish that people will learn blablabla. Why do you wish that? Doesn't make sense. But it seems to give you a charge. :rolleyes:

And btw, you have beaten that poor dead horse about how much you hate UT2003 so many times, and instead of playing your beloved UT1 you just go b*tching and b*tching and b*tching... boy you just don't have a life, do you? Loser.


Personal insults in a debate just proves that you dont understand what the thread is about, as you obviously haven’t got a clue what your talking about, please feel free to click the X on the top right hand corner of IE

[legacy-moppel]

Originally posted by Happy_Hamburger
Personal insults in a debate just proves that you dont understand what the thread is about, as you obviously haven’t got a clue what your talking about, please feel free to click the X on the top right hand corner of IE
How about you getting a clue. Go play your UT1 if you love it so much. Why do you come here? Just to piss off people! Seems the only way to bring some glamour into your life, loser. I'm so fed up with you, so will you pretty please get a job and get lost. Go annoy someone else.

[legacy-Happy_Hamburger]

Originally posted by moppel
How about you getting a clue. Go play your UT1 if you love it so much. Why do you come here? Just to piss off people! Seems the only way to bring some glamour into your life, loser. I'm so fed up with you, so will you pretty please get a job and get lost. Go annoy someone else.

Did you even bother reading my post?

Why do you think Iv come here?, because I tend to think the game is alright, so I give feedback to the devs (DE and Epic) of what areas they can improve.

I really hate repeating myself on this matter, forums are for feedback, its pointless just giving them positive feedback, otherwise they wouldnt know where to improve in the game, so your wrong there (as usual)

Wrong yet again about the job, yes I do have a job, and im working shifts, im working 6pm-3am today.

If your that fed up with me, please feel free putting me on ignore, thats what the feature is for, I feel highly amused that I piss people off because they dont agree with me, pathetic if you ask me

Anyway we are both going offtopic now, after reading this post, I expect that im on ignore

[legacy-moppel]

You come here to convince everyone how much UT2003 sucks in comparison to UT1. You just stated that yourself. So who the hell do you think you are? ffs, the people who enjoy UT2003 are right to do so, and they don't need your patronizing.

[legacy-Raz]

Happy_Hamburger is just making a point...

You dont have to flame him for that.

[legacy-Scoshi_Tiger]

Originally posted by DuSt0fF


:rolleyes:

Am i detecting some HC withdrawal?

:D

[Magwa]

The people that expected a somewhat simalar sequel to UT1 have the right to be upset about this game as it is a joke when you look at the gameplay....i KNow it has all been said before but i will say it again fix the players model size ,fix the way the players move,(make it a option for all the bean jumpin moves),fix the sound!!!!!!,put in weapon sounds from UT1 and also get rid of the static meshes in places they do NOT belong (cause they slow down gameplay,and adjust the game speed ....leave the weapons alone they are just weapons and you get used to it ,If they did all of this (even in a mod) you would get back thousands of players online.....JUST MY Opinion.....but it is my story i will tell it like i want.....

[legacy-danseko]

Yeah!

Let me just add that my original post was a sort of answer to
the "UT2003 is a flop"-thread.

The point is, this forum is full of:

1) superduper-fans who won't listen to anything and ALWAYS
will flame it down if it's even remotely negative.
2) megahaters who will always see UT2003 as unplayable
without playing the game at all.


So let me conclude:

- I am not a hater, or a fanboy (most of you thought I was a
hater, nice brainwork there).

- The fanboys proved themselves as the brainless, predictable
suckers they've always been by flaming down this thread and
hardly taking anything I wrote into account.


My opinion on Epic is this:

Epic has done patches and a bonus pack, YES, but they've made
a lot of changes (like weakening the shock rifle) inspired by
this community and all of it's mindless ranters.

I'm not saying Epic haven't worked hard enough, but they have
simply been to arrogant and put too much trust in their game
developing skills in stead of listening to *GAMERS*.

The modding/mapping community have a professional editor and
a $1M contest, while features for actual gamers, like
weapon/game statistics, visibility features, warmup options, IRC
reporting, admin features, etc, has been left up to the pro
community to make themselves.


Shameful! :down:

[legacy-Happy_Hamburger]

Couldnt agree more

Epic should hire Pakman !

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by Happy_Hamburger
Couldnt agree more

Epic should hire Pakman !

They should hire Pakman, fire their game testing staff and include
some pro gamers who know what a good gameflow should feel
like, and what features will be appreciated by gamers.

..and rotate their attitude just about 180 degrees... :X

[legacy-Soulless Puppet]

lol.....thats not gonna happen.

[legacy-omg OMG]

Originally posted by danseko
The modding/mapping community have a professional editor and
a $1M contest, while features for actual gamers, like
weapon/game statistics, visibility features, warmup options, IRC
reporting, admin features, etc, has been left up to the pro
community to make themselves.


I always thought it was the modding/mapping community, using the "professional editor", who made all those nice features - and many more - for the (pro and non-pro) gamers... :rolleyes:

[legacy-moppel]

Originally posted by danseko
I'm not saying Epic haven't worked hard enough, but they have
simply been to arrogant and put too much trust in their game
developing skills in stead of listening to *GAMERS*.

Why would they listen to a bunch of loud but nonetheless clueless *GAMERS* who have proven all along that they don't know **** about game design? Listening to such *GAMERS* would be just as pointless as watching infants hop up and down, the difference being that the infants are probably going to act mature some day.

[legacy-S0undwav3]

rotate their attitude 180 degrees?
So, I guess that would make them 3D Realms?
:confused:

Man moppel, calm down.
You're a couple posts away from getting a heart attack at this pace.
:eek:
I do agree with ya though.
Not only is it the 'pros', but there seems to be a new major complaint about the game every couple of months.
There is no governing body to force a standard.....except Epic.
Problem is though, when one thing is done, it may be to someone's liking but another person totally hates the change.

Just an observation, but the only things really in agreement by the vast majority of the community is better maps and a fix for the sound issues.

[legacy-Happy_Hamburger]

Originally posted by danseko
They should hire Pakman, fire their game testing staff and include
some pro gamers who know what a good gameflow should feel
like, and what features will be appreciated by gamers.

..and rotate their attitude just about 180 degrees... :X

I cant see that happening :)

I think that they should employee a couple of new testers though, one that posts on this board, and somebody whos a pro, then you will get a casual gamer and pro gamer point of view, and then everyone will be happy \o/

[legacy-moppel]

Originally posted by Happy_Hamburger
I think that they should employee a couple of new testers though, one that posts on this board, and somebody whos a pro
Yeah. And while we're at it, why not make Saddam and Osama members of the peace nobel price committee?

[legacy-Soulless Puppet]

Originally posted by moppel
Listening to such *GAMERS* would be just as pointless as watching infants hop up and down, the difference being that the infants are probably going to act mature some day.

LOL

[Mysterial]

Originally posted by danseko
I'm not saying Epic haven't worked hard enough, but they have
simply been to arrogant and put too much trust in their game
developing skills in stead of listening to *GAMERS*.


YES! OF COURSE! Epic shouldn't put trust in their own skills, which have got them several bestseller games and millions of dollars in the bank! They should listen to "pros" who have never wrote, designed, nor shipped a product in their entire lives!

:rolleyes:


Originally posted by Happy_Hamburger
I think that they should employee a couple of new testers though, one that posts on this board, and somebody whos a pro, then you will get a casual gamer and pro gamer point of view, and then everyone will be happy \o/

Heh. Who says they haven't?

[legacy-Cold Dog]

Originally posted by danseko


The point is, this forum is full of:

1) superduper-fans who won't listen to anything and ALWAYS
will flame it down if it's even remotely negative.
2) megahaters who will always see UT2003 as unplayable
without playing the game at all.




Ummm, no. Not everyone is this polar. A lot of us (most?) are neither extreme. Some of us understand the strengths and the weaknesses of UT2K3 and are neither blind nor in "relentless pursuit of the truth" mode.

When the game gets harshly and wrongly criticized on its own message board, how do you think people are gonna react? They're gonna tell the idiot to STFU. Most of the time, it's just plain trolling. Why else would someone who dislikes the game hang around these forums? Are they expecting miracles?

The presentation of "the B1tch" will go a long way to getting it addressed properly. When someone says, "Epic, change this cause I don't like it" it's more than likely not gonna get changed. IMO, these are the same people who think their ideas of constructive suggestions border on the stupid and ridiculous sometimes. It's too late to make some of these wholesale changes......

I've got a few issues with the game myself, namely static meshes, maps and the demorec. I'm hoping they're gonna get better in UT2K4. In the meantime, I really get tired of reading about the games other weaknesses getting
hammered on on a daily basis.... Do you people not think Epic is aware of the issues?

All they want to do is make a game that they (Epic) think is fun. They don't have to make a game YOU think is fun.......

I get the feeling some people don't like the game at all (despite what they say) and it is really amazing why they continue to hang around......

[legacy-Kronon]

I agree with most of what danseko said. UT2003 was neither a flop nor a success. I just wish Epic have learnt their lesson by now, and will design the game for teamplay and competitions, instead of eyecandy and mod making.

/Kronon

[legacy-DuSt0fF]

Originally posted by Scoshi_Tiger
Am i detecting some HC withdrawal?

:D


HEY! YOU! GET BACK TO YOUR POST! WTF! :mad:

yes, its finally back I can stop posting neurotically here and resume it there :cry:

[legacy-If you see kay]

Originally posted by Magwa
The people that expected a somewhat simalar sequel to UT1 have the right to be upset about this game as it is a joke when you look at the gameplay....i KNow it has all been said before but i will say it again fix the players model size ,fix the way the players move,(make it a option for all the bean jumpin moves),fix the sound!!!!!!,put in weapon sounds from UT1 and also get rid of the static meshes in places they do NOT belong (cause they slow down gameplay,and adjust the game speed ....leave the weapons alone they are just weapons and you get used to it ,If they did all of this (even in a mod) you would get back thousands of players online.....JUST MY Opinion.....but it is my story i will tell it like i want.....
right on
Id change the weapons tho they prolly will look better being that the charachter size is increased.
Right now the insta is as big as the models!
I think they reduced the model size in mid production to make the maps be able to handle the double jump....only reason i can see
But they didnt change the maps,weapons or anything else,,,attal.
Coming from 3+ yrs of ut1 this model reduction really bugged me the most about the game.
Also the moves though more complex are actually easier to hit Its not near as fluid as ut1.
Ive seen shots that would be totally imposible to hit in ut1 get hit every few seconds in 2k3
I think that has to do with air control tho.
I just want to see someone make a classic ut mod, just the basic ut1 game converted for the contest.
Then let ut1 modders mappers take it from there
I guarentee it would be as big as ut was in its prime
Then all ut pro2kgheyers will see how much better of a game ut1 is,graphics aside.
Also its not about the pc being able to handle play
Look how many copys epic sold.
Its just cs has better more addictive gameplay
cs is practically free to everybody online(kazza)
And cs allways has a ton of full servers to choose from
You guys can keep 2k3 and we can have our mod
All we want is the purdy:bulb:
oh and support and cheatprotection you know all the good things about 2k3:o

[Mysterial]

Originally posted by Kronon
I agree with most of what danseko said. UT2003 was neither a flop nor a success. I just wish Epic have learnt their lesson by now, and will design the game for teamplay and competitions, instead of eyecandy and mod making.

/Kronon

I don't think that Epic wants to make a game that would only sell 5,000 or so copies.

[legacy-DrSinister69]

Originally posted by danseko
It's so funny to see the fanatic anti-UT2003'ers and pro-UT2003ers
come with their extreme/over-the-top "this gaem sukx and is a
total flopp" or the fans' "this game is a success, everybody loves
it (and those who don't, shut the f*ck up or we'll stone you to death!!!)"


Let's be realistic here:


For one, this game was far from the expectations of the hype
one year ago, I was part of the hyped crowd myself. The expected
flubber tech, the "e-sport" angle which made us expect a far more
"gamer"-oriented product, etc, and the expected merging of
players from CS, Q3, etc.
No, this never happened, and yes, Epic's total lack of respect
for gamers and yearlong UT players, resulting in what with
TTMs help ended up as just "OK" gameplay, was extremely disappointing.


However, this game has sold a lot, and is undoubtedly, sponsorships
included, from Epic's point of view an economical success.

And there are more than enough gamers who enjoy it too:
UT2003 is in the top 10 of CSports.net's most played online
games and is probably secured a place in gaming history.

I play & enjoy it every day, and (of course) want as many as possible to play it.


Lastly, I want to review Epic as a developing team:
They made UT2003 without consulting a testcrowd consisting of
gamers/fans, which resulted in TTM having to save the whole game.

Epic seems more fascinated with the modding and mapping
community than with the actual gamers, last seen in this ridicoulus
Nvidia contest. How about spending some of that cash to build
up the actual f*cking gaming community? Idiots.

These, and a whole list of other things Epic have done (U2
*cough*), has given them a horrible reputation among gamers,
and is undoubtedly going to impair Epic's income potential the
next three or so years, first seen flopping with U2, and probably
again with UT2004.


Epic shmepic - let's hope they can get it back into a professional
attitude some day, because we all love the Unreal franchise;
dodging and the shock combo - gaming gems.


So.. was UT2003 a disappointment IRL to the hype? Yes.
Was it a flop? No.
Was it a success? No.
Does it matter to discuss this when Epic don't give a sh't anyway?
NO.

So let's just play the game; all over it's become better than UT ever was.


WTF is Epic supposed to give a sh*t about? They support the game with patches and bonus packs, and I have zero problems running the game, i'm happy. If they didn't release patches and bonus packs I would say they don't care about the game at all.

Seems like everybody wants something for nothing.

[legacy-FLAGEL]

Originally posted by moppel
Yeah. And while we're at it, why not make Saddam and Osama members of the peace nobel price committee?

You were banned, STAY BANNED! Troller.

[legacy-Cold Dog]

Originally posted by If you see kay
right on
Id change the weapons tho they prolly will look better being that the charachter size is increased.
Right now the insta is as big as the models!
I think they reduced the model size in mid production to make the maps be able to handle the double jump....only reason i can see
But they didnt change the maps,weapons or anything else,,,attal.
Coming from 3+ yrs of ut1 this model reduction really bugged me the most about the game.
Also the moves though more complex are actually easier to hit Its not near as fluid as ut1.
Ive seen shots that would be totally imposible to hit in ut1 get hit every few seconds in 2k3
I think that has to do with air control tho.
I just want to see someone make a classic ut mod, just the basic ut1 game converted for the contest.
Then let ut1 modders mappers take it from there
I guarentee it would be as big as ut was in its prime
Then all ut pro2kgheyers will see how much better of a game ut1 is,graphics aside.
Also its not about the pc being able to handle play
Look how many copys epic sold.
Its just cs has better more addictive gameplay
cs is practically free to everybody online(kazza)
And cs allways has a ton of full servers to choose from
You guys can keep 2k3 and we can have our mod
All we want is the purdy:bulb:
oh and support and cheatprotection you know all the good things about 2k3:o

The mod you want is actually a game called UT. :up:

And .... UT is down the hall........;)

[legacy-eldiablo2003]

Can somebody tell me the point of this thread please...

[Logy]

Originally posted by Mysterial
.....for fans to bash it on the HL forums just like here, regardless of whether the game is actually any good or not.

OMG!! Valve sux!! GRAPHICS > GAMEPLAY :down: :down: :down:

WTF?? Vehicles are for ***orts and n00bs!!! HALO CLONE!!! Valve is ignoring their CORE FANS@!!@! OMG!!

Stuped VAlve, maybee you should pay attention to GAEMPLAY insted of ghey ass ragdoll phisics!!!! HL > HL2 nuff said!!!!

FU Valve ur game sux and I'm going to keep posting the same idiotic bull**** on your forums until it becames true!!!!!!111

[legacy-Radeon285]

Dunno about you guys, but the game lived up to my expectations, I alsmost went nuts trying to get my hands on a copy of the game. I had 2 betas of it :bulb: There is some stuff i'd wish they hadnt changed since the betas (minigun/shockrifle sounds, ioncanon explosion), but they are just minor things that can easily be changed by anyone really. Im pretty happy with the game overall, and its getting great support........

[legacy-Cold Dog]

Originally posted by Logy
OMG!! Valve sux!! GRAPHICS > GAMEPLAY :down: :down: :down:

WTF?? Vehicles are for ***orts and n00bs!!! HALO CLONE!!! Valve is ignoring their CORE FANS@!!@! OMG!!

Stuped VAlve, maybee you should pay attention to GAEMPLAY insted of ghey ass ragdoll phisics!!!! HL > HL2 nuff said!!!!

FU Valve ur game sux and I'm going to keep posting the same idiotic bull**** on your forums until it becames true!!!!!!111

Teh crowb4r is tooo powreful!!!!111!!!


(hehe..... )

[legacy-Raz]

Originally posted by If you see kay
right on
Id change the weapons tho they prolly will look better being that the charachter size is increased.
Right now the insta is as big as the models!
I think they reduced the model size in mid production to make the maps be able to handle the double jump....only reason i can see
But they didnt change the maps,weapons or anything else,,,attal.
Coming from 3+ yrs of ut1 this model reduction really bugged me the most about the game.
Also the moves though more complex are actually easier to hit Its not near as fluid as ut1.
Ive seen shots that would be totally imposible to hit in ut1 get hit every few seconds in 2k3
I think that has to do with air control tho.
I just want to see someone make a classic ut mod, just the basic ut1 game converted for the contest.
Then let ut1 modders mappers take it from there
I guarentee it would be as big as ut was in its prime
Then all ut pro2kgheyers will see how much better of a game ut1 is,graphics aside.
Also its not about the pc being able to handle play
Look how many copys epic sold.
Its just cs has better more addictive gameplay
cs is practically free to everybody online(kazza)
And cs allways has a ton of full servers to choose from
You guys can keep 2k3 and we can have our mod
All we want is the purdy:bulb:
oh and support and cheatprotection you know all the good things about 2k3:o

WHY DONT YOU JUST GO OFF AND PLAY UT THEN?!!?!? HOLY SH*T IM PISSED!

[legacy-vhx]

Originally posted by danseko
Shameful! :down: [/B]
Wow, who is this kid? Why don't you go make a mod or a game for that matter, that people will actually like and want to play. Take money out of your own pocket, put it up as a contest. And listen to all the whiners day in and day out to what needs to be changed, here and there. Read the emails all day and take out your own time to make maps and new content in FREE packs. What, you can't do that? Its not humanly possible? Right.

Just because Epic doesn't listen to your whine all day, doesn't mean they don't listen to the *GAMERS*. If Epic actually listened to everyone and tried to do it that way, the game would be so f'd up its not even funny.

edit:

Originally posted by Raz
WHY DONT YOU JUST GO OFF AND PLAY UT THEN?!!?!? HOLY SH*T IM PISSED![/SIZE]
I know, this is stupid.
Complainers: BUT ITS NOT UT, I WANT UT w/ UPDATED GRAPHIX!@!
Others: The game wasn't suppose to be a port of ...
Complainers: NO! UT, NOW! !@!! I WANT IT TO RUN ON MEH 200MHZ MACHINE!
Others: Uh, its not possible to...
Complainers: SCREW IT! !@#! CS & Q3 OWNZ UT2003 BAHAHA IM SO COOL!@!
Others: .... right....

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by Soulless Puppet
lol.....thats not gonna happen.

Really??? :rolleyes:

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by omg OMG
I always thought it was the modding/mapping community, using the "professional editor", who made all those nice features - and many more - for the (pro and non-pro) gamers... :rolleyes:

I agree the editor is a way out of the mess, but how does that
excuse anything?

Anyway, the TTM-people are gamers, and not likely to win the
$1M prize in any way. For this compo, Epic/Nvidia obviously want
another colourful, fancy game product that's more about show
than gameplay.

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by Mysterial
YES! OF COURSE! Epic shouldn't put trust in their own skills, which have got them several bestseller games and millions of dollars in the bank! They should listen to "pros" who have never wrote, designed, nor shipped a product in their entire lives!

Hey, what the heck, I'll give you a mercy reply.
Why they should listen to gamers?
Because gamers play the game?
Gamers are the ones who actually play?

When I say gamers, I don't speak about the "pro" gamers who
play the game just to become the best UT2k3ers in the world.
I'm talking about everyone who play this game almost every day.

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by Cold Dog
I really get tired of reading about the games other weaknesses getting hammered on on a daily basis.... Do you people not think Epic is aware of the issues?

If that was addressed at me, let me say I didn't "hammer" this
game at all in my original post. Read it.
I did hammer Epic, but it was more than deserved.


All they want to do is make a game that they (Epic) think is fun. They don't have to make a game YOU think is fun.......

According to "the laws of capitalism", they do "have to" make a
game that the fans like, or go out of business.

[legacy-moppel]

Originally posted by danseko

I did hammer Epic, but it was more than deserved.

Rather, you got rid of some mental farts which Epic will generously ignore just as they do with the rest of you pityful whiners.

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by Mysterial
I don't think that Epic wants to make a game that would only sell 5,000 or so copies.

5000.. What, are you 14 years old or something?

You don't even know what my suggestions are or would be. The
only thing we know is that 25% of all servers are running a mod
(TTM) that changes and expands the game drastically.
Why do you think this is?

And how did you manage to interpret this thread as a "UT2003
sucks and must be changed"-thread when I concluded "let's just
play the game, it's far better than UT was anyway?".

I mean.. I've learnt so far that you are both stubborn and stupid.
But still...

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by moppel
Rather, you got rid of some mental farts which Epic will generously ignore just as they do with the rest of you pityful whiners.

Oh really? I'm so sad right now..
Like they haven't done all along!
TTM is the most used mod - why you think? Because the game
was perfect all along?
Here's a suggestion: Get the f*ck out of this thread, trollboy.

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by vhx
Wow, who is this kid?

Lol! What a poor attempt at patronization. I think most people
here has seen my nick before.


Why don't you go make a mod or a game for that matter, that people will actually like and want to play.

Actually, I've been along this forum long enough to hear this kind
of self-strangling argument several times.

I bought this game - how does making my own game help save the Unreal-series?
Yes, I have tried to help change UT2003 previously because many
had a hard time liking it - but if you look really, REALLY close
at my first post here, you'll find that this thread is more a
comment against whiners and diehard fanboys than anything else.

I've made several mods and I've been developing for about 15
years in addition to playing FPS games for over 3 years. Just in
case you wondered.


Just because Epic doesn't listen to your whine all day, doesn't mean they don't listen to the *GAMERS*.

If they have listened to gamers, why is TTM considered essential
with a huge portion of people who play this game daily?

PS: Again - this thread was not a whine - and for each fanboy who
claims it is, I am more convinced of this group's lack of perception..

[Logy]

Originally posted by danseko
Here's a suggestion: Get the f*ck out of this thread, trollboy.

Who's the troll, here?

You started this pointless thread with a rambling diatribe that basically can be summed up as "TTM rules! Epic sucks!"

You offered nothing constructive (or even interesting or factual, for that matter), and yet you're surprised you're getting flamed?

You say that UT2003 has "in what with
TTMs help ended up as just 'OK' gameplay" and then later contradict yourself with "So let's just play the game; all over it's become better than UT ever was."

All you are doing is highlighting the fact that you don't think very clearly.

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by Logy
Who's the troll, here?

You started this pointless thread with a rambling diatribe that basically can be summed up as "TTM rules! Epic sucks!"

Let me sum up for you what I really said:

1) Question: Was UT2003 a flop? Answer: No. But not a success either.
2) Too many aggressive whiners and fanboys in this forum
3) Epic disappointed very many people and keeps doing so
4) UT2003 kicks UT's ass now, let's just play.

But besides that, nice interpretation, "mate".


You offered nothing constructive (or even interesting or factual, for that matter), and yet you're surprised you're getting flamed?

ROFLMAO!
Surprised I'm being flamed?? In this forum??
You have got to be kidding me!


You say that UT2003 has "in what with
TTMs help ended up as just 'OK' gameplay" and then later contradict yourself with "So let's just play the game; all over it's become better than UT ever was."

The game and the gameplay - two different things..

The game - including: the environment - the public's better
attitude towards custom maps and mods - the despite everything
better graphics; TTM - all good sides of the game which weigh
up against what very many consider a weaker/messier gameplay.

So that's, technically, not a contradiction. Get it?


All you are doing is highlighting the fact that you don't think very clearly.

Nice attempt at a stinging finish there - but no - didn't quite bite.
Sorry.

[-=¤willhaven¤=-]

Originally posted by danseko
Epic seems more fascinated with the modding and mapping
community than with the actual gamers, last seen in this ridicoulus
Nvidia contest. How about spending some of that cash to build
up the actual f*cking gaming community? (...)

HELLOOOOO???

the unreal contest is a great way to bring out all the best unhired developers and reward them for their endless toiling to make maps and mods just because they love the game.

EVERYBODY is a winner with the unreal contest.

1) Epic gets publicity and sparks the community to create.
2) the creators who win get paid for their work.
3) the community as a whole gets great mods and maps as a result.
4) other game developers get to see unhired people with real talent. and theyre easy to contact and hire this way.

i was in the original unreal contest, i won second place and won two thousand dollars. it provided a HARD WORKING unhired mapper like myself with some GENEROUS reimbursement, and it provided the community with a good map. i also got various job offers because of my work on unreal and unreal tournament maps.

epic is being extremely generous with this contest (im not 100% sure theyre fronting the money or if its atari)... and it WILL spark the community.

saying anything else is flat out wrong.

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by willhaven
HELLOOOOO???

the unreal contest is a great way to bring out all the best unhired developers and reward them for their endless toiling to make maps and mods just because they love the game.

EVERYBODY is a winner with the unreal contest.

Right. I'm not saying the contest is a bad thing in itself.
And the bonus pack was great stuff from both Epic and DE, they
haven't done all bad stuff!

BUT:
From all the people who bought UT2003, who upgraded their gfx
cards and gave Nvidia & Epic these $1M which they felt they could
spend freely -
I'd say about 99.9% of these just wanted to play the game.

To be honest I haven't ever seen Epic even trying to
comment the FPS-fans playing UT2003 - I haven't even seen Epic
acknowledge that there is such a group.

Communication with the guys who burn off most playing hours
with this game would be a start.

And maybe Epic should be more humble with UT2004, maybe they
should try to please people with gameplay and gaming
features in stead of just throwing in more fancy stuff.

[-=¤willhaven¤=-]

from what ive noticed... epic almost always listens to community outcry when its necessary

ive been following since unreal 1 and been posting my own concerns and feature ideas for a long long time... and seriously, most of what ive wanted to see has been done. sometimes i (and others that think like i do) want something fixed... sometimes its fixed in the next patch. sometimes we want new features. and sometimes that happens fast... sometimes it takes months

but epic listens...

people cried about not enough hardcore maps... they focus on hardcore maps (especially DE). people have wanted voice chat for YEARS and it will be in UT2004. people wanted the skaarj in the game, theyre back with UT2004 as well. people wanted vehicles and assault, theyve got it in UT2004.

dont tell me they dont listen. and keep in mind, they and DE arent giant companies with 100 workers apeice. they cant do everything on command. :)

and as far as i know... epic DID bring in some hardcore UT clanners to play UT2K3. im not totally sure but i do believe this was the case.

[Logy]

Originally posted by danseko
Let me sum up for you what I really said:

1) Question: Was UT2003 a flop? Answer: No. But not a success either.
2) Too many aggressive whiners and fanboys in this forum
3) Epic disappointed very many people and keeps doing so
4) UT2003 kicks UT's ass now, let's just play.

But besides that, nice interpretation, "mate".

Ooh, a "stinging finish" right at the start! Putting "mate" in quotes really lets me know you're being sarcastic! Thanks!

Let's address your so-called points, though, shall we?

1) Your opinion. Nothing more than an opinion, yet you are trying to fob it off as a fact from on high.

2) True. Unfortunately, you fall into the former category.

3) Epic disappointed YOU and several other whiners, who wouldn't be happy if Epic sent you free hookers and pizza every day for the rest of your life. The fact that you actually said things like "Epic's total lack of respect for gamers and yearlong UT players" shows that you are completely out of touch with reality.

Let's talk about things Epic changed or added in UT2003, at the request of the players, and then try and tell me that they are the "don't-give-a-sh*t-about-the-core" developers.


incresed secondary shock projectile speed
decreased RL ammo
increased mini damage and ammo
decreased flak secondary ROF
increased link primary projectile size
added centered weapon
added smaller visible weapons option
added "pipedweaponswitch" command
decreased pick-up sizes
decreased fog on some maps
added brighter team skins
added custom announcer support
added custom crosshair support


That's just off the top of my head. You could probably comb the release notes and find even more stuff.

Oh, yeah, there's also the free bonus packs. We all know how every company out there releases several hundred megabytes of new content FOR FREE.

If only more developers were this disrespectful. :up:

Hell, EA won't even put in a joystick deadzone adjustment for BF1942. And they charged money for what was basically a bonus pack.

The reason you're pissed at Epic is because they didn't listen to YOUR suggestions to sooth YOUR ego. Boo fricking hoo. Maybe if you design and develop a couple of highly successful games, your ideas will have some clout. Until then, get in line with the rest of the screaming masses.

4) If this was your point, then why did you even bother typing all the other crap?

Answer: You thought that by ending an up note, you could somehow be considered "objective" and that your rant wouldn't be seen for what it is -- pointless whining.


The game and the gameplay - two different things..

The game - including: the environment - the public's better
attitude towards custom maps and mods - the despite everything
better graphics; TTM - all good sides of the game which weigh
up against what very many consider a weaker/messier gameplay.

So that's, technically, not a contradiction. Get it?


That, technically, is a half-assed attempt to salvage your faulty rhetoric.

So the gameplay is worse, but the game is better?

Gameplay IS the game. Isn't that what everyone has been saying for so long?

But now you're backpedaling on that in an attempt to give your last point credibility, despite the fact that it doesn't jibe with anything else you've said.

I noticed you also backpedaled on some of your criticism of Epic as well, after editing your post. Did you think that people would believe that you were objective if you removed the word "idiot"?




Nice attempt at a stinging finish there - but no - didn't quite bite.
Sorry.

I'm sorry you perceived that as an attempted insult. I was just being truthful. You don't think very clearly. Hence this thread.

[Magwa]

Originally posted by Raz
WHY DONT YOU JUST GO OFF AND PLAY UT THEN?!!?!? HOLY SH*T IM PISSED!

Raz get a grip why would you even care a single lick about what i think????????on second thought get a life ..i don,t care if you like the game or not i am just posting how i feel about it ......you know you can get glad in the same pants you get mad in...try it ,it won,t hurt........and it is obvious i am not the only one who feels this way......but really chill man it is just a game.....:)))

[Ultron]

Wow Logy! I haven't seen this much ownage since...well...I just haven't. Great arguements! :D

[legacy-EntropicLqd]

Originally posted by danseko
So let's just play the game; all over it's become better than UT ever was. [/B]

My tastes dictate that UT > UT2K3. The only thing I like about UT2K3 is Invasion.

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by Logy
Ooh, a "stinging finish" right at the start! Putting "mate" in quotes really lets me know you're being sarcastic! Thanks!

Yes, you did seem like the kind of guy who needed everything
spoonfed. No problem.


Let's address your so-called points, though, shall we?

1) Your opinion. Nothing more than an opinion, yet you are trying to fob it off as a fact from on high.

Ok, "boy genius".
Did I ever say it was anything else than my opinion? Would
you really, really think anyone writes in a forum with
anything else than their opinion?

And what you say above is again, your opinion, which you
try to fob off as a fact.
I recommend trying to argument against my opinion then:

A sequel with incredible publicity potential (far above UT's) which
ends up less played than it's predecessor. Any angles on that one?


2) True. Unfortunately, you fall into the former category.

Sure, I guess that's why my initial post sums up with this quote:
So let's just play the game; all over it's become better than UT ever was.


Let's talk about things Epic changed or added in UT2003, at the request of the players, and then try and tell me that they are the "don't-give-a-sh*t-about-the-core" developers.


incresed secondary shock projectile speed
decreased RL ammo
...
added custom crosshair support


How about these features having been included from day 1?
Why should people who know what an FPS should be like, have
to yell on top of another to change the game like we have in the
past months?

And how about:
* an ingame remote admin tool
* weapon stats
* votings
* irc reporting
* built-in clan and match management
* visibility options
* warmup options
* optimization options

All of these have had to be implemented by gamers themselves,
and had been expected in the complete product.

The gameplayflow is very hard to agree upon, this has to be set
by the developer, so we can't fix that - even though very many
agree it should be changed.
Anyway, we have TTM, and misc. "tweaks"-files now used a lot
which set the complexity of projectiles etc. for optimization, we
also have maps like DM-Campgrounds2003-LE.
That helps a lot. And for my part, UT2003 is far better than UT
because of these changes.

So - I get it, from your point of view, Epic has done an excellent
job, problem is, just like Epic, you just can't see it from our point
of view, and have no interest in doing so.

Until you actually know what I'm talking about, you really have no
place in this "discussion", which wasn't supposed to be a
discussion at all.


Oh, yeah, there's also the free bonus packs. We all know how every company out there releases several hundred megabytes of new content FOR FREE.

Yep, great work, however the built-up distrust to Epic led to
almost none of the bonus maps being used.


Gameplay IS the game. Isn't that what everyone has been saying for so long?

Gameplay - as in control, weapon, confrontation-flow - is a huge
part of the game (which in very very many people on this forums
opinion has been down-prioritated by Epic) but the game as
a whole (maps, tweaks, user crowd) can weigh this up.


But now you're backpedaling on that in an attempt to give your last point credibility

:rolleyes:

To tell someone "now you're having trouble in discussion, now
you're backing down" is a typical forum trick. I've meant what I
mean for months, and this lame ranting doesn't affect that
position at all.

But nice try. You also try the same later down your post, which
shows again you are still on this preteen mental stage where
you have to humiliate your opponents with words in order to win
a discussion. That's a bit sad.


I noticed you also backpedaled on some of your criticism of Epic as well, after editing your post. Did you think that people would believe that you were objective if you removed the word "idiot"?

It was "idiots", as a matter of fact, and I removed it because I
wanted the actual point to get through. That doesn't mean I'm
still not annoyed with Epic and their excellent "priorities"..

[Magwa]

Good argument guys but what about all the things not in the game that were in the original???????address that please...
like good sound,voice packs,a decent sniper rifle,gamespeed,option to turn off the jumpin beeny weeny moves,decent skins with the ability to change faces and skin combos ....fast paced no static mesh hangup gamplay...decent CTF maps weapon sounds that really sound like weapons,i mean like the insta rifle sounds like you are playing asteroids..it sucks.
U windows these are just a few of the things missing in this the sequel..why????would it be so hard to make a add on mode to UT 2003 then all Ut fans can play the game they want and still have to buy the Ut series ......no muss no fuss......

[Ultron]

Will's right, the pro gaming community was consulted before the game was released.

This game is a lot more polished than UT was when it first came about, because Epic and DE learned from the mistakes of the first game. While 2k3 isn't perfect, it's a tighter package out of the box. And the patches and bonus packs have helped. And still, just like UT and a lesser extent Unreal, the community can contribute to the expansion and fine tuning of this game. The Unreal community has more maps than any other game series ever. They've pioneered the use of mutators, or mini-mods as well.

[legacy-S0undwav3]

Magwa, I do agree with ya on the sound issues, as well as the sh1tty maps......much like the majority of the community acknowledges.

Things such as the new jumps and sniper rifle should be left as a standard IMO.
Now, if you or someone else wants to mod them and use them, go ahead by all means.
Look at what the competitive community has been able to accomplish with TTM.

Skins and weapons sounds I deeply agree with you.
Uwindows.....yeah I prefer it over the current GUI, but that doesn't really affect me. As long as I'm able to select my character and configure my controls, I can care less about the UI.

[legacy-Dickson Gracie]

Nerds.

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by Ultron
Will's right, the pro gaming community was consulted before the game was released.

This is the first time I've ever heard anything like that!
I can't imagine any "pro" who would approve UT2k3 the way it
was at release time, and I've never heard anyone who did either.

At IRC, the disappointment was heavily evident when the demo
was released. All the UT2k3-related channels went from 100+
chatters to half in a matter of days.


This game is a lot more polished than UT was when it first came about, because Epic and DE learned from the mistakes of the first game.

You're the first person I've ever heard say that as well!

Epic indicated a two week (or more) test period after the demo
release, where people would be able to send in gameplay tweak
suggestions.
This never happened, the actual game was released shortly
after the demo. UT2k3 in the first weeks was buggy, unbalanced, slow, and suspiciously similar to the l34ks.

Did UT lack demorec-support, spectating, mouse sens config,
etc etc etc at release time? Was UT that slow with contemporary
PCs?

UT2k3 - yes - has been tweaked now, but the gameplay remains
virtually unchanged. Yes, I know TTM isn't very popular at this
forum, but most of the remaining community now put their trust
in TTM and other gamers/developers to make maps and fix
problems.


Also, comparing UT2k3 to UT at release-time is wrong. In 2002,
FPSes had become household names and people naturally have
higher expectations to the online gaming aspect.

Meaning:
You can't use developers or friends and family for product testing
in this case. People now expect rock solid, quality products in the
FPS genre. As you will see with Halflife II / Doom III.


Yes, UT2k3 as a total, is now definitively a better game than UT, but that's no thanks to Epic.

Epic's total lack of communication with gamers is evident when
they do stuff like release "brightskins" and centered weapons
several months after TTM was released.
They're not even "slightly behind" the gamers' desires,
they're several months behind.

[-=¤willhaven¤=-]

Originally posted by danseko
How about these features having been included from day 1?
Why should people who know what an FPS should be like, have
to yell on top of another to change the game like we have in the
past months?

And how about:
* an ingame remote admin tool
* weapon stats
* votings
* irc reporting
* built-in clan and match management
* visibility options
* warmup options
* optimization options

All of these have had to be implemented by gamers themselves,
and had been expected in the complete product.


as far as i remember, the company that was contracted to handle the stats for UT2K3 caved in and disappeared and left Epic hanging. stats are supposed to be in-order now. i wouldnt be surprised if theyre included in the next patch... or at least in the patch that synchs everything up with UT2004

and what do you mean by:
* irc reporting
* visibility options
* warmup options
* optimization options

none of these options make any sense to me...

visibility options? warmup options(you mean a botmatch)? optimization options(you mean being able to turn the detail down, adjusting netspeed)?

[-=¤willhaven¤=-]

Originally posted by danseko
UT2k3 in the first weeks was buggy, unbalanced, slow, and suspiciously similar to the l34ks.

:haha::haha::haha::haha:
i hope it was similar to the leaks... ITS THE SAME GAME. by the time everyone around here was getting banned for getting the leak, the game was almost finished. maps were finished, gameplay was in place, all they were doing was smoothing things out.

UT2K3 is still slightly slow on my machine... but then again, i bought my PC in december 2000

[legacy-S0undwav3]

....uhhh....TTM is an excellent mod, but I wouldn't really call weapons stats, bright skins, and hitsounds a drastic change in gameplay....just me though.
I use it, but can just as easily play without it.

They DO however need to get some good maps.
:D

Though, saying UT2k3 is better than UT no thanks to Epic is sorta....:confused: .....:weird:
Yes, there were a sh1tload of bugs from the rushed released, but UT2k3 is better than UT in my eyes because of the gameplay advancements; new mobility, actual weapon balance, actually having 'defense'(shield).


And as it's been mentioned already, the same 'BS' that's going on in these forums will happen to all the upcoming popular FPSs.
No matter how good they may actually be.

[legacy-Kronon]

About fixing patches and smaller issues, Epics (especially Steves and Jacks) work are commendable. They have really listened to the complaints and often provided very good solutions.

But this is not the problem. I think the problem is that Epic needs to reevaluate their focus. This whole notation gameplay=eyecandy has certainly proved to be just as wrong as most of us knew it would be.

UT2004 seems to be a step in the right direction, with more teamplay oriented features like UTV and voice-com in the game. Other things that I would like to see is ingame-rating, to enable rating-filters on servers so that truly new players can play equal opposition.

If they also manage to make atleast 5 good maps for each gametype, UT2004 could be the game we all wanted UT2003 to be. But this is not going to happen as long as they focus on eyecandy and modmaking, no matter how much cash you earned on your maps willhaven.

/Kronon

[Mysterial]

Originally posted by Kronon
But this is not the problem. I think the problem is that Epic needs to reevaluate their focus. This whole notation gameplay=eyecandy has certainly proved to be just as wrong as most of us knew it would be.


ROFL. If Epic was going for gameplay=eyecandy they would have directly ported UT with new fancy graphics. And you all would right now be *****ing about how spammy and camper-filled it is.

Instead, Epic worked hard on gameplay, bringing you far less spammy, more skillful weapons, reducing the success of camping with weapons like the lightning gun, and bringing new gameplay mechanics like double jumping and all those fancy dodges.

It's not Epic's fault that's too much for some people to handle.

[legacy-FLAGEL]

Originally posted by willhaven
and what do you mean by:
* irc reporting
* visibility options
* warmup options
* optimization options

none of these options make any sense to me...

visibility options? warmup options(you mean a botmatch)? optimization options(you mean being able to turn the detail down, adjusting netspeed)?

By reading your post I see that you have no clue about how the competitive community plays the game. You are not the only one, Epic is one of many who these words mean nothing to. I don't see any problem in you not knowing but Epic, it's their job to know.

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by willhaven
as far as i remember, the company that was contracted to handle the stats for UT2K3 caved in and disappeared and left Epic hanging. stats are supposed to be in-order now. i wouldnt be surprised if theyre included in the next patch... or at least in the patch that synchs everything up with UT2004

and what do you mean by:
* irc reporting
* visibility options
* warmup options
* optimization options

none of these options make any sense to me...

visibility options? warmup options(you mean a botmatch)? optimization options(you mean being able to turn the detail down, adjusting netspeed)?

When you have played for another couple of years and get
together with some gaming mates (in a "clan" or whatever) to
play around in leagues like hundreds of thousands around the
world, you will know what I'm talking about.

PS: If you really want the explanation, I'll explain it all, np
of course.


About stats: Yes, but how about ingame statistics? Why do we
need a web-solution for statistics? You don't want to exit UT2003
to your desktop and go to a slow website! You want to check out
your statistics straight after/between games! :)

TTM fixes some nice weapon/item statistics, ingame (you see it
below the scorelist at the F1-button). They don't do rankings for now

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by Kronon
About fixing patches and smaller issues, Epics (especially Steves and Jacks) work are commendable. They have really listened to the complaints and often provided very good solutions.

But this is not the problem. I think the problem is that Epic needs to reevaluate their focus. This whole notation gameplay=eyecandy has certainly proved to be just as wrong as most of us knew it would be.

Yes. For one, I think they should supply both the more distant,
bigmap, lurking gametype which UT2003 is now, and a faster,
more "arcade"-like game like UT. We only need two modes.

The UTClassic mutator is a bad example of this.


UT2004 seems to be a step in the right direction, with more teamplay oriented features like UTV and voice-com in the game. Other things that I would like to see is ingame-rating, to enable rating-filters on servers so that truly new players can play equal opposition.

We're thinking in the same direction, Kronon.

Personally, I would have loved to see match-arranging and
ranking in an Epic league, with monthly 1on1, 2on2 and 4on4
cups, and clan registering and management.

They could definitively use banners to finance it, I don't care, as
long as it would work, and would be ingame.
I'm from EU and have to use Clanbase, and it gets slower and
slower with each passing week.

Remote ingame admin interface, more demorec and publishing/
reporting-options (UTV is of course a step in this direction) etc.
This was what I hoped UT2003 would be, but then Epic decided
to take a christmas holiday.

Yes, I hope UT2004 will be a better game, but I am not going to
dedicate myself to that hope like I did with UT2003, and be
disappointed again. For now, UT2004 looks a bit tame to me.
But let's hope.

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by FLAGEL
By reading your post I see that you have no clue about how the competitive community plays the game. You are not the only one, Epic is one of many who these words mean nothing to. I don't see any problem in you not knowing but Epic, it's their job to know.

Yes, or it's not their job, but I'm very disappointed they don't
know all the wonderful stuff people are doing with their game.

People have built up incredible motor and coordination skills
around UT and UT2003, they make skill videos dedicated to the
game, etc.


Epic have disappointingly ignored this universe, and this
competition is another sign of that.

Can you imagine what would happen if they announced a $1M
game contest?? Giving prizes to funniest demo-recording, the top
ranked player, top ranked team/clan, etc..

People would be flocking around UT2003 like flies!

[-=¤willhaven¤=-]

thats what these other competitions are about

doesnt fatality LIVE off of UT2K3 and Q3 tournaments?

[legacy-vhx]

Originally posted by danseko
Did I ever say it was anything else than my opinion? Wouldyou really, really think anyone writes in a forum with
anything else than their opinion?
No you didn't, but you act like your opinion is fact and no one elses opinions have merit, if you can't respect others opinions don't bother posting anymore.

Originally posted by danseko
Until you actually know what I'm talking about, you really have no place in this "discussion", which wasn't supposed to be a
discussion at all.
Uh, no one knows wtf your talking about, you are bashing epic but at the same time saying UT2003 is better than UT but also saying that UT2003 didnt live up to the UT standards? Sorry but this makes anyone confused.


Originally posted by danseko
Yep, great work, however the built-up distrust to Epic led to
almost none of the bonus maps being used.
And you just pulled that out of your ass, tons of people play invasion and the bonus pack maps, wow it sounds like you haven't played since the bonus packs came out :rolleyes:

[legacy-chimp_spanner]

Hi all!! New here. First post. And it's just my humble opinion, so be gentle ;)

Perhaps there are some underlying factors in UT2k3 that only a 'hard core' gamer with class, finess...and far too much time on his/her hands, would notice. But personally? I think it's an amazing FPS. To hold the very lowest opinion of it would be to concede that it's at least as good as UT1, and UT1 was and still is a monster of a game which puts many a good shooter to shame. But it's not just as good as UT1, it's better. It has passable AI, decent weapon balance, stunning graphics that are actually functional to the game (the increased complexity of the architecture in most levels makes for good cover - something which was hard to achieve in the boxy world of UT1). Bearing in mind my copy came in the mail this morning, and I stopped playing 10 minutes ago. I haven't played a game that long for years, and it was bloody good fun.

With regards to Epic's attitude to customers...I can't speak with too much authority here only cos I'm a little out of touch with the whole 'scene'. But I'd say the very fact they left Unreal and its inner workings so accesible to the public at large is proof that they respect the needs and wants of the people that use their software. Alot of game developers hype a game, make claims they can't deliver, you pay money for it and if you don't like something...you're stuck with it until the add on..sorry, I mean 'sequel' comes out. At least with Unreal it's pretty much a given that if there's an aspect of gameplay that warrants changing...someone out there has changed it, and there are game servers running with that change. But that's the key thing - in a game with so many variables, and such potential for expansion and modification, you can never please all the people, all of the time. Everyone's idea of what is 'balanced' will be different. It's subjective. And a game can't be produced from a subjective standpoint. True, the developers by their very nature will put their own twist on a game and bring something of their own to it, but largely they have to take their chances and steer the ship in the direction *most* of their customers want it to go. To try and incorporate everyones idea of what is 'balanced' and 'best'....well, the game would never get made would it!

I say...look at the game as a whole. Be thankful someone took the time to write all that beatiful code, leave most of it OPEN to Joe Public, and map all those beautiful..err...maps for you so you can simply install, and play....

...and subsequently moan. Not happy with it? Learn to mod, and change it. Me - I wanted to see more desert and forest battle areas. So I'm gunna learn UnrealEd (again - I knew it once, but forgot it all lol) and make the maps I want to play on. I'd download em but I'm on dialup. Dammit. Hehe

But heck, maybe that just comes from my way of approaching alot of other things. I don't hear any music I like on the radio, so I make the music I wanna hear. I am the supply AND the demand, alpha and omega, Bert and Ernie. I am also very hungry, and my post has lost steam and coherence. And for some reason..I can still hear the sound of miniguns even though I'm not playing UT.........

Disturbing.

Laters all :)

- Paul

[legacy-If you see kay]

I like pudding:cool:

[legacy-S0undwav3]

chimp_spanner, excellent first post.
:up:

[legacy-chimp_spanner]

*bows* Thank you ;) I have been known to construct valid and fair arguments from time to time.

Doesn't happen often though. AHHH!! Daddy Long Legs!

*embarks on a Killing Spree*

[Ultron]

Great post Chimp!

I think UT2k3 is a great game. I just wish there were less servers with bots, and more servers that are willing to play more stock/bonus maps. Nothing against custom maps but I think the less custom stuff the players download, the more players will be on servers. Packages are typically bigger in UT2k3 because of the larger maps and textures.

[-=¤willhaven¤=-]

Originally posted by Ultron
Great post Chimp!

I think UT2k3 is a great game. I just wish there were less servers with bots, and more servers that are willing to play more stock/bonus maps. Nothing against custom maps but I think the less custom stuff the players download, the more players will be on servers. Packages are typically bigger in UT2k3 because of the larger maps and textures.

WORD!!!

i hate to say it... but most custom maps are horrible...

AND WHO WANTS TO DOWNLOAD 20 SKIN PACKS FOR A HALF HOUR BEFORE THEY PLAY... THEN NOBODY USES THEM. ITS SO DAMN AGGRIVATING...

i usually search for pure servers :):up:

[Ultron]

I remember when Unreal netcode got good with the 220 patch, I downloaded a ton of custom maps and I was using a 33.6K modem at the time. It didn't matter to me that I was downloading these maps from the server at an abyssimally slow rate. I could keep them in cache or rename the temp files and place them in my Unreal folders. Many maps couldn't be found on Nali City but you could download them off of servers anyways.

It's not like I now hate custom maps, it's just that today a modemer isn't downloading a 300KB map or 1MB map, many of these packages, even compressed, is 3MB-20MB. Can you imagine hosting DM-2019, a 50MB map, and trying to download 25MB compressed/deferred download? Unless that server stays up all night you aren't getting that file. If you are on broadband it will still take a good amount of time.

I think really, most server admins need to keep a minimum of custom maps in the rotation (and additional packages) but a lot of people get turned off because they are downloading too much and not playing enough.

The other flipside is that too many servers play just one map, and most of them are playing the same map, typically the maps that come in the demo. Those aren't the best maps out there. Even if you filter out all the demo servers there is too many of those maps being hosted. Let the other, lesser known stock/bp maps get some play.

[legacy-EntropicLqd]

One of the things I dislike most about UT2K3 is the map sizes. They are just so damn huge. I'd love to know what's taking up all the space. I think it may even be a bug in the code somewhere.

The really weird thing is that you can build a map and it will be nice and small until you pass some "magic" point in the number of brushes, lights, and bot-paths. Suddenly - bam - your map is 10 times the size it was the last time you built it.

What's with that?

My UT Maps folder is huge. My UT2K3 Maps folder is larger and has a tenth of the number of maps in it.

[Magwa]

It does not take a (quote)>>a 'hard core' gamer with class, finess...and far too much time on his/her hands,(unquote)<<>>to be able to hear.or see for that matter,example ..you say you played UT1 then why was the water and the water sounds so good in UT1 and it is so crappy in UT 2003 in fact water is almost no exesitant?? i agree with you on the better cover issuei like the looks of the new maps BUT! i hate getting counght up on static meshes,and i hate the fact you can not explore the maps and there you are always stopped by the invisable barrier everytime you want to go to a good sniping spot .
Is it a good game YES it has many very promising ideas and for me at least it has always run very well i have never had a problem with bugs....BUT the game play is awfull it is slow and it is no fun for very longwhy is that???? because the new game moves like wall boost dodge and all the other wierd moves have changed the gameplay from fast paced to a more deliberate type play now i think alot of people like this and so it is ok and i wish them well with it BUT!! it is NOT UT either is aderenline it is plain stupid to be running around like sonic the hedgehog getting little pills...the players size is well lets say very debatable some like it and some don,t the movement is a joke watch in first person it is jerky not fluid and the sound is just plain horrible,the shock rifle combo sounds ROCKS but the primary sound like in Instagibb sounds like you are playing )atari) Asteroids....and all the voices are garbled ,you please compare all these things with UT and then let me know what you think ,and welcome to the forum it is to say the least a interesting place.....:)

[legacy-Mr Evil]

Originally posted by EntropicLqd
One of the things I dislike most about UT2K3 is the map sizes. They are just so damn huge. I'd love to know what's taking up all the space...
There are a number of things that take up lots of space:
Terrain: Takes up huge amounts of space because the heightmap, alpha layers and lightmap are not compressed. That could mean upwards of 5MB just for the terrain. Minimize this by using as small a terrain as you can (128x128 maybe) and having as few layers as you can get away with.
Uncompressed textures: I've noticed a lot of laziness when it comes to compression, with some maps having many large uncompressed textures which can take up 4MB each. Compress them (preferably to DXT1)!
Complex static meshes: Those with thousands of polys in them can be as complex as a whole UT map, and take up an appropriate amount of space. Some space can be saved here by turning off collision for each material on the mesh (only appropriate if the mesh isn't going to be touched by players, or if you put blocking volumes around it).
High-resolution sounds: Most sounds don't need to be the full 44.1kHz 16bit. Often you can get away with 11kHz 8bit, which is a big saving.
And probably other things I can't think of right now.

[Flak]

*yawn*

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by willhaven
thats what these other competitions are about

doesnt fatality LIVE off of UT2K3 and Q3 tournaments?

You're talking about skill-based 1on1 tourneys, which isn't
really my cup of tea.
And the prize amounts are far less than the $1M (!!) Nvidia and
Epic suddenly found lying around in this case.

Sure, this money could've been spent at skill-based tourneys,
but also split between "funniest demo rec" or "best UT2003-
gamevideo" and so on.

You could even give some to mappers/modders! What Epic are
suggesting, is using all of this money on mappers/modders..
and I don't agree with that at all.

I think it is distasteful, given their already horrible history of
ignoring the actual game aspect... :down:

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by vhx
No you didn't, but you act like your opinion is fact
Nice claim. Prove it!

and no one elses opinions have merit
This thread contains (not unexpected) very few "opinions", but
flame covered in opinions, directed at me, from people I have
never done anything against personally.
Do you really expect me to pay heed to the opinions
of random flamers/trolls like you?

Uh, no one knows wtf your talking about, you are bashing epic but at the same time saying UT2003 is better than UT but also saying that UT2003 didnt live up to the UT standards? Sorry but this makes anyone confused.

I'm not at all surprised you're confused. But I'll explain again:

UT2003 is better because of gamers' maps like
Campgrounds2003-LE, mods like TTM and misc nice tweaks.
And, after all, a fresher community and better gfx.


Andd you just pulled that out of your ass, tons of people play invasion and the bonus pack maps

Invasion has ~40 servers, and last I checked an average of 3
players per server, bots included..

However, I like Invasion, and I would love for it to become more
popular.. I also like a couple of the BP maps. I'm just saying it the
way it is - people who play UT2003 on a regular basis hardly play
the bonus pack maps at all. I'm not saying I like it.


, wow it sounds like you haven't played since the bonus packs came out :rolleyes:

I'm a UT2003 TDM clanleader. I play UT2003 every day with
people who also play UT2003 every day. It's a rather big
network. The following maps are played in DM:

DM-Antalus
DM-Asbestos
DM-Campgrounds2003-LE
DM-Compressed
DM-Grendelkeep-LE
DM-Ironic
DM-Osiris2

I don't know why people don't want to play DM-1on1-Mixer
from the Epic BP (I really like that map), but I'm guessing - as
said - it is related to a deep distrust with Epic.

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by chimp_spanner
Hi all!! New here. First post. And it's just my humble opinion, so be gentle ;)

Welcome to the most flaming forums you'll ever find on the planet.
You did just the right thing with your first post, commending
UT2003, just remember if you ever criticize Epic or UT2003 - and I
mean just a little bit - you'll be faced with the flamers you can see
in this thread.

I've done this many times, and it can be fun, but it's not
recommended if you want to be liked by the people here.
Not that there's any reason to be liked by them..
Just a warning. ;)


Perhaps there are some underlying factors in UT2k3 that only a 'hard core' gamer with class, finess...and far too much time on his/her hands, would notice. But personally? I think it's an amazing FPS. To hold the very lowest opinion of it would be to concede that it's at least as good as UT1, and UT1 was and still is a monster of a game which puts many a good shooter to shame. But it's not just as good as UT1, it's better.

Just the same I concluded in my first post. I like UT2003 too!

However, as you say, you're not a "hard core" gamer. If you had
been, you would've understood my position on Epic. From the
release to this competition, they've totally ignored the presence
of people who actually get hooked on games.

How often do you play UT2003, by the way?

[legacy-Mr Evil]

Originally posted by danseko
...Sure, this money could've been spent at skill-based tourneys,
but also split between "funniest demo rec" or "best UT2003-
gamevideo" and so on...
The latter two of those would fit into the 'non-interactive movie' category of the contest. Why don't you make some and enter them? The prize is quite large.

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by Mr Evil
The latter two of those would fit into the 'non-interactive movie' category of the contest. Why don't you make some and enter them? The prize is quite large.

Because I hardly expect Epic to grace game- and skill-related
videos with bonus money.
That is, they might.. but from Epic's history of respect for gamers
I don't expect them to. My optimism in this area is gone.. :)


Most probably, they want fancy videos showing off graphics and
maps, usable for commercial purposes later.
Yes, skill-vids do that as well.. but not enough, I would expect..

[legacy-Mr Evil]

Originally posted by danseko
Because I hardly expect Epic to grace game- and skill-related
videos with bonus money.
That is, they might.. but from Epic's history of respect for gamers
I don't expect them to. My optimism in this area is gone.. :)


Most probably, they want fancy videos showing off graphics and
maps, usable for commercial purposes later.
Yes, skill-vids do that as well.. but not enough, I would expect..
If you think like that then you can never achieve anything! They have stated quite clearly that commercial potential is irrelevant to the judging, and that eye-candy is not the most important factor. If you make a video which is as enjoyable to watch as any other then it stands every chance of winning. If you don't try you will never really know what may be possible...

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by Mr Evil
If you think like that then you can never achieve anything! They have stated quite clearly that commercial potential is irrelevant to the judging, and that eye-candy is not the most important factor. If you make a video which is as enjoyable to watch as any other then it stands every chance of winning. If you don't try you will never really know what may be possible...

Got to love an optimist! :D

Nah, thanks, but I don't have time for video editing, plus it doesn't
really help;

I'm annoyed Epic couldn't make a single contest based on actual
gaming aspects, when what UT2003 really needs is a lot more
players actually playing the game.

[Ultron]

Originally posted by danseko
I don't know why people don't want to play DM-1on1-Mixer
from the Epic BP (I really like that map), but I'm guessing - as
said - it is related to a deep distrust with Epic.

Maybe it has more to do with that being a tiny map? I think it's a great map. But of course Agony and Malevolence were good DM maps too and they didn't get as much play as the stock maps in UT either.

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by Ultron
Maybe it has more to do with that being a tiny map? I think it's a great map. But of course Agony and Malevolence were good DM maps too and they didn't get as much play as the stock maps in UT either.

Mixer is actually quite big (IRL to Ironic and Compressed), and
Epic have again proved they don't really know the ins and outs of
gaming, by calling it a 1on1-map.

In size, I would compare it to DM-Curse][ from UT - if you
remember that, which was frequently used for 4on4s.

No, the size doesn't matter in this case I'm afraid.
Sorry Epic, I think it's a great map, but that's how it goes when
you shoot yourself in the foot..


PS: Grendelkeep and Ironic from the DE-bonuspack have become
very popular, so it can't be the non-stockmap-issue that's the problem.

[legacy-Mr Evil]

Originally posted by danseko
Got to love an optimist! :D

Nah, thanks, but I don't have time for video editing, plus it doesn't
really help;

I'm annoyed Epic couldn't make a single contest based on actual
gaming aspects, when what UT2003 really needs is a lot more
players actually playing the game.
Got to love a pessimist! :D

I believe that there is a much broader range of modding talent than playing talent in the community, and indeed simply more modders than competetive players. Furthermore, modding potentially makes a lot of money (if one were to become a successful commercial game, it could make millions) whereas competetive gaming makes relatively little, and largely from the competitors themselves. So it makes sense to hold a modding competition.

I think you're just jealous:p. But there is plenty of time for you to learn some modding skills. Since you seem to know a lot about what makes a game fun, you should be the ideal person to create the ultimate gameplay-oriented maps, and thus stand a good chance of winning the best map category. Mapping doesn't take an awful lot of time either.

[legacy-chimp_spanner]

Crikey, this thread moved a bit faster than I thought. Let me work out who was talking to me and why, then i can reply...

'k

Magwa - your welcome for the welcome ;)

Okay, I'll concede, their decision to kinda leave out water is a little odd. Seems a waste seeing how it looks so gorgeous on the surface and then does...nothing when you climb in it. So I won't argue there. Saying that, water never played a massive part in UT for me. It was usually a way of getting from point A-B in various assault modes and other than that I can't say I ever had any massive underwater fights or anything. But that's just me.

Getting caught on static meshes, so far, has not posed much of a problem for me. I don't think it's entirely unreasonable that running face first into piping and machinery hinders progress somewhat ;) Invisible barriers...I'll concede there as well. Like on Phobos 2, you should be able to fall into space. Inexplicably you cannot. This is part of what made Phobos 1 very enjoyable.

Player size...hmmm...as you say, it's a love/hate thing. The players are a little on the small side in relation to the maps themselves, but it just makes everything seem larger than life, and I personally like that. As you say though, some like it, some don't.

With regards to fluid movement...I was just about to start a thread on this. It is not a flaw that hinders UT2k3 exclusively. I've yet to play a FPS that doesn't feel like Gran Turismo on legs. UT1 did seem to be a *bit* closer to the mark, in that it felt more like you were running...not driving. But personally I think that had more to do with view-bob, as opposed to them specifically setting out to create a true representation of humanoid movement. Perhaps they should of left it (view bobbing) in 2k3 - it would give it a far more natural feel.

Again, your point about gameplay being too slow - I think it is too fast at times. This goes back to my previous point. I think there should be two game modes - Arcade, and Realistic (or Simulation). Arcade: fast paced ideal for multiplayer action. Realistic/Simulation: Keep rate of fire and speed/motion of physics the same, but slow players movement down, restrict rate of turn, perhaps use the Karma physics engine to affect movement (running right to an edge and stopping suddenly, the body should still have momentum, for example.) I could go on and on but you get me. Again this isn't a 2k3 specific problem. Most FPS games feel like F1 on feet.

Adrenaline...another love/hate feature. I'm pretty sure there's a mod to disable adrenaline combos is there not? In either case, I think it adds a little something extra to gameplay. I think it's pretty cool being able to run in, grab the flag, and then put your glowing yellow sneakers on and pow...you're gone. But like i said, I'm pretty certain you can turn that off.


Danseko - I can't say how often I play 2k3 cos I've only had it for a day ;) When I say I'm not a hard core gamer, that doesnt' mean I haven't played my fair share. I just mean that as in I don't find the time in between work, music, life in general, to fit in hour upon hour of gaming. Not just that, it'd give me a fatass. And i don't want that :D But in either case, I know when I like a game, and I know when I don't. So it's not a case of being wowed by pretty graphics and ignoring gameplay (not saying you suggested as such btw!). I enjoy my games, but it's not a way of life or a reason to spend mounds of money on equipment for me.

[legacy-EntropicLqd]

Originally posted by Mr Evil
There are a number of things that take up lots of space:
...snipped worthy comments...
I built a map out of around 200 BSP brushes and a couple of custom static meshes. I used nothing but stock textures.

If you cut and paste all the elements within the map it into a new one and save it the total data size is less than 500K.

As soon as you "build all" the size bloats to over 5Mb.

Whatever the reason for the bloat I can't help thinking that Epic lost the plot a bit with the engine there.

[-=¤willhaven¤=-]

Originally posted by Mr Evil
There are a number of things that take up lots of space:
Terrain: Takes up huge amounts of space because the heightmap, alpha layers and lightmap are not compressed. That could mean upwards of 5MB just for the terrain. Minimize this by using as small a terrain as you can (128x128 maybe) and having as few layers as you can get away with.
Uncompressed textures: I've noticed a lot of laziness when it comes to compression, with some maps having many large uncompressed textures which can take up 4MB each. Compress them (preferably to DXT1)!
Complex static meshes: Those with thousands of polys in them can be as complex as a whole UT map, and take up an appropriate amount of space. Some space can be saved here by turning off collision for each material on the mesh (only appropriate if the mesh isn't going to be touched by players, or if you put blocking volumes around it).
High-resolution sounds: Most sounds don't need to be the full 44.1kHz 16bit. Often you can get away with 11kHz 8bit, which is a big saving.
And probably other things I can't think of right now.


lightmaps on BSP

any surfaces you dont see should be set to unlit... and uminportant surfaces you can up the lightmap size (a nubmer higher than 32) to help save space

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by Mr Evil
Got to love a pessimist! :D

I believe that there is a much broader range of modding talent than playing talent in the community, and indeed simply more modders than competetive players.

Well. As we speak there are 170.000 chatters online at Quakenet.
At least 10% of these are UT2'ers. That makes at least
17.000 people who are dedicated enough to competitive gaming
to hang out at IRC in the summer.
Believe it or not.

In other words:
There are NOT more modders than competitive players. Not in any way!
There is a huge community out there, but most of them shun this
forum like the plague. (Like the plague, I tell ya!)


Well, it's true.. :( when the anti-TTM rants raided this forum at
it's worst, most people from the competitive community were
already long gone, and after the anti-TTM flaming rubbish, most
of us just didn't bother to drop in (except me, FLAGEL and a
couple of others who hang out occasionally).

But the "competitive" community (which I like to call "gamers"
because 99.999% of us just play for fun) is huge, and far bigger
than the 10-20.000 Quakenet tells us.


I think you're just jealous:p. But there is plenty of time for you to learn some modding skills. Since you seem to know a lot about what makes a game fun, you should be the ideal person to create the ultimate gameplay-oriented maps, and thus stand a good chance of winning the best map category. Mapping doesn't take an awful lot of time either.

Hm! I've made several mutators so far so.. I guess I am a modder,
you silly muffin! :p I work as a dev'er in RL.

[legacy-vhx]

Originally posted by Magwa
It does not take a (quote)>>a 'hard core' gamer with class, finess...and far too much time on his/her hands,(unquote)<<>>to be able to hear.or see for that matter,example ..you say you played UT1 then why was the water and the water sounds so good in UT1 and it is so crappy in UT 2003 in fact water is almost no exesitant??
Uh... because it slows down the game play too much? All the weapons are sped up tons of times, in water you'd just be a sitting duck. Epic knew this and told us this a loooooong time ago.


Nice claim. Prove it!

Do you really expect me to pay heed to the opinions
of random flamers/trolls like you?
Uh, you just proved it yourself? :haha: :down:

[Magwa]

nice post and i like your idea about two modes of play arcade and realalistic....that would be a very good change anyway thanks for the intelligent answers and i guess it proves we all like different stuff:)

VHX<><> do you really think the weapons in Ut 2003 are faster than in the old game?????mabye it is me i have tried different game speeds and at 125 the game seems as close to Ut as i can find then when i get on a regular server it really seems slow .

i agree i think the snot gun is faster but the rockets and shock secondary are slower (to me) and the mini seems way slowerin either mode,LG is slower rate of fire than old sniper (but i agree with others it was to fastand to much ammo) but anyway i am trying to find the speed where it is not boring i will just keep trying Peace.

PS on the water thing it was a very big part of UT as alot of maps had waterways and large bodies of water or strategic water tanks like compressed but the main thing i was getting at was the lack of good sounds be it water or whatever hope this clears it up ....

[legacy-vhx]

Originally posted by Magwa
nice post and i like your idea about two modes of play arcade and realalistic....that would be a very good change anyway thanks for the intelligent answers and i guess it proves we all like different stuff:)

VHX<><> do you really think the weapons in Ut 2003 are faster than in the old game?????mabye it is me i have tried different game speeds and at 125 the game seems as close to Ut as i can find then when i get on a regular server it really seems slow .

i agree i think the snot gun is faster but the rockets and shock secondary are slower (to me) and the mini seems way slowerin either mode,LG is slower rate of fire than old sniper (but i agree with others it was to fastand to much ammo) but anyway i am trying to find the speed where it is not boring i will just keep trying Peace.
I see where your coming from but still the game requires a lot of dodge to escape most weapons, and you simply cannot do that underwater, 2 lightning gun shots before your half way to turn around to see whos attacking. I dunno just seems that it might piss people off to be running backwards to escape something and then u fall into water and someone just throws some rockets near the top:D

[legacy-danseko]

Originally posted by vhx
Uh, you just proved it yourself? :haha: :down:

Or maybe I was saying that you can't prove I disregard normal,
neutral posters' opinions.

However I don't really give a sh't about a persons point of view if
that persons post is 80% flame against me, 20% criticism
towards stuff I never said.
I don't count those posts as "opinions".

Oh, and I really like the way you replied to the remaining 80%
of my post.. or, wait... :rolleyes:

[legacy-Underbyte]

cant we all just be friends and play the ****in game?
http://www.geocities.com/thramerguy/sig.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/thramerguy/sig.jpg

[legacy-Happy_Hamburger]

Originally posted by Underbyte
cant we all just be friends and play the ****in game?
http://www.geocities.com/thramerguy/sig.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/thramerguy/sig.jpg

why did you just bump a 6 month old thread? :)

[legacy-X0n3r0g]

you have raised the dead!!! :eek: RUUNNNN AWAAAAYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Magwa]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by danseko

Bla bla bla end quote]

TTM saved the game ???? yeah right.....

take the bots out and then count the players ....... the rest was not bad ...TTM LMAO never used it and when i did it screwed up....

[-=¤willhaven¤=-]

no bumping necessary...